10 April 2013

Police officer forces deletion of photos taken in 'public'

| Chris Mordd Richards
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A rather disturbing event occurred this evening that I would like to share with you all and get feedback on.

I was at Woden bus interchange at 6:20pm (9/4/13) and witnessed 3 Westfield security personnel chasing a young girl (approx. 15/16yrs old) through the interchange (the girl was walking fast but not running as such). Curious and with nothing better to do while waiting for my bus I followed them to see what what was going on. The security caught up with the girl at the eastern edge of the interchange and were joined by a 4th Westfield security guard and surrounded the girl preventing her getting away. At this point I didn’t think that was too unusual but thought i’d continue to observe while waiting for my bus.

While watching them the girl made 2 attempts to get past the guards and away from them, and on both occasions one of the guards (the same one both times) grabbed the girl by the arm, and in my opinion, dragged her quite aggressively and violently back into the middle of the circle the guards had formed. At this point I started taking photos on my mobile phone of what was going on as the manner in which the guard wrenched her by the arm seemed to constitute quite excessive force in my opinion and possibly consituted an assault on the girl, who was short and skinny and no match for the burly security personnel.

After about ten minutes 2 police officers approached the scene and I informed them that I was a bystander who had witnessed one of the guards violently wrench the girl by the arm, and was asked to wait to the side while they spoke to the people involved, which I did, standing about 5-6 metres back from the scene and patiently waiting to speak to one of the officers. Eventually I was approached by a Constable Cubbins who informed I could go. I stated I wanted my details recorded as a witness to the possible assault on the girl involved. Constable Cubbins refused to take my details, and then demanded to see the photos I had taken on my phone, obviously informed of this fact by the security guards as I had not mentioned taking photos to the officers when I first approached them myself.

I complied, showing the officer the three photos I had taken, at which point Constable Cubbins ordered me to delete the photos from my phone (note the photos were only of the security guards and girl, not of the police officers themselves, not that this should make a difference though). I initially refused, stating that my understanding was I had every right to have taken the photos and that he did not have the right to order me to delete them.

At this point Constable Cubbins stated that if I did not delete the photos he would confiscate my phone as evidence. Not wanting to lose my phone (although I was sure this was just an intimidation tactic to get me to comply), I informed Constable Cubbins that I would delete the photos as he had demanded – and proceeded to do so – but that I would be following up the next day in regards to this demand, as I believed he had no legal right to force me to do this. I stated for the record my objection to being forced to delete the photos.

At this point Constable Cubbins simply walked off and proceeded to escort the girl towards the police station with the other officer, leaving me with no option but to go and get my bus home, feeling quite intimidated and angry at my perception that Constable Cubbins had no right to have ordered me to delete the photos. Having done some research online now, I believe that I did have every right to have taken the photos, and furthermore that an ACT police officer has no right to order the deletion of said photos or to threaten to confiscate my phone if that threat was given with the sole intent to get me to comply with an illegal instruction from the officer.

The only thing I am not sure about is whether the bus interchange counts as Public or Private property which could have an impact on the legality of the instruction given to me by Constable Cubbins. Given the interchange is owned by the ACT government and accessible to the general public my understanding is this counts as public property but I still need to clarify this properly.

In my opinion it is bad enough that Constable Cubbins refused to take my statement in regards to my alleging an assault had taken place (his response on that was the guards were effecting an arrest, therefore whatever they did was lawful, and that if the girl involved made a complaint about it they would review the bus interchange security footage and therefore my statement was not required), however I am admittedly pretty livid over being forced to delete the photos from my phone, as I believe that is a breach of my civil rights.

I intend to call Legal Aid in the morning and consult with them in regards to what occurred and how (and who) best to make a formal complaint to so that the matter can be investigated, and I welcome any and all opinions on this as to the legalities involved here. Meanwhile I have downloaded some file recovery software and will be attempting to restore the deleted files from my phones SD card – the photos themselves don’t show very much (and my cameras 2MP camera is low quality obviously) but the principle of the matter is at stake here and I would like to recover the photos in case I can use them as evidence in the complaint I can make.

UPDATE 16:42 10/04/13: ACT Policing had this response:

· ACT Policing can confirm officers attended an incident involving two females at Woden bus interchange yesterday.

· Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, this can be done online via the AFP website (www.afp.gov.au)

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Tool said :

Barcham said :

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Trial by media? Ok, so this is the way we now deal with issues of concern. Don’t go through proper process or allow natural justice, expose people, name names on Riot-Act and all is ok?

.

If he’d made a complaint to the AFP it would have gone straight to the bin. Bringing public attention to this kind of stuff is the only way to (occasionally) force action.

I was told to stop filming once in a public place. I was making a DVD of “my life in Canberra” for me dear old Welsh mam, to take back to the UK for her to see where I now live. I was filming the Embassies, as they are rather twee and cute. I had no problems until I tried filming….The US Embassy… Then I was approached by the AFP, and politely told to p!ss off. I remonstrated that no other Embassy has told me to p!ss off, Mr Policeman said, and I quote; “Some people are more paranoid than others.”

WE had a good chuckle, and I told him of my years living in London when the IRA were bombing pubs, funded by Yank cash. He told me, “You can pull great views of this area off Google Earth.”

Nice man.

I didn’t delete the clips of the Yank Embassy I had already shot though.

Tool said :

Barcham said :

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Trial by media? Ok, so this is the way we now deal with issues of concern. Don’t go through proper process or allow natural justice, expose people, name names on Riot-Act and all is ok?

I am going to start recording names of the public servants I see wearing name tags breaching the code of conduct by doing things like drinking on their lunch break on this site, hopefully it will get posted because expressing my concern to anyone else would be ridiculous, good for the goose, good for the gander.

Now now Cunstable Cubbins you’ve been caught out so it’s time to face the music!

Instant Mash said :

And people wonder why the po-po in this town have such a shite reputation.

Except they don’t have a bad reputation in this town at all, and that’s the unfortunate thing about incidents like these (and for the moment, I’ll take the OP’s version of events at face value).

Having a family member who was recently treated by police in a disgraceful and appalling manner, I can tell you it has a really long lasting effect on a person’s perception of police. This family member, who has never been in any trouble whatsover in his adult life, will now always be wary if he comes into contact with police in the future, due to the actions of a few. The concerning thing for me was that he was going to let it go (after some convincing, he’ll now be making a complaint).

Pitchka said :

Sounds like someone has had one to many run ins with the local police.

Run their show like its a mafia? Such as?

Actually, I have had precisely 0 run ins with the local police. I just expect the people entrusted with upholding the law to obey it themselves.

The running it like the mafia comment was in relation to evidence and witness tampering. That was kinda their specialty for a while.

