Do on-road cycling lanes need a rethink?

…Northbourne might be improved in years to come but a simple solution would be to put a raised rubber lane divider between the car lane and cycle lane, at least through intersections. Turning cars would have to negotiate a speed hump type divider which might discourage cars from trying to beat cyclists and pedestrians through intersections and warn non turning vehicles if they are drifting into cycle lanes….

Seriously? A raised rubber strip to demark the lanes through intersections? It hurts just to think about what that would do to a motorcyclist trying to make a turn in wet weather.

tim_c said :

bryansworld said :

I’m a regular commuter cyclist, but think it is too risky to use on-road bike lanes – excelt where they are physically separated, like the the Civic Cycle Loop. BTW the Bunda Street revamp is not working. Cars still travle too fast, and pedestrians are (understandably) too timid to assert their right of way!

So it’s pretty much the same as any other “shared zone” in Canberra then?

Worse I think, because there isn’t adequate infrastructure in the redevelopment to cue motorists that it is not a normal road. Keeping the parking down both sides of Bunda Street deson’t help either.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Rollersk8r said :

farnarkler said :

Rollersk8r are you aware there is a very nice cycle path 500m away meandering through O’Connor and Turner? There are nice traffic lights at Macarthur Ave and Wattle St and a zebra crossing at David street.

If you don’t know about it, may I suggest you try it. Minimal exposure to cars and no buses.

Yes I am aware – and I regularly weigh up the risks. I work at the Glebe Park end of Civic and Northbourne saves me as much as 10 minutes each way.

Another confirmation that cyclists are indeed only interested in getting from A to B as quickly as possible, accepting risk of injury for just 10 measly minutes even if a safer alternative is provided.

Unlike all the motorists who blitz down the Tuggeranong Parkway instead of taking the perfectly good Lady Denman Dr just nearby – don’t you know there are generally less crashes on Lady Denman Dr?

Bajar said :

I was struck once, maybe twice per week by cyclists on the footpath….

You need to learn to share the shared path, that’s why it’s called a “shared” path, because it’s a path that is for shared use. Leave room for other path users, that includes cyclists and other pedestrians.

Secondly, if a cyclist is approaching, don’t try to “get out of their way” – you should already be walking in such a position that you are sharing the path and allowing adequate space for other path users (refer above) – by the time you are aware of an approaching cyclist, he/she has almost certainly planned to go around you, if you move, you’ll more than likely walking INTO their path around where you WERE walking.

Just keep left and stay left and nobody gets hurt – and don’t forget to look first if you’re entering, crossing or leaving the shared path.

bryansworld said :

I’m a regular commuter cyclist, but think it is too risky to use on-road bike lanes – excelt where they are physically separated, like the the Civic Cycle Loop. BTW the Bunda Street revamp is not working. Cars still travle too fast, and pedestrians are (understandably) too timid to assert their right of way!

So it’s pretty much the same as any other “shared zone” in Canberra then?

OpenYourMind said :

Bajar said :

Ezy said :

Bajar said :

I was struck once, maybe twice per week by cyclists on the footpath.

You were struck… As in they hit you? As in literally rammed into you – did you fall, were you hurt? And this was happening to you once or twice a week?

REALLY?

REALLY?

Yes, really. Usually a clip on the arm. One occasion I was rammed into – resulted in a police report. Of course, nothing was done.

Either you are very unlucky or a little economical with the truth. I’ve been a cycle path user (cyclist, runner and walker) and in 35 years I’ve never so much as been brushed by a cyclist.

Same here. I have often walked on the paths and have never been clipped by a cyclist; not even close. But then I keep left and look behind me before changing direction. I have to agree with
OpenYourMind here. Although perhaps you don’t keep left, change direction without checking behind, wander all over the path and wear earphones. This would increase your chances of being hit. Otherwise, I don’t believe you.

Bajar said :

Ezy said :

Bajar said :

I was struck once, maybe twice per week by cyclists on the footpath.

You were struck… As in they hit you? As in literally rammed into you – did you fall, were you hurt? And this was happening to you once or twice a week?

REALLY?

REALLY?

Yes, really. Usually a clip on the arm. One occasion I was rammed into – resulted in a police report. Of course, nothing was done.

Either you are very unlucky or a little economical with the truth. I’ve been a cycle path user (cyclist, runner and walker) and in 35 years I’ve never so much as been brushed by a cyclist.

Ezy said :

Bajar said :

I was struck once, maybe twice per week by cyclists on the footpath.

You were struck… As in they hit you? As in literally rammed into you – did you fall, were you hurt? And this was happening to you once or twice a week?

REALLY?

REALLY?

Yes, really. Usually a clip on the arm. One occasion I was rammed into – resulted in a police report. Of course, nothing was done.

Pork Hunt said :

Rollersk8r said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Rollersk8r said :

farnarkler said :

Rollersk8r are you aware there is a very nice cycle path 500m away meandering through O’Connor and Turner? There are nice traffic lights at Macarthur Ave and Wattle St and a zebra crossing at David street.

If you don’t know about it, may I suggest you try it. Minimal exposure to cars and no buses.

Yes I am aware – and I regularly weigh up the risks. I work at the Glebe Park end of Civic and Northbourne saves me as much as 10 minutes each way.

Another confirmation that cyclists are indeed only interested in getting from A to B as quickly as possible, accepting risk of injury for just 10 measly minutes even if a safer alternative is provided.

Haha! Yes, speed is my only concern. Damn every single cyclist who leaves their car at home and takes the quickest route! Damn them all!

