41 more wind turbines for Lake George

2604 said :

It would be very interesting to know how much each MW/hr of energy generated by those turbines costs (including capital costs amortised over the course of each turbine’s life) and how it compares to market rates of green energy.

Would also be interesting to know how the cost of wind power compares to the cost of coal-fired power plus carbon offset plus capital costs.

Wind power is pretty much 99% capital cost, with no externalised costs except for a bit of “windkill” and the induction of some psychosomatic medical complaints.

Coal power has large operational costs involving the supply and consumption of fuel and including waste disposal plus a massive amount of externalised costs in the form of very dodgy particulate emissions, CO2 emissions, and the effects on land use and groundwater from coal mining operations.

Wind power is currently good value due to the high Aussie dollar – our prolonged lack of investment in this technology means we import it all from Denmark and Spain.

qbngeek said :

If the ACT wants the power generated they could always do something outrageous like buy it at market rates.

It would be very interesting to know how much each MW/hr of energy generated by those turbines costs (including capital costs amortised over the course of each turbine’s life) and how it compares to market rates of green energy.

Would also be interesting to know how the cost of wind power compares to the cost of coal-fired power plus carbon offset plus capital costs.

NoAddedMSG said :

bit of a drag though..

Like your picture right?

Wouldn’t all the workers putting them together all be sick if it was so…

I do and kids think they look pretty damn cool!

Was speaking to a tradie who is working out there installing them. They are an overseas company and for every turbine on the affected lot/s, the owner of the land gets about $10,000 a year for having it on his land. Although it is quite a timely matter in getting them on your land.

First you apply to the company, they come check it out with some wind meters, if it meets required data, they install wind meters all over and they test for approx 3 years looking at all the data and project what they could produce and if it meets the minimum, then the owners get to have a tourist attraction on there land. Good on them!

Anyone want to donate a nice couple of hundred acres thats very windy so that i can get some put on it and then i’ll never have to work again!

Listening carefully on a quiet winter evening at the Fisher Shops (waiting for pizza), I can hear road noise from Tuggeranong Parkway—seems to come from that direction anyway. We are so used to, and dismissive of road noise (e.g. recent Aranda thread, or older threads about trucks), car alarms at night, or “unsightly” (to me anyway) power lines up Oakey Hill.

Once people are used to seeing turbines, they’ll get used to it. And industry’s ability (e.g. via the Australian Landscape Guardians) to highlight “infrasound” while overt noise elsewhere (e.g. from taxpayer-funded roads) is clearly a problem, is something to be admired.

Example article about traffic noise and strokes: http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2011/01/08/eurheartj.ehq466.abstract

As some are noting, the health effects seem intrinsically linked to fiscal participation in the project.

I believe a smart wind farm proponent would undertake a GIS analysis of the viewshed and noiseshed of the proposal. Then (within reason) they would offer a proportion of the profits to all the affected surrounding landholders based on an easily quantifiable scale of impact that could be calculated from the above mapping.

The community-owned wind turbines in Victoria have been conflict-free. Perhaps this sort of community participation would smooth the ruffled feathers?

dvaey said :

As others have said, I wonder if we’ll actually get to use this power, or if Sydney council will find some power-hungry project to gobble it all up before its even generated?

Id also like to see at least part of one of these wind farms opened up to the public, rather than only being able to see them from across Lake George, or on the occasional day the farmers decide to have an ‘open day’ and let us citizens see what our tax monies are going towards.

Uuumm, you do realise they are located in NSW right? And Infigen (the owners of the turbines) are a private company from memory. So why exactly does the ACT have any entitlement to the power generated? If the NSW Government/Intergral Energy/etc choose to buy the power, what claim do you have to it?

If the ACT wants the power generated they could always do something outrageous like buy it at market rates.

yellowsnow said :

The crazy thing is all the energy generated around Lake George goes to offset power consumed by an expensive and powerhungry Sydney desal plant that’s no longer needed, yet runs 24h/per day anyway. It’s one hungry beast.

