Following on from our story on 21 year old Clea who is currently in a very bad way in Canberra Hospital after being hit by a stolen car in the small hours of Saturday morning the Canberra Times has a detailed article on the incident and what exactly it was the police were doing.
Luke Bicevskis told the ABC that the cars had been travelling at 80-100km/h when they had gone through the bus interchange and Jeremy Pavlovic said the police car had been very close behind the Commodore.
“They [the Commodore] just zoomed through there with absolute carelessness because they were in a hurry to get out because the AFP car was that close,” he said.
Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree that the miscreants in the stolen car should be held accountable to the full extent of the law. However if the authority figures had chosen a different course of action the kids would be up for a minor car theft charge and a 21 year old woman would be getting on with her life this morning. Some quality time in the room of mirrors would at least be in order one would think.
But the institutional dishonesty of the police still claiming there was no high speed pursuit (a statement I suspect is clinging to a very subtle interpretation of what constitutes a “high speed pursuit”) is what concerns me the most. Police complain about a hostile media, but when can we trust them for anything but the good news?
methinks society is progressing to the point that all cars need to be fitted with remote control immobilisers.
problem solved for a myriad of issues..
“… The Commodore took off really fast and I think the only reason it would’ve is that the AFP car was that close and the sirens were blaring.”
Maye it should have stopped?
I just think that maybe we’re too quick to judge the police. These idiots were probably driving irresponsibly before being pursued, and probably would have continued to do so had the pursuit ended. They are the ones at fault here, first and foremost.
Whether the police should have acted differently is an important question, but let’s not kid ourselves that they caused this accident.
I don’t think you can say that had they acted differently the woman woiuld not have been injured – these reckless fools could have just as easily caused an accident were they not being chased.
And why do we accept Luke Bikevskis version of events and not the coppers?
They move the benchmark for what a high speed chase is so that they can ‘honestly’ say that ‘we weren’t involved in a high speed chase’. IF they were chasing that car through Civic at 80 clicks then they deserve to be held accountable. What exactly does a high speed pursuit achieve?
Begs the question. Would have the outcome had been any different? Would these little hoodlums have driven slowly and stopped at a pedestrian crossing, bearing in mind that they had no problem in stealing a car.
The Police did not cause the accident. It was the kids that stole the car.
F*ck I wish people would take some bloody responsibility in their lives. From reports they were so young they should have been home in bed.
All joyriders are a huge safety risk
but if they’re cruising for girls they are going slow.
and if they’re hooning then they tend to do it out on the parkway where at least if they stuff things up it’s their own delinquent parents who will be shedding the tears.
“And why do we accept Luke Bikevskis version of events and not the coppers?”
At any time when comparing conflicting accounts one needs to ask “Who gains from lying”
Given the absolutely rotten record of the police in being honest about these things and no established benefit to Luke Bikevskis in lying I know where i’d be placing my bet.
The Pratt has rather helpfully pointed out that the CCTV network should have some record of this incident and could usefully be employed to clear up the discrepancies.
only the guilty have anything to fear.
Think about it people, how could the version of events as described by ‘my fifteen minutes of fame’ Bicevskis have happened?
If the vehicles have turned in from London Circuit, they would have been travelling at what maybe 20-30km/h tops, then to suggest they have accelerated to 100km/h over the remaining 400m before meeting the next intersection?
Perhaps we should have checked the sobriety level of this clown before we take their comments as gospel.
As noted before, what is there to gain from lying – I am sure the coppers hold slightly more credibility as they are the ones who are going to be in the Coroners Court should the poor girl pass away, not some ‘hero’ bystander…………
And the other bystander, Jeremy Pavlovic, was similarly motivated in your view?
Is that you vg? We’ve been pining for you.
I just don’t know why, even after a media release by the cops that it wasn’t a high speed chase, that people think there was. I for one believe a cop who is willing to put his name to that claim in the media as opposed to some guy who I have never heard of and likely never will.