Are people cycling for exercise or because they have short arms and long pockets and won’t pay for parking. If for exercise, go the long way, after all, no pain no gain…

Problem solved – if we all just accepted longer equals more exercise, then why have cycle lanes at all?

Minz said :

Everyone just needs to chill out a bit. I’ve driven and cycled for years in Canberra, and, frankly, 99.9% of the time, the annoying unaware people getting in my way when I’m driving are other drivers. Cyclists, in my driving experience, are generally on the bike paths and hence not in my way.

Exactly. Unless you drive in on-road cycle lanes, you’re not being blocked, and it takes minimal skill to pass a cyclist safely and with little if any delay in suburban streets. The only time it’s a problem is when a driver lacking initiative won’t pass a cyclist. So even then it’s the driver blocking you, not the cyclist. Yes, there are some idiot cyclists that ride in an unreasonable manner, but they are occasional compared to the cars and trucks that do the overwhelming majority of the blocking on our roads.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Minz said :

When cycling, pedestrians are pretty scary. The number of times I’ve had to brake for a pedestrian suddenly changing direction without looking on the shared paths (after I’ve rung my bell) is just scary. I’ve tried talking to them instead, but then they get the sh**s because I haven’t used my bell… can’t win! I’ve also been yelled at for riding on the left on a shared path when a pedestrian wanted to walk in the same lane, in the opposite direction. On the other hand, cyclists riding on footpaths have to assume that there’s going to be people coming out of doors, and do so very carefully. We’ve all got to be a little sensible for this sharing thing to work… and it’s pretty challenging apparently!

To be sensible on the shared paths, treat the pedestrians as if they were children, likely to dart off at any moment. A bell ring might alert them, but could also surprise them and cause them to jump into your path. In most cases the pedestrians have got their music plugged in and won’t be able to hear your bell anyway. In my opinion the following steps would make for safer sharing of these paths.
– Get off the path altogether which is what I do, so there is no risk of collision. Cyclist have lobbied the government to force passing cars to give a 1 meter safety barrier, why shouldn’t this also be applied to pedestrians when bikes go flying past? The speed differentials are similar and likely outcomes of a collision are hospitalization.
– Reducing your speed also is a sensible thing to do, because passing within 50cm at 30km/h is simply too dangerous.

No argument about cyclists taking care around other users, but you are comparing apples to oranges. Cyclists don’t completely occupy one, or both lanes of traffic, at regular intervals like pedestrians are prone to do, and the average width of a road lane is 2.5 to 3.5 meters. A shared path is about half that. But feel free to ignore these obvious differences. It only reflects on you and your capacity to reason.

And don’t whine about cyclists wanting to use on-road cycleways to get from A to B when you would have them riding OFF a shared path irrespective of what tires they had, and at reduced speed. If you were made to do that in a car, even without the extra physical effort, I know you wouldn’t spare us from your shrill protests.

Minz said :

When cycling, pedestrians are pretty scary. The number of times I’ve had to brake for a pedestrian suddenly changing direction without looking on the shared paths (after I’ve rung my bell) is just scary. I’ve tried talking to them instead, but then they get the sh**s because I haven’t used my bell… can’t win! I’ve also been yelled at for riding on the left on a shared path when a pedestrian wanted to walk in the same lane, in the opposite direction. On the other hand, cyclists riding on footpaths have to assume that there’s going to be people coming out of doors, and do so very carefully. We’ve all got to be a little sensible for this sharing thing to work… and it’s pretty challenging apparently!

To be sensible on the shared paths, treat the pedestrians as if they were children, likely to dart off at any moment. A bell ring might alert them, but could also surprise them and cause them to jump into your path. In most cases the pedestrians have got their music plugged in and won’t be able to hear your bell anyway. In my opinion the following steps would make for safer sharing of these paths.
– Get off the path altogether which is what I do, so there is no risk of collision. Cyclist have lobbied the government to force passing cars to give a 1 meter safety barrier, why shouldn’t this also be applied to pedestrians when bikes go flying past? The speed differentials are similar and likely outcomes of a collision are hospitalization.
– Reducing your speed also is a sensible thing to do, because passing within 50cm at 30km/h is simply too dangerous.

As a driver for 70% of the time and a cyclist for 30% of the time, I think on-road cycling lanes have made a massive difference. I lobbied hard to get one built on Glenora Drive near the airport. For a long time, it was difficult for cars to safely pass bicycles, now they each have their own lane and it is much, much safer and easier for all. Same goes for Adelaide Ave.

Canberra is the cycling city. We have great cycling facilities and we need to continue our cities embracing of cycling and improvement of cycling facilities including on-road cycling.

Everyone just needs to chill out a bit. I’ve driven and cycled for years in Canberra, and, frankly, 99.9% of the time, the annoying unaware people getting in my way when I’m driving are other drivers. Cyclists, in my driving experience, are generally on the bike paths and hence not in my way. Which is great, because it means I’ve got more space on the road (‘cos they’re not driving on it), and more car parks available when I get to my destination. It’s a win-win. All it takes is both sides to be a little sensible, and it can work quite easily.

When cycling, pedestrians are pretty scary. The number of times I’ve had to brake for a pedestrian suddenly changing direction without looking on the shared paths (after I’ve rung my bell) is just scary. I’ve tried talking to them instead, but then they get the sh**s because I haven’t used my bell… can’t win! I’ve also been yelled at for riding on the left on a shared path when a pedestrian wanted to walk in the same lane, in the opposite direction. On the other hand, cyclists riding on footpaths have to assume that there’s going to be people coming out of doors, and do so very carefully. We’ve all got to be a little sensible for this sharing thing to work… and it’s pretty challenging apparently!

