20 December 2009

Eighteen greyhounds?

| IrishPete
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I have great sympathy for people who lost pets, property and livestock in the fire in the Michelago area, but does ANYONE think it is responsible to have 18 greyhounds as pets? If you’re a breeder, maybe, but then there are regulations governing breeders (I think).

And the owner claimed to be a firefighter and to have her property well-prepared, but her dogs clearly weren’t beneficiaries of this preparedness. If they had been let out they could have outrun the fire.

I’m serious considering writing to the RSPCA about this – they have strong views on what they call “Animal Hoarders”.

UPDATED: In reply Madame Workalot has sent in the following:

My name is Jennifer, and Bruce and Lindsay Perrin are my parents. Mum, Dad and
myself lost 13 of our beloved greyhounds on Thursday.

I would just like to thank everyone for their well wishes and understanding.
What my parents have gone through was horrific, however we have all been
absolutely overwhelmed with the community response and the assistance provided
by everyone, including greyhound breeders, trainers and enthusiasts all over the
world.

IrishPete, I really don’t have anything to say to you. However, I would like to
clear up some of your concerns.

Myself and my parents had 18 greyhounds. All of these were racedogs until about
2 years ago, when we all decided to retire them. When we originally got the dogs
we made a pact we would not put them down when they finished racing, and they
would remain our pets. We live on approx 100 acres at the foot of the Tinderry
Mountains, and our neighbours have never had a problem with our dogs.

Our dogs were not in wire enclosures or typical greyhound accommodation – they
had timber houses, with a large timber yard for each dog. In addition, they had
long fenced off paddocks behind the kennels where they would be exercised each
day. In hindsight, they may have been better off in greyhound enclosures but
they had a very happy life and were just beautiful dogs.

You may not be aware of this, but there were two or three firetrucks on the
property during the fire specifically to protect the dogs. The firies were not
able to save them all, the fire was just too intense. Both of my parents
suffered from smoke inhalation and burns to their faces trying to protect the
dogs and the aviary. There simply wasn’t time to consider letting the dogs or
the birds loose – it happened too quickly. From the time the fire was reported
to the time it reached the property, it was a mere 45 minutes. The firies
thought they had done all they could to protect the animals, and in a normal
fire their actions would have saved the dogs. However, it simply wasn’t a normal
fire.

Five dogs remain – all are suffering from smoke inhalation and one has been at
the vet since Friday being treated. I thought I was going to lose her, however
thankfully she seems to have turned the corner and I should be able to bring her
home tomorrow. Thank you all once again for your kind thoughts. I will update
you in a couple of weeks with progress – for now, we are trying to clean up and
just deal with what happened.

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I would like to suggest the RiotACT introduce a ‘Dog With a Bone’ award and I will nominate IrishPete as a worthy winner. The criteria for this must include:
Tasty looking bone, have a chew then bury.
Dig up and have another chew (regardless of how smelly, rebury).
And finally, when you can’t resist any longer dig it up again (even if its beginning to stink)and enjoy regardless of how many other people object to the smell. Refer to my previous comment #9.

IrishPete, you could have apologised for your initial post there! I think you’ve actually dug yourself a little further in there …

IrishPete – i hope you aren’t somehow implying that if your brigade had been there you would have been able to save the dogs after all. If I was you id be apologising for making these massively unfounded accusations in the first place, not for the fact that “your brigade wasn’t there”.

-1 IrishPete – I think that takes you to about -5 so far.

Thank you Jennifer for your very measured response (though I get the hint that you are offended). I genuinely sympathise with your and your parents’ losses.

I am sorry my Brigade wasn’t asked to assist protect yours or anyone else’s property (and there may be another story there – we may never know) – I would have been honoured by the opportunity.

Pete

+1 for Woody Mann-Caruso’s comment.

If anything it sounds like they were being very responsible. They must be devastated to have lost so many animals in their care.

la mente torbida12:08 pm 21 Dec 09

@Madam Workalot

Hang in there Jen, you know we are all here for you and your family.