Why do so many d***heads think the police should get a free pass on committing crimes? Defending the actions of the bad ones isn’t helping the good ones out at all.

Instant Mash11:59 am 11 Apr 13

And people wonder why the po-po in this town have such a shite reputation.

I’d almost bet that if their station wasn’t right across the street, they’d likely have told the security blokes to deal with it themselves.

Tool said :

Barcham said :

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Trial by media? Ok, so this is the way we now deal with issues of concern. Don’t go through proper process or allow natural justice, expose people, name names on Riot-Act and all is ok?

I am going to start recording names of the public servants I see wearing name tags breaching the code of conduct by doing things like drinking on their lunch break on this site, hopefully it will get posted because expressing my concern to anyone else would be ridiculous, good for the goose, good for the gander.

Tool, you might like to read the Code of Conduct before pulling a stunt like this. The Code doesn’t prevent public servants from drinking.

Mordd said :

For the record, I do support the right of the security guards to detain the girl for whatever offence she committed, as long as that is done within the bounds of the law. I worked security myself a number of years ago and am not unfamiliar with the situations security guards face, however I am also aware from that as to the limits of what security guards can do, especially when it comes to using appropriate/reasonable force against a suspect, which is why I believe the force I witnessed constituted excessive force.

I am just wondering (genuine, not sarcastic) if you were in the guards shoes, what would you have done differently? Here you have someone who has (assumedly) committed or been an accessory to a crime. She is trying to escape and you need to detain her until police arrive. How do you keep her detained when she is trying to run off? Was it a case of bad technique by the guards?

I work with children and often face a similar predicament but thankfully it is very rare I have to grab a child (only twice in 6 years)

I am 100% with you on the phone/camera issue here, it is the alleged mistreatment of the girl I am still trying to form an opinion on.

Lastly, I smell a Mully…..

Grimm said :

Barcham said :

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Nah, we should just allow police committing serious crimes to continue on their merry way. Sweep it under the rug and let them run their show like it’s the mafia.

Sounds like someone has had one to many run ins with the local police.

Run their show like its a mafia? Such as?

Tool said :

I am going to start recording names of the public servants I see wearing name tags breaching the code of conduct by doing things like drinking on their lunch break on this site…

I might drink on my lunch break, but never on this site!

Grimm said :

Nah, we should just allow police committing serious crimes to continue on their merry way. Sweep it under the rug and let them run their show like it’s the mafia.

So who gets to be Eastman this time around ?

Barcham said :

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Trial by media? Ok, so this is the way we now deal with issues of concern. Don’t go through proper process or allow natural justice, expose people, name names on Riot-Act and all is ok?

I am going to start recording names of the public servants I see wearing name tags breaching the code of conduct by doing things like drinking on their lunch break on this site, hopefully it will get posted because expressing my concern to anyone else would be ridiculous, good for the goose, good for the gander.

Barcham said :

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Nah, we should just allow police committing serious crimes to continue on their merry way. Sweep it under the rug and let them run their show like it’s the mafia.

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

He did the right thing by telling the media. He’s not looking for sympathy, he’s doing his civic duty.

This is why we HAVE media.

You say he should have intervened? He would have achieved nothing other than getting arrested.

Now this story is out there, he did everything right.

Tool said :

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

Tool by name …

Mordd said :

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Why yes, clearly you have the view that the poor young lass had done nothing wrong so why not intervene? Or again are you one who is happy to preach all high and mighty on a fora like this instead of doing something about it. The actual Police Station is across the road, did you think to go and report your concerns to the Sergeant working, or is your conspiracy theory that all police are tuigs, unaccountable, and corrupt? No you whip out that mobile phone, have a sook because you are a pain the ass and do nothing but beat your keyboard looking for sympathy.

Grimm said :

Dilandach said :

Incorrect, just like shop owners they can use reasonable force as the situation dictates.

Amusing that all the hardcore keyboard warriors / cop haters would be the first ones to piss their pants and cry for cops the second something happened to them.

And just like shop owners, they do not have any special powers or protection from assault. To detain somebody in that fashion, you must make a citizens arrest, and if you do you had better be damn sure they have done something wrong.

As for your second paragraph, what is wrong with your thought process? Yeah, how dare people expect the police to turn up and not immediately start evidence and witness tampering? Both are also far more serious offences than petty theft. Dickheads like this guy give the police a bad name, and the sooner they are found and booted out, the better. A large portion of the population no longer trust the police at all because of people like him.

I have several mates who are cops and are of the same opinion, but know that if they speak out it will basically end their career. Thats a great culture happening in the organisation tasked with upholding the law and doing the right thing.

+1

Exactly, police officers have created their own bad public relations. There are some that do fine work, but it sometimes does feel like they are the minority.

Dilandach said :

Incorrect, just like shop owners they can use reasonable force as the situation dictates.

Amusing that all the hardcore keyboard warriors / cop haters would be the first ones to piss their pants and cry for cops the second something happened to them.

And just like shop owners, they do not have any special powers or protection from assault. To detain somebody in that fashion, you must make a citizens arrest, and if you do you had better be damn sure they have done something wrong.

As for your second paragraph, what is wrong with your thought process? Yeah, how dare people expect the police to turn up and not immediately start evidence and witness tampering? Both are also far more serious offences than petty theft. Dickheads like this guy give the police a bad name, and the sooner they are found and booted out, the better. A large portion of the population no longer trust the police at all because of people like him.

I have several mates who are cops and are of the same opinion, but know that if they speak out it will basically end their career. Thats a great culture happening in the organisation tasked with upholding the law and doing the right thing.

Tooks said :

aceofspades said :

Tooks said :

aceofspades said :

johnboy said :

Police response now included.

“Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, this can be done online via the AFP website (www.afp.gov.au)”

In other words: Lets put this somewhere that is far less public, we are not so embarrassed and we can cover it up however we want till everyone forgets about it.

What do you expect them to say? “Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, they can do so online via Today Tonight, The Canberra Times, Riot Act, A Current Affair (apologies for mentioning Riot Act with the other three…).

If the OP makes a complaint and isn’t satisfied with the outcome, it can always be reviewed by the ombudsman. I’m sure the Canberra Times would be keen to run a story with an anti-police slant (whether deserved or not) as well.

“Sorry, he f%cked up, he is human too.” It is amazing sometimes how much better that can make somebody feel.

An apology before a complaint has been submitted and the officer in question has a chance to at least tell his side of the story would be grossly unfair and extremely inappropriate. Doing it publicly through a website would be absolutely ludicrous. Surely you understand that?