Rollersk8r said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Rollersk8r said :

farnarkler said :

Rollersk8r are you aware there is a very nice cycle path 500m away meandering through O’Connor and Turner? There are nice traffic lights at Macarthur Ave and Wattle St and a zebra crossing at David street.

If you don’t know about it, may I suggest you try it. Minimal exposure to cars and no buses.

Yes I am aware – and I regularly weigh up the risks. I work at the Glebe Park end of Civic and Northbourne saves me as much as 10 minutes each way.

Another confirmation that cyclists are indeed only interested in getting from A to B as quickly as possible, accepting risk of injury for just 10 measly minutes even if a safer alternative is provided.

Haha! Yes, speed is my only concern. Damn every single cyclist who leaves their car at home and takes the quickest route! Damn them all!

Are people cycling for exercise or because they have short arms and long pockets and won’t pay for parking. If for exercise, go the long way, after all, no pain no gain…

bryansworld said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

bryansworld said :

Cars still travle too fast, and pedestrians are (understandably) too timid to assert their right of way!

Regardless of the law, as a pedestrian I will generally come out worst off in a collision with a vehicle (bicycle, car, truck, whatever).

I’ll stick with managed risk rather than moral high ground.

Am I advocating suicide? No. I was trying to make the point that the Bunda Street revamp needs more work if it is to function as intended. Please excuse my lack of eloquence. 🙂

You’re excused. 🙂

To me, this is the same old issue. There are plenty of motorists and cyclists who use the roads sensibly and share without any problems. Occasionally you get one or the other do something dumb, which causes a near miss (or hit), and tongues set to wagging.

As I’ve said on here before, a little bit of common sense and courtesy on the roads goes a long way.

bryansworld said :

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

bryansworld said :

Cars still travle too fast, and pedestrians are (understandably) too timid to assert their right of way!

Regardless of the law, as a pedestrian I will generally come out worst off in a collision with a vehicle (bicycle, car, truck, whatever).

I’ll stick with managed risk rather than moral high ground.

Am I advocating suicide? No. I was trying to make the point that the Bunda Street revamp needs more work if it is to function as intended. Please excuse my lack of eloquence. 🙂

I travel regularly across North Canberra. I actually opt for Bunda Street over cycling through the streets of Braddon, because the later is chracterised by faster traffic and more congested intersections. I’m managing that risk!

rubaiyat said :

Rollersk8r said :

Haha! Yes, speed is my only concern. Damn every single cyclist who leaves their car at home and takes the quickest route! Damn them all!

Yes. Gat back in your car, the only place where getting from A to B as fast as possible is acceptable! 😉

Yep, how dare those cyclists leave the off-road bike path and venture into Krazy Kar World a.k.a. 99.9% of Kanberra…

VYBerlinaV8_is_back said :

bryansworld said :

Cars still travle too fast, and pedestrians are (understandably) too timid to assert their right of way!

Regardless of the law, as a pedestrian I will generally come out worst off in a collision with a vehicle (bicycle, car, truck, whatever).

I’ll stick with managed risk rather than moral high ground.

Am I advocating suicide? No. I was trying to make the point that the Bunda Street revamp needs more work if it is to function as intended. Please excuse my lack of eloquence. 🙂

wildturkeycanoe said :

Rollersk8r said :

farnarkler said :

Rollersk8r are you aware there is a very nice cycle path 500m away meandering through O’Connor and Turner? There are nice traffic lights at Macarthur Ave and Wattle St and a zebra crossing at David street.

If you don’t know about it, may I suggest you try it. Minimal exposure to cars and no buses.

Yes I am aware – and I regularly weigh up the risks. I work at the Glebe Park end of Civic and Northbourne saves me as much as 10 minutes each way.

Another confirmation that cyclists are indeed only interested in getting from A to B as quickly as possible, accepting risk of injury for just 10 measly minutes even if a safer alternative is provided.

Trying to get from A to B as quickly as possible on a bike usually leads to getting to A&E instead.

Rollersk8r said :

Haha! Yes, speed is my only concern. Damn every single cyclist who leaves their car at home and takes the quickest route! Damn them all!

Yes. Gat back in your car, the only place where getting from A to B as fast as possible is acceptable! 😉

I’m back in Canberra after a few years away and really shocked at the surface quality of the shared paths/’cycle paths’. I remembered them as bad, but they’re even worse than I remember. I think that it you were to ask commuting cyclists why they don’t use these paths, the surface quality would rate highly amongst those reasons. An example – there is a particular (deciduous) tree which has been planted in great numbers along many of these shared paths (particularly in the Woden Valley) in order to give a windbreak. The problem is that this tree also grows a wide, shallow root system that breaks up the path and corrugates it. The path itself is only a few cm deep and happily changes shape for the root. Roads, on the other hand, are several times thicker and much more resistant to corrugation. Today, given that the trees in question had dropped all of their leaves at this time of year, covering the path and hiding the cracks and corrugations that they had made for me, I had a fairly unenjoyable time of having my bike and body bashed and buffeted by the ‘world class’ cycling infrastructure between Woden and Scrivener dam. I’ll take Adelaide Avenue next time, thanks.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Rollersk8r said :

farnarkler said :

Rollersk8r are you aware there is a very nice cycle path 500m away meandering through O’Connor and Turner? There are nice traffic lights at Macarthur Ave and Wattle St and a zebra crossing at David street.

