Flying the flag for Jesus!!

Has anyone seen the new tonk ads
“I have never been into rock n roll… but I have to admit, a lot of what tonk says really makes sense”
I ggigled when I saw it…

VY, my commentary might probably well go along these lines…

“Well, I finally do believe in the afterlife. I found it hard to rationalise without any actual proof of existense during my living life, and didn’t consider you real until now. I feel that I have lived my life in the way that didn’t diametrically oppose the Christian faith, although I must admit they may need to be given a little bit of direction in some very critical areas such as causing violence in order to obtain peace, and other intolerant behaviours amoungst your followers. Since I now believe in God, and I regret that the message didn’t get to me during my living life, I ask for your forgiveness, as the forgiving God, and ask for your permission to enter Heaven”.

But what happens if you turn up at the pearly gates and God says to you that you’ve had a lifetime to get to know Him, and you wasted it?

I think I’ll stick with being a good Samaritan.

The dude who looked after Jesus on the road wasn’t a christian afterall, he was a Samaritan.

If all it boils down to afterall is I can believe in God and be a nice person, or I can not believe in god and be a nice person (Samaritan), unfortunately I’ll be choosing the latter.

All that in between running my own faith of course. Never mind the wine, I can turn water into BEER !

How good am I ?

No, Maelinar, that’s not all you have to do. If so, and then you just go and ignore God and make no effort to become a better person and include Jesus in the picture, then I would hardly think you’re a true believer, because your actions aren’t in tune with your beliefs.

It’s one thing to be human and stuff up sometimes, it’s quite another to say you believe and make no effort to include that in your life.

The Bible does say “faith without works is dead” and vice versa, and also “by their fruits you will know them.” So by all means use that as your yardstick.

Look for a Christian that not only can articulate what they believe, but strives to be a better person, treats others with love and respect by and large.

(And it’s sadly the case that many churches are closed shops, with attendees patting themselves on the back for being there, but discouraging those who really need a hand or want to learn more from coming).

Absent Diane, if you saw kids getting bashed for being gay that’s not acceptable, and I would question what the hell those so-called Christians responsible were thinking.

By the way, Maelinar, saying you’re sorry at the pearly gates is way too late, especially if you don’t really mean it.

Which brings me straight back to the original question.

How is it that some things are not all right in the eyes of god, yet since we’re going to be forgiven anyway as we show up at the pearly gates who really cares either way ?

I fail to see why christians get so passionate about whatever anti-campaign they are on at that particular time, since all you have to do is a hippie style “I’m sorry man” and all is forgiven.

Obviously there is a difference between the theology that is contained within the bible, and within the minds of the average churchgoing zealot, but how is this defined ?

Is the bible so poorly written that it’s simply wrong ?

e.g. We recognised all that stuff about being kind to one another was good, yet the stuff about not eating fish on Fridays was found to be more of a situational thing between the village and the fishmonger’s hygiene practices and was subsequently dropped from normal religious beliefs.

Socrates logical rules are all about form.
If the form of an argument is flawed then the argument is not going to “get you there”.

The statements in the argument that were being made were:

-People who have exclusionary criteria for being a Christian are wrong.

-My exclusionary criteria are you must believe in “Jesus and the resurrection” to be a Christian.

-Therefore I am wrong (would seem to be the logical conclusion).

Appears logically inconsistent to me.

Binker – form schmorm. An effective arguement is in the substance, not the form. In other words, who cares if it’s ugly – it just has to get you there. I’m sure Socrates would agree…

Mr_S
The inconsistency isn’t in the substance (of the argument) but in the form (of the argument).

In context I am no better than a christian because I have never done anything more than whinge on a few websites….

Homer: God, if you really are God, you’ll get me tickets to that game.

[doorbell rings]

Ned Flanders: Heidely-ho, neighbor. Wanna go to the game with me? I got two tick…

Homer: [slams the door, looks heavenward] Why do you mock me, O Lord?

Marge: Homer, that’s not God. That’s just a waffle that Bart tossed up there.

[Marge scrapes it off the ceiling into Homer’s hands]

Homer: I know I shouldn’t eat thee, but…

[bites]

Homer: Mmm, sacrilicious.

