Woodfire heaters on the chopping block

Great idea. Unfortunately the emissions won’t be low enough for Barr, Rattenbury, Vassarotti, Bowen, Jack D or Phydeaux.

I’m crossing my fingers for you though 🤞

Gary,
What makes you think woodfire heating is cheaper or more affordable than the alternatives?

Chewy14,
Everything from gas, electricity, food, petrol, etc, has gone up so much in the last year or so. Collecting wood for free, or getting a permit to collect wood, is presently cheaper than gas or electricity.

Gary Stuart,
So they are cheaper if you can get “free” fuel.

Perhaps have a think about that and why it isn’t a valid comparison.

Particularly not if you are trying to apply it to how “poor” people can stay warm and how preventing the worst of the air pollution from wood heaters requires specific types of fuel and preparation of that fuel prior to burning.

“So they are cheaper if you can get “free” fuel.”

Yep, it is. I also mentioned getting a permit (which is also a cheaper alternative to gas and electricity).

To be honest Chewy14, I don’t give a rats about the pollution argument. All Australians should be able to live comfortably, including staying warm.

I’m lucky enough to be able to live very comfortably, leaving my gas heater roaring 24 hours a day during winter whilst still being able to eat and pay bills. Others, unfortunately, aren’t so lucky.

The alternative to gas and electricity heating is wood fire heating. What alternatives do you suggest?

Oh it’s Gary Stuart again! What’s the bet Gary is a climate change sceptic. So Gary tell me, how do you define “poor”. Should these “poor” people be allowed to go out and chop down trees and destroy the environment and animal habitat in the process just so they can keep warm? Let’s make it a free for all. What about all of those “rich” people trying to make a quick buck cutting down trees so that they can sell wood to the poor. Not to mention all of that environmental pollution from wood heating!

“Oh it’s Gary Stuart again! What’s the bet Gary is a climate change sceptic.”

I’m not a climate change sceptic but I am a MAN MADE climate change sceptic. Climate has, and always will, change. Been happening for 14 billion years.

“Should these “poor” people be allowed to go out and chop down trees and destroy the environment and animal habitat in the process just so they can keep warm?”

Why have you put poor in inverted commas? Don’t you think they exist? And I never said “go out and chop down trees”. I said collect wood.

“What about all of those “rich” people trying to make a quick buck cutting down trees so that they can sell wood to the poor.”

Give us an example of “all those “rich” people trying to make a quick buck cutting down trees…”?

And talking of environmental pollution – do you drive a car (ICE or electric)? Use electricity? Use a computer or mobile device? If you answered yes to any of those questions then you are a hypocrite.

Gary,
OK it seemingly needs to be spelt out for you.

The types and amounts of wood that would be required to keep “poor” people warm is far in excess of what is available for what you are calling “free” (it isn’t really free).

What you’re really advocating is for people to create even greater pollution and destroy the local environment by sourcing unsuitable wood for burning from areas that are not renewably managed.

Just because a tiny amount of people can currently source some low cost fuel, doesn’t mean that it is a cheaper solution at the scales required.

You can’t just externalise all the costs of your solution and then claim its cheaper.

Ha Ha you are so funny Gary Stuart! Gary tells us that he is not a climate change sceptic but a MAN MADE climate change sceptic, whatever that means. He then boasts that he leaves his gas heater “roaring 24 hours a day in winter” because he doesn’t “give a rats about the pollution argument”. Onya Gary!

“Ha Ha you are so funny Gary Stuart! Gary tells us that he is not a climate change sceptic but a MAN MADE climate change sceptic, whatever that means.”

Whatever that means? I literally said this: “Climate has, and always will, change. Been happening for 14 billion years.” So, in a nutshell, I don’t believe that there is such a thing as man made climate change.

“He then boasts that he leaves his gas heater “roaring 24 hours a day in winter” because he doesn’t “give a rats about the pollution argument”.”

And you’ve mashed two completely different comments of mine to try and make a point. I wasn’t boasting. I grew up in a freezing cold government house in Belco during the ‘70’s and ‘80’s. Mainly because my parents couldn’t afford to keep us warm and feed us – so they made the choice to feed us.

“Gary,
OK it seemingly needs to be spelt out for you.”

From your condescending tone I suggest you’re suffering from a lack of oxygen from sitting on your high horse. I only asked you for your suggestions to cheap alternatives to gas and electricity.

Sorry – accidentally sent an incomplete reply.

Following on from the above I decided that I would not let my children freeze during Canberra’s cold winters.

My comment about not giving a rats about pollution was in regards to Australia being a country where everyone deserves to be comfortable – whether that comfort be financial or physical (warm in winter, cool in summer).

By being aggressive towards me and my comments you have only shown that you and your kind (far left green tossers) prefer to throw insults and lies than actually having a conversation and listening to truth.

The story, if you remember, is about how more than half Canberrans want wood fire heaters phased out when, actually, less than 2,000 people were polled. Again, you and your kind would prefer that lies dictated the conversation.

Gary,
The reason for the condescending tone is because there are gas and electric heating options that are cheaper than woodheaters already.