Quote: Our dogs were not in wire enclosures or typical greyhound accommodation – they
had timber houses, with a large timber yard for each dog. In addition, they had
long fenced off paddocks behind the kennels where they would be exercised each
day. In hindsight, they may have been better off in greyhound enclosures but
they had a very happy life and were just beautiful dogs.

What more needs to be said? Irishpete you are a special type of person, one that I hope to never meet in real life, im refraining from calling you what I really think as I don’t want to be moderated.

A brave and powerful response from Jennifer, I wish your family and your remaining dogs well and hope you never have to endure a horror like this again, or have to go through a fire like that again either.

Irishpete please stop now while you are only this far behind. Lets face it you have dug yourself a hole and more posting is only digging the hole further.

It takes all kinds to make a world mostly two kinds, the ones that do and the ones that sit there and whinge. For many years now I have seen both Bruce and Lindsay in the local fire brigade including the Canberra fires saving other peoples properties, animals and houses, but unfortunately on Thursday due to the temperatures and the wind speed the fire was out of control. My sympathy goes out to Bruce and Lindsay for the lose of their pets as I know how much they cared about them. Alot of retired dogs don’t get to live at all. Bruce and Lindsay would not have that many dogs unless they able to give them the upmost care. I would like to thank both Bruce and Lindsay from the Michelago Community for the support they have given us and I think that its a shame to see something written like this from someone that has no idea what he is talking about.

Who cares how many greyhounds they have? as long as the owners are looking after all of them appropriately, they could own 100 if they wish.

I hope the RSPCA have strong views about the idiots of the world making complaints without any evidence too.

Woody Mann-Caruso6:52 pm 20 Dec 09

My original question remains largely unanswered – is having 18 dogs sufficient suspicion to report to relevant authorities?

Are you thick? I’ll type it slowly. THE…NUMBER…OF…DOGS…IS….IRRELEVANT. One dog is too many if it’s not cared for or disturbs the neighbourhood. You have no evidence whatsoever that these dogs weren’t given proper or even excellent care or were a nuisance to others. Until you do, your ‘point’ is pretty mich ‘omg lots of DOGS tehy is TEH HOARDERS police RPCSA think of teh BURNIGN CHILDREN IN CAGES’. In other words, none.

Irish Pete, you may have experience of fires, but you definitely don’t have experience of how to humanely keep dogs.

Head on over to Dogz Online, visit their forums, and read what dog-savvy people have to say (about this issue in particular, and the RSPCA in general).

If you have not had the pleasure of seeing a well-run kennel in action, then I can assure you that eighteen greyhounds (and those peoples’ dogs in particular were not only loved, but lived the life of Riley) in a rural area can be housed with every attention to their physical and mental welfare.

*ngg* tried to resist, but it has forced its way out… am wondering what standards he is accustomed to dogs being kept in???

Pete, you say you live in a rural area? Do you run stock ? I live at Burra and run sheep and the idea that letting them go to run away is absurd considering the current problems we have with wild dogs (and domestic pets that are not locked up and roaming) killing livestock.
I couldn’t think of anything worse than 13 greyhounds on the loose in the hills, so that part of your post is total rubbish and was never an option for anyone living in a farming area.
Back to your main point of hoarding. Both my uncles have raced greyhounds for 40 years and I have seen over 100 dogs kenneled at one property with zero smell and bugger all noise, this was his full time job and if you could see the level of care that they all had you see that 18 is not a lot at all especially for the size of their property.
They saved 5 dogs that are their current racing dogs, do some research and you will find that they race them and he is a registered trainer. The other 13 were retired.
My mate from Michelago actually picked their kids up from the bust stop that afternoon as they were trapped by the fire, so I know a hell of a lot amore about this whole incident than I care to post here.
Pete, you need to get a life and stop being a troublemaker as you status says and stop wasting the RSPCA’s precious time.

troll-sniffer12:07 pm 20 Dec 09

In all the years of reading RiotAct this OP has to be the most uncaring misguided holier-than-thou (but I wasn’t there) disgusting pieces of gutter commentary about other people’s incredible misfortune that I have yet had the abject misfortune to read.