Yes Tooks, I guess I do. I think the mentality comes from a past era where these forums were non existent and two police officers were able to go back to the station and write there own fictitious version of events in their notebooks and because the same story was written in two police officers notebooks, the fictitious story now becomes gospel. A single citizens story compared to two police officers has no chance of even being considered the truth. I understand that there will be those that will never believe that fine upstanding police officers would ever do such a thing, as I used to until I witnessed it myself. I also guess that there is nothing to say that the citizen is not lying except in this case, why would he? What does he have to gain by making this story up? In my situation, which I really don’t need to go into detail about, I fully understood that police officers are human and we all make mistakes. All I wanted was an admission that mistakes had been made and an apology. If I had received that, then my attitude and opinion now may well be entirely different.

@ Mordd

I’m glad you posted your experience for it’s helped clear up the legal issue of taking images in public spaces particularly for the police who are either ignorant or get some power kick in deliberately intimidating a bystander with their bully boy tactics.As for the security guards being somewhat excessive with their treatment of the young female we need to remind ourselves that they’re generally not employed for their intelligence.While this doesn’t excuse their behaviour it does reflect on the manner in which they often handle situations of this type.While size and intelligence aren’t always mutually exclusive more careful vetting is desirable.

Tool said :

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

And what would you have had me do instead, physically intervene in the situation, there was nothing I could do other than observe what was occuring, how exactly was I meant to help the girl in any other way? Seriously I think you need to take your meds and try posting again.

Mordd said :

Secondly I emailed an MLA last night to get their opinion on the matter, and they called me back earlier this evening and informed me that a) the bus interchange does count as public property, and b) that given it was public property I had every right to have taken the photos, and c) that the officer did not have any right to order me to delete the photos. They also informed me I must first of all make a complaint to the police professional standards body, and then if I am not satisfied with their response I can then submit a complaint to the ACT Ombudsman who oversees investigations into matters involving ACT policing. I will be drafting the formal complaint to the standards body tomorrow and hope to have it submitted to them by friday for them to investigate.

Good for you! Here’s hoping that the officer concerned is given the opportunity to find gainful employment in a field other than law enforcement.

It astounded me how quick people are to whip out their phones, this is similar to those would be do gooders who will happily video a robbery or an assault and then approach the media like they are a hero. Nnothing quite like hiding behind a lense and passing judgment.

Seriously, if you aren’t willing to help sod off nobody cares about your apparent perception of injustice, if you were spoken to, or treated much the way many of the police and security guards are in their day to day work you would probably be off on stress leave or adopting the ‘how dare you speak to me like that’ adage.

Mordd said :

…I have had a very long day today and am too tired to go into massive detail right now in response to everyone, so I will keep this post short and succint for the moment….

I’m glad you kept it short – can’t wait for the full update later today! 😉

aceofspades said :

Tooks said :

aceofspades said :

johnboy said :

Police response now included.

“Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, this can be done online via the AFP website (www.afp.gov.au)”

In other words: Lets put this somewhere that is far less public, we are not so embarrassed and we can cover it up however we want till everyone forgets about it.

What do you expect them to say? “Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, they can do so online via Today Tonight, The Canberra Times, Riot Act, A Current Affair (apologies for mentioning Riot Act with the other three…).

If the OP makes a complaint and isn’t satisfied with the outcome, it can always be reviewed by the ombudsman. I’m sure the Canberra Times would be keen to run a story with an anti-police slant (whether deserved or not) as well.

“Sorry, he f%cked up, he is human too.” It is amazing sometimes how much better that can make somebody feel.

An apology before a complaint has been submitted and the officer in question has a chance to at least tell his side of the story would be grossly unfair and extremely inappropriate. Doing it publicly through a website would be absolutely ludicrous. Surely you understand that?

obamabinladen12:20 am 11 Apr 13

Firstly why would you bother taking photos of the little piece of scum getting busted? Secondly you should’ve told the cop to suck your you know what!!!

Wow, a lot of comments to respond to and a lively debate over the issues involved from different commentors. I will respond to all the comments/questions tomorrow, however I have had a very long day today and am too tired to go into massive detail right now in response to everyone, so I will keep this post short and succint for the moment.

For the record, I do support the right of the security guards to detain the girl for whatever offence she committed, as long as that is done within the bounds of the law. I worked security myself a number of years ago and am not unfamiliar with the situations security guards face, however I am also aware from that as to the limits of what security guards can do, especially when it comes to using appropriate/reasonable force against a suspect, which is why I believe the force I witnessed constituted excessive force.

Secondly I emailed an MLA last night to get their opinion on the matter, and they called me back earlier this evening and informed me that a) the bus interchange does count as public property, and b) that given it was public property I had every right to have taken the photos, and c) that the officer did not have any right to order me to delete the photos. They also informed me I must first of all make a complaint to the police professional standards body, and then if I am not satisfied with their response I can then submit a complaint to the ACT Ombudsman who oversees investigations into matters involving ACT policing. I will be drafting the formal complaint to the standards body tomorrow and hope to have it submitted to them by friday for them to investigate.

As to the alleged assault on the girl involved, I need to state that the gender of the suspect is irrelevant to me, if it was a young male I would have done exactly the same thing. The only relevance here as far as I am concerned is the physical stature and size of the suspect compared to the security guards, as this affects the question of whether the force used was reasonable or not. For the record the girl did cry out in pain when she was dragged by the security guard, and while I appreciate and support the right of the security to detain her, I do not support them using excessive force in the act of doing so. The suggestion that I was an accomplice or that I am seeking compensation is frankly ludicrous and barely warrants responding to, I was simply a curious bystander, nothing more, nothing less.

From the advice I have gotten today from the MLA’s office, there are 2 offences which have occured. Firstly the refusal to take my statement, regardless of the officers personal opinion on the appropriateness of the force – however the issue is secondary to the matter of the forced deletion of the photos for me personally, but I will be raising both matters with the standards body (and ombudsman if necessary) as I am informed that both matters are a serious breach of power by the officer involved and therefore warrant investigating. I named and shamed so to speak as I don’t believe I have any obligation to protect his identity given his treatment of me, and ACT police officers need to understand that they can and should be held accountable for actions they take in the line of duty.

I will post again tomorrow with a more detailed response to some of the specific comments that warrant responding to that I haven’t already addressed in this post, and will keep you all informed of the progress of this matter as it develops. Thankyou to everyone who commented, positive or negative, I am not surprised some commentors wish to dismiss the matter out of hand or attempt to portray me as some green voting, anti-authority trouble maker – this is RiotACT after all – but I would expect those commentors to understand that if they support the right of the security to detain her for an alleged crime and have the law upheld, that they would also support the law being upheld in terms of the conduct and force used as well as the conduct of the police officer in question. If you can’t see the inherent contradiction in saying that the guards can do their job to enforce the law but its ok for them to break the law in the process of doing that, well then theres not much I can really say to that other than you need to go take a look in the mirror and ask yourself why you think its ok for an authority figure to break the law in the process of enforcing a different law and not see this as a complete contradiction.