Given the desal plant wasn’t there a few years ago, the turbines don’t actually take the place of coal power generation – they’re additional to it. So, in other words, so long as the desal plan continues to turn sea water into crappy tapwater, the turbines are hardly very ‘green’ at all as their effect on coal consumption is zilch

So, in other words, so long as the desal plan continues to turn sea water into utterly pure tapwater, the turbines are incredibly ‘green’ as their effect on coal consumption is reduce it by precisely the amount that would be required if the electricity wasn’t being sourced from wind power.

Holden Caulfield said :

Thoroughly Smashed said :

Holden Caulfield said :

OpenYourMind said :

Next thing we’ll be hearing that old furphy about windmills being bird killers.

Yeah, I’m with you mate. Some crazy tried to tell me the earth is round the other day. I just laughed.

Causes of Bird Fatalities

Supporting evidence that birds are killed by wind turbine strikes. Thanks. 😉

Happy for people to argue over the significance of the numbers killed (or predicted to be killed), I’m not really all that fussed. Suffice to say it’s enough of a concern to be affecting approvals on wind farm developments being made in Australia today.

The chart you supplied doesn’t take in account the species of birds being killed and therefore cannot determine if any predicted losses are to endangered species. Whether you like it or not, those things do matter.

I love birds. All for protecting them. But if I were asked to ceremonially sacrifice 1 near-extinct bird a year to allow wind powered electricity generation, I would start sharpening my ceremonial cleaver.

On the other hand, I laughed so much when the airport extension was stopped because of the earless dragon or corroberree frog or whatever endangered little creature it was. Just as an example of how people who will use the enviromental argument when it suits them only.

A bit of pragmatism can go a long way…

Thoroughly Smashed said :

Holden Caulfield said :

OpenYourMind said :

Next thing we’ll be hearing that old furphy about windmills being bird killers.

Yeah, I’m with you mate. Some crazy tried to tell me the earth is round the other day. I just laughed.

Causes of Bird Fatalities

Supporting evidence that birds are killed by wind turbine strikes. Thanks. 😉

Happy for people to argue over the significance of the numbers killed (or predicted to be killed), I’m not really all that fussed. Suffice to say it’s enough of a concern to be affecting approvals on wind farm developments being made in Australia today.

The chart you supplied doesn’t take in account the species of birds being killed and therefore cannot determine if any predicted losses are to endangered species. Whether you like it or not, those things do matter.

Thoroughly Smashed said :

Holden Caulfield said :

OpenYourMind said :

Next thing we’ll be hearing that old furphy about windmills being bird killers.

Yeah, I’m with you mate. Some crazy tried to tell me the earth is round the other day. I just laughed.

Causes of Bird Fatalities

Ban windows!

I remember they did a study on this before they built those first wind tubines because there were concerns about the effect on some endangered parrot. In the conclusion of the study the risk of one of those parrots being killed by the turbines was estimated at – wait for it – 1 bird a year. Maybe.

I would find the study if I weren’t so lazy.

I also like the look of wind turbines. I think they add to the landscape and don’t distract from it.

Holden Caulfield said :

OpenYourMind said :

Next thing we’ll be hearing that old furphy about windmills being bird killers.

Yeah, I’m with you mate. Some crazy tried to tell me the earth is round the other day. I just laughed.

Causes of Bird Fatalities

AAMC said :

krats said :

Deref said :

peterepete said :

i think its a bit arrogant to dismiss all claims of adverse health impacts without evidence – we have some anecdotal claims that they are a hazard and they should be evaluated. The real problem with these is the increased rotational speed of the globe as a result of all these propellers spinning. It is shortening our days and will muck up our entire ecology – not to mention have you ever noticed how time seems to be speeding up over the years since these things started going up?

😀 Gold.

I think they’re elegant structures. Something I’ve been wondering, though, is what happened to the vertical turbines that were reported to be more efficient as well as cheaper to build and maintain. Does anyone know?

They Were Found To Cause Fading Of Curtains And Chop Up Birds!!

From memory vertical turbines are only more efficient once rotating but require kick starting via an auxiliary power source (think starter motor or pump priming); where as a ‘traditional turbine simply turns into the wind and begins to rotate once the sufficient wind speed is achieved.

