5 April 2009

Canberra's Little Girls 3 v. Abductors 0

| johnboy
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[First filed: April 03, 2009 @ 17:08]

[First filed: April 03, 2009 @ 12:23]

ACT Policing warns us of a third abduction attempt in the last week:

    ACT Policing is investigating an attempted abduction from Knoke Avenue, Gordon around 9.10am today (April 3).

    A 10-year-old girl was walking to school when she was approached by a male who offered to give her a lift. The victim refused and was then grabbed by the wrist and dragged toward a vehicle by the male who is described as approximately 5’9” (175cm) tall, with black hair, dark skin and driving a light blue vehicle similar to a Mitsubishi Mirage.

    The victim escaped by kicking the offender in the shins and running to her school.

    This is the third incident where a young person has been grabbed by a stranger in Canberra this week.

    Police would urge members of the public to be vigilant and report all suspicious behavior to police, on 131-444 or if not urgent contact Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000.

    A face-fit of the offender will be prepared and distributed as soon as possible.

UPDATED: The media unit has announced the release of a facefit but not actually included the facefit in their announcement (as of 17:09).

666 radio reports are suggesting this one could be related to the original Conder incident, which at least means only the one predator down south rather than two.

Further Update: The facefit is finally online.

For those of you wittering “what is the world coming to” I’d suggest this:

The world has come to a place where 12 year old girls are empowered enough to stand up for themselves and kick these bastards in the shins. In the so-called “good old days” they just disapeared. For those of you critical of my headline here’s the point. This isn’t a one off lucky escape, this is a winning streak. Now we just need an arrest, a prosecution, and a healthy sentence.

It kicks the arse out of the old “ignorance is bliss and suffer in silence” era.

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Ruby Wednesday said :

And for the sentence when the sick son of a b.tch is caught, well lets just hope the new prision has the same tolerance for child molesters as we hear about on TV

Let’s hope not. Terms of imprisonment are meant to be punishment, not ‘revenge’. Sexual assault against anyone should not be acceptable to our society, prisoner or not.

+1

SkipDaRoo said :

I agree with bits of everyone, I know the odds of it happening to your children are slim, but that chance no matter what is so sickening.

And for the sentence when the sick son of a b.tch is caught, well lets just hope the new prision has the same tolerance for child molesters as we hear about on TV

Well if the guy does get caught he is not going to be getting charged with child molestation is he.
Unless of course he is arrested for a different case. At this stage it looks like attempted abduction. Which isn’t likely to get a big sentence.

I heard a radio report on 666 a couple of weeks ago, before these reported incidents, of a similar incident in Jerrabomberra – some guy trying to grab a young girl off the street. However, heard nothing about it since.

I understand parents feeling scared at the thought of child abduction, but it is pretty unlikely. Walking buses are great. It would be a shame if kids stopped walking to school because of a perceived but unlikely threat.

As Pommy Bastard and Clown Killer have touched on, there’s no point going on and on about stranger danger if a friend of the family has decided that your child is ‘special’ and should therefore share a ‘special secret’. I’ve heard several rape and sexual assault stories from friends over the years and it was always someone they knew, a family friend, a babysitter or, when they’re older, a first boyfriend etc.

Clown Killer5:36 pm 05 Apr 09

… I know the odds of it happening to your children are slim, but that chance no matter what is so sickening.

Your chances of winning to lottery only improve marginally when you buy a ticket, but that doesn’t stop people from buying them. Parents are still going to be extra vigilant even though the probability of an attack is still low.

Whilst the sad reality is that our children are at far greater risk of being molested by a family member or someone close to the family – it seems that the threat of violence from a complete stranger is still a more potent fear.

I think that as a society that values our children, we should all prove it. As adults we should all let these rockspiders know that if they want to mess with our young people, they will have to deal with us as well. Police cannot be everywhere, but at all times of the day we all are. Be proactive about this. Send the message to these vermin that we will find you and identify you. I was raped in my younger days and had no one to help or protect me. Those memories have stayed with me all of my life, and I will be damned if I would stand around and let it happen to any other child. If you are one of these animals reading this thinking you are so smart by not being caught, know this – you better pray that the police get you before me or my friends do. There is a difference between the Law and Justice. I am the Justice type that will protect those that cant protect themselves.