Sandman said :

I’m waiting for the day where we have a 2nd amendment declaring our right to bear camera’s. It’s a bit sad that societies first response to a situation is to whip out a camera and film it.

Wait, are you saying that the op should have shot the guards?

Grimm said :

Well, the minute the Westfield rent-a-cops touched her, they assaulted her. They are security guards, not police. They have no legal ability to use force to detain somebody. The police are supposed to uphold the law, so should have arrested any of them that touched her. Instead, the officer chose to break the law by tampering with evidence and covering up an assault by intimidating a witness.

Do us all a favor and make the complaint. We need less cops like this. They are the ones giving the other poor bastards just doing their job, and doing it the right way, a bad name. The police seems to have become a bastion for insecure little boys and criminals over the years. These days I wouldn’t trust one as far as I could throw them, simply because this kind of behavior seems to be accepted and even protected by the whole police force. If Constable Cubbins partner didn’t report him, he is just as guilty.

Incorrect, just like shop owners they can use reasonable force as the situation dictates.

Amusing that all the hardcore keyboard warriors / cop haters would be the first ones to piss their pants and cry for cops the second something happened to them.

Sandman said :

I’m waiting for the day where we have a 2nd amendment declaring our right to bear camera’s.

I’m not sure if I’d like to use a bear camera.

http://oddstuffmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/334.jpg

I’m waiting for the day where we have a 2nd amendment declaring our right to bear camera’s. It’s a bit sad that societies first response to a situation is to whip out a camera and film it.

When detaining someone who you believe has committed a crime, you are allowed to use whatever force reasonable. Until you are in such a situation I don’t think you can say that you would have acted any differently than the security guards. I believe that police officers intent here was to stop you from making a complaint about someone who was just trying to do the right thing. Maybe people on here are not the sort of people who would go out of their way to help. However considering what people said about the man who did not try to stop the person who robbed an old lady, I would hope that some of you would know what this is like. People trying to do the right thing should not be punished for it.

DrKoresh said :

DUB said :

I knew that you will have a problem with white man’s opinion. You’d better go and greet your relatives, they’ve arrived in Deutsche Bank donated boat yesterday, I hear, all 66 of them. He-he.
Don’t waste your time on me. 🙂

Well, that was… incomprehensible, can anyone else make sense of this gibberish?

I’m afraid don’t speak simian 🙁

I’m afraid that approach may not work Doc.
If you keep that up, I shall accuse you of not being constructive enough with your comments just as I was accused in the Evatt cats thread.
Frivolity is to be frowned upon and only comments worthy of Einsteinian postulation should be allowed…

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

what do you think you’re doing, pig
do you really give a fig, pig
and what’s your favourite sort of gig, pig
barry manilow
or the black and white minstrel show

BOKKO!
Thanks People’s Poet! Now the pigs won’t hassle us now on the street anymore.

(That takes me back to my youth! Things were so much simpler then)

he should have videotaped the thing to give context and he should have gone to the police station immediately and asked to speak to someone in charge about what happened.

bd84 said :

The only other reason I see you want to keep it is because the officer told you to delete it and you dislike authority and want a bit of attention from other people who really have no common sense.

That’s a big jump in logic, I think. Unless you are deliberately attempting to discredit the OP.

The real question here is, what is her right when an officer of the law demands that a photograph she took in public is to be deleted.

Furthermore, why was a police officer, knowing the right of an individual to take photos in public places (other than places deemed as terrorist risk) be asking the public to delete the photo?

I’m suddenly thinking of Trafalgar Square Riot (poll tax riot).
AKA POLICE RIOT.

This is a police message for the press.
Would you kind leave the area and leave the people to disperse on their own accord.
You are causing more trouble here than the people who are here to do the…???
Would the press, press kindly leave the area.

Tooks said :

aceofspades said :

johnboy said :

Police response now included.

“Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, this can be done online via the AFP website (www.afp.gov.au)”

In other words: Lets put this somewhere that is far less public, we are not so embarrassed and we can cover it up however we want till everyone forgets about it.

What do you expect them to say? “Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, they can do so online via Today Tonight, The Canberra Times, Riot Act, A Current Affair (apologies for mentioning Riot Act with the other three…).

If the OP makes a complaint and isn’t satisfied with the outcome, it can always be reviewed by the ombudsman. I’m sure the Canberra Times would be keen to run a story with an anti-police slant (whether deserved or not) as well.

“Sorry, he f%cked up, he is human too.” It is amazing sometimes how much better that can make somebody feel.

The Traineediplomat8:16 pm 10 Apr 13

DUB said :

DrKoresh said :

What a delightful piece of work you are, kindly go play in traffic.

I knew that you will have a problem with white man’s opinion. You’d better go and greet your relatives, they’ve arrived in Deutsche Bank donated boat yesterday, I hear, all 66 of them. He-he.
Don’t waste your time on me. 🙂

Methinks you should stop huffing petrol based products and make a valuable contribution to society.

The Traineediplomat8:14 pm 10 Apr 13

Pics or it didn’t happen…..

I’m so hilarious

Call Blumers.

Well, the minute the Westfield rent-a-cops touched her, they assaulted her. They are security guards, not police. They have no legal ability to use force to detain somebody. The police are supposed to uphold the law, so should have arrested any of them that touched her. Instead, the officer chose to break the law by tampering with evidence and covering up an assault by intimidating a witness.

Do us all a favor and make the complaint. We need less cops like this. They are the ones giving the other poor bastards just doing their job, and doing it the right way, a bad name. The police seems to have become a bastion for insecure little boys and criminals over the years. These days I wouldn’t trust one as far as I could throw them, simply because this kind of behavior seems to be accepted and even protected by the whole police force. If Constable Cubbins partner didn’t report him, he is just as guilty.

He should have taken your name and address and seized your phone as evidence until it could be downloaded by computer forensics. You would then have been provided with a receipt for the seizure.

Would the OP have been happy with that outcome?

I can understand why people don’t like getting their actions videoed photographed as the first part seems to get cut off and the rest ends up on the news or youtube.

I personally couldn’t care less if someone videos/photographs me at work.

bd84 said :

You’re obviously one of those people that would think the only reasonable force is the guards asking the girl really nicely to please stop trying to run away after she stole something. Your children are/will be similar to the girl that was arrested, because you will never provide them any boundaries and will try and be their best friend.

While we’re making ludicrous and unfair assumptions, can I suggest that you obviously only have one testicle and enjoy getting intimate with barnyard animals? You’re more than welcome to opine that the security were justified in restraining this alleged shoplifter, if so I’d agree with you. As it stands, you’re obviously a small minded man filled with impotent rage.

