Barr, Coe in transport war of words

Rotten_berry said :

This study from 2010 is actually a pretty decent level-headed discussion of trams for Canberra. http://atrf.info/papers/2010/2010_Gordon.pdf

I agree. It’s conclusions pretty well match mine. Done right it will work. Done wrong, like anything done wrong, it won’t.

The only bone I would pick with the report is the over reliance on U.S. examples and the misrepresentation of only 10% of Australians using public transport. The U.S.A. thinks and acts quite differently to Australia on a wide range of issues, particularly on transport and the merits of public projects. In Australia the urban use of public transport is actually around 16% which shows that Canberra’s low 6.8% is an outlier and can be brought back into line.

wildturkeycanoe said :

rubaiyat said :

I have personal experience of this with my Sydney property, waiting decades for the NSW government to stop sabotaging the Light Rail. When finally the government completed the line, the local property prices skyrocketed.

Aha! Perhaps you’ve finally revealed the reason for the unwavering support of light rail, having property interests along the proposed corridor and wanting to see some quick dollar gains on the land value once it is serviced by the tram network.
As for your comments about main roads decreasing property values because of the noise? Undeveloped property values do not reflect this trend in the A.C.T. and being near main roads actually increases the likelihood of sales thanks to easy access to the thoroughfare instead of having to weave through the back streets to get onto a connecting arterial road. Just look at anything along Belconnen way for example, the sales history shows good prices. The further into the sticks you go, the less value properties attract.

I trust the Palmerston residents that oppose the Nudurr Drive extension will read this and drop their opposition. Or perhaps not.

wildturkeycanoe said :

rubaiyat said :

There is the story of the 3 blind men examining the elephant. One feels the tail and says it is a rope, another a leg and says it is a tree, and the third the trunk and says it is a hose.

Blind men or blind mice? Take your choice, but it really helps to open your eyes, and walk around the elephant in the room.

Did the blind men know it was a white elephant?

Game, set and match.

rubaiyat said :

There is the story of the 3 blind men examining the elephant. One feels the tail and says it is a rope, another a leg and says it is a tree, and the third the trunk and says it is a hose.

Blind men or blind mice? Take your choice, but it really helps to open your eyes, and walk around the elephant in the room.

Did the blind men know it was a white elephant?

rubaiyat said :

There is the story of the 3 blind men examining the elephant. One feels the tail and says it is a rope, another a leg and says it is a tree, and the third the trunk and says it is a hose.

Blind men or blind mice? Take your choice, but it really helps to open your eyes, and walk around the elephant in the room.

The fact is that around the world car use has plateaued and is starting to fall as cars ruin one city after another.

In the USA public rail transport is growing remarkably, light rail has grown 190%, heavy rail 52% whilst bus has declined 3%.

It is easy to see why because metro rail speeds rise steadily in comparison with cars and buses, whose speed steadily falls.

http://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/rDwjw/1/

Young people have lead the trend in the USA away from driving, where between 2001 and 2009 per capita car miles fell 23%, and is continuing to fall.

The young are increasingly abandoning cars and seeking out cities and districts with increased walkability. In Boston for example 70% of young people working in the knowledge economy live in the highly walkable areas because they need to come together with lots of different people and don’t have time for long commutes.

http://www.uspirg.org/reports/usp/transportation-and-new-generation

Which is why the areas around rail are seeing strong growth but none around car or bus. Perth’s southern rail line raised land values around stations by 42% over 5 years and could have raised 60-80% of the capital cost if tax increment financing had been used. The new Sydney Metro Northwest set off a property boom until both State and Council jumped on the speculation.

I have personal experience of this with my Sydney property, waiting decades for the NSW government to stop sabotaging the Light Rail. When finally the government completed the line, the local property prices skyrocketed.

Proximity to major roads meanwhile has the opposite effect.

You may have all sorts of opinions on Light Rail, and may not even use it, but do you seriously think you can build more and more freeways and roads and NOT have it turn out exactly as it has everywhere else?

Would you support the govt (partially) capturing the land value uplift that the sydney light rail has given you? Otherwise the public spending mostly benifits those within <1 km of the stops, who enjoy property value increases plus the utility of the rail service while only paying ~20% of the costs at the fairbox. Those horrible roads meanwhile provide utility to their entire catchment area.

This study from 2010 is actually a pretty decent level-headed discussion of trams for Canberra. http://atrf.info/papers/2010/2010_Gordon.pdf

Back then they were talking about 54 km of rail for $2 billion (capital cost) which wouldn't be a bad deal. Seems the costs have blown out a bit since then.

rubaiyat said :

I have personal experience of this with my Sydney property, waiting decades for the NSW government to stop sabotaging the Light Rail. When finally the government completed the line, the local property prices skyrocketed.

Aha! Perhaps you’ve finally revealed the reason for the unwavering support of light rail, having property interests along the proposed corridor and wanting to see some quick dollar gains on the land value once it is serviced by the tram network.
As for your comments about main roads decreasing property values because of the noise? Undeveloped property values do not reflect this trend in the A.C.T. and being near main roads actually increases the likelihood of sales thanks to easy access to the thoroughfare instead of having to weave through the back streets to get onto a connecting arterial road. Just look at anything along Belconnen way for example, the sales history shows good prices. The further into the sticks you go, the less value properties attract.

dungfungus said :

Canberra will never be one of those places because the Euro-Tram model they are selecting it overweight, overpriced and it will be under utilised. Canberrans will always use cars first because we can – thanks to the planning for the use of cars in this city (we had a choice, right?)

“We”? Who’s “we”?

I wasn’t consulted nor to my knowledge was anyone else in Canberra outside Planning, who you famously say ignores the true wishes of Canberrans.