*sigh* – why do I hear my mother’s voice saying “two wrongs don’t make a right”.

Wouldn’t you like to think of yourself as better than that? You seem to like to paint yourself as better than a Christian…

By association in other peoples eyes.. yes I am responsible for the war in iraq.. I may not of voted for the offending people… but I took part in a community that didn’t stop the war…. so yes…..

Okay – not howled down (that’s a bit strong). But there is a more substantial body of opionion on RA that is anti-religion than pro-religion.

Binker – I don’t think annie was committing a logical error. I shall deconstruct her arguement as:
“To be Christian, you must believe in Christ, therefore all Christians must believe in Christ.”

And:
“Not all Christians oppose abortion/divorce – Therefore it is not necessary to oppose abortion/divorce to be Christian”.

Using the same logical method for two separate arguements is not inconsistent.

AD – The church is not a single entity. The parts that get all the media attention tend to be the ones that ignore (and condone) paedophilia and brutality; persecute gays and the “morally deficient”; and apply destructive morals in inappropriate situations.

There are segments that preach tolerance, virtue and charity. They are no more complicit (and possibly less so) in the above than you and I are as members of a greater western society with a basis in Judeo-Christian morals.

Shall I blame you for the war in Iraq? Australia has soldiers there and supported the war…you are Australian, ergo you are complicit (are you crap, I say). Likewise, blaming the church for all that is wrong in the world smacks of bigotry.

Yup – the Christian church has done, and continues to do some pretty crap things. But we’re humans. If we didn’t have religion as a pretext, we’d find some other reason to be shit to one another.

Mr_S
My point was more pointing out a logical inconsistency in annie’s argument rather than whether needing to believe in Jesus and the resurrection was a necessary criteria for being included in the group “Christian” (as opposed to some other criteria such as, that you must not get divorced, to be include in the group “Christian”).

I’m not fussed what people believe as long it does not impinge negatively on my rights, freedoms and responsibilities. (not howling just politely arguing)

Yes misguided zealots, political struggles have often been the real reason behind the foul atrocities committed…. I would probably also include cultural strain and de-evolution as well

If that is the case and the good eggs are aware of it… shouldn’t they be actively trying to distance themselves….

I have friends who were bashed at christian schools for being fags….friends who have only just got out of school…. shouldn’t the church be preaching against that… against pedderassed priests… against the fuckheads in africa who are preaching against contraception..

The wankers who commit these kind of crimes are supported in one way or another by the rest of the church community… at the very least they validate the churches existence… therefore are equally to blame…

By the way, I don’t mind getting “howled down”.

This place is a place to share opinions and discuss things, and that’s what we’re doing now.

I am not trying to shove my faith down anyone’s throat, we’re just talking about what we believe.

And in the end, we all have to come to our own conclusions. You make up your mind as to what you can live with, and I do the same.

We can do no more than that.

I hadn’t mentioned that aspect of it, Mr Shab, because I was only talking about some of the reasons.

But you’re dead right: Christianity has been hijacked for people using it to justify some stupid crap, and it’s gotten off-track in practice, too.

But that was my point: we Christians have got to LIVE what we believe, so that we become better people for ourselves, the rest of society and for God himself.

And Binker – I’ve gotta agree with Annie. You really do need to believe in the big guy to be Christian.

I probably take a lot of Christian ethics into my approach to the world, but I don’t believe in God, Jesus or the resurection. Ergo, I am not a Christian, I would argue.

I can see why the GB’s don’t come here Mael – like Annie they get howled down.

Sorry Annie, but I think you’re a bit wide of the mark.

I think you’re pretty close on some of the reasons people don’t go to church anymore. Yep, the sermons can be long, and the hymns are pretty awful.

I think you’re overlooking a more important reason. A lot of people don’t need the meaningfulness that church gives them any more, having found a meaning in avarice, consumerism and “rugged individualism”, rather than charity, church and community.

I think places like Hillsong are just picking up on this and adapting the word of the Bible to suit their needs. Hillsong (and it’s ilk) love to preach to the greedy (God wants you to be rich, etc) and gives you just enough community (with other church-goers, of course) to stop you getting lonely, but not enough to start you asking questions.

