And so Tralee continues...

I think a good question for Ken is what sort of internet are people to expect out at Tralee?
Is it another let’s just build it and see what they plonk in that one and heaps get screwed.
Yep Evatt where I am was denied in my time but mostly had a steady high dial up compared to my friends in nearby areas all over). It still suffers dropouts heaps and in the last three weeks woeful. (ADSL2)

Please understand I am not asking you to know everything, nor divulge anything, but let’s not make it all about aircraft and remember to remember the people who have lives (yeh we think it’s a life) to live and dreams to build (perhaps on the net, there’s a thought!). Moreover just asking if you know if it’s going to be different for this new suburb? Would even maybe offset the aircraft noise to have a really super dooper as promised by the Australian Govt. net speed (or it in the works at least). Well.. I did say maybe..

Jazz – is that a load of astroturf you just posted? You got to go to a junket and now you’re an expert? Great – let’s proceed:

Please explain how a freight hub benefits Canberra? Are we to become a truck stop on the way to Sydney? How does the money “stick” to Canberra – after all it’s all paid to the freight companies who are located elsewhere and all Canberra’s gets is:

1. worn out roads – tax payer cost
2. truck and aircraft pollution – tax payer cost
3. aircraft noise – tax payer cost
4. reduced property values from all of above – tax payer cost

Just exactly how does “Canberra business benefit” from a line of planes landing at 3am to transfer boxes to a line of trucks which takes it to Sydney? Please list examples exactly how this is going to happen (I’m sure it seemed very plausible after your tenth drink at your “networking function”).

I like how you don’t mention at all that noone in Canberra has had any say as to whether we want a line of freight planes landing 24×7 over our houses.

I live in Jerrabomberra and for the most part don’t notice the noise of the planes – what I do notice these days is the noise of the traffice as the infrastructure has not kept up with the amount of development that has taken place.

It is already a nightmare just to get out of jerrabomberra at peak hour in the morning an then joining onto the monaro is just as bad – and noting Ken’s comment that Shepard st potentially will not be connected leaves me to wonder how all these new residents will be entering and leaving this new suburb?

I was fortunate enough to see the Snow’s plans for the airport at a networking function last night and i’ve got to say that they are impressive, not just as a commercial opportunity for the Snow’s family business, but also to the commercial opportunities in what those plans represent to canberra as a whole (particuarly for SME’s in the Canberra region and the flow on effects from there)

IMO a pretty simple equation in VBC’s proposal
1. Place airport in the middle of nowhere.
2. Put freight or passenger traffic through Airport and inevitiably business pop up around it to take advantage of commercial opportunities it presents.
3. Whole city and region start to benefit
4. People who dont want to travel far to work in those businesses move to a reszoned residential area nearby (what VBC are proposing to capitalise on)
5. Developer gives initial concerned buyers some measure of assurance that noise wont be a problem
6. People moving in there find that it is (particularly overnight freight when there is bugger all ambient noise to cover it up). Noting that those people may not have had anything to do with the developer at all in subsequent housing turnover.
7. Said people complain to minister and either shut airport down or impose curfew (In all seriousness, in an important marginal seat politically, it makes absolutely no difference whether the noise actually meets any standards whatsoever)
8. Airport traffic suffers as a result
9. Business suffers due to reduced traffic going through transport hub and start to close
10. People move away & property price falls
11. Developer finds new transport hub to capitalise on as they’ve already cashed in on this one.

Of course VBC wants this to be rezoned to residential. Their approx $7,000,000 speculative investment becomes a potential winfall of around $800,000,000 (est 2000 blocks x $400k house & land package build). If rezoning to Commercial you could prob drop one of the zero’s off what the land is worth, and strangely enough, yet another to make keep it rural (which is what VBC paid for it)

Canberra benefits hugely by maintaining its curfew free airport status as it means we pick up heaps of freight and passenger traffic that cant go into Sydney. That can only be a good thing for Canberra/Queanbeyan’s long term growth. Is it worth the risk?

Dave0 said :

Tralee – go for it, I suspect it will sell like ice blocks on a hot summer day. Close to main road transport, 15 minutes from the city and close the employment zones.

Ha! And like ice blocks on a hot day, they’ll be left with nothing but a sticky mess.

Thanks for taking the time to address these posts Ken ; you are doing a great job in the PR Tralee stakes. I appreciate many of the counter-arguments detailed here, but am also glad that locals will have another more affordable house/land purchasing option in Tralee.

Mr Evil said :

I wish the RAAF would permanently base 12 of their new F/A-18Fs at Canberra – then you’ll find out what real jet noise sounds like people……….. 🙂

The Bulgarian president’s plane a couple of weeks ago would take some beating. One of those old Soviet jets and it was loud!

If Tralee has a noise problem, pity help Gungahlin and north Canberra residents. The people I feel sorry for are those new places along the Kingston foreshore, less than 2 km from the airport and nothing but an expanse of shallow lake water to block aircraft noise. On a quite winters night and freight aircraft taking off late at night, GOOD LUCK with that.

Snow Corp. complains loud and long about everything, I’m over it, they object about everything that they don’t directly control and benefit financially from. From the DFO in Fyshwick, to developments throughout the city and the Tralee development 12 km away from the airport.

I was so curious about what the fuss was all about, a month or so ago, I went with a friend out to Tralee, we stood, outside of my car, I spend a few hours their just talking & chatting, in total we spent over 2 hours, it was surprisingly quiet, yes we could see the aircraft, we watch over 6 aircraft fly in the general vicinity, a few arriving and another few leaving Canberra Airport, in truth, a car diving down my street makes more noise than those aircraft out their.

The entire thing is a beat up by the airport.

As for noise complaints people in Canberra complain now, check out what Hacket people put up with, they started Curfew4Canberra, give that website a Google.