Going on your track record, you simply saying something immediately makes me assume the opposite is true. Then I check to verify: Yep, again! Hand out another dungers award!

Solidarity said :

I’m moving to Edinburgh for a few years in a fortnights time, their light rail implementation and take-up has been absolutely beautiful, so good that my first purchase so far in pounds has been a Nissan Micra that I pick up on the day I arrive.

But Canberra isn’t Edinburgh!!!

Edinburgh has twice the population, three times the density, and played a very important role in the Reformation! 😀

rubaiyat said :

There is the story of the 3 blind men examining the elephant. One feels the tail and says it is a rope, another a leg and says it is a tree, and the third the trunk and says it is a hose.

Blind men or blind mice? Take your choice, but it really helps to open your eyes, and walk around the elephant in the room.

The fact is that around the world car use has plateaued and is starting to fall as cars ruin one city after another.

In the USA public rail transport is growing remarkably, light rail has grown 190%, heavy rail 52% whilst bus has declined 3%.

It is easy to see why because metro rail speeds rise steadily in comparison with cars and buses, whose speed steadily falls.

http://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/rDwjw/1/

Young people have lead the trend in the USA away from driving, where between 2001 and 2009 per capita car miles fell 23%, and is continuing to fall.

The young are increasingly abandoning cars and seeking out cities and districts with increased walkability. In Boston for example 70% of young people working in the knowledge economy live in the highly walkable areas because they need to come together with lots of different people and don’t have time for long commutes.

http://www.uspirg.org/reports/usp/transportation-and-new-generation

Which is why the areas around rail are seeing strong growth but none around car or bus. Perth’s southern rail line raised land values around stations by 42% over 5 years and could have raised 60-80% of the capital cost if tax increment financing had been used. The new Sydney Metro Northwest set off a property boom until both State and Council jumped on the speculation.

I have personal experience of this with my Sydney property, waiting decades for the NSW government to stop sabotaging the Light Rail. When finally the government completed the line, the local property prices skyrocketed.

Proximity to major roads meanwhile has the opposite effect.

You may have all sorts of opinions on Light Rail, and may not even use it, but do you seriously think you can build more and more freeways and roads and NOT have it turn out exactly as it has everywhere else?

I use trams in other places where it is appropriate to use them. Canberra will never be one of those places because the Euro-Tram model they are selecting it overweight, overpriced and it will be under utilised. Canberrans will always use cars first because we can – thanks to the planning for the use of cars in this city (we had a choice, right?)

There is the story of the 3 blind men examining the elephant. One feels the tail and says it is a rope, another a leg and says it is a tree, and the third the trunk and says it is a hose.

Blind men or blind mice? Take your choice, but it really helps to open your eyes, and walk around the elephant in the room.

The fact is that around the world car use has plateaued and is starting to fall as cars ruin one city after another.

In the USA public rail transport is growing remarkably, light rail has grown 190%, heavy rail 52% whilst bus has declined 3%.

It is easy to see why because metro rail speeds rise steadily in comparison with cars and buses, whose speed steadily falls.

http://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/rDwjw/1/

Young people have lead the trend in the USA away from driving, where between 2001 and 2009 per capita car miles fell 23%, and is continuing to fall.

The young are increasingly abandoning cars and seeking out cities and districts with increased walkability. In Boston for example 70% of young people working in the knowledge economy live in the highly walkable areas because they need to come together with lots of different people and don’t have time for long commutes.

http://www.uspirg.org/reports/usp/transportation-and-new-generation

Which is why the areas around rail are seeing strong growth but none around car or bus. Perth’s southern rail line raised land values around stations by 42% over 5 years and could have raised 60-80% of the capital cost if tax increment financing had been used. The new Sydney Metro Northwest set off a property boom until both State and Council jumped on the speculation.

I have personal experience of this with my Sydney property, waiting decades for the NSW government to stop sabotaging the Light Rail. When finally the government completed the line, the local property prices skyrocketed.

Proximity to major roads meanwhile has the opposite effect.

You may have all sorts of opinions on Light Rail, and may not even use it, but do you seriously think you can build more and more freeways and roads and NOT have it turn out exactly as it has everywhere else?

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

JC said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

rubaiyat said :

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

But did the cyclist follow the roads and obey all the road rules, or did they ride through the “No Walking” signs, lane filter and use the footpaths or did they have a path all to themselves clear of any traffic whatsoever? Do you have any evidence to show how this was conducted?
Apples vs oranges. If you had a car that could do all the things the cyclist could, I’m sure the trip would have been even quicker.
Also, you are talking about a city with over 2 million people, not a big country town. They built their rail network in 1998 when the population was over a million and have only just begun the light rail network now. Does Canberra have the dollars coming in that the mining does for WA? No. Do we have the population density to sustain a tram network? No.
These kind of comparisons do not help the cause for a tram in Canberra.
But, just like Lyle Lanley, it’s the catchy jingle and “feel-good” vibe from Andrew Barr that is driving the “genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail” here in Canberra. The evidence is all just theory waiting for the track to bend.

Re population density it only matters along the line not the city as a whole. And in Canberra there is one corridor that has the population density required which is Ta da the northborne ave Flemmington road corridor. The rest of your post is just typical red herring of the anti brigade.

You mean the Northbourne Avenue / Flemington Road corridor may have the potential to have a population density to support a light rail – it certainly doesn’t now.
And if and when it does, in about 20 years time, there will be a commensurate increase in the number or of cars along the corridor so what is the point?

Without Light Rail there will be massively more cars on the road. Who would have thought?

Why will light rail stop people owning and driving cars? Let’s get fair-dinkum for a change.