Ruby Wednesday3:49 pm 05 Apr 09

And for the sentence when the sick son of a b.tch is caught, well lets just hope the new prision has the same tolerance for child molesters as we hear about on TV

Let’s hope not. Terms of imprisonment are meant to be punishment, not ‘revenge’. Sexual assault against anyone should not be acceptable to our society, prisoner or not.

TAD said :

=This is just like the drink spiking campaigns from a few years ago. Did anyone notice the massive drop in reported drink spinking incidents the moment the police and media stopped their education campaigns.

My friend still swears her thirteenth drink was spiked

I agree with bits of everyone, I know the odds of it happening to your children are slim, but that chance no matter what is so sickening.

And for the sentence when the sick son of a b.tch is caught, well lets just hope the new prision has the same tolerance for child molesters as we hear about on TV

grunge_hippy9:38 pm 04 Apr 09

my sister in law lives not 200m from the last abduction attempt, and the police were door knocking within an hour of it happening. worrying is she asked my 6 year old nephew if a man approached him and asked him to get into his car he said he would because it was nice of the man to offer a lift. we need to go back to telling kids about stranger danger and that not everyone is a nice person.

the first attempt did actually happen because the little girl has the bruises to prove it. (i know someone who knows the victim)

lets hope they catch the dodgy bastard!

But he’s relying on the descriptions from 2 girls 10 and 11 years old?

As I said, I’m not saying he’s wrong, but to think that 2 kids would come up with exactly the same description is pushing it. I guarantee 2 adults will give different descriptions of the same person.

Honestly, I really hope that it isn’t happening and that TAD is right, I just think it’s not right to assume at this stage that’s all.

I have the funny feeling that TAD is correct on this one.

But better to be safe than sorry I guess.

Caution is great, got no problem with that. But from the comments I read earlier god help anyone who actually looked like one of the facefits.

You don’t find it interesting that last week we had no attempted abductions but this weeks there were three distinctly different child abductors busy? (not to mention a fourth today at Gungahlin that may or may not become the subject of a media release)

http://www.act.crimestoppers.com.au/unsolvedcrimes_details.aspx?CrimeId=769

http://www.act.crimestoppers.com.au/unsolvedcrimes_details.aspx?CrimeId=768

http://www.act.crimestoppers.com.au/unsolvedcrimes_details.aspx?CrimeId=765

TAD – I’m not saying it did nor am I saying it didn’t happen. But to assume it didn’t is a little naive.

Give them the benefit of the doubt. If it was happening and you didn’t believe the girl that told you, how would you feel if you later found out she was telling the truth.

Just because the Goulburn one “may not have happened” does not mean these ones didn’t.

Besides, its a great reminder to tell kids about stranger danger, regardless of the facts.

TAD said :

(TAD)” God you are all sheep…this is a load of crap….what isn’t giving it away to you that this is rubbish?..caracature facefits…The different descriptions of the offenders…”

Oh, OK, thanks Chief Inspector.

What’s the far more likely scenario

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/01/2434494.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/05/2438936.htm

(And any connection between “Be alert, not alarmed” campaigns and sightings of foreigners photographing govts building and wearing backpacks on public transport is purely coincidental). I’m not trying to aggravate anyone, but think it’s silly that commenters are working themselves into lather over something that is clearly not actually happening.

TAD – you clearly aren’t a woman and have never been a child.

God you are all sheep.

This is a load of crap. The more media this gets, the more little girls will see the bogeyman attempting to abduct them from the street. Sit down with your daughters and “inform” them, then sure enough they will see the bogeyman as well.

What isn’t giving it away to you that this is rubbish? The caracature facefits? The different descriptions of the offenders and vehicles perhaps?

This is just like the drink spiking campaigns from a few years ago. Did anyone notice the massive drop in reported drink spinking incidents the moment the police and media stopped their education campaigns.

Anyway, it’s up to you. Keep scaring yourselves that boogeymen paedophiles are out to abduct your daughters if it makes you feel better.

I think JB has a valid point re little girs being self aware enough and brave enough to attempt to fend off an attack. Too many parents and older people believe that kids should repect their elders simply because they have been on this earth longer. I totally disagree with this. A person only deserves respect if they earn it, regardless of age. This kind of blind deference to the status quo is an enabler of abuse. (Viva la revolucion!)