Does the OP have even the merest hint of a grain of a microcosm of sympathy for what the property owners have gone through? Obviously not, or they would have kept their personal opinions back where they belonged, which is not in this public forum.

There are few things in life that a person can encounter that are truly sadder than an individual who believes they are so righteous and perfect in every fibre of their being that they could manage every last detail of a frightening situation such as an out of control bushfire on a rural property at the base of the Tinderry Range. However, I give you Irishpete, who has risen above mere mortality, who in his perfection would have had the foresight to not only prevent a bushfire from entering his property but in the impossible situation where the fire did breach his unbreachable defences, would have had the time to calmly collect the various pets and working animals from the four corners of the property and calmly load them into the back of the Prius and gently drive them out of the front gate to safety.

Idiot.

You really have nothing better to do than come on here and go on about this! You are absolutely pathetic. How can you go on about things like this when you don’t know the full details. The birds were kept in an aviary and the dogs were very well cared for. If you live on a property and the dogs have enough room to run around and are care for well enough should there be a limit to how many you own! Just hearing the owner talk about her dogs you can tell how upset she was. You have no argument.

Maybe if you knew the actual facts like how/where the dogs and birds were kept, how long the owners had to save there place and the reason that they had that many dogs, maybe then people might listen to you but you have NO IDEA at all.

You are an idiot. Good on you for being a volunteer, but being a volunteer I thought that maybe you might think twice about something like this. If you were out saving someone else’s place and then were told that your property was on fire and rushed home and your dogs were basically gone because the fire was that close, do you really think that you would go and save them, BULLSHIT.

I think that maybe someone really should put you in the same situation that these owners were put in and see how you react to coming home and realising that you could potentially lose everything that you have ever worked for.

I hope you also remember that on this property was a sawmill which of course fuelled the fire.

Grow up & Get a life.

simply, pete, no, not necessarily sufficient.

By the way; anybody interested in adopting a greyhound can contact the NSW GAP program; they are always looking for loving homes for retired racers. Despite their image as an aggressive breed, greyhounds were originally bred as companion dogs for British nobility; and despite being used as fodder for gamblers these days, they retain their wonderful natures. They are very much like cats in many ways; sleek, feline and graceful, and they very rarely display some of the ‘bad habits’ that deter people from dog ownership, such as berking, digging, destroying property etc… They are lovely with kids, very quiet and don’t need much exercise. In fact, they are the breed of choice in apartment cities like New York, due to their low-maintenance requirements. They are known as the ‘coach potatoes’ of the dog world. I should also mention that not ALL people who race dogs treat their dogs badly; many owner/racers absolutely love their dogs, and either keep them or rehome them at the end of their careers. I have seen the worst side of the industry though – and fail to understand why, in this age of technology, we still need to bet on ‘sports’ that may cause animal suffering.

Some good responses, asking sensible questions, some emotive rubbish. Lots of jumping to conclusions while accusing me of doing the same – e.g. I do in fact live in a rural area. Someone described the birds as being in an aviary – where is your evidence, or are you making assumptions while accusing me of making assumptions? I agree it is likely they were in an aviary, just as it is likely the dogs were in wire enclosures.

Living through one big fire does not make you an expert, whereas attending dozens of them may make me more experienced than you if that’s all the experience you have (but I did not and do not claim to be an expert – I am, by definition, an amateur firefighter because I have a day job).

A common theme is “where is my evidence?”. I am not an investigating authority. I do not have the right to enter someone’s property and seek evidence. The RSPCA does because Australian governments fund them to do so instead of (or as well as) the police and local Councils. (By the way, as the fire was wholly in NSW, RSPCA-ACT may not have any jurisdiction). If I suspect my neigbour’s house is being burgled, or a neighbour’s child is being abused, it is not my role as a member of the public to investigate – I report my suspicion and let the appropriate authorities investigate.