It won’t. But catching the Light Rail to and from work in peak hour will mean they won’t be adding to the traffic jams and will be saving a motza.

The car doing what it does 98% of the time, ie nothing, is the only way to save money with one.

That response surely gets the “spin of the week” award.

Ah dungers, we need to create The Dunger, an award just for your brand of unsubstantiated, vague “just is”.

Still have not got one specific thing from you on your “geological explanation” of Global Warming. Just the same old “I have the answer on this thing that you can’t see, but believe me its just brilliant!”

I’m moving to Edinburgh for a few years in a fortnights time, their light rail implementation and take-up has been absolutely beautiful, so good that my first purchase so far in pounds has been a Nissan Micra that I pick up on the day I arrive.

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

JC said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

rubaiyat said :

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

But did the cyclist follow the roads and obey all the road rules, or did they ride through the “No Walking” signs, lane filter and use the footpaths or did they have a path all to themselves clear of any traffic whatsoever? Do you have any evidence to show how this was conducted?
Apples vs oranges. If you had a car that could do all the things the cyclist could, I’m sure the trip would have been even quicker.
Also, you are talking about a city with over 2 million people, not a big country town. They built their rail network in 1998 when the population was over a million and have only just begun the light rail network now. Does Canberra have the dollars coming in that the mining does for WA? No. Do we have the population density to sustain a tram network? No.
These kind of comparisons do not help the cause for a tram in Canberra.
But, just like Lyle Lanley, it’s the catchy jingle and “feel-good” vibe from Andrew Barr that is driving the “genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail” here in Canberra. The evidence is all just theory waiting for the track to bend.

Re population density it only matters along the line not the city as a whole. And in Canberra there is one corridor that has the population density required which is Ta da the northborne ave Flemmington road corridor. The rest of your post is just typical red herring of the anti brigade.

You mean the Northbourne Avenue / Flemington Road corridor may have the potential to have a population density to support a light rail – it certainly doesn’t now.
And if and when it does, in about 20 years time, there will be a commensurate increase in the number or of cars along the corridor so what is the point?

Without Light Rail there will be massively more cars on the road. Who would have thought?

Why will light rail stop people owning and driving cars? Let’s get fair-dinkum for a change.

It won’t. But catching the Light Rail to and from work in peak hour will mean they won’t be adding to the traffic jams and will be saving a motza.

The car doing what it does 98% of the time, ie nothing, is the only way to save money with one.

That response surely gets the “spin of the week” award.

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

JC said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

rubaiyat said :

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

But did the cyclist follow the roads and obey all the road rules, or did they ride through the “No Walking” signs, lane filter and use the footpaths or did they have a path all to themselves clear of any traffic whatsoever? Do you have any evidence to show how this was conducted?
Apples vs oranges. If you had a car that could do all the things the cyclist could, I’m sure the trip would have been even quicker.
Also, you are talking about a city with over 2 million people, not a big country town. They built their rail network in 1998 when the population was over a million and have only just begun the light rail network now. Does Canberra have the dollars coming in that the mining does for WA? No. Do we have the population density to sustain a tram network? No.
These kind of comparisons do not help the cause for a tram in Canberra.
But, just like Lyle Lanley, it’s the catchy jingle and “feel-good” vibe from Andrew Barr that is driving the “genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail” here in Canberra. The evidence is all just theory waiting for the track to bend.

Re population density it only matters along the line not the city as a whole. And in Canberra there is one corridor that has the population density required which is Ta da the northborne ave Flemmington road corridor. The rest of your post is just typical red herring of the anti brigade.

You mean the Northbourne Avenue / Flemington Road corridor may have the potential to have a population density to support a light rail – it certainly doesn’t now.
And if and when it does, in about 20 years time, there will be a commensurate increase in the number or of cars along the corridor so what is the point?

Without Light Rail there will be massively more cars on the road. Who would have thought?

Why will light rail stop people owning and driving cars? Let’s get fair-dinkum for a change.

It won’t. But catching the Light Rail to and from work in peak hour will mean they won’t be adding to the traffic jams and will be saving a motza.

The car doing what it does 98% of the time, ie nothing, is the only way to save money with one.

rubaiyat said :

dungfungus said :

JC said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

rubaiyat said :

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

But did the cyclist follow the roads and obey all the road rules, or did they ride through the “No Walking” signs, lane filter and use the footpaths or did they have a path all to themselves clear of any traffic whatsoever? Do you have any evidence to show how this was conducted?
Apples vs oranges. If you had a car that could do all the things the cyclist could, I’m sure the trip would have been even quicker.
Also, you are talking about a city with over 2 million people, not a big country town. They built their rail network in 1998 when the population was over a million and have only just begun the light rail network now. Does Canberra have the dollars coming in that the mining does for WA? No. Do we have the population density to sustain a tram network? No.
These kind of comparisons do not help the cause for a tram in Canberra.
But, just like Lyle Lanley, it’s the catchy jingle and “feel-good” vibe from Andrew Barr that is driving the “genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail” here in Canberra. The evidence is all just theory waiting for the track to bend.

Re population density it only matters along the line not the city as a whole. And in Canberra there is one corridor that has the population density required which is Ta da the northborne ave Flemmington road corridor. The rest of your post is just typical red herring of the anti brigade.

You mean the Northbourne Avenue / Flemington Road corridor may have the potential to have a population density to support a light rail – it certainly doesn’t now.
And if and when it does, in about 20 years time, there will be a commensurate increase in the number or of cars along the corridor so what is the point?

Without Light Rail there will be massively more cars on the road. Who would have thought?

Why will light rail stop people owning and driving cars? Let’s get fair-dinkum for a change.

No_Nose said :

Leon said :

Is there a political party that will get more people on buses?