If you don’t know about it, may I suggest you try it. Minimal exposure to cars and no buses.

Yes I am aware – and I regularly weigh up the risks. I work at the Glebe Park end of Civic and Northbourne saves me as much as 10 minutes each way.

Another confirmation that cyclists are indeed only interested in getting from A to B as quickly as possible, accepting risk of injury for just 10 measly minutes even if a safer alternative is provided.

Haha! Yes, speed is my only concern. Damn every single cyclist who leaves their car at home and takes the quickest route! Damn them all!

Rollersk8r said :

farnarkler said :

Rollersk8r are you aware there is a very nice cycle path 500m away meandering through O’Connor and Turner? There are nice traffic lights at Macarthur Ave and Wattle St and a zebra crossing at David street.

If you don’t know about it, may I suggest you try it. Minimal exposure to cars and no buses.

Yes I am aware – and I regularly weigh up the risks. I work at the Glebe Park end of Civic and Northbourne saves me as much as 10 minutes each way.

Another confirmation that cyclists are indeed only interested in getting from A to B as quickly as possible, accepting risk of injury for just 10 measly minutes even if a safer alternative is provided.

farnarkler said :

Rollersk8r are you aware there is a very nice cycle path 500m away meandering through O’Connor and Turner? There are nice traffic lights at Macarthur Ave and Wattle St and a zebra crossing at David street.

If you don’t know about it, may I suggest you try it. Minimal exposure to cars and no buses.

Yes I am aware – and I regularly weigh up the risks. I work at the Glebe Park end of Civic and Northbourne saves me as much as 10 minutes each way.

bryansworld said :

Cars still travle too fast, and pedestrians are (understandably) too timid to assert their right of way!

Regardless of the law, as a pedestrian I will generally come out worst off in a collision with a vehicle (bicycle, car, truck, whatever).

I’ll stick with managed risk rather than moral high ground.

Bajar said :

I was struck once, maybe twice per week by cyclists on the footpath.

You were struck… As in they hit you? As in literally rammed into you – did you fall, were you hurt? And this was happening to you once or twice a week?

REALLY?

REALLY?

I’m a regular commuter cyclist, but think it is too risky to use on-road bike lanes – excelt where they are physically separated, like the the Civic Cycle Loop. BTW the Bunda Street revamp is not working. Cars still travle too fast, and pedestrians are (understandably) too timid to assert their right of way!

My experience as both a pedestrian and a motorist, I find that the cycle lanes on the road are very hazardous. They are so hazardous, I notice around 40% of cyclists use the footpaths. When I walked that route, I was struck once, maybe twice per week by cyclists on the footpath. A separate, barriered zone would probably be better – keeping both parties safe.

I don’t commute using the Northbourne cycle lanes these days, but when I did:

Slow down approaching the intersections
Headcheck and look for indicators
Prepare and act as if you’re going to be cut off. Hand over the front brake lever.

I was cut off so many times, but never involved in an accident.

It sucks you have to ride like this, but it’s par for the course when you consider how attentive the average driver is.

wildturkeycanoe said :

jcjordan,
“With all the blind corners, narrow turns the chances of hitting someone is fairly high and if you look at hospital data represent over 75% of cyclist admissions.””…. I am surprised that any of them will go near them if they plan to do speeds above 20km/hr.”
Well, cyclists should ride to suit the conditions and slow down if there are hazards. Perhaps cyclists should also be speed limited for the safety of everybody on the shared paths. Even if you had a super cycleway exclusively for two wheels only, you will eventually catch up to someone going slower due to a hill or their lack of stamina. Are you going to complain then and tell them to get off the road? What happens when cycling kicks off and everybody is doing it, clogging up the cycleways and forcing everybody to slow down? Just as drivers have to slow down due to the number of vehicles on the roads and are being told frequently on forums not to get agro, why should cyclists take on the same persona and start making “path rage” a common term? I want to drive fast too but there are all these cyclists cluttering up my road!

I dont want the paths exclusively for bikes, but for the very reasons I pointed out I don’t use them and neither will most commuter cyclists who want to travel at any reasonable pace.

wildturkeycanoe said :

“The raised lanes in and around civic are a separate matter as these are actually cycle paths or lanes. The fact that they are nearly useless due to all the pedestrians that walk across them without looking or stand there chatting means that you are better off on the road where you can travel at a decent pace.”
Now you are complaining about pedestrians cutting you off while you are riding on “your” lane. Do you see now how drivers feel about cyclists on the roads, always cutting across and getting in the way of their “own” designated path? As for the last bit, wanting to get onto the roads and do a “decent pace” in the city is downright dangerous and selfish. In your next sentence you yourself admit the traffic in the city is “the worst place to ride” and “narrow, full of rubbish and drivers turn left without warning”, yet you want to get amongst it so you can go faster. That is simply begging for an accident to happen.

I really don’t get your point. The raised cycle paths are a bad design which creates a conflict zone unnecessarily because they have slapped them for the most part right in the middle of a area which should be for pedestrians only. The on road bike lane along Northbourne is a problem because its hard for cyclist to use it and stay out of the space that cars are trying to use

wildturkeycanoe said :

The benefits of cycling in terms of getting to places faster by beating the traffic are only available if you break the law by going through “Do Not Walk” signs and red traffic lights. If you obeyed the rules I’d be confident a car would be a quicker way, especially if riding from several suburbs away. Cyclists have been given fantastic off-road facilities as well as the on-road option. Safety concerns are surely valid but contributing to these issues is the self righteous attitude of the cyclists who think they should have right of way over everybody else, be allowed to break,bend or change the rules because they are better for the environment.

