Putting Light Rail back on the Public Agenda (Meeting Notification)

about the potential to do this, including whether we would want to include the spreadsheet as part of our submission to the ACT Government.
Mr Hargraeves: What a Gem!
“We also offered to help Vicki with the development of a Liberal Party policy statement on Light Rail.”

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACTLightRail/msearch?query=Vicki+Dunne&submit=Search&charset=windows-1252

Now the Labor Party knows. Confidentiallity. No canvassing of release the genie beforehand

Ah Jonathon,

Sorry about your Granddad

LRC has decided to open to the public all previous discussions of the LRC. They are all on the public record now and no doubt have been bot- trawled by the likes of Google. It is a regrettable decision, one that I was not happy with.

Also a factor of my leaving the group is that the LRC has debated and only changed reluctantly the inclusion of the word “could”, that the first line that light rail should be built is to Defense HQ. You can say what you like but I am sure that it will be very difficult for anyone ‘new’ to change that view.

AS you are well aware in this thread, I am on public record (well not totally because access to my alternative proposal requires membership of the LRC) on where and how light rail should be built. It differs from yours and the LRC. I knew that that debate would not have got a fair viewing in the ‘closed-shop’ of LRC. Riot-Act provides a different and wider avenue of debate.

As for theories etc: yes it is now very clear that gcc and LRC have/had the same executive membership and that many of the aims/words on light rail are the same. That is a fact and on public record. And until a couple of days ago I did not know that the ‘executive’ of LRC are members of the current gcc committee. As for being Gungahlin centric, well if LRC executive was more representative of members from all over the region I would not have said that.

Next much more importantly, Damien has breached so many privacy obligations and/or laws by passing on to you and you then publicly disclosing a private email behind him and me. On that point alone I would advise anyone to think carefully of joining the LRC.

Lastly, if you post on Riot-Act be prepared to be challenged as a few others besides me have already done re your plans.

I meant the last line to read:

“So perhaps Pandy, those that live in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones…. so what are YOU trying to hide?

I have been interstate for the past few days, regrettably attending the funeral of my late 92 year old grandfather. Interesting to come back home to a mailbox full of comments and all the b/s flying back and forth:

@pandy
Please desist with your half baked conspiracies and incorrect assertions. I’ve read through what you have put up as comments and to put it bluntly you are full of it and need to get a life.

You are either onboard with assisting and promoting Light Rail for the Canberra Region or you are not.

The ACT Light Rail group appreciates constructive input (from anyone), we are not interested in playing games by engaging with “spoilers” and “nay sayers” (categories to which you seem to have neatly pigeon-holed yourself.).

I am involved with several community groups and other special interest organisations around town. I make no secret of my membership of these entities. I’d like to know what your community or special interest group involvement is if any….

Perhaps everybody on RiotACT should be made aware of your own personal aversion to open debate, this will give people an opportunity to spin their own conspiracies about you…

After talking with individuals involved with the administration of the ACT Light Rail Yahoo group I have the following gem from you (shortly before you decided to remove yourself from the ACT Light Rail Yahoo group)

—–

From: "Andy P."
Date: 7 September 2007 6:17:43 PM
To: dchaas67@*******.***
Subject: Re: Messages

Not in the minutes.

Also it stiffles debate.

From: damien haas
To: Andy
Subject: Re: Messages
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:25:37 -0700 (PDT)

Yes - it was a decison taken at the last meeting.

damien haas

--- Andy wrote:

> I was checking the yahoo group when I saw that the
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACTLightRail/
> does not require to have anyone signed to be able to
> read any of the
> messages posted. Is this deliberate?
>
> I know that reading of messages can be restricted.
>

—–

So perhaps Pandy, those that live in glasshouses should throw stones…. so what are YOU trying to hide?

Hold on to that Pandy. Stick it in a frame and hang it next to your fake lunar landing conspiracy discoveries.
Thanks for the feedback on our web design BTW.

Gungahlin Al,

You don’t have any concept about being at arms length do you?