My point about a child in a cage was simply to demonstrate that there are limits to the behaviour that we will forgive out of sympathy. Mentioning a child in a cage was over the top (though, sadly, this stuff happens) and seems to have distracted people from the point. So more realistically, what if the child was locked in a bedroom? Or if it was a regular house fire (not bushfire) and your house had no smoke alarms (as required by law in NSW)? If someone crashed into your car, completely not your fault, but your child wasn’t wearing a seatbelt? Rhetorical questions, as I’ve given up on receiving rational responses. As I stated, a dog is not a child, but nor is it nothing, and owners have a responsibility to provide a certain level of care to them.

For an article on animal hoarders see here: http://www.smh.com.au/national/animal-hoarders-out-of-control-20090516-b6p4.html – an average of 30, with outliers as high as 270, says to me that 18 may make the cut.

My original question remains largely unanswered – is having 18 dogs sufficient suspicion to report to relevant authorities? I don’t think anyone has given a straight answer, because they have tied it up with the emotion of sympathy for people who have lost.

Pete

We worked with the Victorian Greyhound Adoption program in the early days, before retired greyhounds were known to be what they are; gorgeous, sooky, lazy, gentle, beautiful pets. The owner in question has made specific reference to her dogs being in ‘runs’; runs are quite different to ‘cages’ – they usually have ample room for the dogs to wander about. The lady has also made specific reference to her dogs being ‘retired racers’. The vast majority of retired racers end up dead; shot in the head with their ears cut off (so they can’t be traced – each racer has an ear tattoo I.D.) and buried in the bush. The ‘slightly luckier’ ones are euthanised by a vet. A lot will end up as ‘surgery experiment dogs’ at universities that teach students to become vets. Others will be kept in cages and used as blood donation dogs (where they spend their lives having needles). The fast ones may end up as breeding stock; okay for the dogs, but the bitches spend their lives having litter after litter of puppies – a fairly miserable existance. Greyhounds are still seen as disposable dogs, and it breaks my heart. Only a very, very lucky few end up in the various adoption programs or are kept as pets on their retirement. These people, who have given a home to 18 ex-racers and obviously have a passion for their animals (they did risk their lives to save five of their dogs) sound like lovely people who couldn’t bear to see these dogs killed at the end of their careers. Thus, they had 18 retired racers. I think they should be congratulated for their kindess, not criticised. The lady was genuinely heartbroken when describing her lost dogs – I very much doubt this degree of emotion would have been felt for mere ‘breeding stock’. My heart goes out to these poor people and I hope they manage to recover, rebuild, and continue to give ex racers a home.

pete’s right – the owner herself made the claim that she had eighteen retired greyhounds, listening to thirteen of them burn to death. and i gather she is a current firey as she noted her gear was in her broken down car back in canberra so she was only wearing civvy clothes and realised how much protection the fire gear provides: but pete and other naysayers might be interested in the work of the organisations at: http://www.forevergreys.com/links.html

retired greyhounds usually wind up euthanized yet make wonderful, loving pets. i suspect this woman was a bit of a halfway house for these animals (i know of other good people who take a dog on for a while before it gets a final home), but even if she had all eighteen for herself, if they were well looked after then there are (were) eighteen dogs not summarily dispatched before their time, and good upon the couple. on a property away from near neighbours i’d suspect they weren’t a problem for anyone else, unlike too many dogs in a suburban setting might be…

as for being a ‘hoarder’, if this is the definition – Animal hoarding involves keeping higher than usual numbers of animals as pets without having the ability to properly house or care for them – then where is there any evidence, pete, for the lack of ability to care for these dogs?? and don’t point out that their kennels burnt in a bushfire without having a good think about the houses that burnt in the canberra fires or the many people who died in last year’s victorian fires. that is not going to be a defensible argument.

Pete – you think letting a bunch of (retired) greyhounds free in a bushfire scenario is a sensible thing?

Letting a pack of dogs, of any description, out I think is just plain stupid. If you’re so into animal welfare have you not thought about what those dogs would do to the surviving wildlife trying to survive as well…?

Keeping 18 dogs in suburbia is a bit different to having 18 dogs on a property in Michelago too mate…

None of the reports say that the dogs (and exotic birds) were anything but adequately cared for. Your comparison of caging children with these dogs tells me how far off the planet you really are.