So why does the Airport want to stop Tralee, it’s not about looking after your best interest or that of any future residents I suspect. It about them making even more money. Canberra Airport development is so out of control it’s ridiculous and we will be paying for it.

As for the Tralee development, I did some further inquires, and found out that it is outside the noise predictions that the Airport itself drew up. The Airport drew the lines on the map, after they forecast that the Canberra Airport would have more aircraft traffic than Gatewick or Sydney in the year 2050, one movement every 2 minutes, and aircraft would remain as noisy as the oldest fleets allowed to fly today. Tralee is still outside of that, it is still within normal national planning standards.

I tell you, the entire thing is a beat up by the airport.

And before some says it, no I have no financial connection to Village Building, nor do I work for or do I contract to the developers or any other developer or builders.

Tralee – go for it, I suspect it will sell like ice blocks on a hot summer day. Close to main road transport, 15 minutes from the city and close the employment zones.

Anyone who wants to inspect the site at 8 am next Thursday 26th November, please confirm by sending me a text message on 0404 891141.
Meet at the end of Alderson Place in Hume

Gungahlin Al

I investigated the comparisons you are making between housing around the Sunshine Coast Airport and Tralee. You have a degree of knowledge about aircraft noise and you should not be making such outrageous comparisons to Tralee. Twin Waters is only 2 km from Sunshine coast airport and directly under the flight path, Maroochydore is 4km and Buderim is 6.5 km. Tralee is 10 to 12 km from Canberra Airport, the same distance that Minyama and the very southern part of Mooloolaba is from the Sunshine Coast Airport. The noise from individual flights at Minyama and the very southern part of Mooloolaba would be similar to Tralee.

You have been spending too much time with Stephen Byron.

Ken, I must say that it is at least refreshing to have your perspective on these issues on this blog. Many of us will probably still think Tralee housing is a daft idea, but the fact that you take the time to respond to our comments is a positive thing.

With respect to your response to my comment, I would say that the ACT not allowing connection to Sheppard St is a very positive thing. The Monaro Hwy is a major thoroughfare for a large number of Tuggeranong residents, the ease of travel on this road has already been compromised by recent developments and the associated additional traffic lights.

You may know lots of happy Jerra people, but most I know have always b1tched about the aircraft noise. I’ve certainly noticed it when I’ve visited during the daytime.

I noticed that in all your well considered responses you have not touched on tralee buyers signing away their right to complain or protest down the track.

I bet none of these curfew free airports are ‘bigger than sydney airport’.

For the couple of people who have indicated they want to inspect the site, I will be doing a site tour at 8 am next Thursday 26th November. Meet at the end of Alderson Place in Hume.

In response to further comments since my last post –

Pandy
You are looking at an outdated plan. There are no houses in Tralee under any current or proposed flight path.

Goose
The ILS cannot be moved. It can only be used for a straight in approach. A few planes do however use a GPS based RNP approach which is closer but still well clear of housing in Tralee. There are no plans to move the RNP approach.

Braddon Boy
The insulation will meet the requirements of Australian Standard AS 2021-2000
Have a look at our display homes if you doubt the quality.
West Macgregor has been judged by our peers and has won:
• Housing Industry Association Affordable House of the year
• HIA Greensmart – Resource Efficiency Award
• Master Builders Association, Chief Minister’s Award for Affordable Housing.
There is a huge demand for our affordable houses at West Macgregor and we have sold 789 houses over the last in two years

I have purchased two investment properties from Village and I am saving to buy one at Tralee. We haven’t started advertising yet but we already have a list of well over 100 people who want to buy at Tralee.

Queanbeyan Council’s plans for South Jerrabomberra allow for Canberra Airport to grow to ultimate capacity, which is larger that Sydney airport and will in fact never occur.

Those 1,000,000 Australians with more than twice the amount of aircraft noise all experience more night time aircraft noise than Tralee. Many of them are near curfew free airports.

The region is short of land that can be developed for affordable housing. South Jerrabomberra is the only location in the south of the region that is close to existing infrastructure and can deliver affordable housing. This is why it was identified in the 1998 ACT and Sub Region Planning Strategy as the only future urban development area in the south of the region. This strategy was signed off as a formal agreement by the Commonwealth, ACT, NSW governments and local Councils to guide future development. That is why we purchased Tralee – it was not a wild speculative purchase.

Yellow Snow
I come back to the more than 1 million Australians living in areas with more than twice as much aircraft noise as Tralee. They live in established houses, the vast majority without the noise insulation that we are proposing for Tralee. People continually buy in those areas even though they have the choice available of buying in other areas. Suburbs such as Double Bay, North Ryde, Rose Hill, Revesby Heights and Clovelly have more than twice as much aircraft noise as Tralee. There are similar highly desirable suburbs in all capital cities with much more aircraft noise than Tralee.

OYM
Village will be paying to upgrade surrounding infrastructure. The ACT government is however refusing to permit Sheppard St to be connected through to NSW. The ACT is trying to protect its monopoly on land supply.

sepi
Noise sharing has only been introduced in areas that are far noisier than Tralee where there have been severe changes in operations such as when the parallel runway was constructed in Sydney. Federal government policy prohibits noise sharing in cases like Tralee. It simply doesn’t make sense to move noise away from Tralee which will be designed with noise insulation.

Gungahlin Al
As I have said before, housing at Tralee is not under any current or future flight path. Through your involvement with the airport, you would be aware of this and I am surprise you are making these misleading claims.
I am glad you are now acknowledging that Tralee is not like Twin Waters. Maroochydore is also a bad example because it also cops a lot more noise than Tralee. I will try to find an area near the Sunshine Coast Airport with equivalent noise to Tralee. This should put you at ease.

Xrt04
Our planning allows for fifteen 747s every night.

