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Police officer forces deletion of photos taken in ‘public’

By Chris Mordd Richards 10 April 2013 107

A rather disturbing event occurred this evening that I would like to share with you all and get feedback on.

I was at Woden bus interchange at 6:20pm (9/4/13) and witnessed 3 Westfield security personnel chasing a young girl (approx. 15/16yrs old) through the interchange (the girl was walking fast but not running as such). Curious and with nothing better to do while waiting for my bus I followed them to see what what was going on. The security caught up with the girl at the eastern edge of the interchange and were joined by a 4th Westfield security guard and surrounded the girl preventing her getting away. At this point I didn’t think that was too unusual but thought i’d continue to observe while waiting for my bus.

While watching them the girl made 2 attempts to get past the guards and away from them, and on both occasions one of the guards (the same one both times) grabbed the girl by the arm, and in my opinion, dragged her quite aggressively and violently back into the middle of the circle the guards had formed. At this point I started taking photos on my mobile phone of what was going on as the manner in which the guard wrenched her by the arm seemed to constitute quite excessive force in my opinion and possibly consituted an assault on the girl, who was short and skinny and no match for the burly security personnel.

After about ten minutes 2 police officers approached the scene and I informed them that I was a bystander who had witnessed one of the guards violently wrench the girl by the arm, and was asked to wait to the side while they spoke to the people involved, which I did, standing about 5-6 metres back from the scene and patiently waiting to speak to one of the officers. Eventually I was approached by a Constable Cubbins who informed I could go. I stated I wanted my details recorded as a witness to the possible assault on the girl involved. Constable Cubbins refused to take my details, and then demanded to see the photos I had taken on my phone, obviously informed of this fact by the security guards as I had not mentioned taking photos to the officers when I first approached them myself.

I complied, showing the officer the three photos I had taken, at which point Constable Cubbins ordered me to delete the photos from my phone (note the photos were only of the security guards and girl, not of the police officers themselves, not that this should make a difference though). I initially refused, stating that my understanding was I had every right to have taken the photos and that he did not have the right to order me to delete them.

At this point Constable Cubbins stated that if I did not delete the photos he would confiscate my phone as evidence. Not wanting to lose my phone (although I was sure this was just an intimidation tactic to get me to comply), I informed Constable Cubbins that I would delete the photos as he had demanded – and proceeded to do so – but that I would be following up the next day in regards to this demand, as I believed he had no legal right to force me to do this. I stated for the record my objection to being forced to delete the photos.

At this point Constable Cubbins simply walked off and proceeded to escort the girl towards the police station with the other officer, leaving me with no option but to go and get my bus home, feeling quite intimidated and angry at my perception that Constable Cubbins had no right to have ordered me to delete the photos. Having done some research online now, I believe that I did have every right to have taken the photos, and furthermore that an ACT police officer has no right to order the deletion of said photos or to threaten to confiscate my phone if that threat was given with the sole intent to get me to comply with an illegal instruction from the officer.

The only thing I am not sure about is whether the bus interchange counts as Public or Private property which could have an impact on the legality of the instruction given to me by Constable Cubbins. Given the interchange is owned by the ACT government and accessible to the general public my understanding is this counts as public property but I still need to clarify this properly.

In my opinion it is bad enough that Constable Cubbins refused to take my statement in regards to my alleging an assault had taken place (his response on that was the guards were effecting an arrest, therefore whatever they did was lawful, and that if the girl involved made a complaint about it they would review the bus interchange security footage and therefore my statement was not required), however I am admittedly pretty livid over being forced to delete the photos from my phone, as I believe that is a breach of my civil rights.

I intend to call Legal Aid in the morning and consult with them in regards to what occurred and how (and who) best to make a formal complaint to so that the matter can be investigated, and I welcome any and all opinions on this as to the legalities involved here. Meanwhile I have downloaded some file recovery software and will be attempting to restore the deleted files from my phones SD card – the photos themselves don’t show very much (and my cameras 2MP camera is low quality obviously) but the principle of the matter is at stake here and I would like to recover the photos in case I can use them as evidence in the complaint I can make.

UPDATE 16:42 10/04/13: ACT Policing had this response:

· ACT Policing can confirm officers attended an incident involving two females at Woden bus interchange yesterday.

· Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, this can be done online via the AFP website (www.afp.gov.au)


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107 Responses to
Police officer forces deletion of photos taken in ‘public’
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banco 5:50 pm 12 Apr 13

Tool said :

Barcham said :

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Trial by media? Ok, so this is the way we now deal with issues of concern. Don’t go through proper process or allow natural justice, expose people, name names on Riot-Act and all is ok?

.

If he’d made a complaint to the AFP it would have gone straight to the bin. Bringing public attention to this kind of stuff is the only way to (occasionally) force action.