You say you’re a volunteer firefighter but have you been ***in*** a bushfire – 3 front or otherwise where you, your property (including livestock) are burning? And yes, I’ve been a volunteer firefighter. I also live on property and have also had to say my farewells to livestock in times of fire. Luckily I’ve not been in a position where I’ve lost stock yet (touch wood) but there is no way I would let it out due to the high risk of harm to people such a decision would inflict.

-1 OP.

Quit while you’re behind hero.

I’d say more about this thread but I don’t want to get moderated…

along with fires comes alot of hot air 😉

IrishPete said :

I don’t need to post a reference because the female half of the couple was widely interviewed throughout the media, local and national.

Ah, yes you do… Not doing is sheer laziness and doesn’t help your argument..

IrishPete said :

They were retired greyhounds (her description). I don’t know if retired greyhounds have any monetary value, unless they are being bred from,.

So, these Dogs died because they couldn’t escape, so, I’ll take a page from your book and take a wild guess that they were.. locked up in individual Pens? (not at all uncommon from what I’ve seen of Greyhound owners, maybe breeders do the same thing?)

IrishPete said :

in which case you would describe them differently (greyhound stud farm?)

Would you?. Is it necessary to explain *everything* when you’ve just been through a terrible ordeal like this?

IrishPete said :

A number (actual number not reported) of exotic birds also died.

So they had an Aviary (I’m quoting this as you seem to be suggesting it’s part of this couples habit of “Animal Hoarding”)

IrishPete said :

I’m just wondering what other people think is an acceptable number of dogs to keep caged up – 18, 50, 100, 1000? My opinion is somewhat less than 18, but it seems I’m in the minority so far. No doubt if they lived next door to you, you would also think 18 was a few too many. And even if next door was 1km away, 18 dogs can make a lot of noise and smell.

Context is a wonderful thing. Again, if they were a breeding farm, or whatever, 20 might be an acceptable number.. I don’t know that for sure, and nor do you..

Noise? They may not necessarily be a noisy dogs, if they’ve been trained to race with a bunch of other dogs, maybe that gets trained out of them too?. Smell? Perhaps like the responsible owners they might be, they keep the pens/dog areas clean?

IrishPete said :

If it was a child kept in a cage and left to burn to death, DoCS and the police would be involved, and there’d be little sympathy for the parents/guardians regardless of how much property and how many pets were lost.

Because there’s no reason a child should be kept in a cage..

IrishPete said :

So why not involve the RSPCA when it’s animals? Dogs aren’t humans, but nor are they nothing.

While I’m making the assumption that they were a breeder, they’d probably be an RSPCA Registered Breeder too..That aside, should all the farmers be investigated for the hundreds of livestock that were lost too?

IrishPete said :

Incidentally, the fire ran maybe 20km over a period of several hours – work out the average speed. Unless the greyhounds were terminally arthritic, they could have walked faster than the fire. Fires only run very quickly over short stretches (e.g. up a hill). Heat exhasution and smoke inhalation are only problems when you are in the midst of the fire, not if you are running ahead of it. A human might not outrun a fire, because we don’t run well over rough ground. Dogs let run free would have had a chance, a chance they didn’t have in an enclosure (and I am assuming they were in an enclosure, because there is no report of any of them running over the hills and far away).

My dogs will be looked after if a fire impacts my property, unless I happen to be away protecting someone’s else’s property, which is extremely likely, as I am an active volunteer firefighter.

What’s not to say the owners were out when this occurred?

IrishPete said :

Are any of you?

I’m not, but I’m not sure what this has to do with anything

IrishPete said :

Everyone I have spoken to about this has responded “they had HOW MANY dogs?”.

Probably because of the way you’ve presented this story..

IrishPete said :

I suggest the people who are cynical about the concept of “animal hoarders” type it into Google, and check out what the RSPCA thinks of them, then come back and comment again on Riot Act.

No, I’m aware of Animal Hoarders, as are most… However, I think you’re quite misguided on this one

IrishPete said :

Heat exhasution and smoke inhalation are only problems when you are in the midst of the fire, not if you are running ahead of it.