Watto23
The point of visiting the site is that you can see and hear 737s which form the bulk of air traffic into Canberra and will do for many years to come.
If you want to see what the noise will be like at Tralee in 50 years time, go to Double Bay, although I doubt if 747s will still be flying.
There might be some people who don’t like living in Jerra but the vast majority love it there and are not concerned about aircraft noise.
South Jerrabomberra includes 130 ha of employment land.

Gungahlin Al
With your involvement with Canberra Airport, I am surprised by how misleading your comments are.
The vast majority of Jerra residents are not concerned about aircraft noise. AirServises records of complaints from a few years ago showed only 2 to 3 complaints per month, which is about the same level of complaint that comes from any average residential suburb far from an airport. What Jerra residents are complaining about is the Canberra Airport Master Plan that proposes to grow Canberra Airport larger than Sydney airport with planes every 1 minute and fifty seconds day and night and fifteen 747s every night. Of course this is totally unrealistic.

AG Canberra
The airport and Tralee can coexist without any impact on the operations of the airport. It’s been proven in every city in Australia, particularly at the curfew free airports.

Skidbladnir
You need to see it for yourself. The ANEF for Canberra Airport is highly exaggerated since it is based on the unachievable assumptions I have outlined above. Even under these assumptions, Tralee still complies with AS 2121

I wish the RAAF would permanently base 12 of their new F/A-18Fs at Canberra – then you’ll find out what real jet noise sounds like people……….. 🙂

So which is the lesser evil – VBC or the Snows/Cbr airport

I also work at the airport and don’t notice much plane noise. That’s because the airport and it’s buildings are relatively noisy. I’ve visited friends in Jerra and REALLY noticed the noise there. Noise is a relative thing – an inaudible sound at 3pm in a busy area can be a sound that can keep you up at 2am.

I work barely 200 metres from the runway at Canberra Airport. My car park at work is within spitting distance of the taxiway. I don’t notice the planes in my office – ever – and they don’t bother me when I’m out and about in the business park mornings, lunchtime or evenings.

I’m at a loss to understand what the fuss is about. Insulation FTW.

The Australian Standard being mentioned by Ken above is most likely AS2021…

The zones you see on the above linked documents are in ANEF (Australian Noise Exposure Forecast).
Basic explanation of ANEF values and what they mean, courtesy of Camden Airport. (Yes they’re a small airport, but the theory is sound).

ANEF was up for review in the most recent ‘Safeguards for airports and the communities around them’ discussion paper, with the actual discussion paper and the submissions made into it available at the Federal Infrastructure website http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/airport/safeguarding.aspx

The Tralee development and rezoning gets a fair amount of mention in several submissions, including those from Tourism & Transport Forum, Canberra Airport, Casino Canberra, Jerrabomberra Residents’ Association, Village Building Company (whose sumbission includes correspondence included by Ken), Master Builders Association of the ACT, etc…
The value of only using ANEF estimates and turning them into ‘lines on maps’ between acceptable and unacceptable for land development (as a land management & planning tool) is questioned by everybody except the people with a vested interest in the actual development of that land, apparently.

I may still take Ken up on the offer to visit, but reading through the submissions on the discussion paper (specifically from people who live in ANEF-20 to ANEF-30 rated zones) complaining about their situations raises questions about the bits of Tralee shown in this map produced by the Queanbeyan City Council.
http://www.qcc.nsw.gov.au/Documents/EUVJILJYVTO.pdf (page 4 specifically)

So it looks like it’s down to this –

1 Do the residents of Canberra/Qbn want new homes in a place that may cause disruption to the operations of our current 24hr airport?

2 Do the residents of Canberra/Qbn want new homes in a place that may cause noise sharing sometime in the future?

Interesting – watching Webtrak (http://www32.webtrak-lochard.com/WebTrak/cbr) at 5.20 pm on 10/11/09, there are 737s departing to the south registering 67dB at Jerra. And departures should be less noise that far out due to rapid ascent. And a little later on arrivals with similar noise levels.

No noise problems 12 kms out eh Ken?

xrt04 said :

Whether people like it or not, the Canberra Airport will look totally different to what it is today in 10 years time. It will be even bigger than Sydney Airport I dare say. In 10 years time, we will be seeing Airbus A380’s and Boeing 747’s taking off at Canberra.

Wow, I hope so!!!

I have now finally found someone more optomistic than me 😉

Do you have any thoughts on the new Bruce Stadium sporting complex? Australia winning the Soccer World Cup and then us hosting the event? Then we could fill all those Airbus A380’s with people flying in to watch the games.

sepi said :

#39 is on the money.

As the airport increases flights, and starts up nightflights, places like Jerra and Hackett will become really noise affected.

Complaints will go up.

Eventually flight paths will be widened to share some of the noise with adjoining areas…like Tralee, as well as parts of Canberra.

In a place like QBN / ACT it really doesn’t make sense to build under a flightpath – is there nowhere else at all for some new suburbs for QBN?

Sepi: the flight path for RNP-equipped planes (special precision GPS controls) has already been shifted to the west to reduce noise for Jerra. This change was made after I suggested it at one of the Airport Noise Consultative Forum meetings a year and a half-ish back.

You can see this path on page 17 of this Air Services report. (Page 23 also shows very clearly why aircraft movements are something Gungahlin people should be interested in.) More and more planes will move over to this path as they get RNP – much faster if the public RNP gets approved.

I neglected to mention in my previous post: Ken if noise isn’t a problem 12 klicks out, then how come the Jerra folk are so strongly onto the whole noise issue then? Huh? I’m guessing it’s because it’s – you know – noisy???