Roundhead89 said :

If I knew Constable Cubbins I’d buy him a beer. If I was in the force I’d treat namby pamby do-gooders trying to help little female shoplifters abscond the same way. So typical of left wing Canberra under a Socialist government. Reminds me of when I was in the PS and bitches would file formal complaints saying I gave them a dirty look or I was rude and uncooperative when I wouldn’t do their Top Secret photocopying because I only had Confidential clearance.

I don’t want to make assumptions about your domineering mother or your unfaithful wife, so why don’t you just tell us what gave life to your childish hatred of women?

OP just comes across as a rather pompous twit. Security must have had some reason to detain her and if she had nothing to hide why didnt she wait for the Police to arrive and sort it out? Are they expected to politely ask her to remain with them when she attempts to run away? No doubt if she was found guilty of assault and robbery youd be happy for the court to just hand down a good telling off. Yes the Plod was out of order but your actions were just as self important as the Officers’.

You’re obviously one of those people that would think the only reasonable force is the guards asking the girl really nicely to please stop trying to run away after she stole something. Your children are/will be similar to the girl that was arrested, because you will never provide them any boundaries and will try and be their best friend.

The guards had every right to restrain the girl by reasonable force. Grabbing her and dragging her back into custody is reasonable. The rest of your post is mostly irrelevant.

The right of the officer to delete the photo is debatable. If the girl was thought to be a minor, then Italy be a valid reason for her privacy. But the officer probably should have explained that.

Therefore, you took a photo for no real particular reason, so there was no real need to keep it anyway. Unless you were going home to get your jollies over it. The only other reason I see you want to keep it is because the officer told you to delete it and you dislike authority and want a bit of attention from other people who really have no common sense.

Suck it up princess.

aceofspades said :

johnboy said :

Police response now included.

“Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, this can be done online via the AFP website (www.afp.gov.au)”

In other words: Lets put this somewhere that is far less public, we are not so embarrassed and we can cover it up however we want till everyone forgets about it.

What do you expect them to say? “Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, they can do so online via Today Tonight, The Canberra Times, Riot Act, A Current Affair (apologies for mentioning Riot Act with the other three…).

If the OP makes a complaint and isn’t satisfied with the outcome, it can always be reviewed by the ombudsman. I’m sure the Canberra Times would be keen to run a story with an anti-police slant (whether deserved or not) as well.

Woody Mann-Caruso said :

what do you think you’re doing, pig
do you really give a fig, pig
and what’s your favourite sort of gig, pig
barry manilow
or the black and white minstrel show

I have to agree. If ever there was a job for the People’s Poet….

johnboy said :

Police response now included.

“Should the writer of this material wish to submit a complaint, this can be done online via the AFP website (www.afp.gov.au)”

In other words: Lets put this somewhere that is far less public, we are not so embarrassed and we can cover it up however we want till everyone forgets about it.

If I knew Constable Cubbins I’d buy him a beer. If I was in the force I’d treat namby pamby do-gooders trying to help little female shoplifters abscond the same way. So typical of left wing Canberra under a Socialist government. Reminds me of when I was in the PS and bitches would file formal complaints saying I gave them a dirty look or I was rude and uncooperative when I wouldn’t do their Top Secret photocopying because I only had Confidential clearance.

Police response now included.

johnboy said :

If I hadn’t personally experienced this very same behaviour I would not have treated this story the same way.

I’m not sure why police try to pull people on about taking photos in a public place. It baffles me. No doubt having someone taking pics or videos while you work would be irritating, but really, why would you care?

Tetranitrate said :

Tooks said :

Security guards can arrest someone using reasonable force when they believe an offence has been committed. If the girls want to make a complaint of assault (I bet my car they don’t) then they can do so.

It’s probably worth noting that security guards don’t actually have any unique powers of arrest and that it’s simply a citizens arrest.

Correct. They have the same powers of arrest as every other citizen (although it’s not actually called a citizen’s arrest).

Power of arrest without warrant by other persons
(1) A person who is not a police officer may, without warrant, arrest another person if he or she believes on reasonable grounds that the other person is committing or has just committed an offence.
(2) A person who arrests another person under subsection (1) shall, as soon as practicable after the arrest, arrange for the other person, and any property found on the other person, to be delivered into the custody of a police officer.

aceofspades said :

Tooks said :

I haven’t read any of the replies (and nor will I) so apologies if I’m covering old ground. Unless I’m missing something, you have every right to take photos in a public place. Of whatever you want. You don’t have to delete photos nor can you be forced to.

Security guards can arrest someone using reasonable force when they believe an offence has been committed. If the girls want to make a complaint of assault (I bet my car they don’t) then they can do so.

I don’t agree with you naming the officer here, but I’d be interested to hear the outcome of this one. Keep us posted.

I totally agree with “naming the officer here”. Name and shame and name when they do a good job too, they should be full well be used to the idea they are in full public view and scrutiny with everything they do.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that point. I think it’s inappropriate given that person has no right of reply and we only know one side of the story.

If I hadn’t personally experienced this very same behaviour I would not have treated this story the same way.

Pitchka said :

bundah said :

There are no shortage of cops who resort to intimidation to get what they want.My response to some of them,in the past, has been to basically tell them to go fcuk themselves if they’re being unreasonable.Oddly enough it’s been quite effective as i’ve never been arrested for standing my ground.

What a load of s***… (in relation to telling a cop to f off with no reprocussions).

Ok Pitchka i can’t pull the wool over your eyes,slight exaggeration.On one occasion i was pulled over late at night because the number plate light was blown.Traffic cop says i think i’ll make you go over the pits.I replied with ‘you’ve got to be fcuking kidding the car has recently been rebuilt and is in excellent condition apart from a blown bulb so that’s total overkill bullshit'(yes they were the words i uttered).So after an argument lasting almost 5 minutes pushing the boundaries and angrily defending my position he changed his mind and told me to get it fixed and that was the end of it.

johnboy said :

The main use of Google+ on my phone is it automatically fires the pictures into google’s mighty servers (private until I decide otherwise)

Just you, Google and the FBI.

Tooks said :

I haven’t read any of the replies (and nor will I) so apologies if I’m covering old ground. Unless I’m missing something, you have every right to take photos in a public place. Of whatever you want. You don’t have to delete photos nor can you be forced to.

Security guards can arrest someone using reasonable force when they believe an offence has been committed. If the girls want to make a complaint of assault (I bet my car they don’t) then they can do so.

I don’t agree with you naming the officer here, but I’d be interested to hear the outcome of this one. Keep us posted.

I totally agree with “naming the officer here”. Name and shame and name when they do a good job too, they should be full well be used to the idea they are in full public view and scrutiny with everything they do.

johnboy said :

We’ve put a request for comment in to the police media team. Will let you know what we get back.