The whole concept seems not impossible but improbable. Would it be more believable if “joe Smith from nowhere said the cops weren’t speeding’ as opposed to ‘Superintendant lala’? Me thinks that is what people believe.
Excuse me?
They were following a car travelling at 80km through a defacto pedestrian area.
What sophist definition of “High Speed Pursuit” are you applying in order to swallow that press release Tool?
And my point is that you are referring to ‘one’ press release, whilst I refer to another.
Who is right, who is wrong? It is a sad day when people are openly talking about corruption by suggesting the coppers are openly lying, and lying on record…
Children, settle…..
For one we don’t know the full facts. Lets wait and see.
And for as much as I don’t want to agree with him, the Pratt has the most logical suggestion to date regarding the cameras.
I wasn’t referring to a media release, i was referring to your comments.
“I just don’t know why, even after a media release by the cops that it wasn’t a high speed chase, that people think there was.”
I’m reasonably sure that a very narrow definition of truth could be applied to the police statements. But I know how the PR game works and in my view that sort of narrow language to a non-technical audience constitutes deceit.
Police PR, the world over, needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt.
I suppose all PR does, but credulous fools think the police work to a higher standard that I can’t say I’ve observed.
i’ve been chatting to someone else who witnessed the impact. Granted, this is totally hearsay but She doesn’t recall the police being anywhere near fleeing car when the girl was hit. Hardly what you’d call a high speed pursuit.
Ah Johnboy, I agree with you but can I say this, when we are dealing with the wasted death of a young girl with her whole life ahead of her, I cannot see a PR stunt neing pulled. You should know the cops are a public servant organisation just like everyone, image is everything, and if you can deflect bad publicity by putting an individual to blame it will happen, and it hasn’t happened…
At the end of the day the car shouldn’t have been in the interchange – period!
Love your work Jazz!
And the kids shouldn’t have been driving it.
But if everything was done by the book then i’d say, based on the outcome, that the book needs looking at.
No point speculating on what may or may not have been a chase; it seems it will be cleared up one way or another.
What’s disgusting is that we have 13 – 15 y.o. kids who are stealing cars, then running from the cops and finally running an innocent down.
Kids don’t wake up one morning and decide this is how they want to spend a day. I want to know who taught kids of that age how to drive? Who taught them how to steal a car? WTF?
The parents and guardians of these kids have blood on their hands as well. This only thing outweighing the tragedy of this event is the outragious actions of these children.
methinks society is progressing to the point that all cars need to be fitted with remote control immobilisers.
problem solved for a myriad of issues..
The more adventurous kids in my year were stealing cars and joy-riding from about year 10
let me tell you there was a lot of screaming engines doing 60 in first gear while the figured things out.
most of them have gone on to be fine upstanding members of the community for what it’s worth.
Johnboy, you always been anti-copper? Or is there a little incident in the past?
Confess.
Never had that sort of incident.
I’m not anti-copper, in fact some of my best friends are in the police force
But police forces are given great powers and need to be ver carefully scrutinised as a result. And in Australia the record is pretty poor for their ability to keep themselves clean.
And my personal experience of the honesty of the force in their public communications has been a poor one.
I think we should separate out two things in the statement by Bicevskis – (a) his estimate of the vehicles’ speed; and (b) the proximity of the police. I would say the first is likely to be more unreliable, but even if it is it doesn’t really change his assessment of the second.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story
Damn, now the wallopers have more ammo for that “speed kills” rubbish.
Western Australia have imobilisers fitted to cars as part of registration. If you don’t have one no rego. It is a good system that should be in place here.
I have seen Police pull heaps of people over coming out of Pitts car park. Any one of those cars could have caused a similar incident if the driver had decided to run.
Most people are law abiding and if hailed by the Police stop. There are those out there that don’t care. They also don’t care if they steal your car or break into your house.
How pissed were our star witnesses? I know Luke and he doesn’t mind a drop.
Johnboy, you seem a bit cranky over this one.
G
I’ll confess that watching the process of the Met in London launch a vilification campaign against a man they’d executed in cold blood has got my blood up, for all that it’s a different force in a different country there are cultural similarities.