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

Why? They’re not apprehensive about the number of kids who went into the emergency room last night for the million other things more likely to hurt or kill kids. It’s an irrational spiral of fear, and the only people who can stop it are parents.

I know that, logically, you are right Woody. I guess this abduction scenario just preys on every parent’s worse fear – to have your child taken away and for you to have no idea where they are or what they are going through. I think abduction by a stranger is far worse than an emergency room scenario, because of the ‘not knowing’/wondering aspect.

old canberran1:05 pm 04 Apr 09

Agreed Woody, more kids will hurt themselves today falling off bikes, but abduction seems to have some sort of irrational fear for parents. Pretty much a parents worse nightmare. Perceived danger versus actual danger.

Couldn’t agree more. There is a vast difference between some molester violating a little girl compared with her being injured in a car accident, both for the parent and the child.

Woody Mann-Caruso12:33 pm 04 Apr 09

Oh, definitely.

Pommy bastard11:41 am 04 Apr 09

WMC, what are the statistcs for kids raped or abused by strangers?

I’m aware that most sexual abuse takes place within the extended family, but the chance of rape or abuse by strangers still exists.

Woody Mann-Caruso10:40 am 04 Apr 09

Why? They’re not apprehensive about the number of kids who went into the emergency room last night for the million other things more likely to hurt or kill kids. It’s an irrational spiral of fear, and the only people who can stop it are parents.

WMC – I agree, as I said earlier, ‘be alert – not alarmed’. My kids never go out without my wife or I being nearby so I’m not worried for my kids so much. After much teaching on the subject, I also trust they know what to do if they do get lost while we are out or if they are approached by a stranger. They know that in such a case anything they can do to hurt the attacker and attract attention is allowed.

I’d just like to think if some poor kid does have this happen to them, they are able to run to the nearest house knowing that safety lies within.

Woody Mann-Caruso9:36 am 04 Apr 09

do you know the fear that this type of behaviour provokes in a parent?

I’m a parent of two small children and it doesn’t worry me at all. Our kids are more likely to be hurt or die in a car crash than at the hands of a stranger – much, much more likely – but I don’t freak out about putting them in a car. They’re even more likely to be hurt or die in an accident at home, but I’m not about to keep them locked in a padded room either.

Go read this book – it’s online for free, and it’s short. A quick quote (note these stats are for the UK):

“Around five to seven children a year are killed by strangers. Looking at children in
the 5 to 11 age range (who, as we saw in Chapter 1, have experienced a dramatic loss
of freedom, partly as a result of the fear of strangers), unpublished government figures
show that, on average, two primary schoolchildren are killed by strangers each year.

The Home Office data on which this second statistic is based gives the numbers and
ages of murder victims, aged under 16 years, killed by strangers in England and Wales
for each year between 1995 and 2004/5. It shows that in 1995 not a single child
between 5 and 11 was killed by a stranger. By contrast, in 2002/3 four children of
primary school age were killed by a stranger. But there is no trend: in each of the two
years following 2002/3 there was just one case. The annual figure changes randomly
throughout the 11-year period.

In fact, the figures have been at around their current level for decades. Precisely
because the crime is so rare, it can be stated with near certainty that there are no more
predatory child killers at large today than there were in 1990 or 1975. These statistics
categorically refute the dominant media message that dangerous, predatory strangers
represent a significant or growing threat to children.”

The book explains why it’s much, much better to teach your kids protective behaviours to apply in particular circumstances (as these brave little girls have done) rather than a blanket fear of stranger, 99.9999999999% of whom have kids’ best interests at heart and can help them when they’re in trouble.

Pommy bastard8:23 am 04 Apr 09

Now we just need an arrest, a prosecution, and a healthy sentence.

As the father of a beautiful young girl I ‘m more inclined to the belief that any sentence they get should be very unhealthy.

Am I alone in believing that if the person responsible looks anything like the identikit photo, then they should not be too hard to track down? May be being shielded?

A paedophile or sex offender register can be a two edged sword. Such a thing exists in the UK and there have been quite a few mistaken identities which ended up with innocent men having the sh*t kicked out of them by the public taking matters into their own hands.

I wonder if martial arts schools will be inundated with new young students.