Ben_Dover 5:30 pm 12 Apr 13

I was told to stop filming once in a public place. I was making a DVD of “my life in Canberra” for me dear old Welsh mam, to take back to the UK for her to see where I now live. I was filming the Embassies, as they are rather twee and cute. I had no problems until I tried filming….The US Embassy… Then I was approached by the AFP, and politely told to p!ss off. I remonstrated that no other Embassy has told me to p!ss off, Mr Policeman said, and I quote; “Some people are more paranoid than others.”

WE had a good chuckle, and I told him of my years living in London when the IRA were bombing pubs, funded by Yank cash. He told me, “You can pull great views of this area off Google Earth.”

Nice man.

I didn’t delete the clips of the Yank Embassy I had already shot though.

bundah 4:57 pm 12 Apr 13

Tool said :

Barcham said :

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Trial by media? Ok, so this is the way we now deal with issues of concern. Don’t go through proper process or allow natural justice, expose people, name names on Riot-Act and all is ok?

I am going to start recording names of the public servants I see wearing name tags breaching the code of conduct by doing things like drinking on their lunch break on this site, hopefully it will get posted because expressing my concern to anyone else would be ridiculous, good for the goose, good for the gander.

Now now Cunstable Cubbins you’ve been caught out so it’s time to face the music!

Tooks 4:10 pm 12 Apr 13

Instant Mash said :

And people wonder why the po-po in this town have such a shite reputation.

Except they don’t have a bad reputation in this town at all, and that’s the unfortunate thing about incidents like these (and for the moment, I’ll take the OP’s version of events at face value).

Having a family member who was recently treated by police in a disgraceful and appalling manner, I can tell you it has a really long lasting effect on a person’s perception of police. This family member, who has never been in any trouble whatsover in his adult life, will now always be wary if he comes into contact with police in the future, due to the actions of a few. The concerning thing for me was that he was going to let it go (after some convincing, he’ll now be making a complaint).

Grimm 12:09 pm 11 Apr 13

Pitchka said :

Sounds like someone has had one to many run ins with the local police.

Run their show like its a mafia? Such as?

Actually, I have had precisely 0 run ins with the local police. I just expect the people entrusted with upholding the law to obey it themselves.

The running it like the mafia comment was in relation to evidence and witness tampering. That was kinda their specialty for a while.

Why do so many d***heads think the police should get a free pass on committing crimes? Defending the actions of the bad ones isn’t helping the good ones out at all.

Instant Mash 11:59 am 11 Apr 13

And people wonder why the po-po in this town have such a shite reputation.

I’d almost bet that if their station wasn’t right across the street, they’d likely have told the security blokes to deal with it themselves.

OLydia 11:55 am 11 Apr 13

Tool said :

Barcham said :

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Trial by media? Ok, so this is the way we now deal with issues of concern. Don’t go through proper process or allow natural justice, expose people, name names on Riot-Act and all is ok?

I am going to start recording names of the public servants I see wearing name tags breaching the code of conduct by doing things like drinking on their lunch break on this site, hopefully it will get posted because expressing my concern to anyone else would be ridiculous, good for the goose, good for the gander.

Tool, you might like to read the Code of Conduct before pulling a stunt like this. The Code doesn’t prevent public servants from drinking.

joingler 11:49 am 11 Apr 13

Mordd said :

For the record, I do support the right of the security guards to detain the girl for whatever offence she committed, as long as that is done within the bounds of the law. I worked security myself a number of years ago and am not unfamiliar with the situations security guards face, however I am also aware from that as to the limits of what security guards can do, especially when it comes to using appropriate/reasonable force against a suspect, which is why I believe the force I witnessed constituted excessive force.

I am just wondering (genuine, not sarcastic) if you were in the guards shoes, what would you have done differently? Here you have someone who has (assumedly) committed or been an accessory to a crime. She is trying to escape and you need to detain her until police arrive. How do you keep her detained when she is trying to run off? Was it a case of bad technique by the guards?

I work with children and often face a similar predicament but thankfully it is very rare I have to grab a child (only twice in 6 years)

I am 100% with you on the phone/camera issue here, it is the alleged mistreatment of the girl I am still trying to form an opinion on.

Lastly, I smell a Mully…..

Pitchka 11:40 am 11 Apr 13

Grimm said :

Barcham said :

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Nah, we should just allow police committing serious crimes to continue on their merry way. Sweep it under the rug and let them run their show like it’s the mafia.

Sounds like someone has had one to many run ins with the local police.

Run their show like its a mafia? Such as?

p1 11:34 am 11 Apr 13

Tool said :

I am going to start recording names of the public servants I see wearing name tags breaching the code of conduct by doing things like drinking on their lunch break on this site…

I might drink on my lunch break, but never on this site!

Aeek 10:52 am 11 Apr 13

Grimm said :

Nah, we should just allow police committing serious crimes to continue on their merry way. Sweep it under the rug and let them run their show like it’s the mafia.

So who gets to be Eastman this time around ?

Tool 10:42 am 11 Apr 13

Barcham said :

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Trial by media? Ok, so this is the way we now deal with issues of concern. Don’t go through proper process or allow natural justice, expose people, name names on Riot-Act and all is ok?