So I assume that the traditional turbine is a smarter economic position – less infrastructure, more reliable, minor compromise on operating efficiency, etc.

it’s been a little while since i worked in the energy space but wind turbines are not used as baseload power – they are more used for peak ‘filler’ when baseload isn’t enough to satisfy demand. so yes they are kickstarted as a fast energy source – coal-fired generation facilities are going all the time because once they are powered down, they actually take days to restart.

as for current wind turbines not being that fabulous in terms of efficiency/ROI – they are an emerging and improving technology so one would think they’d improve in efficiency (tech improvement through R&D) and ROI over time. if we’re serious about moving towards renewables (and we have to be, let’s really get serious!!) then there will be some hit and miss to start with but the investment is worth it for our long term future.

and i still maintain they look stunning. i’d be happy to live right underneath one!

krats said :

Deref said :

peterepete said :

i think its a bit arrogant to dismiss all claims of adverse health impacts without evidence – we have some anecdotal claims that they are a hazard and they should be evaluated. The real problem with these is the increased rotational speed of the globe as a result of all these propellers spinning. It is shortening our days and will muck up our entire ecology – not to mention have you ever noticed how time seems to be speeding up over the years since these things started going up?

😀 Gold.

I think they’re elegant structures. Something I’ve been wondering, though, is what happened to the vertical turbines that were reported to be more efficient as well as cheaper to build and maintain. Does anyone know?

They Were Found To Cause Fading Of Curtains And Chop Up Birds!!

From memory vertical turbines are only more efficient once rotating but require kick starting via an auxiliary power source (think starter motor or pump priming); where as a ‘traditional turbine simply turns into the wind and begins to rotate once the sufficient wind speed is achieved.

So I assume that the traditional turbine is a smarter economic position – less infrastructure, more reliable, minor compromise on operating efficiency, etc.

Deref said :

I think they’re elegant structures. Something I’ve been wondering, though, is what happened to the vertical turbines that were reported to be more efficient as well as cheaper to build and maintain. Does anyone know?

Sorry for the double post. I’ve been known to read into such power extraction techniques, and these vertical blade arrangements don’t look like being feasible any time soon. These ones flap and vibrate to a point where the materials used become prohibitively expensive. If you’re interested, search the googlenet for flapping blade wind turbines to see what the future looks like…. maybe.

NoAddedMSG said :

In the end, living on a hillside with constant wind was a bit of a drag though..

Ha.

Thoroughly Smashed said :

EvanJames said :

the low-frequency sound emitted by the turbines actually harms the people living nearby.[citation needed]

+1

Deref said :

peterepete said :

i think its a bit arrogant to dismiss all claims of adverse health impacts without evidence – we have some anecdotal claims that they are a hazard and they should be evaluated. The real problem with these is the increased rotational speed of the globe as a result of all these propellers spinning. It is shortening our days and will muck up our entire ecology – not to mention have you ever noticed how time seems to be speeding up over the years since these things started going up?

😀 Gold.

I think they’re elegant structures. Something I’ve been wondering, though, is what happened to the vertical turbines that were reported to be more efficient as well as cheaper to build and maintain. Does anyone know?

They Were Found To Cause Fading Of Curtains And Chop Up Birds!!

As others have said, I wonder if we’ll actually get to use this power, or if Sydney council will find some power-hungry project to gobble it all up before its even generated?

Id also like to see at least part of one of these wind farms opened up to the public, rather than only being able to see them from across Lake George, or on the occasional day the farmers decide to have an ‘open day’ and let us citizens see what our tax monies are going towards.

peterepete said :

i think its a bit arrogant to dismiss all claims of adverse health impacts without evidence – we have some anecdotal claims that they are a hazard and they should be evaluated. The real problem with these is the increased rotational speed of the globe as a result of all these propellers spinning. It is shortening our days and will muck up our entire ecology – not to mention have you ever noticed how time seems to be speeding up over the years since these things started going up?

😀 Gold.