My grandson was taught if a stranger grabbed you, you must scream and kick the person in the shins, so I asked him (just checking) what he would do if someone did that to him being three at the time, he replied he would scream and kick him in the nuts, not silly

I sat down with my kids tonight and told them what’s happened this week. I’ve told them do anything it takes to get away, gouge their eyes out, kick them in the privates, do whatever it takes and don’t be scared of hurting them.

It makes me sick thinking there are guys like this out there.

Nothing I can prove….

Soon my pretty, soon…

Oi! What’s Batman done?

I never said it was one guy they will all fall under this umbrella in each case. The one thing that would be scary is if they aren’t caught and haven’t been scared out of it then they are gaining something which will make them dangerous…experience.

Oh they will also be young and be intimidated by adult females.

I condone vigilantes in all circumstances. Unless they beat the wrong person to death then you’re in trouble…I’m talking to you…Batman

Back in the last week term 2 or 3 2004 at Kambah High School, we had a ******************************* who was bashing & robbing Kambah High, Urambi Primary & Mt Neighbour Primary School students. During this week, we had Police driving up & down the bike paths, K9 unit walking through the bushes. On the last day of term, Year 10 Kambah High students ended up finding them culprits & ganging up & bashing them up.

I am sure I am not alone when I say if I see something like that when I am driving I’ll either run the culprit down or call the Police & follow the culprit & do whatever I have to to catch up.

But I do not condone any vigilantly groups yet.

I dunno – I still find it petrifying. If it is one loner type person, where is he getting all these different cars. And if the cars belong to family and friends why hasn’t someone clicked yet.

I think the success of the kids in these cases is fairly typical of this sort of offense. First you have the criminology of the attempted abduction which is incredibly unsophisticated, against a victim of minute proportions and the attempt is given up very easily. It’s kind of like a shark taking a bite of a surfer and discovering surfboards don’t taste like seals so they let it alone. These crimes would be committed by a loner, coward with no experience with children (except in their head) who is merely trying out the first stage of the fantasy. Then you have the victims who are tiny but fight with a fair bit of gusto enough usually to surprise the offender enough to make them unsure what to do next hence giving a little kid the chance to get away. For a child that young survival instincts really kicks into fight or flight before the higher brain is activated. So you have a stupid cowardly inexperienced criminal opposing a surprisingly gutsy, quick reacting target who quickly dispels this crime of fantasy and opportunity.

The cops will be out trawling for a low level dumb single known nuisance who has started to graduate his fantasies either through loss of control through drugs or alcohol or something has happened like he recently got fired or kicked out of his rental or similar.

Anyone interested in why these snatches rarely come off should read “mindhunter” or
“anatomy of motive” by John Douglas it’ll help you educate your kids.

Johnboy, Here are your lost face fits, the lastest attempt, 3 April here
http://www.afp.gov.au/media_releases/act/2009/attempted_abduction_in_gordon
And the earlier one, 30 March here http://www.afp.gov.au/media_releases/act/2009/attempted_kidnap_in_conder

Sir Robert Peel is seen by many as the fore father of modern policing and he had, amoung many, one memorable principle “The police are the public, and the public are the police”. We all need to keep an eye out for these lowlifes, they are preying on our young. Report what you see and know to crimestoppers or directly to Police 131444. Remember 000 is for an emergency and if you see an abduction attempt get on the phone. No frenzy required farq, John Laws or otherwise but pay attention. Look for information that Police can identify these goons, registration plates, car makes, models, standout features (stickers, logos etc).

I live down in the valley myself and I can’t stand knowing there are people in our community that are capable of this. I will be always looking out for these guys.

TAD said :

I would not get overexcited and get into a John Laws audience type frenzy.

but the drama. the masses need their drama.

if it was not pedophiles, they would find something else 🙂

I would not get overexcited and get into a John Laws audience type frenzy.

These are all BS.

Ruby Wednesday7:30 pm 03 Apr 09

nutso, if your assertion that the thread should be renamed was serious, then you’re a little nutso. Statistically, children are probably more likely to be harmed by traffic on the way to school than someone snatching them. It’s worrying, but let’s not all run around like Henny Penny.

Timberwolf65 said :

old canberran said :

The world is sick and twisted place.