I would consider using buses if they brought in a “Business Class” with allocated seating, coffee service and a separate entrance.

The two times I have used buses in Canberra involved:

1. Watching a junkie abuse everyone on the bus, and
2. Everyone ignoring the dirty nappy and subsequent smear on the seat and jut pretending that it was occupied.

That was enough for me.

I was really looking forward to that BMW in the Hyperdome carpark, but unfortunately someone burnt it to the ground. And that junkie ramming the police cars has put me off driving for life.

dungfungus said :

JC said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

rubaiyat said :

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

But did the cyclist follow the roads and obey all the road rules, or did they ride through the “No Walking” signs, lane filter and use the footpaths or did they have a path all to themselves clear of any traffic whatsoever? Do you have any evidence to show how this was conducted?
Apples vs oranges. If you had a car that could do all the things the cyclist could, I’m sure the trip would have been even quicker.
Also, you are talking about a city with over 2 million people, not a big country town. They built their rail network in 1998 when the population was over a million and have only just begun the light rail network now. Does Canberra have the dollars coming in that the mining does for WA? No. Do we have the population density to sustain a tram network? No.
These kind of comparisons do not help the cause for a tram in Canberra.
But, just like Lyle Lanley, it’s the catchy jingle and “feel-good” vibe from Andrew Barr that is driving the “genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail” here in Canberra. The evidence is all just theory waiting for the track to bend.

Re population density it only matters along the line not the city as a whole. And in Canberra there is one corridor that has the population density required which is Ta da the northborne ave Flemmington road corridor. The rest of your post is just typical red herring of the anti brigade.

You mean the Northbourne Avenue / Flemington Road corridor may have the potential to have a population density to support a light rail – it certainly doesn’t now.
And if and when it does, in about 20 years time, there will be a commensurate increase in the number or of cars along the corridor so what is the point?

Without Light Rail there will be massively more cars on the road. Who would have thought?

JC said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

rubaiyat said :

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

But did the cyclist follow the roads and obey all the road rules, or did they ride through the “No Walking” signs, lane filter and use the footpaths or did they have a path all to themselves clear of any traffic whatsoever? Do you have any evidence to show how this was conducted?
Apples vs oranges. If you had a car that could do all the things the cyclist could, I’m sure the trip would have been even quicker.
Also, you are talking about a city with over 2 million people, not a big country town. They built their rail network in 1998 when the population was over a million and have only just begun the light rail network now. Does Canberra have the dollars coming in that the mining does for WA? No. Do we have the population density to sustain a tram network? No.
These kind of comparisons do not help the cause for a tram in Canberra.
But, just like Lyle Lanley, it’s the catchy jingle and “feel-good” vibe from Andrew Barr that is driving the “genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail” here in Canberra. The evidence is all just theory waiting for the track to bend.

Re population density it only matters along the line not the city as a whole. And in Canberra there is one corridor that has the population density required which is Ta da the northborne ave Flemmington road corridor. The rest of your post is just typical red herring of the anti brigade.

You mean the Northbourne Avenue / Flemington Road corridor may have the potential to have a population density to support a light rail – it certainly doesn’t now.
And if and when it does, in about 20 years time, there will be a commensurate increase in the number or of cars along the corridor so what is the point?

Leon said :

Is there a political party that will get more people on buses?

I would consider using buses if they brought in a “Business Class” with allocated seating, coffee service and a separate entrance.

The two times I have used buses in Canberra involved:

1. Watching a junkie abuse everyone on the bus, and
2. Everyone ignoring the dirty nappy and subsequent smear on the seat and jut pretending that it was occupied.

That was enough for me.

Leon said :

But if those buses are stuck in congested traffic, who will use them?

Hmmmm! (Hand on chin)

wildturkeycanoe said :

rubaiyat said :

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

But did the cyclist follow the roads and obey all the road rules, or did they ride through the “No Walking” signs, lane filter and use the footpaths or did they have a path all to themselves clear of any traffic whatsoever? Do you have any evidence to show how this was conducted?
Apples vs oranges. If you had a car that could do all the things the cyclist could, I’m sure the trip would have been even quicker.
Also, you are talking about a city with over 2 million people, not a big country town. They built their rail network in 1998 when the population was over a million and have only just begun the light rail network now. Does Canberra have the dollars coming in that the mining does for WA? No. Do we have the population density to sustain a tram network? No.
These kind of comparisons do not help the cause for a tram in Canberra.
But, just like Lyle Lanley, it’s the catchy jingle and “feel-good” vibe from Andrew Barr that is driving the “genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail” here in Canberra. The evidence is all just theory waiting for the track to bend.

Re population density it only matters along the line not the city as a whole. And in Canberra there is one corridor that has the population density required which is Ta da the northborne ave Flemmington road corridor. The rest of your post is just typical red herring of the anti brigade.

Is there a political party that will get more people on buses?

In 2012 Labor made an election commitment to increase the bus journey-to-work mode share to 10.5% in 2016. But the mode share fell from 7.8 per cent in 2011 to 7.1 per cent in 2014. If 10.5% of the population decided to bus to work, there probably wouldn’t be enough buses to carry them.

The Liberals promise more express buses.
But if those buses are stuck in congested traffic, who will use them?

No_Nose said :

rubaiyat said :

Don’t get that that traffic jam every peak hour is real and going to be exactly what you going to get FOREVER, only worse.

Not if they invent hover-cars like my grade 2 teacher promised me we would have by now. Then traffic flow would be three dimensional and we could just leap-frog.

Its almost half a century later and I’ve still not forgiven Miss Bolenko for promising me hover-cars and then not delivering.