So your attempted loaded question is moot, it’s a false dichotomy

If you actually cared about keeping “poor” people warm in the most affordable way, woodheaters are not the answer.

Personally I don’t want them banned but I do think they have limited use as a heating source when there are better options available, noting that people also often value the aesthetics of a woodheater over their functionality.

As for your critique of the poll, why do you believe 2000 people isn’t enough?

If they’ve polled a representative sample of the population, it’s easily big enough for a very high level of confidence and low margin for error. I haven’t looked at the survey design but straight numbers wouldn’t be a problem.

A comment on the survey of about 2000 people.

In principle, there is nothing wrong with a properly constructed sample survey. It will give a good guide with a known confidence band, is used all of the time by political pollsters and by the ABS for many of its surveys (rather than censuses).

This was a ‘Yoursay Community Panel’ survey. It means the responders were self-selecting among those who already are interested in handing out opinions to the government by this channel. One cannot claim it is unbiassed though nor can you say what would be a specific bias existing, if any.

To those who say “only 2000 people”, if there were a population survey and the outcome were to eliminate wood heaters, you would have no further disagreement? If you would still disagree then the “only 2000” point is pretty irrelevant; a majority of 2000 may vote to keep wood heaters yet still be wrong. Focus on health issues, just like we did with industrial pollution in the past. If they are problematic and we can act cost-effectively, then we should include them in our priorities.

Irrespective of political persuasion, everyone wants good health for their families and their children.

Below is a link to a report from the Guardian about research showing:
“Toxic air pollution particles found in lungs and brains of unborn babies” that explains: “Dirty air was already known to strongly correlate with increased miscarriages, premature births, low birth weights and disturbed brain development. But the new study provides direct evidence of how that harm may be caused. The scientists said the pollution could cause lifelong health effects.”

Who are the real smart ones – those who want to avoid the major source of pollution in the ACT that causes these effects – or the “cavemen” who want the damaging pollution to continue?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/oct/05/toxic-air-pollution-particles-found-in-lungs-and-brains-of-unborn-babies

What about backyard fire pits, pizza ovens or campfires when camping? Do you want them banned too?

Oh what a tired old comment jorie1!!! Your comment is the type I would see on the Young Liberals Facebook page. This is an article about environmental protection and the damage being done by wood fires. The Greens proposal aims to phase out wood fires as a process to protect the environment. Your comment seems to suggest you don’t agree with environmental protection. However, instead of contributing to the debate in a meaningful way you come up with a tired old argument trying to link the Greens to communists! I mean how long do we have to listen to these tired comments linking Greens to communism? No matter what you think of the Greens they received overwhelming support at the last ACT election with environmental protection at the top of their agenda!

Indeed, the main pollutants of health concern in Canberra are particulate matter: fine particles of up to 2.5 microns in diameter (abbreviated to PM2.5), or 10 microns in diameter (PM10). These tiny particles are present in smoke generated most commonly by wood heaters, bushfires, vehicle emission exhausts, and dust storms.

Canberra has one of the highest car ownership rates in the world.

Next time, tell the full story.

So how do suggest poor people keep warm?

Pay the poor more money, Gary? Then perhaps they could afford to rent insulated properties. Oh, and extend property insulation requirements to new rentals.

insulation is the first important step to keeping warm economically, regardless of the heater used.

“Canberra has one of the highest car ownership rates in the world.”
Capital Retro, you cite this as a pollution problem. Good to see you on board with a shift to EVs and electricity not from burning fossils.

“Pay the poor more money, Gary?”

Is this a question or are you enlightening me with your bush economics?

Encouraging a little imagination, Gary.
Ground infertile.

The truth is that 1 wood stove emits more PM2.5 pollution in a single hour than driving a petrol car for an entire year. The 5% of households who use wood as main heating cause the majority of PM2.5 emissions in the ACT.

More info: woodsmoke.3sc.net/woodheater-car-comparison

Mr Phydeaux – My imagination disappeared around the same time as my hair and patience. So, yes, ground infertile.

People breathe too, so that’s a pollution problem. There are some pollution producing actions that the world can’t do without and I’ve cited two.

Forget about EVs, they are too expensive and with the Aussie Dollar heading south they will get more expensive. So will the electricity needed to charge them.

And if you are thinking about a new Tesla Powerwall battery for your home think again because it now costs almost $20K to get one and have it installed.

CR wrote: “People breathe too, so that’s a pollution problem.”
So exterminate anything that breathes, is that your point?

Pretending that if a basic level of something exists then all forms and amounts should be ignored regardless of consequences is worse than lazy thinking, it is not thinking at all. Not surprising given you go on to advocate doing nothing to further known solutions to known problems. Your price argument has no future, though it tells me which chapter you have reached in the denialist playbook.

But you can’t attack the car! People are not at all logical regarding their cars. I’ve never seen so many cars with only 1 person in each and so many vehicles parked outside each house. Talk about wasteful, polluting and selfish!

In telling the whole story, let’s focus on diesel powered vehicles such as trucks which pump masses of particulates into our air. Then look at our petrol powered tools such as lawn mowers, blowers, hedgers, whipper snippers. Really, there’s so much we could do to reduce our emissions, if only we were prepared to be more community focussed.