Speaking from the experience of the Canberra fires, smoke inhalation can be a problem in front of a fire as that is where the wind can push it. After leaving Duffy on the day I didn’t go to the Philip evacuation centre because the smoke was being driven straight through that area, although in my case I have asthma so am more susceptible to that kind of thing.

As for the dogs, it’s a rural area, as long as they were being cared for I don’t see the problem. Some people can’t successfully care for one, others can easily care for many, there shouldn’t be a hard and fast rule by numbers.

“I’m just wondering what other people think is an acceptable number of dogs to keep caged up”

Are you personally aware of the size of these “cages”, how often the dogs were let out for exercise, etc…. or are you choosing to implant a certain image in your head of the cruelty of keeping an animal in a wire mesh kennel when hearing the word “cage”? Im not personally aware myself, im just wondering if you are since you’re the one on the soapbox here.

“If it was a child kept in a cage and left to burn to death, DoCS and the police would be involved”

Whoa, we’re really taking a walk down crazy lane here aren’t we? For one, it wasn’t a child, it was an animal, something our laws makes a lot of distinctions between, not to mention science, the humanities, history, etc…. For another thing children do die in house fires because someone couldn’t save them, are you also going to accuse the parents who have awoken to a house on fire from lets say an electrical fault and been unable to get to their children to due heat/smoke/fire and save them of letting their children burn to death? If so, can I give a baseball bat to said parents and film you saying it to them please? (ok so im being a little sarcastic with that last bit, but I think the statement warranted it).

“Incidentally, the fire ran maybe 20km over a period of several hours – work out the average speed. Unless the greyhounds were terminally arthritic, they could have walked faster than the fire. Fires only run very quickly over short stretches (e.g. up a hill). etc….”

Ah, I see you are obviously a firefighter yourself or someone who advises on fires from for say the CSIRO or some other academic body I presume, you do seem to be quite the expert yourself, at least thats the way it comes across anyway. May I enquire as to what your obviously first hand experience is with multiple different types of fires that leads you to be so knowledgeable. Not that I doubt for a minute your experience, I am just curious, I presume you maybe gave expert evidence into the canberaa bushfire enquiries or similar?

“My dogs will be looked after if a fire impacts my property, unless I happen to be away protecting someone’s else’s property, which is extremely likely, as I am an active volunteer firefighter.”

So if you are away protecting someone’s else property and your dogs due as a result of your property burning down, by your logic we can blame you for letting your dogs die. Oh wait I see, theres your qualification, you are a volunteer firefighter. Ah, what a wealth of experience and scientific knowledge you obviously have. I volunteer for a political party at election time, does that make me a politician or expert political commentator? I volunteer to collect for the Red Cross sometimes, does this make me an expert on the issues they campaign for? I could go on but I think the point is reduntant already.

“I suggest the people who are cynical about the concept of “animal hoarders” type it into Google, and check out what the RSPCA thinks of them, then come back and comment again on Riot Act.”

You know what, I am going to call the ACT branch of the RSPCA tomorrow and find out exactly what the definition of animal hoarders is. I highly doubt they’ll comment on this exact situation, although I could always try sending an email to their media section and see what response I get. I will be very surprised if the RSPCA’s take on this is even within the same geographical region as your claims, let alone on the same planet.

IrishPete said :

Fires only run very quickly over short stretches (e.g. up a hill)

“We’re up a hill from what was the fire front, so it just ran, it just flew up. Incredibly intense, we thought we could fight it, but we couldn’t. I had 18 retired greyhounds of which I had to listen to 13 burn to death, which was a nightmare, but I’ve saved five.”

From: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/18/2775456.htm

Woody Mann-Caruso11:11 pm 19 Dec 09

If it was a child kept in a cage and left to burn to death

Argument – you fail at it.

Come back with some proof that the woman in question was a ‘hoarder’. Hell, I’ll settle for a definition of how many dogs make a horde. Is six OK, but seven breaking some kind of limit? Does the size of the dogs matter? The size of the property? The size of their enclosures? Perhaps you’d best give us some sort of formula so we can work it out for ourselves. Be sure to include a coefficient that measures a particular dog’s fire risk.