Advertising works on the principle that fantasy trumps reality, the beer goggles of the consumer.

That and the 3 minute attention span and guarantee that nobody reads or thinks.

My idiot brother-in-law in New York typically rants about “How bad the traffic is today”.

It’s ALWAYS that bad, according to my sister-in-law, having to endure it every day on the way to work.

“Advertising is to a genuine article what manure is to land, – it largely increases the product.”
? P.T. Barnum, The Humbugs of the World

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

“Once upon a time – and it wasn’t that long ago – you could travel just about anywhere across the metropolitan area in 20 minutes. “Be there in 20 minutes” was the catchcry for motorists.

The lack of traffic jams or commuter crushes were two of the selling points for anyone talking to visitors about the benefits of living in the country’s most isolated capital.”

Sound familiar?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/12954460/perth-set-to-die-from-congestion/

Not Canberra — Perth, the city with massive Federally funded freeways criss-crossing the city east-west, north-south.

Now they are bemoaning the lack of expenditure on public transport, having put it off for most of the minerals boom, finding they now can’t get the infrastructure in place quickly enough and have blown the money on roads.

“There were 43,000 additional cars on WA roads in the past 12 months.

At least 26 carparks the size of Patersons Stadium would be needed to park them.”

This is not rocket science.

Freeways, roads and cars are a tremendously inefficient, dirty and expensive transport system.

I just came back from a week in Perth. My souvenir is a set of 4 ear plugs I had to buy to try and block out the constant traffic noise, so I could sleep at night.

A study referred to in the article points out:

“It’s pretty hard to get rid of congestion like that as long as we keep building suburbs further and further north and south along that line… It will just keep pouring people into that narrow, congested artery.”

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

In New York the average speed of buses on Manhattan has been determined as 6.8 km/hr (a bit above walking pace) because that is the speed of the traffic they are in.

Singapore City planners built bus, rail and underground train systems ahead of population growth rather than play catch-up when it became a problem. A task that is beyond us?

You will always get the hysterical cries of “Not here! Not Now!” from people who never plan ahead .

“We’ve got to get serious. Public transport is the future.”

“In New York the average speed of buses on Manhattan has been determined as 6.8 km/hr (a bit above walking pace) because that is the speed of the traffic they are in.”
Trams in Melbourne are almost twice as fast as that (a vision blurring 12 kmh) so I think you are on a winner there, rube!

Twice as fast is twice at fast!

It’s the slow cars stuck in the “who would have guessed it” traffic jams that ruin it for everyone. Pinstriped, fantasy airfoil on the back, and joke “240” on the clock.

rubaiyat said :

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

But did the cyclist follow the roads and obey all the road rules, or did they ride through the “No Walking” signs, lane filter and use the footpaths or did they have a path all to themselves clear of any traffic whatsoever? Do you have any evidence to show how this was conducted?
Apples vs oranges. If you had a car that could do all the things the cyclist could, I’m sure the trip would have been even quicker.
Also, you are talking about a city with over 2 million people, not a big country town. They built their rail network in 1998 when the population was over a million and have only just begun the light rail network now. Does Canberra have the dollars coming in that the mining does for WA? No. Do we have the population density to sustain a tram network? No.
These kind of comparisons do not help the cause for a tram in Canberra.
But, just like Lyle Lanley, it’s the catchy jingle and “feel-good” vibe from Andrew Barr that is driving the “genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail” here in Canberra. The evidence is all just theory waiting for the track to bend.

rubaiyat said :

Don’t get that that traffic jam every peak hour is real and going to be exactly what you going to get FOREVER, only worse.

Not if they invent hover-cars like my grade 2 teacher promised me we would have by now. Then traffic flow would be three dimensional and we could just leap-frog.

Its almost half a century later and I’ve still not forgiven Miss Bolenko for promising me hover-cars and then not delivering.

rubaiyat said :

“Once upon a time – and it wasn’t that long ago – you could travel just about anywhere across the metropolitan area in 20 minutes. “Be there in 20 minutes” was the catchcry for motorists.

The lack of traffic jams or commuter crushes were two of the selling points for anyone talking to visitors about the benefits of living in the country’s most isolated capital.”

Sound familiar?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/12954460/perth-set-to-die-from-congestion/

Not Canberra — Perth, the city with massive Federally funded freeways criss-crossing the city east-west, north-south.

Now they are bemoaning the lack of expenditure on public transport, having put it off for most of the minerals boom, finding they now can’t get the infrastructure in place quickly enough and have blown the money on roads.

“There were 43,000 additional cars on WA roads in the past 12 months.

At least 26 carparks the size of Patersons Stadium would be needed to park them.”

This is not rocket science.

Freeways, roads and cars are a tremendously inefficient, dirty and expensive transport system.

I just came back from a week in Perth. My souvenir is a set of 4 ear plugs I had to buy to try and block out the constant traffic noise, so I could sleep at night.

A study referred to in the article points out:

“It’s pretty hard to get rid of congestion like that as long as we keep building suburbs further and further north and south along that line… It will just keep pouring people into that narrow, congested artery.”

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

In New York the average speed of buses on Manhattan has been determined as 6.8 km/hr (a bit above walking pace) because that is the speed of the traffic they are in.

Singapore City planners built bus, rail and underground train systems ahead of population growth rather than play catch-up when it became a problem. A task that is beyond us?

You will always get the hysterical cries of “Not here! Not Now!” from people who never plan ahead .

“We’ve got to get serious. Public transport is the future.”