Yes, with the internet and records being publicly available, you can slip up. Only a matter of time.

Since the original passed motion in 2002 has the gcc cancelled the policy to pursue light rail and be a member of the LRC? If not then it is still official policy and gcc is still a member of the LRC.

Ian has resigned form the committee? Thanks for telling us that. Looks like you and he are using the same source of information: re your submission to the ACT government. And you expect us to believe that Jonathon being a member of LRC has not shaped the thinking and mission of gcc over the years? Gives us a break!

Mark, was a member of the gcc committee from 2002.

Yep you should resign as the honourable thing because you lied.

BTW: I live near Evatt 😉

Pretty pathetic Pandy.
2002??
And what a super sleuth you are – 100% for your ability to look up information on publicly available websites mate! “Caught out”? Doing what? I can just see the banner headlines mate: “Community volunteers conspire to help the community.”

Yes, as I did say above “a couple of Gungahlin people are involved”. Jonathon is involved with the light rail push. What’s that line about walking and chewing gum at the same time?
Ian resigned from GCC after many years of strong contributions, to pursue the light rail issue. Haven’t seen him since the abovementioned meeting, but his contributions are missed. I don’t know Mark – maybe he is Bonfire??

So that leaves you with your “concerns” about the light rail push being Gungahlin-centric. Perhaps you’d care to scroll back up and look at their prioritising in their plan – I see plenty of other areas proposed to be serviced before Gungahlin. Now with Gungahlin hat on, I’d argue that the need there is greater due to the virtual absence of employment and therefore the need to commute out we almost all have. I guess you’d just tease some conspiracy out of that too.

“calls for you to resign” – AGM next month Pandy – see you there – it would be nice to get some personal time back…
🙂

If your were a politician Gungahlin Al, there would be calls for you to resign.

GCC has nothing to do with the group Quote Gungahlin Al 12 September 2007

So explain this:

MOTION 3: That the Gungahlin Community Council (1) supports the objective of the ACT
Light Rail Coalition to accelerate the establishment of Light Rail as the backbone of the
ACT’s public transport infrastructure; and (2) will participate in the ACT Light Rail
Coalition to work towards the goal of a Light Rail link between Civic and Gungahlin as
the first step towards a larger Light Rail network serving the ACT.
Proposed: Mark Loney Seconded: by Maben Douglass. CARRIED

Ian Ruecroft spoke for the above motion and suggested the Gungahlin Community Council
become a member of the Light Rail Coalition.

Note Ian Ruecroft wrote one of the articles placed on the gcc website.
Gcc Vice President – Ian Ruecroft (seconded Jonathon Reynolds) 2002
Gcc Transport and Roads – Mark Loney ( Lloyd Walker) 2002

Ian and Mark and Jonathen are current members of the coalition.

But wait:

Gungahlin Community Council Inc
Minutes of Special Executive Meeting
Via Email, Sunday, 12th July, 2007
Alan Kerlin has proposed that Jonathon Reynolds fill the vacancy for the position of Vice President. This was seconded by Ian Ruecroft. The motion was carried by a majority of the Executive – Alan Kerlin, Ian Ruecroft, Kevin Cox and John Kelly. Under the terms of the GCC Constitution, as recorded below, Jonathon Reynolds is duly elected as Vice President.

Gungahlin Al, have you been caught out.

What was I saying about the coalition being Gungahlin centric?

Thumper, totally agree with you. See where Rudd was making promises about raod upgrades? Yep NSW, marginal seat.

bonfire, I did not say YOU were affiliated to gcc. I did say “you have a polished website”, ie act light rail website. Nor did I state that you are a resident of Gungahlin. It haas been said by me that the second line should be built to Belconnen. 😉

GCC has nothing to do with the group
Gungahlin Al, gcc does not need to be a member of the light rail coalition. gcc has at least *two* articles on the website on light rail. And your (see August newsletter) vice-president “jr” is affiliated with act light rail:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACTLightRail/messages/620

But wait there is more:
http://www.parliament.act.gov.au/downloads/submissions/40%20ACTION%20Gungahlin.pdf
May this year signed by you where you support light rail. In fact you state:
ACT Government consideration of light rail is based on unsubstantiated
costings that are estimated to be inflated by 300%.

