Double fatality in Clift Crescent car crash

lanyon chick said :

My 17 year old son was friends with three of these people. We have just been informed the driver has just died, that makes three, the other girl is still in intensive care. yes they were speeding and had all just left a party at the slovenian club, apparently alcohol was also a factor.very tragic …..but unfortunatley i still dont beleive these young ones will learn from it.

No, the driver did not die, I was talking to the police on Tuesday and the driver is alive – I was going to say ‘ok’, but what sort of moron drives past at 160kmh on a suburban street! I and others have seen this car doing this sort of speed a number of times in the daytime and unfortunately he goes past way too fast to get his rego. It was just a matter of time before he killed somone – sad it wasn;t himself! Unfortunaley, the two people who were killed were not wearing seat belts.

I’m pretty sure if I went back a couple of hundreds years in time I’d find out that young men rode horses too fast and died falling off them. Once in a while they probably took their lady friend along with them and it was a tragedy for the entire village and everyone tut tutted about such a young man on a big strong horse, jumping fences and splashing through creeks. Fast forward to every other week…

Here’s the deal, the road is a big complicated ever changing system it is unavoidable that collisions and crashes happen in pretty much the same statistical rate as 200 years ago when carriages ran over pedestrians rather regularly.

Calls for increasing complexity to the system will only create more likelihood of accidents. Sure we could speed limit every car to 110 km/h and use GPS to prevent any form of speeding anywhere but then someone will die because they got stuck between a rock and a hard place and couldn’t get out of the way. Who hasn’t done 65-70 in a 60 zone in order to scoot around someone or even simply change lanes safely with some clearance or a thousand other reasons every day a driver might need to go faster than a posted speed sign.

It is very sad for sure but also as inevitable as falling off a horse. My 2c.

Holden Caulfield said :

Nissan (in Japan) does it with the new GT-R. The car is limited to 180km/h. However, the tricky thing is the GPS knows if the car is on a racetrack and at such times will automatically disengage the speed limiter.

And at about the same time, Nissan disengage the warranty :p

Die Lefty Scum said :

A picture of the death-machine?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1423498&id=553607903#/photo.php?pid=1423497&id=553607903

I think you’ll find that is NOT a picture of the “death-machine”. That could well be a car owned by Steven Rial but he was a passenger, not the driver.

@CoffinRX2

any chance you can let me know what routes you travel (and when) and I’ll try to avoid you.

Did anyone see Catalyst the other night about the ‘winner effect’?
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2525497.htm

“What happens in the winner effect in the wild is that after a while these male animals have higher and higher levels of testosterone they become overconfident, they take too much risk”

I use to think i was ‘good’ driver but it was just the testosterone.

Die Lefty Scum said :

A picture of the death-machine?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1423498&id=553607903#/photo.php?pid=1423497&id=553607903

If that’s it, that’s not even an HSV (that I can tell). That said it could have its fully sik Nissan turbo engine boosted beyond comprehension. And the worst handling car I have ever driven happens to be a VL Commondore (and I learnt to drive in a 1971 HG Premier). I can’t imagine the safety cell of the old VL would be much help either.

🙁

Bill Quinn said :

There’s nothing noble or virtuous about that — it’s just common bloody courtesy, something that I find sadly lacking in so many in so many of my worlds. It’s still nice to get a friendly, appreciative wave from other drivers, even (gasp!) leather-clad bikies, as they pass by.

Hear, hear. Kudos for the courteous driving approach.

A picture of the death-machine?

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1423498&id=553607903#/photo.php?pid=1423497&id=553607903

Megan and Steve will be dearly missed by all who knew and loved them. Rochelle who was the front seat passenger will recover thank god.

The 4 kids were coming from a 17th birthday party that was fancy dress, they were going to get changed so they could go out again.

Steve’s funeral is being held on Friday and Megan’s is undecided at present.

It is such a waste of life, these kids were beautiful they were fun and they enjoyed their lives and their lives should have never ended so soon. Nobody should ever have to burry their child.

The driver will forever live in his own grief at the carnage he has left behind because of his irresponsible actions.

I know that the friends left behind have been slapped with a real reality check, there is no second chance on the road or when you choose to get into a car with an irresponsible person who thinks they are immortal.

Madame Workalot said :

Bill Quinn said :

Having said that, Mme Workalot, there is a special place in hell reserved for people who drive 10-40 kms/h under the speed limit in single lanes and then speed up to 110km/hr when there’s an overtaking lane.

Big hello to the couple in the ute on King’s Highway yesterday about 3pm coming in to Bungendore. Love your work.

And to that I wholeheartedly agree! I always pull over if the person behind me can’t immediately pass me. Yeah, it makes for a long trip but I know how frustrated I get when someone does what you described to me 🙂

Yep, I’m with you on that one. Due to a series of unfortunate f&&&-ups, I’m currently car-less and have been begging, borrowing and hiring a series of different vehicles, from a mighty 1.1L buzzbox to a 13-seater bus, so when my capacity to keep to the legal limit is compromised, I watch my rear-view mirror and just pull over anytime someone’s behind me who has the capacity to legally or even just-a-tad-more-than-legally pass me.

There’s nothing noble or virtuous about that — it’s just common bloody courtesy, something that I find sadly lacking in so many in so many of my worlds. It’s still nice to get a friendly, appreciative wave from other drivers, even (gasp!) leather-clad bikies, as they pass by.

Firstly, my condolonces to all families involved, I can’t begin to imagine how they would be feeling right now.

Excessive speed was clearly the biggest factor in the severity of this crash, but the cause was the driver’s attitude. If a rear occupant wasn’t wearing a seatbelt, then that decision by them – and by the driver to overlook it – just multiplied the waste of life. Seeing the photo of the car in the CT today (paper issue, not online) also seems to show the car had narrower “stock” 15″ steel rims on the back and the proper HSV factory mags on the front – a favourite of the “2 turning, 2 burning” tail-out-everywhere crowd. It was clearly an accident waiting to happen.

I don’t know how road transport Ministers can sleep at night when they preside over such a weak and inadequate driver licencing system. It is a truism that prople are taught to pass the driving test, not how to drive. Add a bit of peer pressure, a lack of experience and risk taking behaviour (all attitudinal issues that can’t be legislated against) along with easy access to a powerful car and what you have is today’s front page.

Would this crash (I can’t use the term accident) have occurred if the driver had been required to attend a car control course, be taught only by trained professionals, or do a tour of an Emergency Department? I’m not sure, some people don’t – and will never have – the right attitude, but I’d like to believe they would reduce the chances of people making the wrong choice AND having a bit more of a chance to reduce the consequences of a bad decision.

As the police state today, this could have happened in a Mini – but undeniably there is more likelihood of it happening in a 10yo HSV. And with the cry for GPS linked speed limiters though, bear in mind a similar fatality could occur at 5km/h if a driver makes the wrong call – whether through impatience, arrogance or ignorance – to exit a T intersection when another car is driving along at the posted limit. It’s all about perception and risk analysis. And that’s why the simplistic Speed Kills mantra just washes over people.

el said :

Stupid, stupid idea trotted out dozens of times before by stupid people.

More stupid than doing 100+ in a 60 zone. I think not.

Nissan (in Japan) does it with the new GT-R. The car is limited to 180km/h. However, the tricky thing is the GPS knows if the car is on a racetrack and at such times will automatically disengage the speed limiter.

Errr….you ever used a GPS device?

I wouldn’t like to be trusting software like that when the GPS suddenly loses sync and decides I’m on the 60Km/H residential street running parallel to a 110Km/H highway rather than on the highway itself. Stupid, stupid idea trotted out dozens of times before by stupid people.

shame that my car is so old that electronics were being used with valves… like the car radio I have…

@ mrtwister, I believe technology similar to you suggest is being tested in NSW as we speak.

http://www.ausmotive.com/2008/06/24/nsw-government-to-trial-big-brother-speed-limiters.html

I’m sure this issue and others could be overcome by the software. These roads could be recognised as roads where the limit is increased for such occasions by the GPS. But surely the highways and city roads would be a lot safer from those that would normally ignore the fact that speed limits are a crucial safety necessity.

Sorry about the, comma!

Hehe!

I have to agree with, VY.

This sort of thing would be ok in a well maintained city road network, but get out onto back country roads and the deaths will pile up. There are times when overtaking that semi trailer that you need to give it a bit of a squirt. If this isn’t available, you have no choice but to stand on the anchors, potentially causing a crash with the guy following. It needs to be recognised that there are are occasions when being able to scoot past another vehicle quickly is a major advantage. The less time spent on the wrong side of the road, the better.