“In New York the average speed of buses on Manhattan has been determined as 6.8 km/hr (a bit above walking pace) because that is the speed of the traffic they are in.”
Trams in Melbourne are almost twice as fast as that (a vision blurring 12 kmh) so I think you are on a winner there, rube!

dungfungus said :

rubaiyat said :

Masquara said :

Since they are ripping the trees from Northbourne – why not forget light rail, and add two more lanes in each direction onto Northbourne, and provide paid parking everywhere people want to park? As well as improving the bus network? Rail isn’t needed out to the airport – buses will do fine for that transport leg. I can’t see the above costing anything like as much as light rail, while giving people what they want, which is car access. Rather than being anti-car, why not be positive about the likelihood of green, eco cars being the norm in another 15 years?. And while they are improving things, they could give those Gungahlin suburbs more exit roads from each suburb. The old suburbs have seven or more exit roads – as it should be.

In Perth they have 12 lane concrete freeways that require huge pedestrian bridges to cross. At the infrequent intervals they actually have them. The one at Leederville I calculate must be at least 500m including the huge spiral ramps to get up onto them.

12 lanes and they still get traffic jams!

Just like L.A. and everywhere else that people foolishly think that “This time it will be different”.

I don’t use the pedestrian bridges in Canberra because they are infested with cyclists who simply ride too fast.

Odd that we have not heard from you on stopping the tax-payer funded pedestrian bridges that you will never use!

rubaiyat said :

Masquara said :

Since they are ripping the trees from Northbourne – why not forget light rail, and add two more lanes in each direction onto Northbourne, and provide paid parking everywhere people want to park? As well as improving the bus network? Rail isn’t needed out to the airport – buses will do fine for that transport leg. I can’t see the above costing anything like as much as light rail, while giving people what they want, which is car access. Rather than being anti-car, why not be positive about the likelihood of green, eco cars being the norm in another 15 years?. And while they are improving things, they could give those Gungahlin suburbs more exit roads from each suburb. The old suburbs have seven or more exit roads – as it should be.

In Perth they have 12 lane concrete freeways that require huge pedestrian bridges to cross. At the infrequent intervals they actually have them. The one at Leederville I calculate must be at least 500m including the huge spiral ramps to get up onto them.

12 lanes and they still get traffic jams!

Just like L.A. and everywhere else that people foolishly think that “This time it will be different”.

I don’t use the pedestrian bridges in Canberra because they are infested with cyclists who simply ride too fast.

The Canberra Liberals are a dangerous clandestine bunch with out-dated ideas and very little substance. It’s all rhetoric with them and they won’t be ripping up any contracts if elected.

“Once upon a time – and it wasn’t that long ago – you could travel just about anywhere across the metropolitan area in 20 minutes. “Be there in 20 minutes” was the catchcry for motorists.

The lack of traffic jams or commuter crushes were two of the selling points for anyone talking to visitors about the benefits of living in the country’s most isolated capital.”

Sound familiar?

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/12954460/perth-set-to-die-from-congestion/

Not Canberra — Perth, the city with massive Federally funded freeways criss-crossing the city east-west, north-south.

Now they are bemoaning the lack of expenditure on public transport, having put it off for most of the minerals boom, finding they now can’t get the infrastructure in place quickly enough and have blown the money on roads.

“There were 43,000 additional cars on WA roads in the past 12 months.

At least 26 carparks the size of Patersons Stadium would be needed to park them.”

This is not rocket science.

Freeways, roads and cars are a tremendously inefficient, dirty and expensive transport system.

I just came back from a week in Perth. My souvenir is a set of 4 ear plugs I had to buy to try and block out the constant traffic noise, so I could sleep at night.

A study referred to in the article points out:

“It’s pretty hard to get rid of congestion like that as long as we keep building suburbs further and further north and south along that line… It will just keep pouring people into that narrow, congested artery.”

The West Australian ran a peak hour race between a bicycle and a car from Leeming, 19km from the city centre. The bike easily won.

In New York the average speed of buses on Manhattan has been determined as 6.8 km/hr (a bit above walking pace) because that is the speed of the traffic they are in.

Singapore City planners built bus, rail and underground train systems ahead of population growth rather than play catch-up when it became a problem. A task that is beyond us?

You will always get the hysterical cries of “Not here! Not Now!” from people who never plan ahead .

“We’ve got to get serious. Public transport is the future.”

Masquara said :

Since they are ripping the trees from Northbourne – why not forget light rail, and add two more lanes in each direction onto Northbourne, and provide paid parking everywhere people want to park? As well as improving the bus network? Rail isn’t needed out to the airport – buses will do fine for that transport leg. I can’t see the above costing anything like as much as light rail, while giving people what they want, which is car access. Rather than being anti-car, why not be positive about the likelihood of green, eco cars being the norm in another 15 years?. And while they are improving things, they could give those Gungahlin suburbs more exit roads from each suburb. The old suburbs have seven or more exit roads – as it should be.

OK you have built huge polluting traffic jams that divide up Canberra into ghettos, full of vehicles of all descriptions whether they are sail powered or not.

Where do you all go when you get where you are headed?

How much does it cost to get there?

How many people are killed or maimed in the process?

Why are we getting fatter and fatter?

Hmm so many mysteries!

More roads have been SOOOOOOO successful everywhere. Delhi now wants to have car free days and possibly a car free city. Beijing, Shanghai etc have proved just how it works and they are only half as polluted as Delhi.

L.A.s lovely brown sheened sky is obviously something we are desperately missing.

That Jamie Oliver series where he showed the schoolkids exactly the awful ingredients that went into the pink slime in their school burgers, that had all the kids going yuck and wretching, had all the kids diving to eat one once it was cooked.

The same Pavlov’s reaction that you get from drivers. Don’t get that that traffic jam every peak hour is real and going to be exactly what you going to get FOREVER, only worse.