My own experience of police media (who are not sworn officers, probably for good reasons) here in the ACT has been such that I trust them not at all.
Yeah. I have to agree with you re the police media. My dealings with ‘Sandy’ have not been rewarding.
I keep an open mind on the possibility of eye-witnesses being drunk/drugged, cop haters, or famewhores(or any combo thereof).
There are two completely separate issues here: firstly the actions of the alleged offenders, and secondly whether the police were engaged in a high speed pursuit at the time of the incident.
Nobody here is going to voice any support for the alleged offenders. What they did was wrong, and I hope they get put away for a long time if they are found guilty.
Now we come to the actions of the police.
Were they involved in a high speed pursuit through the bus interchage? I don’t know – I wasn’t there, and don’t know any of the witnesses to know what their credibility is.
IF the police were involved in a high speed pursuit at the time (and it’s a big IF), then this would definitely be regarded as a contributing factor in the incident. I say “contributing factor”, not the whole reason for the incident. Ultimately that responsibility has to lie in the hands of the driver of the hit-and-run vehicle.
However, a high speed pursuit through a built up area like Civic (let alone through a pedestrian rich area like the interchange) would be exceedingly dangerous, and should have been called off immediately, even if it meant the escape of the offenders. The risk to human life is simply too high when measured against a property offence (stealing a car).
IF there was a high speed pursuit in progress, then the police are also guilty of lieing to the public.
I guess the truth will come out at the trial.
What is the alternative to a police pursuit? Let the criminals get away? It is unfortunate in this incident that someone was hurt but how many more people could be hurt if you let people get away?
I personally know a few people who have decided to run when the police have tried to stop them and I can assure you that they don’t slow down as soon as cops are out of sight. They kept running to get as far from the area as possible.
These kids would probably have driven just a fast through the interchange even if the cops had stopped 5 mins before. They were in a stolen car, they weren’t going to stop or slow down anytime soon. It’s unfortunate that it has ended this way but lets be realistic do you really want thieves to know that if they run the cops won’t chase?
Many years ago I had a friend killed in a motorcycle accident. The police caught him doing 92km in an 80 zone with a roadside radar. When an officer indicated for him to pull over he sped off reaching speeds of up to 200kph. The police didn’t give chase, they didn’t even try to go for the cruiser, they just let him run. 3 suburbs, 10km later he failed to negotiate a corner at high speed and hit a parked car & a tree. He was 200m from home, & he wasn’t slowing down until he got there. Now do you blame the police? If they hadn’t decided to pull him over for something as trivial as 12k’s over the limit on a clear day then he would still be here? I thought that for a few years. I came to realise that the cops were just doing they’re job.
There was an incident in the US in the early 80’s where the police tried to pull over a van with stolen plates. The van took off & was been driver very erratically, so the cops decided not to pursue. Several years later it was discovered that the van was been driven by two rapists/serial killers and that they had two 14 year old girls in the back who they later raped and tortured. The two men went on to rape & kill 6 more girls before being caught.
The other thing that concerns me is that the police would still be copping flak if the opposite had happened. Imagine the outcry if the kids had hit the girl & then run with no sign of the police?
Bring back the caltrops.
Being forcibly stopped is a good way of saying ‘you’re now in trouble’.
People will also quickly get the message that wrecked tyres and horrific accidents aren’t a convenient way to begin a police interview.
May sound a bit gory, but it seems more appropriate than letting them have the chance to kill somebody else on the road.
I’m not opposed in theory to high speed pursuit, or even the use of Severe Tire Damage devices.
I just want some honesty when things go wrong.
The current silence suggests an attempt to get stories straight.
I’m pretty sure the police would view a suspect who had to keep revising statements and then took a lengthy pause to figure out what they want to say hapenned as one to watch out for.
Truth is easy, lies take time.
I agree that when someone does something that is against the law they should be punished and the police have to attempt to stop these people breaking the law in the first place.