This sort of thing would be ok in a well maintained city road network, but get out onto back country roads and the deaths will pile up. There are times when overtaking that semi trailer that you need to give it a bit of a squirt. If this isn’t available, you have no choice but to stand on the anchors, potentially causing a crash with the guy following. It needs to be recognised that there are are occasions when being able to scoot past another vehicle quickly is a major advantage. The less time spent on the wrong side of the road, the better.

I’d happily argue for a “one passenger max” legal limit for anyone with P plates.

No.

Surely in this day and age we can use computer chip/GPS technology to limit the speeds that all cars can travel in all areas of the country. Compulsory chip installation. Massive fines and loss of license for chip modifications/removal. Seriously, as you enter a new speed zone, your car is limited to that speed. Please tell me technology can do this.

Bill Quinn said :

Having said that, Mme Workalot, there is a special place in hell reserved for people who drive 10-40 kms/h under the speed limit in single lanes and then speed up to 110km/hr when there’s an overtaking lane.

Big hello to the couple in the ute on King’s Highway yesterday about 3pm coming in to Bungendore. Love your work.

And to that I wholeheartedly agree! I always pull over if the person behind me can’t immediately pass me. Yeah, it makes for a long trip but I know how frustrated I get when someone does what you described to me 🙂

CoffinRX2 said :

Jim, over the past decades state govt have always been pushing the speeding kills, every k over is a killer campaign, news programs etc all try and push this rather than really addressing the roots of the problem

Just read post #93 and surrounds.

Keeping speeds down saves lives – it won’t save as many lives as an insane revolution in the way we do everything regarding driving – but at least it will actually happen.

You’ve pushed your barrow as far as it’s gonna go. If you have a better idea for a targeted ad campaign to save lives on Australian roads, I’d sincerely like to hear it.

el said :

Fair enough Holden Caulfield and Clown Killer – I was thinking along the lines of more common mass-produced models that ‘normal’ people buy – Yr Falcodore/Camry/Corolla/Getz/Magna…

Yeah, I know. I was being a smart arse. 😛

El, Subaru WRX do have an option to come with a fully homologated FIA spec cage under their motorsport edition.

Jim, over the past decades state govt have always been pushing the speeding kills, every k over is a killer campaign, news programs etc all try and push this rather than really addressing the roots of the problem

VB No i’m just confident in my abilities in the vehicles I own, from numerous track days, rallies, private testing days, drag racing etc. Where have i ever stated I drive at speeds above and beyond the speed limit on public roads? … never thats what the track is for me. If my life ends in a vehicle tradgedy, its because im in an event where I accept the risks.

I have in excess of 15 years driving experience, my car is an early 80 car, not just with the roll cage, but uprated suspension, brakes and everything else needed to ensure it handles better than the vast majority of cars out there

Suggest folks with CoffinRX2’s mindset go and have a look at some of the remnants of cars involved in serious accidents parked in the Belconnen Police Property lot. Kinda helps the message sink in.

Hey, you’re a blinding flash and a deafening report, Ace!

I mean Coffin.

However, at least the old grannies can read the road rules. Maybe you can find somebody to help you with that.

Driving to the conditions is a critical skill for controlling sa car, but to say that speed itsef is the killer is still a bit shortsighted.

With better risk perception and training, these kids may have thought doing high speed on a suburban street while drunk wasn’t a good idea to start with.

The coroner decides what kills and what dosn’t. Politicians and police under instructions from politicians will tell us whatever they need to support the policy position they have adopted.

And coffin fails with his risk assessment.

Fortunately moderation is survivable, and often a good learning experience.

“Speed Kills”

Hmmm … well, if speed kills, then, logically, absolutely nothing else can kill.

Did you fail primary school, or did you just not show up?

CoffinRX2,

You really should have a good hard think about what most respondents here are trying to say to you. It is very evident by what you have said in this and other threads that you are in the category of drivers most at risk of having/causing a serious accident.

1. You are way over confident of your own driving abilities.
2. Your driver ATTITUDE is the type that all to often ends in tragedy. You have no acceptance of the fact that the roads are SHARED by all of us and that not everyone wants to travel as fast as you do and sometimes people might get in your way. No amount of driver training is going to turn little old grannys (not you Granny) into speed freaks like you.
3. Assumption only and I can’t be sure but it sounds like you are fairly young, I would say under 25 and are therefore do not have the experience you think you have.
4. You have one of the seventies style high powered / low safety type cars and you overestimate the safety of the older type of car you own. A roll cage does not make you invincible.

I know you will dismiss this post as utter rubbish but if you are clever you will take notice of my comments and try to adjust you attitude accordingly.

“Speeding itself is not the single and only cause that people die on the roads like the media beat up like you to believe.”

How does the media do this? A single add campaign?

Seems a bit light on for a huge conspiracy beat up. Maybe they’re using alien ray guns or something too.

Keep calling me names, though. Makes you feel good doesn’t it.

Fair enough Holden Caulfield and Clown Killer – I was thinking along the lines of more common mass-produced models that ‘normal’ people buy – Yr Falcodore/Camry/Corolla/Getz/Magna…

Holden Caulfield said :

Porsche GT3. Renault Megane R26.R – altough not sure if they are full or half cages from factory. Think the R26.R may be a half cage, but am pretty sure you can spec an FIA approved cage in a GT3.

Correct.

Anyway the cage im getting has removable front legs and side intrusion bars so can be reverted back to a 4pt at any time

Johnboy I’ll make no apologies for calling a wanker a wanker.

BKW, so you’d classify to old grandmother who can barely control a car, .. or someone texting/talking on their mobile phone whilst driving persons with delusions of immortality? reckless yes, delusional no.

Jim Jones, wanker again. I’ve only ever said in this thread that Speeding itself is not the single and only cause that people die on the roads like the media beat up like you to believe. A better educated driver may not have ended up in the situation, regardless of the speed involved

We’ve got a couple of Landcruisers and Patrols that we use for work that have dealer fitted roll cages. They’re standard in the mining business and I’m guessing that there’s be maybe 5,000 similarly fitted vehicles on the road.

Porsche GT3. Renault Megane R26.R – altough not sure if they are full or half cages from factory. Think the R26.R may be a half cage, but am pretty sure you can spec an FIA approved cage in a GT3.

I’ll find a link tonite regarding an offence for driving below the limit.

Doubtful. You certainly won’t find one relating to 20Km/H below the limit.

Having said that, Mme Workalot, there is a special place in hell reserved for people who drive 10-40 kms/h under the speed limit in single lanes and then speed up to 110km/hr when there’s an overtaking lane.

*This* particular behaviour is just as dangerous. I have no idea what people are thinking sometimes.

#113 – +1.

Well said that man. Comparing road cars to engineered race cars is ridiculous. I can’t recall seeing any mass-produced cars with a 6pt roll cage as an option from the dealership.

Having said that, Mme Workalot, there is a special place in hell reserved for people who drive 10-40 kms/h under the speed limit in single lanes and then speed up to 110km/hr when there’s an overtaking lane.

Big hello to the couple in the ute on King’s Highway yesterday about 3pm coming in to Bungendore. Love your work.

Jim Jones said :

I’d really like it if everyone in Australia could go through advanced driver training. But it just ain’t gonna happen.

I went to an advanced driving course after driving solo for 6 months, and one of the attendees was an absolute twat. He turned up with tyres so underinflated one was pulled off the rim on the skid pan ( the instructions we were issued with beforehand stated we had to check tyres for proper pressure amongst other things ) and at the “brake and turn in a given direction” activity deliberately continued on to drive up the bank leaving deep gouges after being told not to, as the group running the course could lose their access if their clients damaged the facilities.

Yeah good one.

Everyone here laments the death of two teenagers and says: “If only they hadn’t been speeding.” The linked article states: “Police believe the car crash may have been caused by speeding.”And you deny that speeding was the issue: “What they really needed was better driver education, better condition and roadworth cars”.

And somehow *we’re* the ones out of touch with reality?

CoffinRX2, cop the tip: accidents due to mechanical failure/unroadworthiness account for about 0.02% of all accidents. That leaves 99.98% of accidents that were caused by reckless fools with delusions of immortality such as yourself.

I love rotaries but the stigma attached to them as a result of (usually lebanese) hoons forced me to find another hobby. Sure, golf doesn’t give me the same buzz, but at least my friends don’t think I’m a complete tosspot anymore.

CoffinRX2 said :

I’ll find a link tonite regarding an offence for driving below the limit.

Jim Jones, you’re a dead set wanker I’m sorry. None of this Ego crap, I’ve just been trying to get across the point of speeding isnt what kills people, and better driver education, better condition and roadworth cars is the real solution, not some half assed speed kills media campaign. I’ve never said once that I’m a “shit hot” driver, I’ve stated that I use my cars in motorsport, off the streets, and that this kind of exposure gives you a better understanding of how to control a car.