They will probably put out a statement entitled

Police seeking witnesses to the police’s destruction of evidence held by a witness

But seriously, that’s a trespass to chattles and you should sue the pricks.

So lately we’ve had a post from someone who gets all uppity when witnessing security guards doing their job and detaining a probable criminal who has tried to abscond numerous times,

someone who doesn’t like being “badgered” by beggars when out doing their shopping and would like the police to move these people on as they don’t want to be bothered by the riff raff and it’s too much trouble to just say no thanks,

and someone who has a whinge to Dendy Cinemas because they believe the world revolves around them and they are special because they have had children and should therefore be entitled to free things.

It’s no wonder the rest of Australia thinks Canberra is full of pretentious wankers.

Dilandach said :

Security Guards and Owners have the right to use reasonable force in what the circumstances dictate. The circumstances described certainly seem to be a reasonable use of force.

Your perceived ‘rights’ does not give you carte blanche to go shoplifting to your hearts content and not worry about the store detective or security catching up with you and placing you in a room to be interviewed until the cops show.

And here in lies to problem. If there are four or five “large” security goons, and one smallish girl, reasonable force would mean they grab her once, then hold her, perhaps placing her in a room. It is hard to imagine a reason for them to grab her, move her back into a circle, then let go again…?

Not saying they were wrong, but also not saying they were right. More importantly, it hardly seems that the police dude was very interested in hearing the story before deciding in favour of the Security guys, and in addition to that, he wanted no pesky photos existing (presumably in case he was wrong in his initial assessment).

“We’ve put a request for comment in to the police media team. Will let you know what we get back.”

Thanks johnboy

Tetranitrate3:06 pm 10 Apr 13

Tooks said :

Security guards can arrest someone using reasonable force when they believe an offence has been committed. If the girls want to make a complaint of assault (I bet my car they don’t) then they can do so.

It’s probably worth noting that security guards don’t actually have any unique powers of arrest and that it’s simply a citizens arrest.

johnboy said :

We’ve put a request for comment in to the police media team. Will let you know what we get back.

Onya Johnboy….

I haven’t read any of the replies (and nor will I) so apologies if I’m covering old ground. Unless I’m missing something, you have every right to take photos in a public place. Of whatever you want. You don’t have to delete photos nor can you be forced to.

Security guards can arrest someone using reasonable force when they believe an offence has been committed. If the girls want to make a complaint of assault (I bet my car they don’t) then they can do so.

I don’t agree with you naming the officer here, but I’d be interested to hear the outcome of this one. Keep us posted.

We’ve put a request for comment in to the police media team. Will let you know what we get back.

poetix said :

She is not a convicted criminal escaping from prison.

No, she’s someone that was most likely suspected of criminal activity attempting to escape and avoid the consequences.

poetix said :

I don’t assume that those in authority (or those wearing a security guard’s uniform) always do the right thing; neither do I assume that they are always in the wrong. It is important that these things are monitored though, which is what OP was trying to ensure happened. This story is quite worrying.

Apart from the camera incident there is nothing worrying about it. I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if the OP has taken some liberties with the truth in regards to the guards preventing the girl from leaving. If she was really harmed there would have been cries for help, a scream or even an ambulance would have been called. None of that happened.

Im guessing the police officer in question, based on this story, may well have looked like a koala..

Dilandach said :

poetix said :

‘Something wrong’ covers everything from pilfering a lipstick to murder. Four men violently detaining a young girl sounds excessive to me if it was just a minor theft. That goes far beyond merely ‘making an arrest’. (It’s obvious that nothing too hideous happened, or we would have heard by now. We don’t know that she had committed any offence at all.)

Guilty conscience? How do we know that?

If I was wrongfully detained, I’d try and get away, and I would have every right to do so.

I’d be seeing a lawyer very soon after that.

The law on the photographs is a lot clearer, although arguably, the freedom involved is less important.

‘Violently detaining’ Whatever, I suppose someone pointing a finger at you is assault too?

If you were pulled up at the exit to a shop, knew you had done nothing wrong and asked to have a word or check your bag would you pull your Captain Freedom moves to try and get away? Or would you be rational and let them have a word or check your bag? One is just an unnecessary crapfight for all involved based on misplaced principles and the other is a 30 second check and a wave off.

If asked to show my bag I would do so, if it was done politely. If it was done rudely I might refuse. However that is quite different from what was described by the OP, who speaks of one of the men ‘violently and aggressively’ ‘wrenching’ the girl’s arm on more than one occasion.

Being asked to show a bag is quite different from a girl (who may be legally a child) being treated like this. She is not a convicted criminal escaping from prison.

I don’t assume that those in authority (or those wearing a security guard’s uniform) always do the right thing; neither do I assume that they are always in the wrong. It is important that these things are monitored though, which is what OP was trying to ensure happened. This story is quite worrying.

Here_and_Now said :

Will The RiotACT be girding their journalistic loins and approaching the police for a statement?

They might send a cursory email…. 🙂

poetix said :

‘Something wrong’ covers everything from pilfering a lipstick to murder. Four men violently detaining a young girl sounds excessive to me if it was just a minor theft. That goes far beyond merely ‘making an arrest’. (It’s obvious that nothing too hideous happened, or we would have heard by now. We don’t know that she had committed any offence at all.)

Guilty conscience? How do we know that?

If I was wrongfully detained, I’d try and get away, and I would have every right to do so.

I’d be seeing a lawyer very soon after that.

The law on the photographs is a lot clearer, although arguably, the freedom involved is less important.

‘Violently detaining’ Whatever, I suppose someone pointing a finger at you is assault too?

If you were pulled up at the exit to a shop, knew you had done nothing wrong and asked to have a word or check your bag would you pull your Captain Freedom moves to try and get away? Or would you be rational and let them have a word or check your bag? One is just an unnecessary crapfight for all involved based on misplaced principles and the other is a 30 second check and a wave off.

Here_and_Now12:48 pm 10 Apr 13

Will The RiotACT be girding their journalistic loins and approaching the police for a statement?

joingler said :

… As someone pointed out, security guards don’t chase people for no reason. If she had done something wrong, they have every right to do what they did to her. And given she was trying to get away from them, suggests to me a guilty conscience (not a certainty but generally a good give away)

‘Something wrong’ covers everything from pilfering a lipstick to murder. Four men violently detaining a young girl sounds excessive to me if it was just a minor theft. That goes far beyond merely ‘making an arrest’. (It’s obvious that nothing too hideous happened, or we would have heard by now. We don’t know that she had committed any offence at all.)

Guilty conscience? How do we know that? If I was wrongfully detained, I’d try and get away, and I would have every right to do so.

I’d be seeing a lawyer very soon after that.