But when Police are persuing 3 under 15yr old boys in a high powered car through the middle of a busy area full of ppl having fun
(that on Fridays nights is usually void of any cars other than a line of taxi’s)
at a high speed then u have to wonder what these police where thinking! Why on earth would they continue a chase through that area!?!?! Then to come out the next day and say that they were not pursuing the car! I think the AFP are on drugs! They looked stupid coming out and saying, that, before anything else, they did not continue the chase. That just screams guilty!
There are witnesses and camera’s all through civic (which they have already said they will ONLY use for the prosecution of the teenagers) that can prove them wrong. I have no faith in the ACT police and this just proves it.
Rather than thinking and acting responsibly they jumped then gun and thought, “Hey lets chase theses young boys til we catch them”. Yes they are criminals none the less and were doign something that is against the law but they knew they were young when they saw them acting “suspiciously”. So I don’t see how it would make sense to pursue these kids at high speed and risk the lives of innocent ppl, the kids and the police. They r kids why not use their authority responsibly? The police saw the kids acting suspiciously well before the pursuit! I believe they could have avoided this situation.
They were in an unmarked car, why not follow them into a safer area and then try and pull them over. Or set up a road block or something….? The criminals and the police didn’t think about the consequences and now a 21yr old is going to die.
I’m not over a particular point yet.
Were the drivers aware they were being tailed by police or were the police flashing them?
Everyone seems to be ganging on the Police pushing the bad guys into making things worse, but if the drivers weren’t aware of the police behind them then this would have happened regardless yes?
I’m not saying that police should not pursue suspects. High speed pursuits have their place, but that place is NOT a built up area which is known by all and sundry to be rich in pedestrians.
FB: In answer to your question, yes I would rather that they got away, if the only alternative was the needless death of the innocent pedestrian who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. A stolen commodore worth $20,000 is NOT worth the life of an innocent bystander.
Most police forces have strict guidelines as to when a pursuit is permitted, and when it has to be called off. I would be VERY surprised if a high speed pursuit would be permitted under those guidelines through an area like the bus interchange.
Would the cessation of pursuit have changed the behaviour of the offenders? Very doubtful, I agree, but you have to do what you can to minimise the risk to the general public.
I’m on the police side RG, but admit perhaps things could have been done a little better.
A bit of forward planning, and a good look at the West Australian way of putting in immobilisers could have seen this whole incident not even occur at all.
I’d actually like this system hooked up to sattelite, so if some prick steals your car, you call the coppers and they immobilise it (based upon registration), the effect – they can’t do burnouts in it and torch it where it’s nice and dark, they’ll have to abandon it where it is.
Long walk home for them, with potential embarrassment and potential to be caught ‘in possession’.
We should be using this as an example why immobilisers are a necessity, rather than bagging out some coppers and criminals doing a hot pursuit, that’s what they’ve been doing since cars were invented.
Who are you ORL. Pull your head in until you have some kind of idea what actually happened. You’re hanging shit on the prople who are actually prepared to get out there and deal with the dregs of society and make hard decisions. I’d like to see your attitude change when someone breaks into your house and kicks your sorry arse – see how fast you want the Police to drive to help you out then.
Police see someone acting suspiciously they pull them over. If those people happen to decide to drive fast through the bus interchange – who’s decision is that?
As FB said – They wouldn’t stop until they were well away and they probably drove through the interchange so that Police would call off the pursuit.
How about you take it back one step and put the blame on the Courts for giving these little pricks lenient sentences time and time again. I would be pretty sure its not the first time they have done it.
G
yeah, What he said!!
i’m still not convinced that a pursuit was actually in place
Who am I? I am a friend of the girl who got hit!!! I know exactly what happened!!!!!
Yeah the courts suck for letting the little delinquent off, all of them for that matter! They are responsible for taking someones lives and the friends and family who r invloved!!!! He was on a good bahviour bond for 12mths when this happened. His parents are obviously on drugs too!