Have fun in you’re “reality”

Please do – when you find it, I’ll have to find that nasty little policeman who tried to book me for driving under the limit. Funnily enough, he let me go when I mentioned there was nothing within the legislation that made it illegal. So please, if you find it let me know 🙂

Good luck with that, Coffin. I doubt you’ll be finding any such thing.

Consider yourself warned on abusive language Coffin.

Let’s all take the personalities out of the discussion.

If for no other reason than some respect for the dead.

I wonder if the deceased were wearing seatbelts?

I’ll find a link tonite regarding an offence for driving below the limit.

Jim Jones, you’re a dead set wanker I’m sorry. None of this Ego crap, I’ve just been trying to get across the point of speeding isnt what kills people, and better driver education, better condition and roadworth cars is the real solution, not some half assed speed kills media campaign. I’ve never said once that I’m a “shit hot” driver, I’ve stated that I use my cars in motorsport, off the streets, and that this kind of exposure gives you a better understanding of how to control a car.

Have fun in you’re “reality”

Madame Workalot said :

CoffinRX2 said :

Madame, it’s still an offence to obstruct traffic and travel below the speed limit. … and yes I’ve managed to avoid collisions ith Kangaroo’s at 100+ dirt and tarmac, just have to be aware of your surroundings.

You’re half right – it is an offence to obstruct traffic. However you didn’t address my point about driving to the conditions, which is what makes it acceptable to travel below the limit.

If you’ve managed to avoid collisions with kangaroos on a normal (ie not completely clear, with trees and bushes etc. obstructing your vision) stretch of road, you really must be the super driver you think you are.

or, thus far, very, very lucky.

every time i now see a hoon go past me on the highway or on a country road, I wonder whether i will have to try and pull them out of the wreckage later on. As a First aid person, I am obligated to assist – if i feel that there is no risk to me.

many of my friends now are starting to weigh up whether they will stop to help, as they are getting jaded with the numbers of fools that think they are immortal. Perhaps a deterrent for young drivers is to take them into the ED, and get them to see drivers that have come off second best in an accident. It might get them to see the consequences, or not…

People tout on about speed kills etc etc. The point being, whether you’re disagreeing with, totally missing or just delusional to realise is that that notwithstanding the skills of these drivers, the safety regulations mandated by the FIA, that at these high speeds, no one died! … speed itself is not a killer!

Your ad hominem attacks notwithstanding, the point is that 24 highly-skilled drivers have died in the Formula 1; it is a dangerous pursuit; the reason it is dangerous is primarily the speed involved. Ergo, speed is dangerous, and the “speed kills” message is appropriate.

It is stupid and disingenuous in the extreme to imply that the “speed kills” is equivalent to “anyone who exceeds the speed limit will immediately die”. The message which it is trying to drive home is that the faster you drive, the more risk you are taking on. Apparently that is too subtle for some!

CoffinRX2 said :

Madame, it’s still an offence to obstruct traffic and travel below the speed limit. … and yes I’ve managed to avoid collisions ith Kangaroo’s at 100+ dirt and tarmac, just have to be aware of your surroundings.

You’re half right – it is an offence to obstruct traffic. However you didn’t address my point about driving to the conditions, which is what makes it acceptable to travel below the limit.

If you’ve managed to avoid collisions with kangaroos on a normal (ie not completely clear, with trees and bushes etc. obstructing your vision) stretch of road, you really must be the super driver you think you are.

Well said, Jim.

All of this ego-driven crap about how you can drive at a million-zillion miles and hour and still be safe because you’re such a sh1t hot driver really isn’t impressing anyone.

Two people are dead because they were speeding and you’re using it as part of your self-absorbed agenda.

You can live in your narcissistic fantasy-world where speeding doesn’t result in death and mayhem, but the rest of live in reality.

CoffinRX2 said :

Madame, it’s still an offence to obstruct traffic and travel below the speed limit.

Source?

It’s the person that can’t see a problem with exceeding 60 in a residential area that shouldn’t be on the road, not someone who drives 20 below the speed limit when they’re feeling uncertain.

I’d rather share a road with them anyday.

The problem isn’t with skill, it’s with risk perception.

We really should be doing psychological screening.

Madame, it’s still an offence to obstruct traffic and travel below the speed limit. … and yes I’ve managed to avoid collisions ith Kangaroo’s at 100+ dirt and tarmac, just have to be aware of your surroundings.

Caf, you are clearly clueless. People tout on about speed kills etc etc. The point being, whether you’re disagreeing with, totally missing or just delusional to realise is that that notwithstanding the skills of these drivers, the safety regulations mandated by the FIA, that at these high speeds, no one died! … speed itself is not a killer!

Clift Cres is poorly lit at the Asley Drive end, and is quite narrow. It is a well-used rat run between two arterials (Ashley Drive and Johnson Drive), so it’s no surprise that there are lots of accidents on Clift – the Clift/Ashley intersection I think is a ‘black spot’, anyway it certainly has a hair-raising turning lane that I try to avoid. And it is near the former, notorious ‘triangleabout’ at Ashley/Johnson (another one to avoid).

Perhaps some traffic calming measures?

My condolences to affected families and friends of the deceased young people, and I sincerely hope the injured recover soon.

The ‘point’ of the FI example is that it’s really f$%cking stupid to compare apples and oranges and then think you can make some salient ‘point’ from the comparison.

CoffinRX2 said :

If you are not capable of driving to the legal limit then you shouldnt be on the road, .. it’s actually illegal to be driving at 20kph under the limit.

Where does it say that??

What if it’s pissing down? What if the road is covered in potholes?

The problem with your “point” is that the F1 example proves the exact opposite. 20 cars driving a total of 1160 laps of a circuit without incident proves nothing – the sport is still dangerous, people still die, the prime reason for that is the extreme speeds involved.

This morning, thousands of poor drivers drove to work in Canberra, many in proximity to other poor drivers, some distracted, some tired, some angry, maybe even a few further impaired by alcohol.

None of them died. Does that mean that none of those factors are relevant to road safety? Of course not. Road accidents are still relatively rare events, given the number of cars on the road and the distances we drive, so any analysis of risk factors has to be done over a large sample size.

You really need to understand the distinction between “missing your point” and disagreeing with it.

CoffinRX2 said :

Granny said :

CoffinRX2, where did you get that idea? ‘Granny’?

*lol*

But why should you despise people who are driving at 20kph below the speed limit? If that is what their capability is and they know it, I would much rather they drove according to their limits.

If you are not capable of driving to the legal limit then you shouldnt be on the road, .. it’s actually illegal to be driving at 20kph under the limit.

That’s not actually true. You must be driving to the conditions, which may or may not be the posted limit. Many rural roads have deteriorated to conditions that make it dangerous to drive at the posted speed.

Case-in-point – I live on a gravel road that has a posted limit of 100kph. I have never ever been able to travel safely at that speed on that road – for the most part, any faster than 60kph is dangerous. I am by no means the slowest driver on that road (on which approximately another 150 drivers travel every day). I also drive a vehicle that is built for that sort of driving. If you want to come out and try it at 100kph in your fully sick RX7, go ahead.

Also, at night I usually sit between 20-30kph below the limit on highways that are frequented by kangaroos. I am also polite, and will pull over if a car comes up behind me and cannot pass. Does that mean that I am an incompetent driver that shouldn’t hold a licence? YOU try and avoid a kangaroo at 100kph.

…crash, that should be.

Reply

I don’t see why we don’t just make the requirements for gaining the license tougher in the first place. Pass the cost to the student driver.

It works for pilots of aircraft and large watercraft, as well as truck and bus drivers.

caf said :

All the bleeding hearts on here talk about “speed kills” …. the F1 arguement is just blatant proof that it does. I’m not talking about when things go bad on the very ragged edge of F1 racing, just the plain fact that speed doesnt kill.

Yes, the F1 argument is blatant proof that speed does kill. I don’t know why you brought it up, since you’re trying to argue against that.

Go look for that point again which is even further in the distance.

yesterday 20 cars were travelling at an average trap speed down the main straight of 305kph, not withstanding safety cars and retirements, they did this 58 times each. … if speed kills why are these guys still alive? … thats my point with relation to F1, the “speed kills” idea is a total fallacy

Granny said :

CoffinRX2, where did you get that idea? ‘Granny’?

*lol*

But why should you despise people who are driving at 20kph below the speed limit? If that is what their capability is and they know it, I would much rather they drove according to their limits.

If you are not capable of driving to the legal limit then you shouldnt be on the road, .. it’s actually illegal to be driving at 20kph under the limit.

Mandatory on going testing is something that should happen nationally, along with a lot more comprehensive driver training, it’s not a cheap option, but we’ll create a better culture of drivers for the future.