Ken,

The reason no one has taken up your offer to check the site is that we believe you that noise is not a big issue right now. But in the future regardless of whether you believe the airports figures or not, noise will get worse. When it gets worse people will complain. Why don’t the VBC build commercial property at Tralee??? I work in Fyshwick and don’t notice the noise alot from my office. I can see the planes land also, but outside its quite noisy. So insulation helps indoors but what about having a BBQ outdoors?

If Tralee goes ahead where does it stop. Other developers can argue Tralee is 10-12kms away and so is my development….. Comparing to other airports etc is just misleading and stupid. Arguments about how the noise is “not bad” is also misleading. Just don’t build residential there and remove all doubt. You wouldn’t be building there if it was part of the ACT, but because its in NSW you can try and build there and make money.

Lets face it the kind of people who’d buy there are those that are not thinking about any financial security or future because the risk of the property falling in value is high IMO. I have friends who moved to Jerra and complain about the noise at night and complain that Canberra Airport has got freight hub approval…..

Braddon Boy said :

For those that want to see an example of their shoddy construction, go take a look at the new West Macgregor development. Everything there is the bare minimum they can get away with and still conform to any regulators. It will be a ghetto in 10 years.

hmmm Braddon Boy, who made you an expert on property prices?

Please provide evidence of your qualifications or just say in your humble (uneducated) opinion.

Note – I do not live in West Macgregor.

Whether people like it or not, the Canberra Airport will look totally different to what it is today in 10 years time. It will be even bigger than Sydney Airport I dare say. In 10 years time, we will be seeing Airbus A380’s and Boeing 747’s taking off at Canberra.

I am surprised in this era of RA moderating everything that #44 got through without some slashing…

JimT: I don’t think there is anything “perplexing” or hypocritical as you put it about my position on airport noise. I have been campaigning for existing populated areas to be protected from a ramped-up night-time noise impact via a curfew (not yet successful) and by amending the Noise Abatement Zone boundaries to fully enclose those areas on the north side (successful). I also believe that further residential development should not occur directly under approach paths. There is much the airport does with which I disagree strongly, but as someone who has also been on the management of a significant regional airport, I am with the airport on this one, as I voiced opposition when Jerra was first mooted.

Ken Ineson: Twin Waters may well be closer than Tralee but Buderim and Maroochydore are not, and we received molto complaints whenever approaches came directly from the south. Fortunately the local geography and prevailing winds allowed us vary airline operations to have 95% of arrivals from the north over the ocean and departures to the south with rapid ascent and bank left over Maroochy River to the ocean. The surrounding mountains in Canberra prevent such solutions and mean that arrivals from the south are tunnelled into the Jerra/Tralee valley for many kilometres, and noise complaints coming from people far far to the south of Tralee. So your examples do not stack up. Again.

Annoyedcan: some parts of Gungahlin are delightfully free of airport noise. Others only have occasional nuisance. The more easterly areas can guarantee a morning wakeup from the 6.15 flights every weekday. A glossy spruiking piece from the airport about their freight hub that I received yesterday also shows their 65dB line going almost to the eastern edge of Forde. 65dB is a significant noise level. But my campaigning is not about what is happening now – it is about what will be happening 10, 20 and 30 years into the future if the airport gets unrestrained development rights, or if everyone has to suck up more noise because a bunch of people move into a dumb location and start bitching about the noise.

#39 is on the money.

As the airport increases flights, and starts up nightflights, places like Jerra and Hackett will become really noise affected.

Complaints will go up.

Eventually flight paths will be widened to share some of the noise with adjoining areas…like Tralee, as well as parts of Canberra.

In a place like QBN / ACT it really doesn’t make sense to build under a flightpath – is there nowhere else at all for some new suburbs for QBN?

I do agree with much of your argument yellowsnow#47; but any future Tralee home-owners would need to be in a complete media void to not be fully aware of the controversy regarding their future home location. It has been bubbling along in Canberra for years. Ergo – the houses are likely to be quite cheap (comparatively), attracting buyers who would not ordinarily be able to buy a lovely new, if somewhat noisy, home. All future tralee owners will make their purchasing decisions based on full awareness regarding what they are buying into. And if they are prepared to make the purchase anyway, and decide that the noise factor is worth it -well, who am I to stand in their way? Surely if they sign a caveat/contract stating they have no ability to make future noise complaints 9which should be warning enough!), then they won’t have a leg to stand on regarding future noise whinges?

My main problem with Tralee is that it sounds kinda bogan.

Those arguments of Ken’s about other air noise affected areas being worse will count for nothing when the Tralee residents start complaining. I’ve followed plenty of other battles where the existing noise making venue loses out to the new noise affected residents.

Is Village Building going to cough up some money to fund upgrades to Monaro Highway?

I do find it amusing that Canberra Airport Group have complained about planning processes for Tralee and DFO. I wonder if the irony is lost on CAG.

Problem is, many homebuyers get into such an andrenaline-fueled frenzy when purchasing property, they go with their hearts and superficial attributes such as new kitchen appliances, feature wall, etc, rather than putting their minds to work and logically thinking through all the pros and cons of buying in a particular location.

Even if they’re aware of flight paths or major roads planned nearby these are relagated to the background of decisionmaking as abstracts, and only come as a shock months down the track when, lo and behold, suddenly the new homeowners start noticing and getting annoyed by … you name it … things which seem more real and annoying when they are no longer just on paper. That stainless steel kitchen will no longer looks that crash hot anymore.

You can insist on people doing their research, you can insert caveats into contracts and land titles, but human nature and decades of experience with new developments and homebuyer behaviour suggests Tralee newbies will start complaining and agitating about the noise, or other perceived shortcoming, sooner or later.

Surely it’s better to stop the development now to protect the Traleeites from themselves, the developers’ empty promises, not to mention the wrath of the rest of us. Either that or pass a law relegating citizens of Tralee to second class status and banning them from complaining about anything and everything, for all eternity.