This is what the coalition on your website writes on light rail:
ACT government consideration of light rail is based on inaccurate costings that are estimated to be inflated by 300%.

An observer would think that the act light rail coalition has influence in the workings of the gcc.

I am your side with a link to Gungahlin first, but at the expense of the Majura Parkway that is.

Pandy: yes there is a similarity in the website design. This is because they both use the open source (i.e. free) CMS “Joomla!”, and the open source Rocket Themes template “Versatility 3”. We rebuilt the http://www.gcc.asn.au website to use the Versatility 3 template within a couple of weeks of it being released, due to its increased layout flexibility over what we were using. Can’t help it if others also see the same benefits we did.

Although I know a couple of Gungahlin people are involved in the Light Rail push, GCC has nothing to do with the group or the website, and I personally have no idea who Bonfire (whom I frequently disagree with except on PT matters) is, but he isn’t one of the aforementioned Gungahlin people.

Now hopefully having dispelled your aspersions, do you want to get back on topic? Although we’ve thrashed through the light rail/PT issue a few times here in recent months, I suspec it will remain topical until someone (clearly not John Hargreaves) decides to start throwing some vision back into government transport planning in this town.

In the meantime, it would appear the Light Rail folk are doing a good job at getting the issue back on the agenda. More power to them!

fyi pandy – i have no affilliation with the gcc or any community group.

Interesting analogies in the above comment.

One thing about the 1,000 defence employees that you omitted is that equals 1,000 people in individual vehicles, all looking for a reliable way to get to work at a specific time.

Hate to point out the obvious to you, but unless they are at work at 0730, they’re fizzed.

Without going much further into it, I would consider a train line between Canberra and DFHQ the cash cow that would sustain the remainder of the network.

I also agree that a Belconnen/Civic line is of importance, as is a Tuggeranong/Civic line. Once the infrastructure is in place to deliver public servants to the triangle, with an outpost to deliver overflow into civic, the city would be humming.

Under this scenario, the Gungahlinites could drive themselves to work on empty roads while a track was put in for them.

Oh note this report on building light rail along streets in Australia eg Vernon Circle, Consitution Ave

http://203.147.135.212/AboutSydney/documents/ParkingAndTransport/LightRail/FinalReportCastlereaghSt-310506.pdf

$15,000 per lineal metre = $15 million per km

Cost per tram A$4 million up. The Sydney trams have trouble getting up a 5.6% grade. Modified trams to cope with an 8% gradient adds $500,000 to http://www.transitaustralia.com.au/backissues.htmeach tram unit.

Hyder consulting linked to KBR? Seem to have provide advice on the West London Tram Project, so they might know something about trams.

Here is a mob you you can call to get a quote on electrifying the line to Bugendore:”

http://www.downerediworks.com.au/Default.aspx?aCateId=1135

Whinge?
“Stimulating debate”

You have a polished website bonfire. Funny how it looks similar to the Gungahlin community council website. Do you know the gradient of the line in Ireland? How does that compare to Molonglo Gorge? Can light rail be any faster than the current diesel train to Sydney up the gorge?

Transport woes? Create a problem and then seek a solution. Nice one. We are not Sydney you know. Our peak hour crush is laughable.

OK off with the sarcasm. Yes light rail/buses whatever. Acknowledge the cost first. Don’t go around and telling the Government that they are idiots by saying their construction cost are 300% over inflated. I am sure the government will jump at the chance to get the contact details of the company that can build a light rail line from Gungahlin to Civic for $40 million ($3M/km) according to the standards that befits a modern, vibrant, livable city eg Adelaide (OK don’t larf about it being vibrant).