Where did I ask to go faster anywhere then a car or to be excluded by the road rules.

wildturkeycanoe said :

We are not the Netherlands and without mother nature doing some serious earth bending never will be. We can’t put in Fietspads without the government buying up people’s houses, digging up infrastructure and completely re-designing Mr. Burley Griffin’s vision of Canberra. We will never have a European style public demand for cycling whilst travel distances to and from work are around 30km, way too far with our steep inclines separating the suburbs from employment centers.
It is also not in the government’s interest to support a huge increase in cycling. The lost revenue from registrations, insurances, public transport, fuel excise, carbon tax, parking fees, parking fines etc, will not be recoverable even from introducing some sort of cycle tax, especially if millions needs to be spent on some kind of cycling network to enable hundreds of thousands to pedal everywhere. The only reason for our current cycling expenditure is vote buying, as the noise from the two-wheeled lobby is obviously loud enough to warrant “some” action, probably the cheapest option no doubt.

I love when people quote the Netherlands or Amsterdam with no real concept of the terrain or climate. The majority of what we see quoted in the media (by both sides of the argument) is a very small element of their cycling infrastructure around the main CBD areas which have had quite a bit of infrastructure built into. This has also been done in a large number of European cities many of which have climbs steeper and longer than anything that you see here in Canberra. Outside of CBD’s much of what they have is like what we have here with on road lanes.
You do realise that registration and public transport actually cost the government money to implement. Also fines and taxes on petrol are not particularly good revenue raisers in terms of the cost to generate the revenue and it relies on the premise that people will break laws to meet expectations. The reason that many cities across Europe and parts of Nth America are trying to move away from the personal car is the overall impact cost on society. The wasted space in terms of meeting infrastructure needs and the overall impact on the health system are proving to unsustainable.
Which is why your vote buying argument is not a strong one, but you are right in that some of slap dash nature of some of the current plans does seem to be trying to achieve that result.

wildturkeycanoe said :

To the author’s question about a separated cycle lane on the same route as the tram, why would the government build something adjacent the tram that is going to compete against it and directly reduce it’s revenue stream? Space on that particular route is already at a premium, the land just isn’t available as they already have to purchase substantial sections to install the tram infrastructure. Even if viable cyclists would be subject to the same problem as cars on that route, being the long wait at traffic lights due to the tram’s right of way and east west traffic building up. I doubt cyclists would be able to go any faster than the tram without breaking laws on the way.
An alternative is to extend the Sullivan’s creek cycle path northward, linking Gungahlin to Lyneham. I’d be in favor of this, it keeps cyclists off the roads. Riders should be happy with that idea, as long as pedestrians are kept well away, as well as slow riders and riders with kiddie trailers on the back.

There are a number of reasons that people choose to ride instead of using a alternative means of transport and I doubt that getting their faster is big on their list of reasons for the majority. Considering that their is no public transport system in the world that is not subsidised by government how is mode sharing completing against the trams revenue. This assumes that the tram will go everywhere someone would want to travel. This is also why trying to force riders off the road network is never going to work unless you are going to replicate it with off road cycling as well. Which is completely unnecessary when you consider that the vast majority of the roads around Canberra have perfectly adequate infrastructure that works for both cars and cyclist.

wildturkeycanoe said :

TL:DR cyclists are bad and spoilt and cause recessions

While there might’ve been some fallacies, generalisations and exaggerations, I am really impressed you didn’t use the word ‘lycra’ once in that monologue. Well done. ‘Thumbs up’ emojis and all that.

jcjordan,
“With all the blind corners, narrow turns the chances of hitting someone is fairly high and if you look at hospital data represent over 75% of cyclist admissions.””…. I am surprised that any of them will go near them if they plan to do speeds above 20km/hr.”
Well, cyclists should ride to suit the conditions and slow down if there are hazards. Perhaps cyclists should also be speed limited for the safety of everybody on the shared paths. Even if you had a super cycleway exclusively for two wheels only, you will eventually catch up to someone going slower due to a hill or their lack of stamina. Are you going to complain then and tell them to get off the road? What happens when cycling kicks off and everybody is doing it, clogging up the cycleways and forcing everybody to slow down? Just as drivers have to slow down due to the number of vehicles on the roads and are being told frequently on forums not to get agro, why should cyclists take on the same persona and start making “path rage” a common term? I want to drive fast too but there are all these cyclists cluttering up my road!

“The raised lanes in and around civic are a separate matter as these are actually cycle paths or lanes. The fact that they are nearly useless due to all the pedestrians that walk across them without looking or stand there chatting means that you are better off on the road where you can travel at a decent pace.”
Now you are complaining about pedestrians cutting you off while you are riding on “your” lane. Do you see now how drivers feel about cyclists on the roads, always cutting across and getting in the way of their “own” designated path? As for the last bit, wanting to get onto the roads and do a “decent pace” in the city is downright dangerous and selfish. In your next sentence you yourself admit the traffic in the city is “the worst place to ride” and “narrow, full of rubbish and drivers turn left without warning”, yet you want to get amongst it so you can go faster. That is simply begging for an accident to happen.