The law on the photographs is a lot clearer, although arguably, the freedom involved is less important.

DUB said :

I knew that you will have a problem with white man’s opinion. You’d better go and greet your relatives, they’ve arrived in Deutsche Bank donated boat yesterday, I hear, all 66 of them. He-he.
Don’t waste your time on me. 🙂

Well, that was… incomprehensible, can anyone else make sense of this gibberish? I’m afraid don’t speak simian 🙁

Masquara said :

thebrownstreak69 said :

Interesting. The police are clearly out of line here. Make sure you keep us updated on what happens.

The photos would be recoverable despite deletion, surely (remember the Dianne Brimble photos? They were recovered from a phone or camera). I would think you could insist that the police pay to have them recovered. Mind you, if you do make any type of formal complaint, the police will harrass you for life I would think …

Question is: are they any good, these photos? It’s a crap 2 MP camera, no longer daylight savings, so at 1820 hrs it will be fairly dark, even if there are lights at Interchange, photos will be sooooo sh1t and grainy, that when you shoot a pic from a certain angle, and it may look like security had a bukkake party with a girl. No?

DrKoresh said :

What a delightful piece of work you are, kindly go play in traffic.

I knew that you will have a problem with white man’s opinion. You’d better go and greet your relatives, they’ve arrived in Deutsche Bank donated boat yesterday, I hear, all 66 of them. He-he.
Don’t waste your time on me. 🙂

thebrownstreak69 said :

Interesting. The police are clearly out of line here. Make sure you keep us updated on what happens.

The photos would be recoverable despite deletion, surely (remember the Dianne Brimble photos? They were recovered from a phone or camera). I would think you could insist that the police pay to have them recovered. Mind you, if you do make any type of formal complaint, the police will harrass you for life I would think …

dtc said :

Really? there are plenty of false imprisonment cases running in the courts and decided by the courts that say you are wrong. Just because a person ‘in power’ is doing something doesnt mean that person ‘in power’ is right.

Really? Lets see some from the past couple of years were someone has won a false imprisonment civil case. Security Guards and Owners have the right to use reasonable force in what the circumstances dictate. The circumstances described certainly seem to be a reasonable use of force.

Your perceived ‘rights’ does not give you carte blanche to go shoplifting to your hearts content and not worry about the store detective or security catching up with you and placing you in a room to be interviewed until the cops show.

DUB said :

How do we know that you weren’t girl’s accomplice? Sounds like you will use any opportunity to get a compensation claim ( be it a witness to “assault” of your accomplice, or due to “police brutality). And you hold personal grudge against Constable Cubbins.

“At this point Constable Cubbins stated that if I did not delete the photos he would confiscate my phone as evidence. Not wanting to lose my phone…”, do you have some disturbing pics on your phone, that may be of interest to police?

My advice-get a job, buy a car, get a better phone, stop voting Green .And toughen up.

What a delightful piece of work you are, kindly go play in traffic.

There is software that lets you recover deleted files
Handy recovery is awesome, see if you can get those files back.

The main use of Google+ on my phone is it automatically fires the pictures into google’s mighty servers (private until I decide otherwise)

Woody Mann-Caruso11:49 am 10 Apr 13

what do you think you’re doing, pig
do you really give a fig, pig
and what’s your favourite sort of gig, pig
barry manilow
or the black and white minstrel show

DUB said :

How do we know that you weren’t girl’s accomplice? Sounds like you will use any opportunity to get a compensation claim ( be it a witness to “assault” of your accomplice, or due to “police brutality). And you hold personal grudge against Constable Cubbins.

“At this point Constable Cubbins stated that if I did not delete the photos he would confiscate my phone as evidence. Not wanting to lose my phone…”, do you have some disturbing pics on your phone, that may be of interest to police?

My advice-get a job, buy a car, get a better phone, stop voting Green .And toughen up.

hahaha….accomplice. that’s gold…whenever i think i have thought through alternatives, someone comes up with something different. actually sounds like a nifty trick (and probably one that happens more than we think nowadays)

That’s a pretty crappy situation you were in. Would you mind providing an update on what you did and the result, if/when you get one?

Yes, you’re allowed to take photos in a public place and a bus interchange (or train station, etc.) is a public place (a mall is not – even though it is open to the public, it is owned by a private company). I’m not sure that you’re allowed to specifically focus on one person without their permission (though this may only be relevant if you intend to publish images where the person is recognisable in the image, or you use the images for commercial purposes), and you’re certainly not allowed to make a nuisance of yourself and you’re not allowed to take photos of Defence property without permission!

I think if a Police officer asked me to delete any photos taken in a public place, I’d be asking on what grounds he wanted them deleted – wouldn’t he need a warrant to order you to delete photos, or even to ask you to show them to him? And if the security guard hasn’t done anything wrong, why should he fear a couple of photos? In short, you should take this matter up further with someone high up in the Police, even just to get someone who knows what they’re talking about to give you a definitive statement of what you can and can’t do, and whether Const. Cubbins has incorrectly advised you (in which case, he/she should also receive some feedback from his superiors).

Personally, with no information about why they were chasing said young lady, I’d probably naturally side with the security guards in an incident like that because the most likely reason they’d be chasing her would be that they’re trying to apprehend her for shoplifting, and when shoplifters aren’t apprehended, it’s you and I that end up wearing the costs (probably the next time you shop).

The more I hear/read, the less inclined I’d be to offer a statement (any any information other than what I absolutely had to) to any police officer(s) at the incident. If you really believe the young lady in question has been mistreated, keep it to yourself for the time and make a report later at the local police station – in most cases you probably wouldn’t even need to front up, you could report something like that initially over the phone, or even online.

johnboy said :

Having been here myself I can assure the policeman was making an arse of himself.

Email the ombudsman saying you wish to make a complaint about it.

Trust me the ombudsman takes this very seriously and the public needs to keep pushing back on it.

That.

This is appalling and probably illegal behaviour and needs to be followed up. Write to the Minister too. Thanks for letting us know what this thug in a uniform is doing.

Constable Cubbins sounds like what my mates and I like to refer to as a “Sergeant Small”. coppers who like to abuse their authority to intimidate members of the public. It’s been well established that it’s perfectly legal to record police and police proceedings that occur in public and I don’t see how it’s possible for the Constable to be confused on the issue, he must know that what he did was illegal and an abuse of power. Please do follow this up, OP, we don’t need thugs and bullies like that in our police force.

When I take a photo on my phone, it automatically gets stored on my memory card as well as the actual phone (handy in everyday life).