Peterh, I understand what you are saying about the roadworthyness compared to our competitive vehicles. My work car is a VE wagon, but my weekend RX7 is being rebuilt at the moment, and will have a 6pt cage, side intrusion bars and 4pt harness, along with upgraded brakes etc. …. It’s going to be safer than when it was originally released, .. I’m not doing it because I drive like a dickhead it in, but I do it because I know its going to handle better, and be safer in the event of an incident, caused by myself or someone else

I actually am against measures such as lowering speed limits. We currently have a situation where speed limits are made for the lowest common denominator, rather than the authorities focussing on driver skill AND driver attitude. Attitude is the biggie here.

If those testosterone-infected young men (and increasingly, women) were driving 3 cylinder 500 cc Suzuki Mighty Boys, their attitude problems would be merely annoying, rather than deadly. If the police were out and about in very visible police cars, either the idiot drivers would modify their behaviour, or be caught and kicked off the roads.

What about a re-test when a young driver is about to graduate from red Ps to green Ps? That would help to pick up attitude issues, or at least have the kids thinking gmore about how they behave on the roads. Or maybe a re-test when they are about to come off their Ps altogether.

CoffinRX2 said :

Granny, so you’re one of those canberra drivers that sits 20kph below the limit on rural roads and adheres to the yellow signs relating to corner speeds? … most of that stuff related to the lowest common denominator and their lack of abilities.

What’s wrong with that? I will generally sit under the limit on rural roads I don’t know, and I always adhere to the yellow signs relating to corner speeds. In fact, if the weather is bad I usually go slower. And it’s not just to get up the nose of arrogant people who may think they’re better drivers than me.

All the bleeding hearts on here talk about “speed kills” …. the F1 arguement is just blatant proof that it does. I’m not talking about when things go bad on the very ragged edge of F1 racing, just the plain fact that speed doesnt kill.

Yes, the F1 argument is blatant proof that speed does kill. I don’t know why you brought it up, since you’re trying to argue against that.

CoffinRX2 said :

Jim Jones said :

“Very Busy, no one can say that, but I’ve seen fatalaties from vehicles at 30kph, 40kph, 60kph etc you get the picture?”

Funny how the fatalities seem to cluster on the higher end of the speed spectrum, isn’t it? Almost as if speed was an overridingly significant factor, maybe even a determining factor.

From involvement in motorsport I’ve seen people walk away from incidents varying from 60-180kph .. so whats your point? they didnt die due to “speed”

Educate people how to drive properly, and have safe roadworthy vehicles.

A dickhead with no talent will still be a dickhead in a 70hp piece of crap and a 270hp car, and can still have the same consequences

bit of a stretch to say that a roadworthy vehicle matches the same levels of safety that is applied to a motorsport vehicle.

we have lap sashes. we have large amounts of items that aren’t nailed down. a proper requirement for all vehicles would be a racing harness, but then, this would create an air of invincibility for young drivers. My kids are strapped in with a 5-point harness. why aren’t we?

I have seen people walk away from accidents on the roads, from speeds between 60-110kph. Not a scratch. Unfortunately, the people that they have hit by overtaking on a crest, blind corner or other obviously stupid spot haven’t.

Jim Jones said :

…then in the longer term looking to slowly reform the system so that drivers receive better training (throughout their driving life – not just when they’re 16 or 17).

Absolutely! The fact most of us get our licence when we’re under 20 and never have to undergo any sort of retesting, be it theoretical or practical, until we’re 80-odd is bordering on criminal.

Tempestas said :

And Holden C, to add to your argument, I reckon I’m an average driver, but I know when I am getting ahead of myself. I do think there are a lot of less than average drivers out there though.

In theory, being an average driver is no bad thing! If road users are able to be more attentive to what is going on around them, and more considerate of other road users then we’d all be a lot better off.

Complacency is also an issue, and one I am guilty of myself. Every now and then we all need a reality check to help us reappraise the way we use the road. It just sux0rs that it takes a tragedy like this to remind us (or many of us, at least).

Holden Caulfield said :

Jim Jones said :

Yeah, I totally agree Holden. But I think that trying to keep speeds down is a good thing.

I’d really like it if everyone in Australia could go through advanced driver training. But it just ain’t gonna happen.

I don’t think that the ‘speed kills’ message causes any problems at all – it’s being criticised because it doesn’t completely fix the problem; it can’t. That would be completely unrealistic.

At least keeping speeds down ameliorates the problem.

Yep, I can see where you are coming from.

Cheers bud. I think we’re all in furious agreement in one way or another.

For me, the question really has to be addressed pragmatically. There ain’t a snowball’s chance in hell of a radical restructure of the way that licensing and driving works in Australia, so the best we can hope for is slowing people down (in the short term) and then in the longer term looking to slowly reform the system so that drivers receive better training (throughout their driving life – not just when they’re 16 or 17).

Jim Jones said :

Yeah, I totally agree Holden. But I think that trying to keep speeds down is a good thing.

I’d really like it if everyone in Australia could go through advanced driver training. But it just ain’t gonna happen.

I don’t think that the ‘speed kills’ message causes any problems at all – it’s being criticised because it doesn’t completely fix the problem; it can’t. That would be completely unrealistic.

At least keeping speeds down ameliorates the problem.

Yep, I can see where you are coming from.

And Holden C, to add to your argument, I reckon I’m an average driver, but I know when I am getting ahead of myself. I do think there are a lot of less than average drivers out there though.

CoffinRX2, where did you get that idea? ‘Granny’?

*lol*

But why should you despise people who are driving at 20kph below the speed limit? If that is what their capability is and they know it, I would much rather they drove according to their limits.

Some of the slowest people I have sat behind have been young. Stoned maybe? I don’t know why else they would be doing 40 in an 80 zone down Mirrabei, but if that’s where they’re at I’d much rather see them travel at 40 than 80.

Yes, it’s a bit frustrating but not hard to get around them.

There is no need for excessive speed in most cases, and seldom any excuse for it.

I have been in a position where an older child left the front door open and I came in to see my toddler standing in the middle of the road on a blind corner where cars used to scream around despite it being the beginning of a 40k school zone.

I just ran blindly out onto the road because I thought at least a car could see me – they wouldn’t even have seen her above the bumper bar. And if anything happened to her I wouldn’t have wanted to live. A car did come around the corner. I will be forever grateful that this driver was traveling slowly enough to be able to stop in time to spare our lives. Most drivers in the area would have hit us and possibly killed us both.

Lower speeds on the roads would mean less accidents and less fatal accidents

Some good discussion here, but the quote above I completely disagree with. There are many situations where lower speed limits likely make the problem worse, such as in NT, and the effects of fatigue.

That said, there isn’t much doubt that the faster you are going when you lose control or hit something, the worse the outcome is likely to be.

Yeah, I totally agree Holden. But I think that trying to keep speeds down is a good thing.

I’d really like it if everyone in Australia could go through advanced driver training. But it just ain’t gonna happen.

I don’t think that the ‘speed kills’ message causes any problems at all – it’s being criticised because it doesn’t completely fix the problem; it can’t. That would be completely unrealistic.

At least keeping speeds down ameliorates the problem.

Jim Jones said :

What do think is more realistic: asking people to slow down, or ensuring that every driver in the country has completed advanced driving courses.

Driving on public roads is not a birth right.

The question shouldn’t be which is more realistic, but which is the most appropriate approach to creating a safer driving community.

Coffin RX2 you have a point. IIRC when the WRX hit the scenes there was an increase in fatal accidents for an age bracket – type of car, not because they were faster than similar cars, but because their active safety feature (AWD, low centre of gravity etc) meant that once you drove it beyond its limits, effectively you’d be airborne and cars make lousy aircraft. It wasn’t just the speed, it was the inexperience that pushed the car beyond its limits. Having got it there, there was little liklihood of getting it back.

What I think needs to be stated is that for many inexperienced drivers and this *IS* a deficency in our driver learning system, driving at speed is the most significant way they they go beyond their own limits. It is still possible to kill yourself in a 600cc Smart car or similar low powered machine, but the odds of getting beyond its limits are lower.

Lets not forget that every CAMS event ticket points out that motor racing is dangerous. It’s also worth remembering that serious levels of engineering goes into race cars. This doesn’t happen for the majority of road cars.

So it may well be the case that “speed” is not the “enemy” but its a very strong indicator of when some less capable drivers are going to get into trouble.

And Jim, making advanced driver training mandatory may well cost less in the long run

Jim Jones said :

“One of the side effects of the speed kills mantra is that it creates a belief among some road users that all they need to do to be a safe driver is keep their needle under an arbitrary number on a road sign. That’s not good for anyone.”

The ‘speed kills’ message is deliberately simple, and is aimed at getting people to slow down: simple. Lower speeds on the roads would mean less accidents and less fatal accidents: of course it wouldn’t prevent all accidents.