The benefits of cycling in terms of getting to places faster by beating the traffic are only available if you break the law by going through “Do Not Walk” signs and red traffic lights. If you obeyed the rules I’d be confident a car would be a quicker way, especially if riding from several suburbs away. Cyclists have been given fantastic off-road facilities as well as the on-road option. Safety concerns are surely valid but contributing to these issues is the self righteous attitude of the cyclists who think they should have right of way over everybody else, be allowed to break,bend or change the rules because they are better for the environment.
We are not the Netherlands and without mother nature doing some serious earth bending never will be. We can’t put in Fietspads without the government buying up people’s houses, digging up infrastructure and completely re-designing Mr. Burley Griffin’s vision of Canberra. We will never have a European style public demand for cycling whilst travel distances to and from work are around 30km, way too far with our steep inclines separating the suburbs from employment centers.
It is also not in the government’s interest to support a huge increase in cycling. The lost revenue from registrations, insurances, public transport, fuel excise, carbon tax, parking fees, parking fines etc, will not be recoverable even from introducing some sort of cycle tax, especially if millions needs to be spent on some kind of cycling network to enable hundreds of thousands to pedal everywhere. The only reason for our current cycling expenditure is vote buying, as the noise from the two-wheeled lobby is obviously loud enough to warrant “some” action, probably the cheapest option no doubt.

To the author’s question about a separated cycle lane on the same route as the tram, why would the government build something adjacent the tram that is going to compete against it and directly reduce it’s revenue stream? Space on that particular route is already at a premium, the land just isn’t available as they already have to purchase substantial sections to install the tram infrastructure. Even if viable cyclists would be subject to the same problem as cars on that route, being the long wait at traffic lights due to the tram’s right of way and east west traffic building up. I doubt cyclists would be able to go any faster than the tram without breaking laws on the way.
An alternative is to extend the Sullivan’s creek cycle path northward, linking Gungahlin to Lyneham. I’d be in favor of this, it keeps cyclists off the roads. Riders should be happy with that idea, as long as pedestrians are kept well away, as well as slow riders and riders with kiddie trailers on the back.

The safety of pedestrians must also be considered. I was in Braddon recently and exited a building onto the verge to have a cyclist nearly knock me and my son over. Is there a requirement for cyclists to dismount when they are travelling near entraces of buildings or areas such as shopping centres? As with cars v cyclists and cyclist v pedestrians the smaller of the two will always be the more vulnerable. The key is to minimise risk and in some circumstances this will mean separation.

gazket said :

Weatherman said :

The Netherlands solution to the clash of bicycles and heavy vehicles was to implement a system of bike lanes (Fietspads) that are separated from urban road thoroughfares (Baanvak). As aforementioned by other respondents, nowadays, Canberra bike lanes are mostly separated with the exception of rural and outlying parts of Australian Capital Territory and interstate roads.

It’s still a lottery though. Last year in the Netherlands184 cyclist died on the road. Pedal Power don’t mention those statistics do they.

The casualty figure in the UK is rising.
http://www.rospa.com/road-safety/advice/pedal-cyclists/facts-figures/
The same will happen here.
It’s time Canberra, which is overweighted with cyclists, started imposing fees to offset the cost of rescue and medical services.

octagonal man I don’t know who has been cleaning up anything you have reported but it sure is not TAMs. I have put in more than a dozen reports of glass and rubbish on various roads in the Tuggeranong, Woden and Duffy areas and in nearly every case nothing has been done. One section of windscreen glass is still there 7 months after I reported it and has even managed to be on being missed as part of one of there supposed road sweepings. Everyone that I know had given up reporting these says nothing gets done.

gazket said :

Weatherman said :

The Netherlands solution to the clash of bicycles and heavy vehicles was to implement a system of bike lanes (Fietspads) that are separated from urban road thoroughfares (Baanvak). As aforementioned by other respondents, nowadays, Canberra bike lanes are mostly separated with the exception of rural and outlying parts of Australian Capital Territory and interstate roads.

It’s still a lottery though. Last year in the Netherlands184 cyclist died on the road. Pedal Power don’t mention those statistics do they.

And I can be pretty sure people driving and walking died on the roads in the Netherlands too. What is your point here, besides showing a prospective towards people who cycle? More meaningful figures would be the percentage of deaths of cyclists as compared to the number who ride in the Netherlands, and then compare that to the percentage here in Canberra.

Weatherman said :

The Netherlands solution to the clash of bicycles and heavy vehicles was to implement a system of bike lanes (Fietspads) that are separated from urban road thoroughfares (Baanvak). As aforementioned by other respondents, nowadays, Canberra bike lanes are mostly separated with the exception of rural and outlying parts of Australian Capital Territory and interstate roads.

It’s still a lottery though. Last year in the Netherlands184 cyclist died on the road. Pedal Power don’t mention those statistics do they.

What Northbourne needs is a dedicated separated cycle way down the centre, on the median strip. Cyclists are then protected from cars entering and exiting side streets, which is the principle danger zone and point of contact. Same for all major roads with median strips.

I don’t ride them personally, but planners should eyeing the emergence of ebikes by raising power limits and speed limits to 40 kph on on-road lanes and dedicated cycle ways, especially if the narrow tram corridors go ahead. There are ebikes currently like htc and stealth that rip along at 70kph. And maybe bikes of a certain power SHOULD have identifiers or be registered. It would be a small price to pay for cycle infrastructure to be taken seriously, as in road-seriously, so that paths aren’t dissected by every side street that comes along. Ebikes remove much of the exertion and speed limits which deter many people, and they are probably the key critical mass. But they need to be encouraged.