Despite all of the arguments and counter arguments presented here, I do feel that Tralee may offer a more affordable option for many Canberra residents who are otherwise unable to afford buying here. Land/houses under a flight path and in close proximity to an airport will undoubtedly (hopefully) be less expensive and perhaps will provide an opportunity for families to actually own property here. Perhaps some families may feel that the extra noise is worth it? If they sign a contract stating that they have no means to complain about noise in the future, and are fully aware of what they are getting themsleves into, then really, who does this development negatively impact? That said – we actually left Jerra because we couldn’t stand the flight noise, but maybe we are just really precious about our sleep.

Good work Braddonboy. Lets see if Mr Village.B.Co. is a developer for the people or a (should be) pollie in waiting..

In my experience, VBC is one of the more unethical and unscrupulous developers that operate within the ACT region.

Ken, you say that the houses will be insulated for noise (despite this not being the Holy Grail solution as discussed above). I’m willing to bet that it will be the cheapest, most ineffectual insulation your company can get your hands on. The quality of VBC construction for their other developments is appalling, why is Tralee going to be any different? For those that want to see an example of their shoddy construction, go take a look at the new West Macgregor development. Everything there is the bare minimum they can get away with and still conform to any regulators. It will be a ghetto in 10 years.

Ultimately though, the question isn’t what the aircraft noises are like at the moment, it’s what they might become in 10, 20, 50 or even 100 years time. Once you build this development there is no going back, we are stuck with it. A little prior planning goes along way. Ken keeps quoting how 1,000,000 Australians live with more aircraft noise every day. The point he glosses over is for the majority of these 1,000,000 the airports have to have a curfew. We are fortunate enough that the airport for our nation’s capital doesn’t need such a curfew, isn’t that worth preserving, if not absolutely necessary now, then for the future?

The fact is we are not short of land in this region. If we were in Singapore, Hong Kong, or even Sydney it would be a different story, we may be forced to make people live under landing aircraft, but not here. Ultimately it comes down to money, VBC received this land cheep because it was under a flight path and then make their fortune by getting it rezoned.

Ken, answer honestly, with all my arguments above taken into account. If you didn’t stand to make a lot of money from this (or your company make a lot of money from this), and you weren’t involved in any way with the development, would you still support it?

Having only just noticed Ken’s responses since the Riotact update emails don’t seem to be coming through to me here, I’d be willing to take Ken up on his offer of a site visit at some point in the future.

(Although as the author of the above, if I’m never seen or heard from again…)

Problem making people aware of it will still mean they will complain, just look at the people of Harrison who bought houses near the proposed wells station extension are complaining. If it was a problem why buy there. The road was always planned there. Same goes with Monash Drive, same residents who complain about aircraft noise, Summernats, Traffic. Should move those people away from Canberra to a new town called Silent town.
And as a resident of Gungahlin, never heard any aircraft so don’t know what people of Gungahlin complain about.

Chop71 said :

I’ll take you up on the offer to inspect the sites.

Chop71, can you round up a few mates? Otherwise its just you.

What we will do however is create an environment that fully informs people through notices on titles etc. This will help to minimise the liklihood of complaints and also provides a robust defence against complaints.

Ken, that is what many asked for. My hat off to you and to Bob. Good on yas.

Off course it will not stop the complaints, but at least people can turn around around and say “We told you so”.

The only time Tralee would have noise problems is if the airport has the ILS shifted 5 degrees to the left (approach to rwy35)so it can take B747 etc.. away from Jerra.
So the story in short: if the ILS is not shifted (left) then the big boys wont be able to fly in because of the noise Jerra would get.

I’ll take you up on the offer to inspect the sites.

I must admit to being one of the ignorant. With all the hype, I assumed Tralee was the area north of Jerra. Surely the noise would be far better than Jerra. I live on a fairly well used suburban thoroughfare, which is seemingly a speedway after dark, and I wouldn’t imagine the aircraft noise be any worse than the motorbikes (either the loud harleys or 10,000+ rpm bikes), hoon-mobiles, and the doof-doof that goes past each day and night.

But take the point that there would be a push to move the flight paths away from a marginal electorate and over southern Canberra

In response to the comments posted over the last few days:

Its not against the law to complain about things and I cannot guarantee that people won’t complain. If you look at records of complaints in any city, you will see that complaints are received from virtually every suburb about all sorts of issues. What we will do however is create an environment that fully informs people through notices on titles etc. This will help to minimise the liklihood of complaints and also provides a robust defence against complaints.

Outdoor noise levels in Tralee are substantially less than in may parts of Jerrabomberra and less than half the noise currently experienced by over one million Australians including a large proportion living near curfew free airports. The vast majority of these people are not concerned about aircraft noise. That population of 1 million people turns over continually with people moving from quieter areas into noisier areas without any concern.

Tralee is between 10km and 12 km from the airport and cannot be compared to Marrackville, Twin Waters or housing 3km from an airforce base. Noise levels at Tralee are so low that the Australian Standard does not require internal insulation for most of Tralee even if the airport grows larger than Sydney airport with fights including 747s at 2 minute intervals day and night. We have offered to insulate to provide additional amenity well beyond that provided in any other development in Australia and probably the entire world.

Tralee is close to the Monaro Highway and backgraound noise levels are slightly higher than Jerrabomberra. The background noise level at Tralee is not dissimilar to many perfectly acceptable suburbs around the country with far more aircraft noise than Tralee.

I find it interesting that I havent had a single response to my offer to inspect the site. I guess its much easier to jump on a soapbox while hiding behind a computer.

If the opposition to the VBC development was motivated by anything other than jealousy and malice it would be worth considering.

Gungahlin Al said :

Spot on Evil. I look forward to Mssrs Winnell and Ineson being the first residents of Tralee – as if!