(And if anybody needs to be reported to somebody, it’s you for using the words “impacting” and “impacts” like that. “That man is burning!” “Tut tut – he’s being negatively impacted by non-desired combustion.”)

I would think how many dogs landholders are allowed to keep should depend on conditions and the proximity to neighbours. Obviously you wouldn’t wan’t 18 or more dogs next door if you were 1km away. That would be a no-brainer.
My dogs came from a breeder that lives in Sydney (Northern Beaches), in his backyard he houses at least 8 dogs all the time. No smell, no barking..no complaints from his neighbours.

How do you think landowners would feel if the greyhounds were let out and they attacked stock? IMO we have enough problems with feral dogs without adding to it.

If it was a child kept in a cage and left to burn to death, DoCS and the police would be involved, and there’d be little sympathy for the parents/guardians regardless of how much property and how many pets were lost. So why not involve the RSPCA when it’s animals? Dogs aren’t humans, but nor are they nothing. (Perspective, anyone?)

I can’t believe your comparing a child, burning to death in a cage, to (ex?) racing dogs. Of course there would be outrage, IT’S A CHILD…..not a dog. I think it’s you who needs some perspective.

grunge_hippy10:17 pm 19 Dec 09

well done, you’ve successfully proven, if it wasn’t obvious before, that you are an idiot.

they obviously lived on some acreage, so how the hell do you know how these animals were kept?? they could have been in utopian paradise! panicked animals, greyhounds or not would not outrun a fire with much success. and then what, they’ve outrun it, and are now lost in the bush. go and have a chat with some people in victoria who lost everything and see how ‘prepared’ they were and whether their animals were their first priority or themselves…

I know people who live out at michelago, who are also fire fighters, and no one is prepared for a fire that comes in catastrophic conditions like they had. one i know had their house water bombed by a helicopter which almost drowned their dogs. should i call the RSPCA on them? i’m sure they are more thankful to be alive!!!

moron.

gun street girl10:02 pm 19 Dec 09

IrishPete said :

Fires only run very quickly over short stretches (e.g. up a hill).

I am familiar with the area that burnt. It’s incredibly mountainous terrain, with dense bush on all sides.

IMO, not cool to lay the boot into people who have already had their teeth kicked in.

I don’t need to post a reference because the female half of the couple was widely interviewed throughout the media, local and national. Try the front page of Saturday’s Canberra Times. Or Friday’s AM on Radio National. Other posters should check their facts before jumping down my throat. The woman claims to be a firefighter (or an ex-firefighter, reports aren’t entirely clear which) and to have had her and her partner’s property well-prepared for fire.

They were retired greyhounds (her description). I don’t know if retired greyhounds have any monetary value, unless they are being bred from, in which case you would describe them differently (greyhound stud farm?). 13 died, 5 were saved. A number (actual number not reported) of exotic birds also died.

I’m just wondering what other people think is an acceptable number of dogs to keep caged up – 18, 50, 100, 1000? My opinion is somewhat less than 18, but it seems I’m in the minority so far. No doubt if they lived next door to you, you would also think 18 was a few too many. And even if next door was 1km away, 18 dogs can make a lot of noise and smell.

The Canberra bushfires impacting unexpectedly on the suburban fringe is a very different situation to a rural property in the Tinderries, an area with a high fuel load that hasn’t been burnt in around 50 years (from the owners’ own account).

If it was a child kept in a cage and left to burn to death, DoCS and the police would be involved, and there’d be little sympathy for the parents/guardians regardless of how much property and how many pets were lost. So why not involve the RSPCA when it’s animals? Dogs aren’t humans, but nor are they nothing. (Perspective, anyone?)

Incidentally, the fire ran maybe 20km over a period of several hours – work out the average speed. Unless the greyhounds were terminally arthritic, they could have walked faster than the fire. Fires only run very quickly over short stretches (e.g. up a hill). Heat exhasution and smoke inhalation are only problems when you are in the midst of the fire, not if you are running ahead of it. A human might not outrun a fire, because we don’t run well over rough ground. Dogs let run free would have had a chance, a chance they didn’t have in an enclosure (and I am assuming they were in an enclosure, because there is no report of any of them running over the hills and far away).