My wife says this and I always coirrect her, “No, the world is a wonderful place with a few sick and twisted people in it spoiling it for others”

Timberwolf657:01 pm 03 Apr 09

old canberran said :

Rapists should be sentenced to a weeks internment in a women’s prison. Actually 24 hours would probably do the job.

I like the sound of that, I reckon it would work quite nicely!

I take my 8 year old son to school and he scooters straight home in the afternoons, we live 5 minutes away from school, some days I will be there to walk home with him.

I have showed him the identikit photo from the last attempted abduction, and I talk about strangers and what to do all the time.

The world is sick and twisted place.

BerraBoy68, reinvigorating Safety House and NW programs is fine, but they have fallen by the wayside largely because of community apathy.

I was involved with NW for many years, and moved on as I felt it was time for younger people to get involved. They never did.

It needs commitment from all generations for community programs such as these to be effective.

old canberran6:25 pm 03 Apr 09

Rapists should be sentenced to a weeks internment in a women’s prison. Actually 24 hours would probably do the job.

Just what do some people expect the Government to do in these anti social cases. Kids are their parents responsibility, not the Government. No amount of legislation is going to stop these predators so if you are worried about your child’s safety, take them to school and pick them up later or arrange for someone else to do it.

Granny said :

The walking school buses are a great idea. People can do something positive by getting involved with these programs or starting one for your school.

We have one at our school and its brilliant. Click here for more information on the Walking School Bus Program. The YWCA runs in here in Canberra but needs volunteers to roll it out at the local schools.

I dont think that we should address this page as
Canberra’s Little Girls 3 v. Abductors 0
This might provoke some further stupid action from these sikos to even the scores
do u get me?

Not sure what the government can do but I think a reinvigoration of the ‘safe house’ initiative or even neighborhood watch would be a good thing. As a father of little kids I’d like to think they could go to the nearest house if in trouble rather than having to running to the school. I’d also like to think other adults would come to their aid if they saw an attempted abduction taking place or even heard a kid yelling for help. Actually I think most people would help anyway. My son hurt himself falling off his bike at a park recently and before I could get to him several other adults came out of their homes to assist as he was crying pretty hard.

Basically, I’m arming my kids by trying to be a good dad, taking them to and from school, the park etc. teaching them about stranger danger (including what to do if they are approached) and teaching them who to go to if lost, hurt etc… I’m also putting some faith in the broader community to look after our kids if they see something bad happening.

I was very pleased to hear about the motorist who stopped recently when they saw an attempted abduction of a young women. When they honked their horn the offender ran off. I hate to use the phrase but being ‘alert not alarmed’ sure helps.

deezagood said :

I’m torn between thinking the trackers are a great safety idea and wondering if that would make me a weird/paranoid/overly-protective parent … certainly worth thinking about in any case

I am the latter…

I’m torn between thinking the trackers are a great safety idea and wondering if that would make me a weird/paranoid/overly-protective parent … certainly worth thinking about in any case

Rather than rely on the govt to track the predators, you could use the same technology to track the prey (i.e. your kid/s).

http://www.mongoose.com.au/gps/pt101—personal-tracker.aspx

Similar units are always available on Ebay.

Not perfect by any means, but they work and are getting cheaper all the time.

They sure are! They give the kids exercise and build community, in addition to keeping the children safe from cars and predators. The link is here.

Clown Killer3:31 pm 03 Apr 09

if these b*stards could be tracked, so we always knew where they were…

Peterh, unfortunately for the vast majority of people who get caught for these crimes, it is the first time that they have come to the attention of the police. With the exception of a small number of well publicised instances involving recidivists these predators will have a clean record. A register is little more than a clumsy tool to appease those in the electorate who probably should have paid more attention at school.

Granny, I love those walking buses. Friends of ours do that in Melbourne, they’re a great idea.

The walking school buses are a great idea. People can do something positive by getting involved with these programs or starting one for your school.

captainwhorebags said :

peterh, not saying that is a bad idea per se, but how would a national pedophile register have helped in this situation? I’m not aware of how these registers are supposed to work.

if these b*stards could be tracked, so we always knew where they were, in fact, thinking about it, with a gps tagged bracelet, we could provide safer conditions for our kids. no human rights for them. none.

and jb, i watch my children very carefully. no one goes near my kids – to talk to them or touch them without mine or my wife’s knowledge. Strangers are kept at arms length. They are my world, and if the act govt took the time to look at the possible solutions to this problem, perhaps i wouldn’t be so overprotective.

monomania,

when the ACT govt closed down the school near me, it forced us to re-think our location in relation to suitable schools. we are now looking to move to a suburb that has a primary school and preschool located in easy walking distance. I want my kids to be safe walking to school.