Defense HQ:
Like why spend tens of millions electrifying the line and installing a new line to service 1,000 employees? Defense obviously don’t see a need, what with the dispersal of their employees across the region. At best they think they could put on 2 buses to cater for demand. I’ll ask you how many of those employees would you like to see catching light rail? Then I’ll give you a few reasons why it won’t work. Also how would you entice employees not to travel by car/bus from Gungahlin via Macs Reef Road? Besides how will you convince the ACT Government pay to electrify the line within NSW? So what is wrong with having rail cars running to the HQ as I suggested first?

And a 1,000 employees well that is what is moving in to the airport next week (slight exaggeration). Does not light rail work well where there is a greater concentration of people? As I have said in the past as you well know, build the line from Gungahlin to the Airport (just $45 million heh heh) to Civic to Parliament House. Pander to the ego of the pollies: Service where the greatest concentration of workers actually are.

I appreciate that you think that it just looked too easy to build light rail to Bungendore first. But really it would be better spending the money within the ACT between major employment/residential nodes. I also know that pride will prevent you from reconsidering your initial line. Well good luck convincing the local pollies then. Will Vicki think this is a vote winner?

Totally agree that Molonglo should be built around light rail/ buses.

Who are the pollies who will be attending you meeting tomorrow night?
Any from NSW especially given 90% of the initial track works occurs in NSW? Any Defense reps?

Yep and finally, I think the light rail should next be built to Belconnen 😉

Public Servants hate buses. Public Servants are a “picky bunch”. Public Servants are …

Solutions for Canberra’s transport problems?

How about putting in some car parks in Civic and Woden!

that act light rail website has some cool videos. i like the speedy irish tram one. i reckon anyone sitting in the monaro parking lot some mornings would appreciate it.

it also has a tram climbing a steep hill, which negates pandys whine.

im curious to know what pandys wondrous solution to our public transport woes is – could it be – gasp – more buses ?

if you dont like what they are proposing – what are your solutions ? or perhaps you just like to whinge.

Light rail – the answer to a question nobody asked about a problem nobody has.

p.s. if there is going to be any pork barelling in the immediate future, I want the pork barelling to be in Canberra, not elsewhere.

Then walk your fatness away.

Well bonfire,

Why electrify the line to Defense HQ now? Build the 1km spur line and have a local operator like the historical railway society run some rail cars as a shuttle service between Kingston, Queanbeyan and Defense HQ.

With the park and rides at said stations as shown above, I am sure that the residents of Gungahlin and Jerrabomberra will drive their cars to the park and ride, wait for a train and then travel the 20 to 30 minutes it would take for a train to get up the gorge.

Until Line 2 is built, Gungahlin residents would still have to travel by public transport to Civic, or via car down the congested Majura road to Kingston to hop on the train. I am sure they would do spend 60 – 70 minutes doing this instead of taking their car and getting there in half an hour.

Tramstops are never planned to be placed more than 400 metres from where you want to go. We are talking 1km here.

yeah its really strange that where they do provide public transport in the form of light rail or even heavy rail – people use it.

some people are known to walk further than their carpark to their office. its been said some people might actually walk several hundred metres from their tramstop to their office.

Line 1 is not clear on the map above. It indicates that it goes across the Jerrabomberra Wetlands.

From other sources, it seems instead that it goes west of the Monaro Highway at Fyshwick thru the old DAAS depot, along the old Dairy Road avoiding the declared wetlands area (http://www.legislation.act.gov.au/di/1994-117/19940818-11083/pdf/1994-117.pdf), and thence joins Morshead Drive at the roundabout. Just 1km short of the boundary of the airport.

While looking for information about electrifying for light rail use the steam age era railway Molonglo Gorge I found the following excerpts in relation to the Defense HQ:

65% of staff live in the Canberra area, 28% live in Queanbeyan (includes Jerrabomberra) and 7% in Bungendore.

Bus Transport
15.16 ACTPLA Policy and Legislation (GA3) have requested further investigation of the bus service option to the proposed facility is noted. Options under investigation should include a bus service to and from staff residences to the facility (i.e. from Defence Housing areas in Gungahlin through Canberra Central and Queanbeyan to HQJOC).