Anyways, I would trust the guards that they were doing the right thing. As someone pointed out, security guards don’t chase people for no reason. If she had done something wrong, they have every right to do what they did to her. And given she was trying to get away from them, suggests to me a guilty conscience (not a certainty but generally a good give away)

I fail to understand why you would take photos but I also fail to understand why they would ask you to delete them. Perhaps because the girl was under 18? I don’t know if there are any such laws but to me it’s the only explanation that could defend the police officer.

How do we know that you weren’t girl’s accomplice? Sounds like you will use any opportunity to get a compensation claim ( be it a witness to “assault” of your accomplice, or due to “police brutality). And you hold personal grudge against Constable Cubbins.

“At this point Constable Cubbins stated that if I did not delete the photos he would confiscate my phone as evidence. Not wanting to lose my phone…”, do you have some disturbing pics on your phone, that may be of interest to police?

My advice-get a job, buy a car, get a better phone, stop voting Green .And toughen up.

bundah said :

There are no shortage of cops who resort to intimidation to get what they want.My response to some of them,in the past, has been to basically tell them to go fcuk themselves if they’re being unreasonable.Oddly enough it’s been quite effective as i’ve never been arrested for standing my ground.

What a load of s***… (in relation to telling a cop to f off with no reprocussions).

Rawhide Kid Part310:34 am 10 Apr 13

What happens when you take a photo of an incident with your smart phone and you also happen to have access to the “Cloud” with software that uploads every photo you take instantly and downloads a copy to all your other devices? Are they going to demand you delete all these as well? I think not.

Dilandach said :

While I agree you’re free to take photos as you please (to within reason) I don’t agree with attempting to do the girl any favours by attempting to white knight for her. Security Guards don’t pick out random people to go after and call the police on.

When dealing with people who have done the wrong thing, they’re not likely to be cooperative in sticking around to face the repercussions. Is it a case of you thinking ‘female = delicate flower’ with your instinctive feelings kicking in over what you perceived as her bad treatment?

Unless they visibly broke her arm, pulled it out of the socket or caused her to scream out in pain. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with what the guards did. Their job.

Really? there are plenty of false imprisonment cases running in the courts and decided by the courts that say you are wrong. Just because a person ‘in power’ is doing something doesnt mean that person ‘in power’ is right.

I kinda hope one day a cop tries this kinda crap with me so I can say no… But I am guessing they are pretty good at their job (reading peoples body language etc), and so can tell pretty quickly if the person is going to comply or not..

Here is a little light reading for you.
http://4020.net/words/photorights.php

As I understand it, the girl WAS assaulted, but there are many grey areas around being detained.

It may be complicated by the fact the girl is a juvenile, and the identities of juveniles are protected (not just suspected/convicted offenders, but children generally – you wouldn’t want people taking pictures of children without parental permission). But if this was the reason, the police officer should have explained this to you.

IP

Actually my understanding is the ACT does not have NSW’s protections against photographing children.

thebrownstreak6910:23 am 10 Apr 13

Interesting. The police are clearly out of line here. Make sure you keep us updated on what happens.

Can’t say I feel mightily indignant about a presumed shoplifter being firmly restrained after trying to make a break for it, twice. Had they punched her, I’d be concerned, but yanking back a suspect who’s not getting the message is not up there with assault in my books. I certainly don’t think I would then intercept a police officer and complain about security and raise issues of assault associated with such restraint. Overkeen, and arguably trivial, intercession on behalf of a suspected wrongdoer just makes the job of law enforcement more tedious and will piss off those expected to maintain order, as is evidently the case here.

Having said that, whether a bus exchange is considered public space (I would assume so) and whether police have the authority to demand the deletion of pictures taken in public space is a different issue and I would be interested in seeing a definitive answer on this.

dannybear said :

You can take a photograph of anything in a public place, and anything on private property till you are instructed not to, even on private property the image remains your property and nobody has the legal right to make you destroy it, in some circumstances this would even be regarded as destruction of evidence which could carry a prison sentence or fine. I can’t guide you on where to go from here but you were completely within your rights to take photographs.

Just to clarify nobody can tell you to stop taking pictures on public property.

Mike Bessenger10:08 am 10 Apr 13

This happened to me about 5 years ago. I had just missed a car roll and crash into a house (by about 20 seconds). Being the first on the scene I assisted the woman trapped in the car until the fire and ambulance arrived. After she was extracted I thought I’d take myself a ‘trophy’ photo of the car at this point a police officer in one of those XR6 turbo utes (funny enough he was wearing his leather pants) demanded I delete the photo, I just laughed, he threatened that he could arrest me at which point I said that ‘he should be thanking me for assisting the woman and calling the fire/ambulance instead of harassing me, if he felt the need to arrest me then that would be the action required’. He just walked off.
I appreciate the majority of the police force, but there are many that just need to get off their high horse and get on with their job.

You can take a photograph of anything in a public place, and anything on private property till you are instructed not to, even on private property the image remains your property and nobody has the legal right to make you destroy it, in some circumstances this would even be regarded as destruction of evidence which could carry a prison sentence or fine. I can’t guide you on where to go from here but you were completely within your rights to take photographs.

if you haven’t used the phone much and it can be mounted as a USB device then maybe adroit photo recovery is for you

At this point Constable Cubbins stated that if I did not delete the photos he would confiscate my phone as evidence.

An officer stating that he is intending to take your phone/photo as evidence is a bit baloney, given that he’d initially asked you to delete it. But that’s the tactic they employ to bully the general public.

The trick is to immediately upload your photos off the phone. (trick of the trade for some journos I’m told). And of course they DON’T NEED TO KNOW that you already have copies of the photos elsewhere.

As for public places and the right to take photographs – damn right you are.

wow….while i am sure the girl did something wrong and i am sick of a culture that encourages people to do what they want without fear/expectation of reprisal

but the way the police officer treated you is what shocks me…asking you to delete the photos and then saying if you don’t that they’d confiscate your phone…yeah, i’d make a complaint about that

While I agree you’re free to take photos as you please (to within reason) I don’t agree with attempting to do the girl any favours by attempting to white knight for her. Security Guards don’t pick out random people to go after and call the police on.

When dealing with people who have done the wrong thing, they’re not likely to be cooperative in sticking around to face the repercussions. Is it a case of you thinking ‘female = delicate flower’ with your instinctive feelings kicking in over what you perceived as her bad treatment?

Unless they visibly broke her arm, pulled it out of the socket or caused her to scream out in pain. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with what the guards did. Their job.

There are no shortage of cops who resort to intimidation to get what they want.My response to some of them,in the past, has been to basically tell them to go fcuk themselves if they’re being unreasonable.Oddly enough it’s been quite effective as i’ve never been arrested for standing my ground.

Having been here myself I can assure the policeman was making an arse of himself.

Email the ombudsman saying you wish to make a complaint about it.

Trust me the ombudsman takes this very seriously and the public needs to keep pushing back on it.

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