Masquara said :

Since they are ripping the trees from Northbourne – why not forget light rail, and add two more lanes in each direction onto Northbourne, and provide paid parking everywhere people want to park? As well as improving the bus network? Rail isn’t needed out to the airport – buses will do fine for that transport leg. I can’t see the above costing anything like as much as light rail, while giving people what they want, which is car access. Rather than being anti-car, why not be positive about the likelihood of green, eco cars being the norm in another 15 years?. And while they are improving things, they could give those Gungahlin suburbs more exit roads from each suburb. The old suburbs have seven or more exit roads – as it should be.

In Perth they have 12 lane concrete freeways that require huge pedestrian bridges to cross. At the infrequent intervals they actually have them. The one at Leederville I calculate must be at least 500m including the huge spiral ramps to get up onto them.

12 lanes and they still get traffic jams!

Just like L.A. and everywhere else that people foolishly think that “This time it will be different”.

Masquara said :

Since they are ripping the trees from Northbourne – why not forget light rail, and add two more lanes in each direction onto Northbourne, and provide paid parking everywhere people want to park? As well as improving the bus network? Rail isn’t needed out to the airport – buses will do fine for that transport leg. I can’t see the above costing anything like as much as light rail, while giving people what they want, which is car access. Rather than being anti-car, why not be positive about the likelihood of green, eco cars being the norm in another 15 years?. And while they are improving things, they could give those Gungahlin suburbs more exit roads from each suburb. The old suburbs have seven or more exit roads – as it should be.

That’s not the way they do it in Paris.

Since they are ripping the trees from Northbourne – why not forget light rail, and add two more lanes in each direction onto Northbourne, and provide paid parking everywhere people want to park? As well as improving the bus network? Rail isn’t needed out to the airport – buses will do fine for that transport leg. I can’t see the above costing anything like as much as light rail, while giving people what they want, which is car access. Rather than being anti-car, why not be positive about the likelihood of green, eco cars being the norm in another 15 years?. And while they are improving things, they could give those Gungahlin suburbs more exit roads from each suburb. The old suburbs have seven or more exit roads – as it should be.

Pork Hunt said :

dungfungus said :

“free wifi”?
Is that like a “free lunch”?

Better, it’s like free beer…

I am now interested.

Do the Libs still propose to take the Barry Drive busway back to a car lane, in the belief this will somehow improve travel times?

Re lack of transparency on the audit report, this is probably a sign of things to come: Dr Hughes at the forum yesterday indicated that, being a PPP, the community is unlikely to get a proper look at the actual $$$ due to a cloak of ‘commercial in confidence.’

miz said :

dungfungus you are probably right – stats provided at the forum today indicated that in most cities where light rail is built, there is little to no change in the proportion of private to public transport.
I think we kind of agree, albeit from two differing sides of the same coin. Certainly people are still going to have and use cars at least sometimes. Cars are convenient and have a purpose. They are not evil! I personally like using buses where possible but also like the convenience of having a car.
I think we do need to greatly improve our city’s public transport for the future, but the light rail model proposed does not cut it, neither on economic grounds nor in terms of ‘greatest good for maximum number’. It costs much, and delivers little for few. However the bus rapid transit model recommended by the government itself meets those tests and would not break the bank. I cannot believe they are so thick.
Unfortunately for Professor Norman, everything she said in the forum today about transport planning for the future could equally apply to buses as to trams, which rendered her broad brush arguments for light rail unconvincing.

Thanks miz.
There is this strange phenomena about the effect trams have on some people when they see them in Europe. It is more a cultural thing I believe.
Politicians an academics appear to be the most impressionable and they of course only use them for the novelty of the occassion, usually off-peak or by arrangement with the light rail promoters so they may actually get a seat and a clean tram. I can assure people who believe this is what regular tram travel is like are being misled as by design, trams carry three times as many standing as sitting and it is very uncomfortable for all.
I have been asking for the government to produce the Nortbourne Avenue underground services audit but they (or any of their many close supporters on this blog) have been silent.
Another problem that needs clarification is everyone who chooses to buy one of the proposed high-density units along the route will also have a car so if another 15,000 people become potential commuter customers for the tram there will be another 15,000 cars to access the main route and access streets when the owners want to go somewhere the tram doesn’t. Off street parking will have to be provided for in the new developments also.
So, saying the tram will reduce congestion is totally disingenuous but the “value adding” by densification is key to the viability of the project.
The whole thing is a crock.

dungfungus said :

“free wifi”?
Is that like a “free lunch”?

Better, it’s like free beer…

dungfungus you are probably right – stats provided at the forum today indicated that in most cities where light rail is built, there is little to no change in the proportion of private to public transport.
I think we kind of agree, albeit from two differing sides of the same coin. Certainly people are still going to have and use cars at least sometimes. Cars are convenient and have a purpose. They are not evil! I personally like using buses where possible but also like the convenience of having a car.
I think we do need to greatly improve our city’s public transport for the future, but the light rail model proposed does not cut it, neither on economic grounds nor in terms of ‘greatest good for maximum number’. It costs much, and delivers little for few. However the bus rapid transit model recommended by the government itself meets those tests and would not break the bank. I cannot believe they are so thick.
Unfortunately for Professor Norman, everything she said in the forum today about transport planning for the future could equally apply to buses as to trams, which rendered her broad brush arguments for light rail unconvincing.

If the Labor Greens are so into public transport why have been cutting back bus services in Canberra for the last 12 years ?

Masquara said :

I don’t want to subsidise Gungahlin commuters – and I don’t want to subsidise the Snows out at the airport.

And most people call me negative!

The Capital Metro website had some inspiring propoganda saying ” an improvement on the current landscape of the corridor and would enhance the heritage values of northbourne avenue.”
With all this extra business, medium density housing and removal of the gum trees, will there be any heritage left to enhance?