I don’t think bikes are for everyone and I don’t think people should be forced on them. But neither do I think people should be forced into cars. And only a stupid driver would object to less cars on the road and relieved pressure on parking.

Northbourne might be improved in years to come but a simple solution would be to put a raised rubber lane divider between the car lane and cycle lane, at least through intersections. Turning cars would have to negotiate a speed hump type divider which might discourage cars from trying to beat cyclists and pedestrians through intersections and warn non turning vehicles if they are drifting into cycle lanes.

If the Government can litter roads like Starke St Holt and Flinders Way Manuka with rubber speed humps surely they can afford a smaller rubber strip along parts or all of Northbourne.

IIRC Tams is trialling three types of ane dividers in a few streets with an eye for a wider roll out. But don’t ask me for the link.

jcjordan, TAMS are pretty good with cleaning once you let them know via Canberra Connect. They usually clean up within three days. If it’s in NCA territory, it’s taken them a month (and after resubmitting it as ‘Road Safety’) to get around to though.

Frankly, the disorganised and inconsiderate behaviour of a significant number of cyclists around Northbourne needs to be addressed. It has become the culture of cycling in Canberra. It’s dangerous and incredibly annoying as a pedestrian, not to mention as a driver. I don’t know anything about the accident yesterday and I hope all are okay. But I would like to see the police out there, issuing tickets to cyclists who clearly feel that there are no rules which apply to them.

There are hits and near misses of pedestrians by cyclists around Northbourne all the time. A cyclist could kill or seriously injure an elderly person or child.

Cyclists make perilous turns in front of cars and buses.

Cyclists ride across at the lights as a pedestrian, when there is no green light, and cars are turning towards them. Oh my god.

They ride across at the lights into oncoming pedestrian traffic, and just ride harder when the pedestrians don’t part in the middle.

Some ignore the new bike lane on Bunda Street and ride on the footpath right next to it – when there is nothing in the bike lane.

They jump from the road onto the footpath right in front of pedestrians without signalling. As if to say ‘Don’t you know this is where I work? You should have got out of my way.’

They ride through areas which have signs stating ‘Do not ride in this area’. (Presumably this is because the nature of the building means pedestrians cannot always be clearly seen.)

Cyclists run red lights. All. The. Time.

And just off Northbourne headed towards the uni, cyclists regularly ride on the wrong side of the road, into oncoming traffic, for about a block, before veering across the road again. Unbelievable.

The comments here are an example of why there problems with what is a great on road cycle network.
Firstly those paths that you see alongside a small number of our older roads that so many call, including members of government, are NOT cycle paths but shared paths. Which means that by law pedestrians have right of way on them and are not designed with the cyclist in mind. With all the blind corners, narrow turns the chances of hitting someone is fairly high and if you look at hospital data represent over 75% of cyclist admissions. When you consider that as the law currently stands if a cyclist hit anyone on these paths they are automatically at fault unless they can prove otherwise I am surprised that any of them will go near them if they plan to do speeds above 20km/hr.

The raised lanes in and around civic are a separate matter as these are actually cycle paths or lanes. The fact that they are nearly useless due to all the pedestrians that walk across them without looking or stand there chatting means that you are better off on the road where you can travel at a decent pace. This is caused both by design but also from sheer ignorance on behalf of most people (cyclist and pedestrians)

Northborne would be the worst place to ride (or drive for that matter) during the peak times. The lanes are narrow, full of rubbish and drivers turn left without warning, through open doors or drive in the lane I am actually surprised that more people are not killed.

Having ridden in every capital city in Australia I have to say that we are blessed with the on road network here in Canberra. They are wide, well designated and are in the vast majority respected by both drivers and cyclist. Now if we could just get TAMS to actually clean them up every once and a while, not once every 10 years as it currently stands, it would be perfect.

I just arrived home to Watson after riding up Northbourn from the city. Two lights on my back (one flashing) and a flashing head torch on my forehead, hi-vis jacket, 11pm at night.

I was 20 metres away from the Flemo road turn off when I got an almighty honk from a dero in a sedan. I am still wondering what from. Was I too visible? Heaven forbid, did my flashing lights distract this poor driver at this late hour?

Can riotacters please advise me of night time riding etiquette. I am a driver 90% of the time and when I drive at night, I am always grateful for flashing lights on cyclists as I quickly notice the flashing lights but only when I get closer do I see the rider.

I hate this division of cyclists/drivers. I just want to be able to ride my bike safely on the roads as frankly, sometimes the meandering, poorly lit cycling paths through the burbs along the creeks can be a bit unnerving for a female at at night. I get just as pissed off with law flouting cyclists as I do with incompetent drivers in regards to some of the earlier comments on this post. As mindfulness is all the rage at the moment, let’s back off from the rage hating troll toting honking and put ourselves in other’s cleats.

She says as she finishes her rant.

Rollersk8r are you aware there is a very nice cycle path 500m away meandering through O’Connor and Turner? There are nice traffic lights at Macarthur Ave and Wattle St and a zebra crossing at David street.

If you don’t know about it, may I suggest you try it. Minimal exposure to cars and no buses.

Bikes On Footpaths: When Is It Lawful?
Chris Jager
6 FEBRUARY 2013 12:30 PM

http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2013/02/bikes-on-footpaths-when-is-it-lawful/

Weatherman said :

The Netherlands solution to the clash of bicycles and heavy vehicles was to implement a system ….