I think they’re elegant structures. Something I’ve been wondering, though, is what happened to the vertical turbines that were reported to be more efficient as well as cheaper to build and maintain. Does anyone know?

http://www.myvidster.com/video/2312927/Daily_Show_16100_Pt_3_-_The_Daily_Show_with_Jon_Stewart_-_080211_-_Video_Clip_Comedy_Central

I’ve lived near a very large windfarm in NZ, and it was fine. Sometimes if the wind blew in the right direction you could hear something which might have been the turbines, but it was nothing compared with the noise the wind made rattling all the windows in the house. In the end, living on a hillside with constant wind was a bit of a drag though..

Thoroughly Smashed said :

EvanJames said :

the low-frequency sound emitted by the turbines actually harms the people living nearby.[citation needed]

There Are No Pictures…So Read The Words Slowly.There Will Be Questions When You Have Finished.

http://www.ehjournal.net/content/10/1/78

welkin31 said :

enrique, I asked my questions because there are a multitude of talented people reading RiotAct – some of who may have relevant information.
Let me just point you to webpages where you can make charts of the performance of various windfarms –
http://windfarmperformance.info/
I like the chart at the bottom of the page, right hand side of the pair – comparing wind power supply with total demand for power across the NEM regions (NSW, Qld, SA, Tas and Vic) for the calendar year 2010.
Showing supply on the same scale as demand.
Sort of gets wind power in perspective.

I still don’t understand what you are saying. In your first comment you were asking about subsidies, in this second comment you are pointing us off to another site that has a graph charting supply of wind power against total demand for power.

What are you trying to tell us?

i think its a bit arrogant to dismiss all claims of adverse health impacts without evidence – we have some anecdotal claims that they are a hazard and they should be evaluated. The real problem with these is the increased rotational speed of the globe as a result of all these propellers spinning. It is shortening our days and will muck up our entire ecology – not to mention have you ever noticed how time seems to be speeding up over the years since these things started going up?

EvanJames said :

What is emerging (from this and other wind farms) is that the low-frequency sound emitted by the turbines actually harms the people living nearby. Some people have had to actually leave their properties and live further away, returning to the properties to work, the health effects are so severe.

I believe the symptoms described by these people are synonymous with Nimby Neo-Luddite Disease.

Prescribed cure: stop listening to Alan Jones, take a deep breath and chillax

The crazy thing is all the energy generated around Lake George goes to offset power consumed by an expensive and powerhungry Sydney desal plant that’s no longer needed, yet runs 24h/per day anyway. It’s one hungry beast.

Given the desal plant wasn’t there a few years ago, the turbines don’t actually take the place of coal power generation – they’re additional to it. So, in other words, so long as the desal plan continues to turn sea water into crappy tapwater, the turbines are hardly very ‘green’ at all as their effect on coal consumption is zilch

Went down for a MC ride through Bungendore and past the wind turbines to The loaded dog pub in Tarago the other week. The turbines make for an awesome backdrop on a ride that’s for sure.

Bird killers. A bloke who worked at a coal fired power plant has seen entire flocks of birds sucked in the air intake for the furnaces. They also go in in ones and twos and they come out the chimney a few seconds later in gaseous form.

bobzed57 said :

While they might be all goodness and light for the environment, they sure are visual polution.

Anyone who whinges about visual pollution from wind turbines has never been for a drive up the New England Highway through Muswellbrook and Singleton. I was astounded by how much coal fired power has destroyed the landscape there.

OpenYourMind said :

Next thing we’ll be hearing that old furphy about windmills being bird killers.

Yeah, I’m with you mate. Some crazy tried to tell me the earth is round the other day. I just laughed.

bobzed57 said :

While they might be all goodness and light for the environment, they sure are visual polution.

you’re kidding, right? ‘sure are’ to who?? they’re architectural bliss. suggest you go to aldi, or target, or somewhere and get a life. sure there’s one going cheap.

qbngeek said :

bobzed57 said :

While they might be all goodness and light for the environment, they sure are visual polution.

I reckon they look awesome, I can see hills anywhere I go. My kids love to see them too.

Check out what they’ve done in the Southern Flinders Ranges. Ah the serenity.

qbngeek said :

bobzed57 said :

While they might be all goodness and light for the environment, they sure are visual polution.