Memo to Mr Barr and Mr Corbell
Would one of you please release the audit report of what was found under Northbourne Avenue?
With the silence ongoing we can only assume it was a lot of asbestos pipes and other nasties.
This being the case I can think of no better excuse required to cancel the light rail project and it would be generally considered honourable if you did.
It might even get Labor back at the next election and the Liberals would be happy with that as they show no signs of wanting to govern.

I don’t want to subsidise Gungahlin commuters – and I don’t want to subsidise the Snows out at the airport.

Oh, I *so* want Light Rail & buses down Northbourne. Might as well stuff it up completely. Sod the voters.

I’d be more than happy to use public transport if it was effective. At the moment, though, it doesn’t work for me all.

dungfungus said :

miz said :

dung fungus, even you would use public transport if it was convenient, didn’t take too much longer than driving and meant you didn’t have to pay for parking.
My commuter route is exactly that.
I am in one way thankful Tuggeranong will not be getting light rail anytime soon, because they will leave my great bus route alone. I feel truly sorry for those northside people who currently have great Xpresso buses that will get re-routed to the darn tram (should it proceed), which will take twice as long as now for them to get to work.

While cars are cheaper and more efficient than ever before and our roads are uncongested I have no need to use public transport. These circumstances may change over time and I do understand why you use ACTION given your circumstances and I respect that.
That doesn’t change the fact that very few people use public transport in Canberra and introduction of trams will not change that situation other than a modal shift in the way it is used.

As a novelty the tram may get some heightened patronage in its early days, but as people realize how slow and inconvenient it is, how it will be necessary to catch a bus to deviate from the 12km corridor in order to continue or divert to their destination anyway, they will slowly revert back to buses, cars and bicycles.
The tram must stop at every pickup/drop-off point on its jolly trip, so do not expect an express delivery to work. Passengers will need to leave home earlier and get home later. Who wants to sacrifice their own time to “feel good” about the environment, or simply be part of “the future”?
Should not a new technology, progress, be better than what is existing? How is going slower called progress? How is turning something adaptive and flexible into a service that will come to a complete stand-still should one piece of equipment fail an improvement?
Canthetram.

miz said :

dung fungus, even you would use public transport if it was convenient, didn’t take too much longer than driving and meant you didn’t have to pay for parking.
My commuter route is exactly that.
I am in one way thankful Tuggeranong will not be getting light rail anytime soon, because they will leave my great bus route alone. I feel truly sorry for those northside people who currently have great Xpresso buses that will get re-routed to the darn tram (should it proceed), which will take twice as long as now for them to get to work.

While cars are cheaper and more efficient than ever before and our roads are uncongested I have no need to use public transport. These circumstances may change over time and I do understand why you use ACTION given your circumstances and I respect that.
That doesn’t change the fact that very few people use public transport in Canberra and introduction of trams will not change that situation other than a modal shift in the way it is used.

dungfungus said :

miz said :

Seriously. We all want better public transport but many Canberrans (who are smart and politically savvy) are unconvinced by the tram model proposed, for a myriad of sensible reasons.
Sounds like Mr Barr is getting worried!

How can you say “we all want better public transport” when only about 8% of us use it?

Maybe because we’re interested in the well-being of the community, not just ourselves.

Beware the Edinburgh tram.

I meant to add, and we could all benefit from better bus services if the ACT Govt followed their own advice and implemented rapid bus transit. At the moment, we are getting punished for wanting to go to Civic in a car in the evening (ridiculously punitive parking fees) even though there is minimal public transport coverage at that hour.

dung fungus, even you would use public transport if it was convenient, didn’t take too much longer than driving and meant you didn’t have to pay for parking.
My commuter route is exactly that.
I am in one way thankful Tuggeranong will not be getting light rail anytime soon, because they will leave my great bus route alone. I feel truly sorry for those northside people who currently have great Xpresso buses that will get re-routed to the darn tram (should it proceed), which will take twice as long as now for them to get to work.

“….the reallocation of 1.2 million annual bus kilometres freed up by stage 1 of the light rail network to improve the Canberra-wide bus service….

Well of course, and that will be so easy to do, because light rail is never ever (really truly!) going to cost the ACT Budget one cent……so all those subsidised ACTION services which will be cancelled or curtailed when (if not before) the trams start rolling will be able to be reallocated to other parts of Canberra.

The Magic Pudding is a wonderful story, for children of all ages, but it is no basis for public sector budgeting.

Barr says: “We have the opportunity to build an efficient and affordable public transport network for the future of our city.”

I don’t think Barr’s definition of affordable is the same as the average rate payer.

My question still is, why would anyone prefer a SLOW tram to a faster/cheaper/more-flexible bus network? It must be about what developers want, as they seem to be the current governments primary constituents.

Has Barr tried to explain why they’re going with Light Rail instead of Bus Rapid Transit, when the ACT Government’s own submission to Infrastructure Australia showed BRT provided a better cost benefit ratio for the ACT?

Why is there a vote on this in the assembly when the project is already pretty much underway with little hope of stopping it? Talk about shutting the gate after the horse has bolted.

miz said :

Seriously. We all want better public transport but many Canberrans (who are smart and politically savvy) are unconvinced by the tram model proposed, for a myriad of sensible reasons.
Sounds like Mr Barr is getting worried!

How can you say “we all want better public transport” when only about 8% of us use it?

Seriously. We all want better public transport but many Canberrans (who are smart and politically savvy) are unconvinced by the tram model proposed, for a myriad of sensible reasons.
Sounds like Mr Barr is getting worried!

“free wifi”?
Is that like a “free lunch”?