It’s part of advertising – you keep your message simple and to the point. Saying ‘slow down … and you should also think about a, b, c … etc’ would make for a very ineffective message.

No-one is saying that you shouldn’t also be a responsible, attentive driver. The idea that the ‘speed kills’ mantra is ruining the minds of Australian drivers for the other things you need to do on the road just seems … silly. You can walk and chew gum at the same time, doing one doesn’t prevent you from doing the other.

Really, does anybody seriously think that it would be a good idea to stop sending the “slow down” message just because speed isn’t the only factor in accidents?

What, then, would be the replacement? ‘Be a better driver’ perhaps? Seems a little indistinct to me.

I understand and agree with most of what you’re saying. But if you reckon there are no people on the roads who think they are safe drivers simply because they don’t speed, then you drive on different roads and speak to different people to me.

This is a daft comparison, but I’ve often found the “I’m a safe driver, I don’t speed” line is akin to “I’m not a racist, but…” stance. In that, the claim to being a safe driver is based on a very simple notion. Having been in a car with a few people who take this stance I have experienced for myself how scary this belief can be.

A person driving at or under the speed limit still needs to concentrate on what they’re doing. They still need to anticipate what could happen next and they still need to keep their eye on the road. I dare say there’d be as many people guilty of not doing these simple things as there are that speed every day.

While I understand your point about creating a simple “speed kills” message, I just don’t agree that is the right approach. Driving is about paying attention, if a safety message can’t be understood because it is not a snappy headline, then, well, we’re always going to have problems aren’t we.

What do think is more realistic: asking people to slow down, or ensuring that every driver in the country has completed advanced driving courses.

“One of the side effects of the speed kills mantra is that it creates a belief among some road users that all they need to do to be a safe driver is keep their needle under an arbitrary number on a road sign. That’s not good for anyone.”

The ‘speed kills’ message is deliberately simple, and is aimed at getting people to slow down: simple. Lower speeds on the roads would mean less accidents and less fatal accidents: of course it wouldn’t prevent all accidents.

It’s part of advertising – you keep your message simple and to the point. Saying ‘slow down … and you should also think about a, b, c … etc’ would make for a very ineffective message.

No-one is saying that you shouldn’t also be a responsible, attentive driver. The idea that the ‘speed kills’ mantra is ruining the minds of Australian drivers for the other things you need to do on the road just seems … silly. You can walk and chew gum at the same time, doing one doesn’t prevent you from doing the other.

Really, does anybody seriously think that it would be a good idea to stop sending the “slow down” message just because speed isn’t the only factor in accidents?

What, then, would be the replacement? ‘Be a better driver’ perhaps? Seems a little indistinct to me.

Very Busy, you’d have to be rather incompetant to actually lose control at 30kph (once again comes back to teaching people how to drive properly), and yes fatalaties have occured at that speed

Granny, so you’re one of those canberra drivers that sits 20kph below the limit on rural roads and adheres to the yellow signs relating to corner speeds? … most of that stuff related to the lowest common denominator and their lack of abilities.

With relation to driveways and speed? its not just about the distance to stop, its once again about car control and the ability to avoid the situation. what the bet 90% of people would just slam on the brakes and plough into whatever (god forbid a child) .. rather than brake and manouver your car to avoid the hazard

In

Granny said :

…If there are driveways, it is never appropriate to be doing in excess of 100 kmh. All it takes is some little kid to wander out a front door that’s been left unlocked. Nobody could stop in time at that speed – not even you.

In a situation like that is quite likely that nobody could stop if they were doing 60km/h, or even 50km/h, either. Although, of course, stopping distances would be reduced considerably.

The point being, nobody is saying that speed is not a factor in motor accidents (generally speaking), just that it is often an easy label to pin on something that then denies closer inspection of the real causes.

One of the side effects of the speed kills mantra is that it creates a belief among some road users that all they need to do to be a safe driver is keep their needle under an arbitrary number on a road sign. That’s not good for anyone.

Jim Jones said :

“Very Busy, no one can say that, but I’ve seen fatalaties from vehicles at 30kph, 40kph, 60kph etc you get the picture?”

Funny how the fatalities seem to cluster on the higher end of the speed spectrum, isn’t it? Almost as if speed was an overridingly significant factor, maybe even a determining factor.

From involvement in motorsport I’ve seen people walk away from incidents varying from 60-180kph .. so whats your point? they didnt die due to “speed”

Educate people how to drive properly, and have safe roadworthy vehicles.

A dickhead with no talent will still be a dickhead in a 70hp piece of crap and a 270hp car, and can still have the same consequences

I’m at work and cbf’d searching for data, but places in EU which have a very rigourous driver training set up, and autobarns etc im sure have a lower incident rate than we have here

You know what, CoffinRX2? If it was your kid you were burying you’d be saying, “Thanks for driving at that completely inappropriate speed for the conditions and the state of inebriation you pathetic little moron!!”

And 60 kmh would still have been too fast after a night of drinking at a wedding. Mostly the speed limits are set to reflect the reaction times and responsibilities and capabilities of the majority of drivers.

They will usually be a pretty good indication of how fast somebody should be going in those conditions.

If there are driveways, it is never appropriate to be doing in excess of 100 kmh. All it takes is some little kid to wander out a front door that’s been left unlocked. Nobody could stop in time at that speed – not even you.

CoffinRX2

CoffinRX2 said :

Very Busy, no one can say that, but I’ve seen fatalaties from vehicles at 30kph, 40kph, 60kph etc you get the picture?

Have you seen a car doing 30kmh suddenly go out of control and spin sideways into a tree killing two back seat occupants?

yes, they would cluster around the top end of speed limits, but a lowering of speed limits wouldn’t change everything, people drive at the speed they want on the road because they can how many of you travel at 110km/h on the parkway, brake for the fixed speed cameras and accelerate back up to speed?

you have to change attitudes to the stupid speeds of 40+ km over in suburban streets where you cant even see around the corner.

I agree wholeheartedly too!!!!!

“Very Busy, no one can say that, but I’ve seen fatalaties from vehicles at 30kph, 40kph, 60kph etc you get the picture?”

Funny how the fatalities seem to cluster on the higher end of the speed spectrum, isn’t it? Almost as if speed was an overridingly significant factor, maybe even a determining factor.

VY,

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

I still maintain that the problem is that we’ve been fed BS about speed being the root of all evil, and this has blinded many people to the real causes of accidents.

I argee wholehearedly. Our local Governments fixation on speed being the problem and sitting on its hands in relation to other aspects of road safety is doing nothing to save the lives of our road users. Installing speed cameras in locations that do not have a history of accidents and sending a posted infringement to someone for doing 85 in an 80 zone just demonstrates total ignorance about the road safety issue.

The whole problem comes down to driver attitude. Even inexperienced drivers with the right attitude do not end up causing the devastation which occured on the weekend. Don’t get me wrong though, there is no easy fix to this. Bad attitudes on our roads have been around forever but have probably got worse since the replacement of real life coppers by speed cameras.

The fact is though that the wrong attitude by inexperienced drivers can lead to excessive speeding which results in deaths on or roads. That is why I asked CoffinRX2 the question at #74.

Time may reveal that there are a number of factors causing this crash. Inattention, inexperience and alcohol MAY be included but if this car was travelling at 100kmh I think you could be pretty sure that excessive speed will also be included.

Caf, see that thing over there in the distance? its the point that you’ve totally missed regarding my post.

All the bleeding hearts on here talk about “speed kills” …. the F1 arguement is just blatant proof that it does. I’m not talking about when things go bad on the very ragged edge of F1 racing, just the plain fact that speed doesnt kill.

Very Busy, no one can say that, but I’ve seen fatalaties from vehicles at 30kph, 40kph, 60kph etc you get the picture?

Would the 2 people that were killed in Richardson on the weekend have died if that car had been driving at 60kmh rather than in excess of 100kmh?

Who knows? They may still have crashed. Whether the outcome was the same would be unlikely, though (perhaps just injuries rather than death).

So terribly, terribly sad, notwithstanding the rights, wrongs, maybes and wherefores of how, when and who of how it happened.

The Canberra Times article is so sad for so many reasons, but I found the opening para particularly poignant: “A car crash in the early hours of yesterday claimed the lives of two teenagers travelling from a wedding.”

As one who spends a lot of time at weddings professionally, I can tell you they’re such celebrations of (typically) young, vibrant people having a superb time, and maybe being swept up in the moment and thinking about their own future lives and nuptials. (I recently MC’d a wedding for two young people from the Balkans so I can well picture the scenes BEFORE the tragedy.)

Just underscores the terrible nature of this even more. A warning for teenagers, tweenagers, L-platers, P-platers, parents and — well, drivers and pedestrians, really.