Which is completely irrelevant to a town like Canberra that is very hilly and where cycling is not a popular activity.

http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/media-centre/city-hall/dossier-cycling/cycling-facts-and-figures

“Number of bikes in Amsterdam:
An estimated 800,000. 63% of Amsterdammers use their bike on a daily basis.
Total length of bike paths: 500 km “

So that’s less than 1metre of bike path per daily user.

In Canberra, on the other hand, we have a vast amount of cycle paths (which doesn’t stop the lycra from clogging up the roads) with only the very occasional user.

It should also be acknowledged that under Australian Capital Territory law and jurisdiction, footpaths and sidewalks are considered to be bike lanes. It is not always the case that cyclists have marked priority on footpaths and sidewalks in areas that are interstate.

The Netherlands solution to the clash of bicycles and heavy vehicles was to implement a system of bike lanes (Fietspads) that are separated from urban road thoroughfares (Baanvak). As aforementioned by other respondents, nowadays, Canberra bike lanes are mostly separated with the exception of rural and outlying parts of Australian Capital Territory and interstate roads.

Ezy said :

Having ridden around in Melbourne – it is fairly easy to get around. If I lived there, I would hardly need a car because of that reason. The drivers seem to be more aware of cyclists, the biggest cyclist danger down there is car doorings though (when a driver opens their door without looking for a cyclist in their mirror or doing a head check).

This simple and cheapest solution is to simply educate drivers. Being a good driver is about accessing what is going on in your surroundings. This means looking our for and making eye contact with other drivers, pedestrians, cyclists etc.

Then there is also teaching cyclists how to ride defensively. Cars will cut you off, pull out in front of you etc. You shouldn’t be smashing down Northbourne in peak hour thinking that this isn’t going to happen. A steady speed, fingers on the brakes at all times, always looking ahead, paying close attention to cars that are indicating to turn in front of you. When I ride on a busy road, I ride knowing that I will at some point a car will pull out or cut me off and having that ‘always on edge’ attitude makes me more alert.

I was going to mention – I just spent a week in and around the Melbourne CBD. Trams and tram passengers generally means there’s a lot more to look out for on the roads than there is here; plus cycle lanes are often on the outside of parked cars; plus some cyclists launch themselves at insane speeds down the hilly bits of the city. Yet, somehow, it seems cyclists are a more accepted part of the ecosystem down there…

I ride Northbourne daily and have been hit a few times, each case the driver was negligent careless. Moving the cycling lanes off the main road though would greatly increase the danger.

Drivers pulling into or out of driveways or turning left are currently required to give way and the vast majority do. The vast majority are aware of bikes and drive very proactively around bikes.

Removing the bike lane to the outside of the road would remove this significant protection that cyclists receive. Cyclists would now have to give way to everybody crossing the cycle path and during main commuting times it would not be practical.

It would also introduce ‘iphone sheeple’ to the mix as well resulting in a fairly impractical scenario.

Moving it inward could be a possibility but would be a fairly costly exersise.

@Madam Cholet
The raised cycle is pretty confusing and often just used as an extension of the footpath, not a good use of money

The problem I encounter with them (that is the designated raised cycleways around Marcus Clarke etc), is that A) cyclists fail to stop at traffic lights as they should. So you step off the pavement at your peril, and B) cyclists ride up them the wrong way, so again, you could step off when the green man says you should and still get taken out by a cyclist you have not been obliged to actually look out for.

I’m all for cycling, but it’s when you see regular flouting of the rules that you start to get annoyed.

I believe the whole Northbourne road corridor is being tweaked as part of the Light Rail project. I don’t think they have settled on the final design, but separated cycleways are definitely under consideration.

As it is, Northbourne is a pretty special case in terms of cycle lanes. The lane is quite narrow with many cross roads and driveways intersecting with it. Other roads such as Adelaide Ave are much safer to commute on, though you do still need to be wary on the Green Lanes of Death.

I’m in no way trying to victim blame, but if you try to make sure you’re not riding in the car’s blind spots and make head-checks when approaching slip and turning lanes I find it goes a long way to avoiding some of the situations you mentioned. Also, assume in the first instance that the person driving the car has not seen you until you have made eye contact or are sure they are stopping for you helps too.

Unfortunately many people driving cars do not consider the cycle lane as another lane of traffic and fail to look adequately when crossing through it. Broadly speaking it is getting better (slowly), but there is still some way to go.

Sorry to hear about your accident.

Having ridden around in Melbourne – it is fairly easy to get around. If I lived there, I would hardly need a car because of that reason. The drivers seem to be more aware of cyclists, the biggest cyclist danger down there is car doorings though (when a driver opens their door without looking for a cyclist in their mirror or doing a head check).

This simple and cheapest solution is to simply educate drivers. Being a good driver is about accessing what is going on in your surroundings. This means looking our for and making eye contact with other drivers, pedestrians, cyclists etc.

Then there is also teaching cyclists how to ride defensively. Cars will cut you off, pull out in front of you etc. You shouldn’t be smashing down Northbourne in peak hour thinking that this isn’t going to happen. A steady speed, fingers on the brakes at all times, always looking ahead, paying close attention to cars that are indicating to turn in front of you. When I ride on a busy road, I ride knowing that I will at some point a car will pull out or cut me off and having that ‘always on edge’ attitude makes me more alert.

There are proposals to integrate cycleways into the light rail redevelopment – go to
http://haveyoursay.capitalmetro.act.gov.au/walking-and-cycling
although it seems they have closed the consultation phase, you can see the options being considered.

Canberra is already full of separated cycleways. I see cyclists riding on the road right next to these cycleways all the time. Why spend the money if they won’t be used by most?