On noiseproofing can I add “and if the windows are closed”. It is a joke to think that we would consign an entire suburb to live in homes for which you can never leave windows and doors open. The greenhouse impact alone of that are stupifying. The only way Tralee residents could be assured of a reasonable lifestyle free of airport noise is if Winnell and Ineson build a Truman Show style bubble over the whole bloody suburb.

Sorry Ken but your claims of new estates in other capital cities is utter rot – there would not be another capital city in Australia that has the night-time ambient noise level Canberra has – essentially zero.

I don’t have to go O/S for an example of new residents complaining about noise. As the local Councillor I experienced it with Lend Lease’s Twin Waters development near the Sunshine Coast Airport, and to be frank we have had exactly the same thing here with Jerra residents – another suburb that should never been approved and about which I protested at the time (letter printed in CT) even though I lived in Queensland back then.

Al,
I am a little perplexed as to how you can be of similar opinion to Mr Evil regarding his views on aircraft noise complaints when you have been so vocal and heavily involved in campaigning for a curfew at Canberra Airport through your involvement with the GCC and Curfew 4 Canberra (example: http://www.gcc.asn.au/News/Airport/gungahlin-needs-an-airport-curfew.html).
Perhaps you crusade in an attempt to ensure that the residents of Tralee don’t suffer the same terrible fate as those who bought in Gungahlin and now complain? Noble, but terribly hypocritical dontcha think?

…or maybe it could be like “The Castle” and you could wheel your trolly from the airport 😉
“…..ahhh the serenity”

and the developers could say “I dug a hole” ….. and “Dad, it’s filling with water”

for a city to continue to grow…

i think its about time we abandoned 1/4 acre blocks and lived in accommodation that suits our environment.

why cant qbn or the act for that matter, use vacant or under utilised land within existing urban boundaries. better design, medium density housing would be a better solution that ‘releasing’ more ‘vacant’ farm land or bush so i can have a water feature in my backyard.

who benefits from ‘land releases’ ?

Spot on Evil. I look forward to Mssrs Winnell and Ineson being the first residents of Tralee – as if!

On noiseproofing can I add “and if the windows are closed”. It is a joke to think that we would consign an entire suburb to live in homes for which you can never leave windows and doors open. The greenhouse impact alone of that are stupifying. The only way Tralee residents could be assured of a reasonable lifestyle free of airport noise is if Winnell and Ineson build a Truman Show style bubble over the whole bloody suburb.

Sorry Ken but your claims of new estates in other capital cities is utter rot – there would not be another capital city in Australia that has the night-time ambient noise level Canberra has – essentially zero.

I don’t have to go O/S for an example of new residents complaining about noise. As the local Councillor I experienced it with Lend Lease’s Twin Waters development near the Sunshine Coast Airport, and to be frank we have had exactly the same thing here with Jerra residents – another suburb that should never been approved and about which I protested at the time (letter printed in CT) even though I lived in Queensland back then.

I am not a promotor, developer, shareholder, or resident of north Canberra. I am just a rational guy who sees logic and merit where it lies.

So, has anyone actually looked at the proposed sites?
http://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/plansforaction/pdf/QCC_endrsd_res_econc_strat_mapB.pdf

I mean seriously, take a look and you will see that most of the develpment is Googong not Tralee. And not near the flight paths. Sure Tralee (North) and the Poplars were exposed to noise but look at the map, only parts of Tralee (South) and Googong are being considered!

I am indifferent to what gets built but I understand that for Queanbeyan to continue to grow it must go south. It can’t go west due to ACT border, it can’t go north or east due to gorges and mountain terrain so it must go south. South is Jerra, Googong, Tralee, Environa, etc.

Canberra-Queanbeyan is Australia’s 7th largest urban centre so expect noise, from planes to cars to trucks to construction sites! Get over it! Welcome to progress! Welcome to urban life! If you don’t like it move to Yass!

Any noise complaints from the new residents of the future to existing residents in north Canberra of the present would no doubt come from those who suffer the NIMBY syndrome. Some residents are of course more advanced than NIMBY and suffer from BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything). Again, get over it! Stiffling progress is the ACT way and it infuriates me that this city has been over-planned and under-utilised for decades.

btw, as a contrast how do people accept noise living on major roads like Canberra Av or Northborne Av. Do they complain after moving in? I bet not.

P.S. Canberra is technically already an international airport, just not for general public, ie. only for the pollies.

Actually it’ll be win win for Canberra and Tralee. Tralee/Jerra/Queanbeyan votors will prefer a curfew on night freight planes (as a super marginal electorate they’ll get their way). Canberra voters will benefit from that.

If the feds try out their scary story of noise sharing over the ACT (although I can’t see the air lien companies liking the waste of fuel and complex flight paths), then they’ll lose their Canberra seats as well.

It’s not about fair, it’s about voting.

Marrickville gets no aircraft flights from 12am to 5am. Canberra is a proposed 24hr fright hub.

The next point is, “in my opinion”, is that all people that live in NSW and benefit from the ACT are freeloaders and the ACT should be expanded another 100km all around it.

Its is the Capital region.

Ken, most people here couldn’t care less that you want to build houses out at Tralee.

What they are concerned about is for the potential for some people who buy there to start complaining about noise from the airport and aircraft movements – and then potentially push for a curfew and noise sharing. You mention that VBC will soundproof the homes being built there (an initiative which I congratulate your company on), but unfortunately soundproofing only works if you are inside – it doesn’t help if you want to sit on the veranda or out in the garden.

As I said, if you are so damn sure that people won’t complain, then put those conditions I mentioned earlier into your contracts.