It’s not really the speed itself that causes accidents in racing situations, but rather that the drivers are deliberately attempting to wring every bit of available grip out of the vehicle. I would argue that this is a very different situation to ‘mick and his mates in dad’s V8’ on a Friday night.

I think we need to be careful to stay within factual reality in this type of argument, rather than pushing the emotive side. Everyone has a different risk tolerance when it comes to driving, and this needs to be recognised. I still maintain that the problem is that we’ve been fed BS about speed being the root of all evil, and this has blinded many people to the real causes of accidents.

CoffinRX2,

Would the 2 people that were killed in Richardson on the weekend have died if that car had been driving at 60kmh rather than in excess of 100kmh?

Caf: re the F1, who was the last to die in F1? The Late Ayrton Senna & Roland Ratzenberger on the same weekend back in the early 90’s. These guys travel at speeds well excess of the speed limits. I was making that statement for all the people having a tear on here say “speed kills” … it clearly doesnt

Right… they travel at speeds well in excess of the speed limits, and it is primarily this that means that F1 is still a dangerous sport, despite the drivers undoubted skill and their extraordinarily well engineered machines. (And yes, it is still a dangerous sport regardless of the fact that the last fatalities were some time ago – look at it on a fatalities per kilometre travelled basis, for example).

Punter said :

Coffin, I do disagree with your comment about the speed kills message being false. Remember the joke “It’s the sudden stop that kills you”? People aren’t built to come to a sudden stop from the speed vehicles enable us to travel at. Vandam is correct in saying speed on its own is mostly not a cause of crashes but has a direct influence on the severity of injuries sustained.

It’s true though, speed alone is not the direct thing that kills anyone on our roads, and thats what im sick to death of all these govt types and ill informed people saying lowering speed limits is the answer.

peterh said :

Perhaps the motorcycle riders can tell me, is there a limit to the size of the horsepower that you can ride as a learner and p-plater on a bike?.

There used to be in QLD, not sure about ACT

I believe there is no one solution to preventing inexperienced drivers involvement in collisions. I agree education can help but it’s value won’t be realised by everyone and on its own is not an answer. However if it helps a handful of drivers then it is a worthwhile pursuit. Perhaps other measures like limiting extra passenger numbers and access to ‘performance’ vehicles to more experienced drivers would also help. Again it wouldn’t be the answer but could it hurt to try? We have limits to the performance capacity of motorcycle riders.

Coffin, I do disagree with your comment about the speed kills message being false. Remember the joke “It’s the sudden stop that kills you”? People aren’t built to come to a sudden stop from the speed vehicles enable us to travel at. Vandam is correct in saying speed on its own is mostly not a cause of crashes but has a direct influence on the severity of injuries sustained.

The largest aggravating factor to this issue is attitude toward driving. I would guess the biggest message missed is the resposibility drivers have to other members of the community (passengers, other road users, pedestrians etc) and the consequences of failing to meet these responsibilities. Unfortunately I can’t see an effective way of testing young drivers attitudes.

I admire Woody Manns passion.

vandam said :

CoffinRX2 said :

plausibly_deniable said :

Drove past today: there are young people in shiny overpowered cars paying their respects.

I think its more the drivers are inexperienced, not “shiny overpowered cars” .. speed doesnt kill, its the sudden deceleration that does, … you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

Are you serious????? ‘Speed doesn’t kill???????’ SPEED DOES KILL but its generally not the cause of the crash. The cause of the crash is essentially inattention and inexperience.

However the speed at impact, significantly increases the chance of injuries and death. This is why speed limits are reduced.

But when are these people going to learn?

I have no sympathy for the driver, throw him in jail for life, he killed 2 innocent people.

Speed doesnt kill, .. you even said yourself, accident are cause due to inexperience or inattention, so why does the narrow minded population keep dribbling that crap!!

Cletus 2 said :

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

This is disingenuous, and you know it. People who buy a ‘yaris or similar’ and keep it stock don’t drive around in packs with their dickhead mates egging each other on.

Woody, no, it’s absolutely correct. Your problem is that you are mistaking correlation for causation. So you observe or assume these hoons who break the law and kill people tend to drive particular types of cars. OK, did you think these people were turned into hoons when they bought the car? Or maybe they bought the car because they are hoons…

People blaming cars just have no idea. A small, underpowered, ~1000kg car with all modern safety features including things like pedestrian airbags can still cause fatal injuries to anyone on the road. Even if it is only going 40km/h.

Think about this before further uninformed, kneejerk reactions calling for banning things: some of the worst drivers I see are people in little shit boxes they don’t care about and try to push them as fast as they can through 40/50/60 zones.

The problem is the people. So the solution (actually there will never be a solution, but at least a way to improve the problem) is people. Namely, awareness and training.

I’m glad someone on here has some sense.

Caf: re the F1, who was the last to die in F1? The Late Ayrton Senna & Roland Ratzenberger on the same weekend back in the early 90’s. These guys travel at speeds well excess of the speed limits. I was making that statement for all the people having a tear on here say “speed kills” … it clearly doesnt

Power to weight ratios is still pointless, teach them how to drive correctly in the first place

Peterh,
Motorcyclists are restricted to no more than 150 kW/tonne power to weight ratio while they are on their L’s and first year of P’s.
I have no idea why they don’t bring in something similar for cars.
Having this restriction helped me to learn how to ride and control a motorcycle safely within my skill and experience level at the time.

I used to rally in an old mazda rx2. I enjoyed the speed and ability to control the car in dirt, mud, and gravel. Max speed i ever got up to? 100kph. was I trying to speed? not on your life. I was concentrating on what my nav was saying. I was concentrating on the road, the obstacles, the trees, anything that might turn us into a pile of mush. There is no comparison to rally driving, and “testing the limits of a modded road car”. Rally driving is a controlled environment. There are dangers, but you drive to the conditions. hooning on a road in an HSV commodore, 3x the limit isn’t a controlled environment.

Not to mention that as one mate tells me, a lowered car has all the technical smarts removed – the cars are designed at a height by the engineers who have tested it at that level, not lowered.

A drag track won’t help these kids learn control of a massive vehicle, the only way to stop them wrapping it around a pole or tree is to limit the horsepower a P plater can drive.

In my driving history, I have had 3 accidents. I have rolled a Leyland P76, on purpose, on a property, after being bet that I couldn’t. I have been rearended by a moron at a red light. I have been sideswiped. I did drive fast when younger, but never over the limit much. (usually 5-10km, and always on open highways)

Perhaps the motorcycle riders can tell me, is there a limit to the size of the horsepower that you can ride as a learner and p-plater on a bike? Perhaps this is something that should be adopted on both bikes and cars, for future young drivers.

Why don’t we have limits on power to weight ratios for young drivers like we do for motorbike riders?

Because too many people bitch and moan about ‘how unfair’ it is.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

We’ve tried adjusting attitudes of young blokes in cars, and the problem is that it just doesn’t work. Young blokes tend to be risk takers (I was no different at that age). We need to be smarter about this, and bleating about speed limits doesn’t seem to me to help. When your car can do 140km/h in second gear, and get there in seconds, the temptation is just too great.

Yep, that’s essentially it. Testosterone + big noisy powerful car + audience = well, we all know what that equals.

Why don’t we have limits on power to weight ratios for young drivers like we do for motorbike riders?

Canberra Times article.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/two-teenagers-killed-as-wedding-celebration-turns-to-tragedy/1472750.aspx

How many people died today at the Formula 1 in Melbourne? or at a track day at wakefield park? .. thats right no one, and they were all doing speeds well in excess of the legislated limits of this country.

You know, this is actually an argument against your position. The drivers in Formula 1 are unquestionably among the most skilled drivers in the world – and yet there are still deaths in Formula 1. This is because despite their skills, and despite the equally capabilities of their cars, the speeds they drive make it an inherently dangerous pursuit. Even highly skilled and well trained people make mistakes – it’s part of being human.

The reason you get an adrenaline rush from rallying is because it’s dangerous. That doesn’t mean you will die doing it, but you are taking a risk.

The trouble is that there is a big difference between an experienced enthusiast driving under controlled race style conditions (ie track or closed road) and a teenage kid jerking around with his idiot mates.

FWIW, I think we should significantly restrict the power and performance of vehicles driven by youngsters. I have a 300+hp V8 now, but if I’d owned this car as a teen, I reckon I would have gotten into real trouble with it.

We’ve tried adjusting attitudes of young blokes in cars, and the problem is that it just doesn’t work. Young blokes tend to be risk takers (I was no different at that age). We need to be smarter about this, and bleating about speed limits doesn’t seem to me to help. When your car can do 140km/h in second gear, and get there in seconds, the temptation is just too great.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

These tools speed because it’s illegal – that’s the thrill. The thrill isn’t doing 110 – if it was, they’d jump on the highway, tear up to Goulburn then turn around. The thrill is doing 110 in a 60 zone, or 130 in an 80 zone.