Calwell Resident3:08 pm 03 Apr 09

I am a father of a six year old and this is a very worrying trend. Especially so close to school hols when the kids will want to be outside and playing. I recommend all adults, not just parents be vigilant and aware not only for your own kids but all in your neighbourhood

These people wanting to know what the Govt is doing about it. What a stupid thing to say its a random nutcase. What the hell can you do about that? maybe lock up the all the kids?

captainwhorebags said :

I’m glad that the Legislative Assembly had the foresight to address this issue. By closing schools within walking distance they have compelled children to use alternative transport such as buses and cars, thus avoiding being snatched by perverts.

Bravo.

Give it up. This a serious issue and the post has nothing to do with school closures.

Clown Killer said :

We’re not taking any chances – it’s drop-off and pick-up at the class room door for my five and eight year olds.

Same here; door to door. I also showed the kids the identikit photo from the last abuction attempt and had another good chat with them about stranger-danger. This is very worrying … I honestly used to feel really safe living in Canberra (one of the reasons we moved here from Melbourne) … but these days, not so much.

captainwhorebags2:22 pm 03 Apr 09

peterh, not saying that is a bad idea per se, but how would a national pedophile register have helped in this situation? I’m not aware of how these registers are supposed to work.

So you WANT a useless and possibly counter-productive knee jerk just so you can feel better without making your child one tiny bit safer?

That’s one of the most selfish things I’ve ever heard.

at a risk of moderation, jb, do you know the fear that this type of behaviour provokes in a parent? The fact that these predators are targeting little girls – worries the hell out of me. If the act government are doing something, perhaps a one line from their media office saying “ACT Government debates crackdown on child abuse” or “ACT government calls for a National Pedophile register” would go a long way to help me feel better, and know that they are actually doing something. The AFP can’t be expected to be the people’s protectors alone…

I’ve a five year old girl and live very close to the site of the first incident in Banks. Now there’s these subsequent incidents. Worrying.

But I wouldn’t say there’s been no response. This week each morning as I walk to the bus stop there’s been visible police presence, and lots of parents standing with their kids at the bus stop. Lots of vigilant community members.

Hope all these eyes find the rockspider.

captainwhorebags said :

I’m glad that the Legislative Assembly had the foresight to address this issue. By closing schools within walking distance they have compelled children to use alternative transport such as buses and cars, thus avoiding being snatched by perverts.

Bravo.

is that what you mean, jb?

captainwhorebags1:26 pm 03 Apr 09

I’m glad that the Legislative Assembly had the foresight to address this issue. By closing schools within walking distance they have compelled children to use alternative transport such as buses and cars, thus avoiding being snatched by perverts.

Bravo.

This is so scary – and wierd that all three of the abductors have been described totally differently – are they a gang – can there really be three separate ones, or is it one person and confused descriptions.

I hope they catch someone soon.

Engage Brain before commenting Peter.

What makes you think they’re not doing something?

where are they coming from? and what is the motivation for them to try to snatch kids?

why aren’t the act govt cracking down on this type of behavior, instead of worrying about bikies and their behaviour??

Clown Killer12:41 pm 03 Apr 09

We’re not taking any chances – it’s drop-off and pick-up at the class room door for my five and eight year olds.

Is this a different guy? I must say I’m impressed with the quick thinking of these young girls, especially in the face of the differential in strength.

Unfortunately, I no longer believe there’s any point in the police even bothering to catch them. There’ll no doubt be some technicality or other that sees them roaming free two seconds later. I wouldn’t even put my kid through the trauma of testifying.

If you don’t expect anything of the system it can’t hurt you or let you down.

V twin venom12:36 pm 03 Apr 09

Gutsy little kid – you go girl! Steel caps will soon be the school shoe of choice.

Mini venom (9) rides a scooter to school and has been taught how to spin it above his head and direct a blow that would break bones if required.

Primary defense will always be be.. break free scream and run.

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