Sadly, Christianity has become a byword for bloody-minded moral conservatism and bigotry; rather than for charity, community and spiritual guideance.

The assertion that “God loves despite your faults” has a Calvinist ring (we are inherently sinful, and saved only by the grace of God – but you’d better be damned greatful for it).

Of course, the message has been co-opted into “God loves you in spite of the fact that you’re a stinking, bigoted, lying, greedy, two-faced little prick; and because of this, you should feel no need to remedy this or feel the slighest bit ashamed about continuing to be a stinking, bigoted, lying, greedy, two-faced little prick”.

I thought the message was supposed to be strive to be a better person, but be tolerant of the faults of others (Judge not…love thy neighbour… etc). I think a lot of Christians tend to forget this message, and spend more time congratulating themselves about being good Christians (in the going to church sense) than actually being Christian (in the living the message kind of a way).

Here endeth my sermon. Bollocks to anyone saying it’s too long.

PS: Binker, ‘religion’ is about acknowledging God and living the way he wants us to. Logic and faith are uncomfortable bedfellows, I’ll admit.

I can see the point of your no.2, but Jesus himself said the only way to the Father is through him. He’s at the centre of it all. That’s the one thing you can’t leave out of your faith.

Hillsong-ers shit me no end. You tell them you’re already a Christian and happily going to church elsewhere and they still won’t leave you alone. Yes, I agree it’s a cult – & it gives the rest of us a bad name.

As for religion causing most wars, it’s unfortunately the case that misguided zealots have done a lot of damage, and continue to do so.

A lot of this is due to people using religion as an excuse to grab political power and control.

Then you’ve got others who don’t accept you can’t force people to think the same way as you.

It’s terrible, because our actions speak louder than words, and if our lives dont reflect the true nature of God and therefore love, why should we be surprised that non-believers reject what we SAY?

Annie
1st. Using “logic” to make arguments about religion which has no empirical evidence to support its purported truth/basis/etc is an abuse of logical argument.

2nd. By arguing that, if you don’t believe in Jesus or the resurrection you are not Christian, you are committing the same error which you argue against (i.e. if you have an abortion you are not Christian: if you get divorced you are not Christian), it is just that you have made up your own (or applied someone else’s) inclusion/exclusion criteria.

Hill song is nothing but a cult.

I think all christians (by that I mean catholics, jews and muslims) should feel the weight of guilt and stand up and take responsibility for the fact that their religions have caused most wars… and have been responsible for murder on a grand scale through out the years.

Once various churches can admit sponsoring murder then they should be allowed to join society

As a Christian, I too am embarrassed by this campaign. It completely misses the point about why people don’t go to church, for one thing.

Part of the reason: boring sermons, and off-key singing. (I’m convinced a lot of the success of Hillsong is due to their music. It’s actually in tune and somewhat interesting to listen to).

Anyway, to answer you, Maelinar, we say God loves us even though we stuff up all the time because it’s true and it’s right.

Here’s my logic: we’re not perfect and never will be in this lifetime, and the whole point of what Jesus did and what’s in the Bible is to open up the lines of communication between us, so that we can have the relationship we’re meant to have with him (and each other).

There ARE so-called Christians out there who will immediately cut off someone who’s had an abortion, for example, or is divorced, but that’s not very loving, and a bit hypocritical, considering we all go around doing things God would rather we didn’t sometimes.

Some examples from the Bible: King David and Moses both murdered someone, yet they went on to be forgiven and do great things for Jesus.

Also, sometimes Christians are known to cherry-pick their beliefs. I always have a laugh when I watch the old episode of Yes, Prime Minister, when Humphrey is explaining the types of Christians in the church to his boss. (Modernists don’t believe in God, etc).

In my book, if you don’t believe in Jesus and the resurrection, you’re not a believer and shouldn’t kid yourself.

A lot of the other stuff is a matter of personal conscience and it’s between you and God.

Here endeth my sermon. Sorry it’s a bit long.

If there are any GB’s out there waiting to pounce on this topic – I would like to ask you an ecumenical theologial question.