+1

And of course, the greater the audience, whether inside or outside the car, the greater the thrill and inducement to go faster.

CoffinRX2 said :

plausibly_deniable said :

Drove past today: there are young people in shiny overpowered cars paying their respects.

I think its more the drivers are inexperienced, not “shiny overpowered cars” .. speed doesnt kill, its the sudden deceleration that does, … you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

Are you serious????? ‘Speed doesn’t kill???????’ SPEED DOES KILL but its generally not the cause of the crash. The cause of the crash is essentially inattention and inexperience.

However the speed at impact, significantly increases the chance of injuries and death. This is why speed limits are reduced.

But when are these people going to learn?

I have no sympathy for the driver, throw him in jail for life, he killed 2 innocent people.

Holden Caulfield said :

That’s true. But it’s still a mistake in terms of being an error of judgement. You don’t have to look to hard on RA to find admissions of many regulars admitting to driving well in excess of the speed limit when they were young kids…

… and in one stellar and influential case on RD, in fully fledged adulthood!

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

This is disingenuous, and you know it. People who buy a ‘yaris or similar’ and keep it stock don’t drive around in packs with their dickhead mates egging each other on.

Woody, no, it’s absolutely correct. Your problem is that you are mistaking correlation for causation. So you observe or assume these hoons who break the law and kill people tend to drive particular types of cars. OK, did you think these people were turned into hoons when they bought the car? Or maybe they bought the car because they are hoons…

People blaming cars just have no idea. A small, underpowered, ~1000kg car with all modern safety features including things like pedestrian airbags can still cause fatal injuries to anyone on the road. Even if it is only going 40km/h.

Think about this before further uninformed, kneejerk reactions calling for banning things: some of the worst drivers I see are people in little shit boxes they don’t care about and try to push them as fast as they can through 40/50/60 zones.

The problem is the people. So the solution (actually there will never be a solution, but at least a way to improve the problem) is people. Namely, awareness and training.

Woody, nail hit on the head.

We’ll just cut and paste your response next time a road warrior wipes out some young lives needlessly and a car enthusiast defends the culture.

I totally agree with CoffinRX2.

You get these young punks(P- platers, not all but most) on the road and they think they are bloody immortal and that they can only drive at one speed…fast! They shit me to tears.

I went through Clift Cres tonight on my way home from work and the skid marks tell the story.

The people that live in the house, of the tree that they hit, must of got the fright of their lives.

Two dead and Two in ICU, I feel for the families and I hope their friends think about this next time they get behind the wheel of a car.

My 2c.

I love the independence of youth car culture, its energy, and the raw freedom of kids who haven’t throw the TV out the hotel window themselves, yet.

But… kids who see the car as a utility, a mere carriage between events of interest, rather than the event itself…

They’re going to live longer.

Part of the choice is with the parents,

And part of it is with the kids reading this for themselves.

It’s small and sad number of sociopaths who consciously take their friends on the last and darkest of walks.

true but at least it gets some of them off the roads…

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

This is disingenuous, and you know it. People who buy a ‘yaris or similar’ and keep it stock don’t drive around in packs with their dickhead mates egging each other on.

You try to legitimise it with meaningless phrases like “capability of the driver” and “capability of the car” like these are objective, concrete measures as opposed to something that sits somewhere in your crotch. You claim anybody who dies just exceeded one or both of these, the implication being that it’s ok for you to drive that way because you have superior abilities or a better car.

You all drive like idiots, all of the time, because that’s what you are – stupid children attracted to childish pursuits. “I just like modifying loud, fast cars to be faster and louder so I can admire them in the garage – I don’t drive dangerously, and I always drive on a real track!” Yeah, and I read Playboy for the articles and my doctor says I have to do these wrist exercises.

More driver education won’t change these morons – they’re criminals because they want to be, not because they don’t know any better.

Oh my god *rollseyes* … so you’re telling me that someone theoretically who’s car may be off the road, broken, being serviced or whatever, and took their parents “yaris or similar” out with a bunch of mates would drive totally different? … Absolutely not, once again it comes down the the driver, their abilities and mindset … the vehicle/weapon of choice can still creat the same amount of damage. …. any person who either exceeds the limits of the vehicle they are in, or their own ability can cause damage, regardless! .. Yes including me.

“you all drive like idiots, all of the time …. ” so can i happily stereotype you by saying, “here’s a keyboard warrior who’s got NFI because posts on an internet forum/page” …. No I hear you say, .. get your facts correct before tarring every enthusiast with the same brush.

I modify my car because I enjoy it, I enjoy using the laws of physics to improve something, yes my car may be loud, but i bet it’s 5 times safer than they vehicle when it was first released. .. I dont sit it in the garage all the time, I dont street race it, I drive it like everyone else on the the road, I take it to wakefield park, WSID, Wheels car shows. Myself and others enjoy the cars we build on the race track, I’m also affiliated with 3 car clubs here in canberra, a confederation of australian motor sport licence holder, and involved with many community projects in the automotive field and the council of motor clubs, so please do not get all high and mighty with im sure you’re perfect driving record, when you have not all the facts.

Driver education may not kill the attitude out there, but may give some people some better skills needed in situations they don’t predict.

Because nobody ever speeds or dies in towns with legal drag tracks. These tools speed because it’s illegal – that’s the thrill. The thrill isn’t doing 110 – if it was, they’d jump on the highway, tear up to Goulburn then turn around. The thrill is doing 110 in a 60 zone, or 130 in an 80 zone.

idiyball said :

this also brings up the true canberra argument about where is our legal drag track?

Hmmm, yes. We need a drag track to appease those who break the law. Maybe if it’s a really nice drag track, they’ll behave on the roads and spare the rest of us.

you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

This is disingenuous, and you know it. People who buy a ‘yaris or similar’ and keep it stock don’t drive around in packs with their dickhead mates egging each other on.

You try to legitimise it with meaningless phrases like “capability of the driver” and “capability of the car” like these are objective, concrete measures as opposed to something that sits somewhere in your crotch. You claim anybody who dies just exceeded one or both of these, the implication being that it’s ok for you to drive that way because you have superior abilities or a better car.

You all drive like idiots, all of the time, because that’s what you are – stupid children attracted to childish pursuits. “I just like modifying loud, fast cars to be faster and louder so I can admire them in the garage – I don’t drive dangerously, and I always drive on a real track!” Yeah, and I read Playboy for the articles and my doctor says I have to do these wrist exercises.

More driver education won’t change these morons – they’re criminals because they want to be, not because they don’t know any better.

Sad to hear of yet more deaths on our roads.

RIP.

I can only hope that the Police start targetting bad and irresponsible driving, not just only speeding.

I-filed said :

I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be discussed as a “mistake” if a driver in another vehicle had happened to be collected and killed …

That’s true. But it’s still a mistake in terms of being an error of judgement. You don’t have to look to hard on RA to find admissions of many regulars admitting to driving well in excess of the speed limit when they were young kids.

Unfortunately, this behaviour is always going to happen. Some get away with it, some don’t.

CoffinRX2 said :

Sheepgroper: not at all, its quite easy to lose control of a car at ANY speed, its down to driver control

Sure, but the stopping distance is greater at greater speeds. The skid marks were very long, at 60 the driver would have atopped skidding well before they actually did at 100.

That’s not to mention any reaction problems caused by any drinking beforehand.

There are some shitful drivers out there, and canberran are the worst of them. I’ve lived in Adelaide, Brisbane, and for work been many many times to Sydney, Melbourne and perth, and Canberrans are by far the worst drivers by a mile.

I might even look up state by state stats at work when i can to see what the claim rates are

CoffinRX2 said :

idiyball, thats exactly what im getting at, people stereotype everyone into the same category.

The only thing that will fix this, and the government will never do it, is to introduce a national competency programme when it comes to licensing!!

having only gained my licence 7 months ago, i agree there should be a national competency system that driver should have to sit when they renew their licence, you might take this as cocky p-plater syndrome but there are some horrible drivers out there, somthing you really notice when you spend a fair amount of money on lesson having it drummed into you what you have to do on the roads to be a safe driver.

Idiy, to those people they give no fark about the “stereotype” …. just annoys the people who actually do the right thing, take their cars to the track, modify them to exceed Australian Design Regulations and make their cars actually safer than the typical uneducated teenager in whatever car they may have.

Lanyon Chick. The info about the driver you recevied is not correct.