My dogs will be looked after if a fire impacts my property, unless I happen to be away protecting someone’s else’s property, which is extremely likely, as I am an active volunteer firefighter. Are any of you? Everyone I have spoken to about this has responded “they had HOW MANY dogs?”.

I suggest the people who are cynical about the concept of “animal hoarders” type it into Google, and check out what the RSPCA thinks of them, then come back and comment again on Riot Act.

Pete

It’s a bloody rural property – if you ever ventured outside the city limits you might notice that the keeping of large numbers of animals is a traditional rural pastime of sorts!

Felix the Cat8:22 pm 19 Dec 09

I think you have over reacted, IrishPete and according to the anberra Times there were only 13 dogs – http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/scorched-earth-lost-friends-the-cruel-hand-of-fire/1709808.aspx

This is absolutely pathetic. It doesn’t matter how well prepared you have your property for things like this, one gust of wind and anything is possible.

How can you truly judge anyone unless you have been put in the same situation. Its fair for people to have their say but to go to the extremes of going to the RSPCA, don’t you have anything better to do than pick on someone that has just lost years of hard work because of someone’s stupidity! I think you need to have a long hard think about what you would have done if you were put in the same situation and maybe take into mind that the people who owned these dogs lived on a property, not in a small suburban house. I assure you that these dogs were well looked after as I know the owners.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Yes. Is there anything else I can help you with, like a sense of perspective? (Incidentally, did you dob on the Weston Animal Hospital to the RSPCA when it burned in the 2003 fires? HOARDERS! What about the animals in enclosures at Tidbinbilla who perished as well? ANYONE?)

well said!

irishpete u can’t be serious??

Ever been through a major fire situation? Choices and decisions to make.
Ever had dogs in a rural situation? You can’t just have them running loose. Something about dogs and stock.
Whats your alternative for retired or unsuccessful racers? Perhaps cut their ears off. I think that in time you may regret having brought this one up.

As far as I know, they were retired greyhounds.

Of course, they could have put them all down and that way, you’d sleep easier at night knowing ‘animal hoarders’ weren’t out to ruin your life. Seriously though, they lost a fair bit in the fires, but they didn’t lose it all, so maybe you should complain because it’d serve them right!

As to the fire, the reports claim the fires came from three directions onto the property. 1 man with a well-prepared property won’t stop three fronts. Of course, you being from the intarweb, you feel you somehow could have.

Finally, I’d hate to see you with no sympathy for people who lost pets, cause your great sympathy amounts to “I am going to spit in their faces!”

Idiot.

Devil_n_Disquiz6:30 pm 19 Dec 09

You can’t be serious?

-1

Was this reported on a news site somewhere, if so link?? or is it just idle gossip?

grunge_hippy5:45 pm 19 Dec 09

where’s your source that they had 18 greyhounds?

OK, first of all the 18 greyhounds were not ‘pets’-they were racers, and worth a considerable amount of money.

Letting the dogs out to go where? Sure they would have been able to outrun the fire for what 500m or so (think about how fast the fire was approaching)..then collapse from smoke/heat exhaustion and die anyway.

Woody Mann-Caruso5:22 pm 19 Dec 09

Yes. Is there anything else I can help you with, like a sense of perspective? (Incidentally, did you dob on the Weston Animal Hospital to the RSPCA when it burned in the 2003 fires? HOARDERS! What about the animals in enclosures at Tidbinbilla who perished as well? ANYONE?)

Maybe if you could find some live dogs, owned by nasty “animal hoarders” and expose their plight, I personally might have a strong interest in your questions or opinion.

Do you have personal knowledge of these dogs and their owner?

I don’t have the paper itself, but the CT online says they only had 13 dogs. For someone to have that many they were probably in competition. If these dogs were properly cared for, before they died in a fire, I don’t see any problem with it.

The owner chose their life and property over their dogs lives. I think a lot of people would have done the same.

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