There was a persuit! Because when my friends were running to help Clea when she was lying on the ground they nearly got hit by the police car! The lights were flashing and it was at high speed. They saw Clea get hit by a car and kept going.
I don’t know how a person with training and a responsiblity to up hold the law etc etc can make a discision to chase the young kids through Civic even if it wasn’t the interchange. Anywhere through Civic or Braddon is just asking for trouble! It just boggles my mind and everyone else with half a brain that they think the best option is to chase them. They were unmarked! I know 14yr olds and they are not criminal master minds. I’m sure the police could have thought, for ONE second, of a better option than to scare the shit out of them and chase them! Cops are trained to do a job and they f**ked up and then tried to lie about it. We deserve better than to be lied to!People in the ACT should have faith in the AFP and the judicial system. They r idiots!
And in reply to your comment G. I have had shit happen to me before, where police have to get involved. Why do u think I have this attitude towards them? And now this!!!!!!
Yes they are out there to deal with the dregs of society and maybe in the ACT they see it a bit too much. But they are still police that is the career they chose to do and along with it comes a certain responsibility. This is the career they chose. They (should) get specialist training to make decisions looking at all the factors, consequences etc…. in this particular crime they stuffed up. Everyone knows it.
They didn’t make the right decision and then the AFP tried to lie about it, very badly might I add. Why should they try and cover it up? Cos they know something went wrong! It always will untill someone has guts to say lets admit and fix it!
Please G I would like to hear your comments again.
ORL, you are a product of the generation that never learned grammar, spelling, or sentence structure.
I’m afraid the only thing I got out of your comment there was the fact that you used 21 apostrophies.
I have rules set up on my computer that automatically deletes emails that are sent to me that have more than 3 apostrophies in the entire text.
I suggest that you take night classes urgently because there is a likelyhood that you will appear before either a court or a board of enquiry in the immediate future if you are indeed as informed as you say you are, and they may need you to put things a little more clearly.
8 that time
ORL I think it is apparent that you would like to know what you are talking about but don’t. The day you say a 14 year old can’t be a criminal mastermind makes me shiver. How many atrocities around the world have been performed by children.
But hey I am sure you live in that part of Canberra where there are no families that are on welfare, and drugs don’t exist, and all the children do go to school, and 14 yearl olds don’t steal and drive cars!!!
Thank you Maelinar. I guess that is the real issue here. My grammer and spelling!
Why are u on here? To live your dream as an editor that u could never achieve because u were seen as a smart arse or to debate topics?
yes I know that I get ahead of myself and don’t bother being anal and checking my spelling and grammer but it is because I fell v passionate about this topic as I know of it first hand!
Please get back to whatever it is u do or debate the topic not my fucking education.
And I will keep that in mind next time I am before a court.
“Please don’t sentence me Judge……Please”
Thinking in my mind…..I knew I should have listened to bloody Maelinar, my bloody spelling and grammer got me into trouble again!
!8O!!>:(!?!?!?!@Maelinar
So my next question is, were the lights on before or after the goofs hit the girl?
Tool
I think that as adults and trained police, they could have looked at the situation and thought of a better way to go about it. Without endangering innocent lives. These ppl were 14, 12 and 15. Now I am assuming u r an adult? Would u think it would be the best idea to get in a high speed pursuit with these kids? Really if u think about it
1. The kids don’t really even know how to drive so would it be a good idea to encourage a high speed pursuit?
2. The crime started around a highly built up area
3. U r in an unmarked police car
4. It is a friday night and there are other police units in the area. (As everyone knows Braddon is prone to police activity on Friday nights so they would have been near
I just don’t think that the police did the right thing and I think some ppl are missing some of the issue. The AFP lied flat out and did the wrong thing!
ORL, welcome to the world of being ignored.
dfr.com.au also came up as a dead link, you may wish to look into the accuracy of your email address.
What will occur from now, is I will continue talking, however no further reference will be made by me of your articles until you learn how to blog appropriately.
I love having the last word…
ORL, joo r a stup1d ce11phone g4n4rati0n d0rk.
They were on before!