CoffinRX2 said :

idiyball said :

thats cause the idiots who drive that fast are the ones with the i have a small one so i have to have a big fast car syndrome,

wow here come the stereotypes again *rolls eyes* …. so you’ve seen in the pants of every guy (or girl for that matter) who drives a modified car?.

No, but im happy to keep spreading the stereotype if it is annoying to the ones who go out there and drive above there skill and the speedlimit in dangerous places, when it becomes a myth that is accepted as general knowledge it might just deter them.

this also brings up the true canberra argument about where is our legal drag track?

idiyball, thats exactly what im getting at, people stereotype everyone into the same category.

The only thing that will fix this, and the government will never do it, is to introduce a national competency programme when it comes to licensing!!

Ant: no but the general insurance claims show that the generaly driver who is not as educated makes more claims per capita on average than others who arent.

Sheepgroper: not at all, its quite easy to lose control of a car at ANY speed, its down to driver control

lost the quote bit at the top

“I work within the insurance industry at the moment, …. the claim rate of general insurers sits around the 20% mark or more across the entire vehicle portfolio. .. whereas specialty insurers of proper enthusiasts are well below 10%”

CoffinRX2 said :

I work within the insurance industry at the moment, …. the claim rate of general insurers sits around the 20% mark or more across the entire vehicle portfolio. .. whereas specialty insurers of proper enthusiasts are well below 10%[/quote>

this is because there is a difference between a car enthusiast who looks after there car, and a teenager in a hotted up car driving well above there skill level.

idiyball said :

thats cause the idiots who drive that fast are the ones with the i have a small one so i have to have a big fast car syndrome,

wow here come the stereotypes again *rolls eyes* …. so you’ve seen in the pants of every guy (or girl for that matter) who drives a modified car?

I’m sure that i could make up a stereotype regarding one of your passions and relate it back to your genitalia if you wanted? …. people buy/modify/create cars because its something in their blood, its a passion.

My 17 year old son was friends with three of these people. We have just been informed the driver has just died, that makes three, the other girl is still in intensive care. yes they were speeding and had all just left a party at the slovenian club, apparently alcohol was also a factor.very tragic …..but unfortunatley i still dont beleive these young ones will learn from it.

CoffinRX2 said :

If it was at the “maximum ability of the car” it would still be on the road.

If the driver had kept to the speed limit, the car would still be on the road.

On tonight’s ABC news it was reported the estimated speed was 100kph, the length of the skid marks was pretty imporessive.

I’m sure that insurance claims exactly match the numbers of people killed. After all, no one ever claims for bingles and dents. Only for fatalities.

And of course, all people in souped-up fast cars are enthusiasts, dedicated to those cars and buying special insurance for them. Uh huh.

“drive properly” as in not 3x the speed limit perhaps?

ant said :

And yet, people in souped-up fast cars seem to kill themselves – and/or their families and friends – in far greater numbers than do the drivers of Yarises and the like.

Feel free to back that up with evidence?

I work within the insurance industry at the moment, …. the claim rate of general insurers sits around the 20% mark or more across the entire vehicle portfolio. .. whereas specialty insurers of proper enthusiasts are well below 10%

thats cause the idiots who drive that fast are the ones with the i have a small one so i have to have a big fast car syndrome,

Nosey said :

Exceed the speed limit quickly or slowly.

The results can be the same.

Exceed speed limit = possible death.

NOT WORTH IT.

Walk along the street and be hit by a car = possible death

Drive perfectly and safely and be the victim of someone who isnt skilled enough in the right situation, or someone on their mobile phone, doing their hair on the way to work = possible death.

Speed doesnt kill! inexperienced people, innatentive people kill!!

How many people died today at the Formula 1 in Melbourne? or at a track day at wakefield park? .. thats right no one, and they were all doing speeds well in excess of the legislated limits of this country.

How many more people have died in NT since open speed limits were reintroduced? I’m pretty certain its more than when unrestricted limits were in force!

I constantly travel at high speeds in the forests in a rally car, with huge trees less than metres from the car, and handling conditions far worse than you’ll ever see on the street and im still alive, mainly due to the fact of having the ability to control the car im in charge of (or co-driving)

Stop listening to the crap that the govtco feeds to the mindless masses about speed kills
…. educate people to drive properly instead!

@ CoffinRX2, yes cars don’t kill people, people kill people (in cars).

And yet, people in souped-up fast cars seem to kill themselves – and/or their families and friends – in far greater numbers than do the drivers of Yarises and the like.

No, the driver has driven the car in excess of their abilities and the limits of the car.

If it was at the “maximum ability of the car” it would still be on the road.

Teach people to drive properly, not blame the vehicles

Stereotypes exist for a reason.

The car involved was a HSV and from the size of the brake marks at the site (near the low 30s on Clift Crescent) you don’t need a physics degree to work out that the car was not “driving to the conditions” but to the maximum ability of the car.

Danman said :

you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

True, but its so much easier to exceed the speed limit in a shorter distance in a car with a higher power to weight ratio, thus making mortal terminal velocity at time of impact greater, and achieving it more often than in say a yaris or similar

Without knowing where the vehicle stated from stationary, its a moot point.

regardless of power to weight issues, and acceleration issues, … just because you have better power to weight doesnt mean you’re going to go faster. …. If I go 150kph in my rx7, doesnt meant I’d do 300 in a bugati veyron on the same roads, .. You still “drive to the conditions”

Sick of the stereo type of “hoons” and “overpowered shiny cars” … *rollseyes*

Exceed the speed limit quickly or slowly.

The results can be the same.

Exceed speed limit = possible death.

NOT WORTH IT.

you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

True, but its so much easier to exceed the speed limit in a shorter distance in a car with a higher power to weight ratio, thus making mortal terminal velocity at time of impact greater, and achieving it more often than in say a yaris or similar

CoffinRX2 said :

plausibly_deniable said :

Drove past today: there are young people in shiny overpowered cars paying their respects.

I think its more the drivers are inexperienced, not “shiny overpowered cars” .. speed doesnt kill, its the sudden deceleration that does, … you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

So true. A waste of two lives from moments of idiocy. After so many people dying in a similar way, how idiots like the driver of this car can think they’re awesome for being able to do 100kph+ in a 60 zone is beyond me.

CoffinRX2 said :

plausibly_deniable said :

Drove past today: there are young people in shiny overpowered cars paying their respects.

I think its more the drivers are inexperienced, not “shiny overpowered cars” .. speed doesnt kill, its the sudden deceleration that does, … you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

hear hear!

How badly messed up was the vehicle?

its awful for the passengers….they should put the car at the drivers school for a month….even if it saves one life it will be worth the trouble.. went past the scene on the way home tonight and it was obviously a speed related incident….RIP and slow the hell down people!

plausibly_deniable said :

Drove past today: there are young people in shiny overpowered cars paying their respects.

I think its more the drivers are inexperienced, not “shiny overpowered cars” .. speed doesnt kill, its the sudden deceleration that does, … you can do as much damage to yourself in an underpowered toyota yaris or similar, just as much as you can in an HSV commodore.

It is heartbreaking.

grunge_hippy said :

I hit this particular road as hard as I can

what does that mean?

that road is nuts… people speed there all the time. needs a permanent speed camera there rather than on the monaro or parkway!

It is patrolled frequently

Holden Caulfield said :

A big price to pay for a foolish mistake. Poor buggers.

I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be discussed as a “mistake” if a driver in another vehicle had happened to be collected and killed …

pretty sure they basicly do have a permanent speed camera on clift as they set up camp at the bus stop around no40 a majority of the time, be it one of the vans or a marked or unmarked car.

Any idea what happened?

I hit this particular road as hard as I can

what does that mean?

that road is nuts… people speed there all the time. needs a permanent speed camera there rather than on the monaro or parkway!

I hit this particular road as hard as I can, it is heart breaking to needlessly see lives lost.

I don’t know what their hurry was,but am glad that nobody got in the way.

People drive like idiots on Clift Crescent. It’s on of those 60km/h streets that feels like a highway – except for the driveways, the gutters (you can’t put a wheel in the dirt like you can in the country) and the trees… Drove past today: there are young people in shiny overpowered cars paying their respects. Hope some of them can remember this moment next time they’re behind the wheel after midnight with mates in the back seat.

The 19 year old was a man, but the 17 year old was just a female?

What is it with Clift Crescent this week?

First we have a major accident on Friday & then a death on the same road, not even 48 hours later.

Condolences to Meagan’s family. A life taken short, you will be sadly missed Meagan, RIP.

A big price to pay for a foolish mistake. Poor buggers.

Firstly my condolences to the loved ones of both victims.

It seems that these deaths were particularly avoidable in this case however we see an accident of exactly this type every year. (eg 17 yo Amy Ryan last year). Unfortunately it now seems that losing a friend in a car accident is now an expected part of growing up.

so sad, they were so young. RIP