How do you rationalise the difference between what is written in the bible “no matter what you do, god will love you”, in effect a written contractual agreement meaning you have carte blanche approval to do whatever you want to do, against apparent vice against christianity like bum-sex, using contraception (Catholics), abortion, and eating fish on fridays ?

Surely the rationale of even though I just had an abortion, but god loves me anyway (cause that’s how it’s written in your own bloody book) causes an area of radical concern ?

How do you fill this knowledge/theology gap ?

Do you selectively choose what you want to follow and ignore the rest ?

Is ignoring what is in the bible yet another sin ?

personally as a christian I’m embarrassed by the campaign.

You forgot the ACTION bus fixation and the shock jock radio wannabe stuff, but I think we all get your drift there JB…

You do realise God no longer loves you, and you are no longer welcome in his kingdom of heaven (just bringing it back on topic) from what you have said ?

Actually, I’ve just noticed – where are the godbotherers ?

Usually they’d be on this topic like flies to sh_t…

Oh sure, it starts with just one extra statistic to get through the day.

But the next thing you know I’ll be mapping the number of coffees i’ve drunk during the day, living with my parents, doing a photo pictorial tour of a trip to the refrigerator, and getting in a huff about things people say in the comments about me on TSSH.

I don’t think there’s room in this town for TWO blogs like that do you? (this world for that matter)

Oh come on!

Just a teeny weeny little stat – how many unique visitors today ?

GIVE ME MY HIT MAN!!!

I NEED THE STATISTICS

JB does extra patience score us extra stats…

you get stats once a month and not before.

patience!

K, of course you’re cool. Go prod Johnboy and get him to blurt out how many other people are ‘into’ RiotACT this month over CT or something like that.

It’s been simply ages since we had some statistics around here…

(minus the ‘the’ from the last line of my post)

I don’t care which religion your from, waving a flag in my face will not get me to join.

Besides – Coke Zero is aimed at males who arn’t manly enough to order a Diet Coke. Instead of the some males getting some balls, they just invented a new Coke. Go figure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola_Zero

Didn’t know RA was something one could be “into”…does it make me cool?

Maybe we need some brainwashing flags too.

Shab – Mine may have more mass marketing appeal but if I were to see either (not having written mine) I would go for yours…

Thats the spirit JaMa none of us are really into riotact…. its just that being overly (and freely) opinionated is just so damn addictive and that’s why we are so into it.. hmm did I just make anti-statement????

I’m not really into RiotACT, but a lot of what you guys are saying is pretty funny.

Okay – AD’s is snappier. But mine has more bile.

Jesus Zero – zero requirement for an ascetic lifestyle of chastity, humility, respect for others and helping the poor and downtrodden; with all the moral justification for peering down your nose at the “morally deficient” and treating people like dirt for your own benefit you expect from modern Christianity.

Zero jesus – zero calaries with mind washing flavour!! I like it!!

I wonder if everyone would be so openly negative if it was a Muslim campaign??

Interesting hypothetical, however, can anyone see it ever happening? I can only imagine that the authorities would be less receptive to flying any non-Christian flags on those poles, or approve any non-Christian marketing to be broadcast to the mass media.

I guess like Coke, the Christians have the Australian market cornered. And now with the launch of new “Jesus Zero” they look to continue their reign.

Dunno if it’s worth a shit-storm, but I can’t help but find advertising for religion a little bit…distasteful.

VY – these ad campaigns by the Christian churches seem to be geared solely at the fraction of society that needs a convenient moral cause to rally around; being convinced that it is being hardly-done-by by the PC elite, and that minority groups are going to take over the world.

People like you, in other words.

I think the difference here, and the reason you won’t see a “Mohammed/Buddha/Vishnu/Yahweh means life” flag is that other churches/religions in Australia aren’t so utterly convinced that if they don’t do something NOW the world is going to collapse into an orgy of abortion and bottom-sex.

For the record, I would find flags advertising other religions equally distasteful.

VY it seems implicit within you question that Muslim bashing is not PC. I would suggest it is de rigueur.

vyberlinav8 – yup 100%….

St Thumper on the road to Charnwood

I wonder if everyone would be so openly negative if it was a muslim campaign??