I can almost guarantee there will be complaints out there. I once lived in a city overseas which allowed developers to build a housing estate on farmland 3km from an air force training base and also near one of its flightpaths. Within about two months of the first homes on the estate being finished, homeowners had begun complaining about the noise to the local council, the air force and in letters to the editor of the local newspapers – and this was about an airfield that at it’s busiest only ever had about 100 movements per day, mostly from light piston engined training aircraft doing “circuits and bumps” between the hours of 8.30am-5pm Mon-Fri, with one night a week during the new pilot training period for night flying training between 6pm and 9.30pm! Within five years the air force had vacated the airfield for a number of reasons – one of which was because the complaints had meant the airfield was unviable as a pilot training ground.

You also mention that areas of Sydney have much greater exposure to aircraft noise – but people in Sydney have always had more exposure to aircraft noise than people in Canberra and Queanbeyan. I’m sure if someone moved from Marrickville to Tralee, they’d think it was paradise; but if someone moved from O’Connor to Tralee, they might suddenly notice an increase in the noise level!

Of course we all understand that Canberra Airport future movement predictions are probably pretty silly – but like VBC, they are a private company trying to make as much money as possible and protect their investments, now and into the future.

No International Airport – just a 24 hour freight terminal

We do have an internatoinal airport. It’s just not viable for many flights to come in there.

The real burning question, though, is what is going to happen to Tralee International Raceway?

BOB WINNELL (Tralee Developer) :”The planes do not come in over this land. One day in seven they depart over this land at a considerable height and noise is not a large issue over Tralee.If you are sensitive to noise, you don’t choose to live on a main road and you won’t choose to live at Tralee.”

“……it should be noted that a departing aircraft will in most cases fly directly over some part of Tralee and the overflown area will experience the maximum levels shown in Table 1”
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projectsservices/reports/nfpms/2002/CBR_Aug02.pdf

Then off course there is the continual push by Jerrabomberra Residents Association and one Margret Sachse to have the maximum number of flights take-off/land to the north and to impose other noise reduction measures in aircraft. If it is bad enough for her, then won’t she think of the children of Tralee?

Are we the only capital City in the world that does not have an international airport?

How embarrassing

In response to your comments here are some facts to consider:
The housing at Tralee is not under any current or proposed flight path.

A large part of Jerrabomberra has much more aircraft noise than Tralee.
Marrickville has about 100 times more aircraft noise than Tralee.
Tralee has less than one third of the aircraft noise experienced by residents of Double Bay. It has less than half the aircraft noise experienced by more than 1/2 million residents in Sydney and more than 1 million residents Australia wide. Although, due to historic reasons, a proportion of those 1 million people are living in areas that exceed the Australian standard for Aircraft noise, the vast majority are not concerned about aircraft noise. It cannot be argued that most of those areas are unacceptable for housing.
Tralee has less than half the noise of all of those areas and easily meet the stringent Australian Standard for Aircraft Noise even under Canberra Airport’s ultimate capacity projections which assume Canberra Airport will grow bigger than Sydney Airport.

As an additional precaution not required by the Australian Standard, we have offered to insulate all homes in Tralee. Developments approved every year in areas with more aircraft noise in all capital cities in Australia without the additional insulation we have offered to install.

We are also happy to place s.149 notices on Titles for all lots and restrictive covenants that require any future extensions or modifications to be insulated and which also warn residents that the area is subject to aircraft noise.

Recent stories in the SMH and Australian were leaked by Canberra Airport and contained untruths. Both papers subsequently issued corrections.

Ken Ineson said :

I have already taken over one hundred people to the site and everyone has said they cannot understand what all the fuss is about.

Think long-term Ken. The air traffic corridor will get noisier over years and decades. Placing people under it now will only disturb the residents more later, or more realistically restrict the airport’s capability – a capability that was planned for by selecting a corridor free of development. This just won’t do.

“I have already taken over one hundred people to the site and everyone has said they cannot understand what all the fuss is about.”

Well maybe cause its under a flight path. Having lived in Sydney for 22 years, under a flight path, you dont build under a flight path. Maybe take a trip to Sydney and see what happen to suburbs closer than what I was like Marrickville, houses bought by Fed Govt and knocked down cause of noise.

In this case planes would be diverted around canberra and agree with Bluenomi, canberra is a safe labour seat so you can fly planes over canberra and they will still will win the seats.

Ken Ineson said :

I am the Village Building Co’s project manager for the proposed Tralee development. There is a lot of misinformation being posted on RiotACT and in the media. Anyone who is genuinely interested in the Tralee proposal is welcome to contact me at kineson@villagebuilding.com.au to arrange an inspection of the site. I am happy to take anyone to the site during the morning or afternoon peak periods for aircraft movements, during southerly operations or northerly operations. I have already taken over one hundred people to the site and everyone has said they cannot understand what all the fuss is about.

Yeah, the media and all of us are all full of hot air, and VBC isn’t……

Ken, if you and VBC are so sure that airport noise isn’t going to be an issue either now or into the future, why don’t you create a contract that all those who choose to purchase in Tralee have to sign that says:

a) They realise and fully accept that they are purchasing a property close to and/or beneath a flightpath and close to a capital city airport; and that they accept all responsibility for their decision to purchase there.

b) They understand that even if the noise isn’t an issue to them now, it may becomes so in the future as the number of flights into or out of Canberra airport increases, and they will not complain, seek to have any noise sharing and/or curfew introduced, or attempt to seek any form compensation from the airport owners, the ACT and/or Federal Govt.

c) They also understand and are fully aware of the dangers of living close to or directly beneath a flightpath, and that they are aware that a high percentage of air accidents occur with a 5km radius of an airport.

I won’t hold my breath awaiting a reply………..