I am going to start recording names of the public servants I see wearing name tags breaching the code of conduct by doing things like drinking on their lunch break on this site, hopefully it will get posted because expressing my concern to anyone else would be ridiculous, good for the goose, good for the gander.

Grimm 10:38 am 11 Apr 13

Barcham said :

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Nah, we should just allow police committing serious crimes to continue on their merry way. Sweep it under the rug and let them run their show like it’s the mafia.

Barcham 10:32 am 11 Apr 13

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Jim Jones 10:32 am 11 Apr 13

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

Tool by name …

Tool 10:21 am 11 Apr 13

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

aceofspades 10:21 am 11 Apr 13

Grimm said :

Dilandach said :

Incorrect, just like shop owners they can use reasonable force as the situation dictates.

Amusing that all the hardcore keyboard warriors / cop haters would be the first ones to piss their pants and cry for cops the second something happened to them.

And just like shop owners, they do not have any special powers or protection from assault. To detain somebody in that fashion, you must make a citizens arrest, and if you do you had better be damn sure they have done something wrong.

As for your second paragraph, what is wrong with your thought process? Yeah, how dare people expect the police to turn up and not immediately start evidence and witness tampering? Both are also far more serious offences than petty theft. Dickheads like this guy give the police a bad name, and the sooner they are found and booted out, the better. A large portion of the population no longer trust the police at all because of people like him.

I have several mates who are cops and are of the same opinion, but know that if they speak out it will basically end their career. Thats a great culture happening in the organisation tasked with upholding the law and doing the right thing.

+1

Exactly, police officers have created their own bad public relations. There are some that do fine work, but it sometimes does feel like they are the minority.

Grimm 9:41 am 11 Apr 13

Dilandach said :

Incorrect, just like shop owners they can use reasonable force as the situation dictates.

Amusing that all the hardcore keyboard warriors / cop haters would be the first ones to piss their pants and cry for cops the second something happened to them.

And just like shop owners, they do not have any special powers or protection from assault. To detain somebody in that fashion, you must make a citizens arrest, and if you do you had better be damn sure they have done something wrong.

As for your second paragraph, what is wrong with your thought process? Yeah, how dare people expect the police to turn up and not immediately start evidence and witness tampering? Both are also far more serious offences than petty theft. Dickheads like this guy give the police a bad name, and the sooner they are found and booted out, the better. A large portion of the population no longer trust the police at all because of people like him.

I have several mates who are cops and are of the same opinion, but know that if they speak out it will basically end their career. Thats a great culture happening in the organisation tasked with upholding the law and doing the right thing.

aceofspades 9:36 am 11 Apr 13

Tooks said :

aceofspades said :

Tooks said :

aceofspades said :

johnboy said :

Police response now included.

“Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, this can be done online via the AFP website (www.afp.gov.au)”

In other words: Lets put this somewhere that is far less public, we are not so embarrassed and we can cover it up however we want till everyone forgets about it.

What do you expect them to say? “Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, they can do so online via Today Tonight, The Canberra Times, Riot Act, A Current Affair (apologies for mentioning Riot Act with the other three…).

If the OP makes a complaint and isn’t satisfied with the outcome, it can always be reviewed by the ombudsman. I’m sure the Canberra Times would be keen to run a story with an anti-police slant (whether deserved or not) as well.

“Sorry, he f%cked up, he is human too.” It is amazing sometimes how much better that can make somebody feel.

An apology before a complaint has been submitted and the officer in question has a chance to at least tell his side of the story would be grossly unfair and extremely inappropriate. Doing it publicly through a website would be absolutely ludicrous. Surely you understand that?

Yes Tooks, I guess I do. I think the mentality comes from a past era where these forums were non existent and two police officers were able to go back to the station and write there own fictitious version of events in their notebooks and because the same story was written in two police officers notebooks, the fictitious story now becomes gospel. A single citizens story compared to two police officers has no chance of even being considered the truth. I understand that there will be those that will never believe that fine upstanding police officers would ever do such a thing, as I used to until I witnessed it myself. I also guess that there is nothing to say that the citizen is not lying except in this case, why would he? What does he have to gain by making this story up? In my situation, which I really don’t need to go into detail about, I fully understood that police officers are human and we all make mistakes. All I wanted was an admission that mistakes had been made and an apology. If I had received that, then my attitude and opinion now may well be entirely different.

bundah 9:12 am 11 Apr 13

@ Mordd

I’m glad you posted your experience for it’s helped clear up the legal issue of taking images in public spaces particularly for the police who are either ignorant or get some power kick in deliberately intimidating a bystander with their bully boy tactics.As for the security guards being somewhat excessive with their treatment of the young female we need to remind ourselves that they’re generally not employed for their intelligence.While this doesn’t excuse their behaviour it does reflect on the manner in which they often handle situations of this type.While size and intelligence aren’t always mutually exclusive more careful vetting is desirable.

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