The fact they have to advertise belies the simple fact that their numbers are so low they have to recruit, and revisit their recruitment approach, to bolster the zealot base.

How they got their money ? Years and years of pillage – I thought everybody knew that already.

As for me, I don’t believe in Christianity, I don’t believe in God. I do believe that a lot of the things they talk about are good things, such as be good and kind to one another etc.

As they say in the bible; Every Christian should strive to be a good Samaritan. I simply choose to be a good Samaritan without the Christianity crap.

(After all the Beer Religion stuff is done anyway)

I tried to begin a rant about this a couple of weeks ago when the ads started appearing on TV. Must have stuffed it up.

I reckon Bill and Ted had some good things to say about life as well, but I don’t go jamming it down other peoples throats.

Its the new version of the buddy christ. Revamping Christianity to make it look sexy for new converts.

There are big banners up outside some churches, as well as flags and TV advertising. Some church group propably won lotto and needed some way to spend the cash.

The flags tell me to be a christian. Must obey flags.

I noticed these flags at least a week ago and had a big rant to whoever it was in the car with me at the time (to whom I’m quite sorry).

The Jesus thing in the coca-cola script seems to be a general rebranding of Christianity as far as I can tell — the FOCUS group at UC at least has also changed to this same branding and instead of brandishing a dodgy homemade sign they now have spanky t-shirts and cards and stuff.

So the question is, who’s bankrolling it all? I don’t imagine those flags come cheap, not to mention rebranding and co-ordinating all the various uni groups and churches.

Well…screw you all.

I FOUND JESUS!

He was hiding behind the couch…

Boom-tish!

Sorry. ‘Twas a long day.

For the sake of eternal place in the good christian afterlife, I’m willing to believe the good people at ‘Jesus means life’. That is Jesus is pro-rich, pro-war, pro-family (but only the good married kind with kids), and of course Jesus is American!

so if anyone can hire a flagpole for advertising what would you want to use it for, besides the RIOTACT Cheaper Beer and Petrol party

anyone got a garage sale they want to get some exposure for?

It won’t be long before govt comes up with a similar campaign to get the apathetic in this community to engage in what happening is their fair citadel:

“I’m not into politics, but a lot of what Jon Stanhope said makes sense.”

Im not infuriated any more than normal… in fact I find it funny…. the dellusional morons just don’t understand that religion is no longer relevant in our society… the only purpose it has is to drag us all down.. like it consistenly does….

Oh good, just when I thought I was the only person completely infuriated by this campaign.

I just love the logic behind the slogan though: “I’m not into religion, but a lot of what Jesus said makes sense.” Now just analyse that quote for a second… If one does not believe in religion, then Jesus does not exist for them. If Jesus does not exist, then his words must be fictional. Therefore: “I’m not into religion, but a lot of fictional writing makes sense.” Enough said.

But back on topic, the flags on Commonweath Avenue are for sale. Consider it a more tasteful replacement for giant billboards, but infinitely more difficult to read when travelling at 60km/h. I wonder if the driver who hit that unfortunate jogger on Comm Ave bridge last week will use that as a defence? “Jesus flags made me do it!” Could be a winner, because as everyone knows, religion can be used to justify anything!

How about “Never mind the bread, show me how you did that wine trick again?”, or “If he turned it into beer instead of wine, we’d all still be christians”.

My Slogan would be “jesus kills”

“Jesus

My counter slogan “I am a christian, but I think all of the churchs have some pretty screwed up things to say about life”.

Didn’t someone get busted for putting Triple J flags up on those poles during a “beat the drum” comp some years back?

Haha…just wait until Johnboy will fly the RA flag.

The Jesus flags replaced the AAMI Black Opal stakes flags all around Canberra…

So yep, it seems anyone can buy the space

Yeah I was suprised by this as well.

Interestingly it seems to be a Canberra only campaign. http://www.allaboutlife.com.au/pages/content_who.asp?pid=3

I thinking of making some counter adds saying “I’m not a communist, but I think Marx had some important things to say about life”.

I was being sarcastic. Not very well obviously. I’m just surprised they can be rented like this.

I’m guessing you want to hire the flag poles for the advertising space rather than the “Jesus means life” flags?