Ken Ineson said :

I am the Village Building Co’s project manager for the proposed Tralee development. There is a lot of misinformation being posted on RiotACT and in the media. Anyone who is genuinely interested in the Tralee proposal is welcome to contact me at kineson@villagebuilding.com.au to arrange an inspection of the site. I am happy to take anyone to the site during the morning or afternoon peak periods for aircraft movements, during southerly operations or northerly operations. I have already taken over one hundred people to the site and everyone has said they cannot understand what all the fuss is about.

You will find that most of the people here don’t care either way about the development. If the aircraft noise is acceptable to the people who live there then that is fine. However, should you choose to build there then there should be no ability for the people of this proposed development to complain should the aircraft noise levels change in the future. The condition of the development being built is the acceptance of the current aircraft flightpaths forever.

The fuss is about the increased aircraft noise into the future, as the airport expands, and runs freight planes through the night.

A daytime site visit now, is not going to accurately forecast the sleep disturbance of jets overhead at 2AM, ten years from now.

Ken, besides having friends in Jerra further away from the flight path and complaining about the noise, I have sat at night in the Tralee estate in the car as close as I could under the flight path. The noise is more intrusive than during the day. What the airport wants is 24/7 jet movements into the airport. I can tell you that the lower flying prop craft are more noisey than jets. It wont be long before the residents of Tralee want to impose noise sharing and/or a curfew on the airport. Unlikely given the importance that the airport plays to the pollies.

Will you say this publically: that in your deeds of sale you will place a note that the development is under a flight path and might be subjected to noise and the buyers acknowledge this? If not you are blowing in the wind.

pptvb said :

Also…what is “Environa”, As shown on Google Maps at Tralee ?

In the 1920s, Environa was intended to be one of the first ‘gated communities’ (the linked article includes drafting plans). Unfortunately the Great Depression meant the project was stillborn.

The entrepreneur behind the venture, Henry F. Halloran, was quite prolific around the ACT and Southern NSW.

An aerial view of the site is here.

Environa will probably return from the dead in the next decade or so, hey?

Environa is a farm property that has been there since days of federation. AFAIK, most of that land was owned by the farm orginally, including Jerra.

OK, double post.

Could I also invite Sepi, as an advocate of the noisy northern suburbs, to spend an hour or so over a really slow coffee, to also assess the relative noise levels of Hackett (?) versus Tralee/Hume. This is a perfectly serious offer. Sepi is quite knowledgeable about the subject of aircraft noise.

I suspect that there would be little comparison between the two sites.

Ken @ #11,

Thoroughly agree. I have shared my experience, as a Hume businessperson, a number of times on this forum. I have invited the former kingpin of this site to sit at the Hume Canteen, about 200 metres from the edge of Tralee, to experience the (almost total lack of) noise from arriving/departing aircraft. I have not been told if the offer was taken up.

Bottom line – very little aircraft noise over Tralee/Hume. Jerra cops the worst of it already.

I am no apologist for the VBC. But if the noise aint there, don’t try to invent it.

I am the Village Building Co’s project manager for the proposed Tralee development. There is a lot of misinformation being posted on RiotACT and in the media. Anyone who is genuinely interested in the Tralee proposal is welcome to contact me at kineson@villagebuilding.com.au to arrange an inspection of the site. I am happy to take anyone to the site during the morning or afternoon peak periods for aircraft movements, during southerly operations or northerly operations. I have already taken over one hundred people to the site and everyone has said they cannot understand what all the fuss is about.

Stupid subdivision that should not be built. Same as most of Jerra.
What we have is a highly speculative purchase by a developer who bought something with very poor development potential in the hope that they could pull off a rezoning against all odds, then sit back and reap windfall profits. Only the bigger developers can afford the holding costs of trying to pull off this sort of coup. Or extraordinary connections. Or both.

The key ingredient they need is time, because they can always wear down resistance over a number of years, because people just get sick of the fight, or they move elsewhere. And others can be “bought off” by strategic offers of community facilities.

It is an insidious aspect of the development industry that brings it no end of ill repute.

In my personal opinion.

Hope you Canberrans enjoy the fruit of your Chief Minister’s labour in putting the gaol next to Jerra…

bd84, I completely agree. It’s on thing to buy a house, then for the flight path to change but if you know before you buy that it is under a flight path, you have no right to complain.

But you know they will anyway and then they’ll move the flight paths and the rest of us will get the noise because we live in safe Canberra seats and they are in Eden-Monaro

“You would be a fool to want to live there”. Qwimbo further south.

I’m probably wrong Watto, but I was under the impression that one of VBC’s problems was that, while their plans show road access to the Monaro H’way, ACT govt aren’t going to approve it. It should make Tharwa Dr fairly busy in the mornings.
Also…what is “Environa”, As shown on Google Maps at Tralee ?

The other issue I had with this development was the main road was going to connect straight onto the Monaro highway. That way all congestion would be moved into the ACT in the morning rather than via Queanbeyan roads…..

I know many people now who complain of aircraft noise in Jerrabomberra. The airport has always been there since Jerra was built.

And the noise is always going to become greater as well. no point arguing about the noise predictions which seems to have occured.

JimT said :

^^^Does that rule apply to the residents of Hackett, Watson and Gungahlin also?

Well, the previous airport (circa 1922), used to be called ‘Northborne Aviation Ground’, and was located between majura ave and northborne, close to Antill St, which is pretty much where Hackett is now, so yes, that applies even moreso. The airport was there long before any of those 3 suburbs were even suburbs.

Hackett/Watson maybe not as much as they were developed with much fewer aircraft flying around (dozen per month instead of dozen per day), but since Gungahlin was formed, there has always been enough aircraft flying around for anyone to be aware of their presence before buying into the area.

Only Tralee Jimbo

^^^Does that rule apply to the residents of Hackett, Watson and Gungahlin also?

Number one rule for the development should be: you choose to live there, you live with the aircraft noise. Forever and always. No options.