I reckon they look awesome, I can see hills anywhere I go. My kids love to see them too.

Absolutely – the landscape is still there, and this adds interest and is a renewable source of energy to boot.

As man-made structures go, I think they look pretty good. Elegant, even. There are plenty of houses around the place that are worse eyesores.

bobzed57 said :

While they might be all goodness and light for the environment, they sure are visual polution.

no way – i think they are stunning!

bobzed57 said :

While they might be all goodness and light for the environment, they sure are visual polution.

That’s surely a matter of opinion, I quite like them. The noise pollution is a lie, as is the bird killing claim. Conventional power generation is much more harmful. I quote as much citation as anyone else has.

enrique, I asked my questions because there are a multitude of talented people reading RiotAct – some of who may have relevant information.
Let me just point you to webpages where you can make charts of the performance of various windfarms –
http://windfarmperformance.info/
I like the chart at the bottom of the page, right hand side of the pair – comparing wind power supply with total demand for power across the NEM regions (NSW, Qld, SA, Tas and Vic) for the calendar year 2010.
Showing supply on the same scale as demand.
Sort of gets wind power in perspective.

Personally, i think they look fine.

However afaik they have a high pitched noise (that certain people can’t hear) and it makes some people sick.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/special_eds/20110725/wind/

There was an ABC doco recently. Farmers who were profiting 90,000+ a year from the wind turbines were living within a few hundred metres with no ill-effects, and pointed out that their livestock were happily munching grass and sleeping right beneath the turbines. Farmers who had missed out were complaining of health problems.

Wind turbines to cause a genuine health hazard. It is called anemomenophobia; or the fear of wind turbines. It is a crippling psychological condition where people think that they can be negatively affected by a rotating piece of metal.

bobzed57 said :

While they might be all goodness and light for the environment, they sure are visual polution.

I reckon they look awesome, I can see hills anywhere I go. My kids love to see them too.

EvanJames said :

What is emerging (from this and other wind farms) is that the low-frequency sound emitted by the turbines actually harms the people living nearby. Some people have had to actually leave their properties and live further away, returning to the properties to work, the health effects are so severe.

The world is yet to see any evidence that this is true, apart from the word of people who are pissed off that they didn’t make any money out of the wind farms. Mind you, there is evidence out there that proves it to be a load of crap.

It is a load of rubbish and is only supported by the gullible and the people mentioned above.

While they might be all goodness and light for the environment, they sure are visual polution.

EvanJames said :

the low-frequency sound emitted by the turbines actually harms the people living nearby.[citation needed]

EvanJames said :

What is emerging (from this and other wind farms) is that the low-frequency sound emitted by the turbines actually harms the people living nearby. Some people have had to actually leave their properties and live further away, returning to the properties to work, the health effects are so severe.

My response to them is too bad, so sad. Saw an interview with one of these people once, puffing away on a cigarette while complaining about the wind turbine noise a mile away. Please.
Fact is there’s many other sources of low frequency noise worse than that of wind turbines. The greater benefit of renewable energy outweighs the displacement of a few nutjobs, at least some of whom are simply using sickness as an excuse to save their countryside views.

EvanJames, I’ve heard that this low level noise is quite remarkable. It only targets those who aren’t getting a bite of the windmill farmland cherry.

Next thing we’ll be hearing that old furphy about windmills being bird killers. I think they may well fade your curtains as well.

That wind farm was originally built to meet the considerable power needs of the Sydney water desalination plant. What is emerging (from this and other wind farms) is that the low-frequency sound emitted by the turbines actually harms the people living nearby. Some people have had to actually leave their properties and live further away, returning to the properties to work, the health effects are so severe.

welkin31 said :

Anybody have an idea what these 41 proposed new turbines will cost the taxpayer in subsidies ?
I wonder what subsidies are paid to the existing wind farm.

Your point being?

Most of the funding is private, from my understanding of these projects.

Anybody have an idea what these 41 proposed new turbines will cost the taxpayer in subsidies ?
I wonder what subsidies are paid to the existing wind farm.