The implementation of a bus system as an alternate staff transport mode was addressed conceptually in the Draft EIS. This analysis is provided in Appendix D2 Section 6. The analysis assumed the provision of bus services for 120 staff during the peak hours. This service would reduce the expected traffic generation heading towards Queanbeyan / Canberra to approximately 680 vehicles/hour in lieu of the 801 vehicles/hour detailed in the previous studies.

Rail
The option of rail access to the proposed Project Site was considered early in development of the Draft EIS. At the time it was discounted in comparison to other forms of transport because of the significant issues raised in terms of capital cost, including the provision of railcars, a station and either a covered walkway or spur line for about 1km from the main line into the Facility site; maintenance responsibilities; and reliability of service. Notwithstanding, overall a rail service might not solve traffic impacts related to the Facility as it might cause traffic congestion and impacts at rail terminals (Canberra and/or Queanbeyan) and would likely still require a majority of headquarters staff to use private transport to connect to rail terminals because they would reside across the region. Nonetheless, some headquarters staff may use a railcar service if one is able to provide adequate service, but any such service and the necessary supporting infrastructure would be at the full commercial risk of the provider.

My Conclusion:
Defense do not believe that the provision of busses (for 120 staff ) will have a significant impact on car travel patterns. Ditto rail service. Staff will find it inconvenient to travel to a park and ride at Kingston Railway station from Gungahlin (easier to travel by car by Macs Reef Road) or Weston Creek etc.

You need to convince Defense, the Defense Minister, that the Feds will foot the bill to build and run light rail, before this issue gets legs. Seems like they don’t think many people will make the switch to public transport anyway.

I’m confused Felix – either the GDE is a road to nowhere, and therefore only needs to be two lane – or it needs to be four lane, and therefore must be doing something useful. Which is it?

To all those who complain about the GDE being only two-lane – firstly, how about you wait and see if it really can’t handle the volume of traffic before you complain? And secondly, take a look at the overpasses and take note of the fact that all of the earthworks and supporting pylons for a second, future, carriageway have been built. This approach (build with two lanes, upgrade to four when necessary) has been used successfully in Canberra before (eg Drakeford Drive). Due to the time-value of money, it’s a waste of money – our money – to spend now what we could sensibly put off spending until later.

My 2c worth – Light Rail is far too expensive and impractical for the reasons others have already posted and will be like the ACTION buses, very underutilised, especially in off-peak periods.

GDE is a waste of space and money. Going from Gungahlin (it is only just in Gungahlin the entry, good if you live in Mitchell or Kaleen) it doesn’t take you to Civic, instead it dumps you at Aranda onto already overcrowded Belconnen Way.

It doesn’t take you to Belconnen Town Centre either. It dumps you onto Gininderra Drive near AIS (great if you are an athlete living in Mitchell or Kaleen). It is still a 15 minute drive to BTC from there and about five or six sets of traffic lights.

And it is only one lane each way. The Govt claim this is because they used up all the money for the other lane(s) fighting court battles with the Save The Ridge mob. BS I reckon. They never had any intention of building more than one lane, they are just using the STR court procedings as an excuse.

As for the Majura Rd/Proposed Parkway – it is long overdue and will not only benefit Gungahlin residents it will allow interstate (Sydney) people to travel direct to southside/airport/snowfields/pornshops as well as provide a decent road for road transport (semi trailers and the like) to use. No doubt the Govt will stuff it up by installing traffic lights and greed cameras and reducing the speed limit (already done that once, it used to be 100km/h) so that traffic flow is actually slower than before.

Yeah, I’m not adverse to the idea of light rail in general (it seems to work well in Melbourne), but I don’t agree with the idea of sending trams up the steam-era Molongolo Gorge alignment.

As an inner-north resident I don’t see the Majura Pwy as benefitting only Gunghalinites – it should hopefully see reduced traffic on Northbourne and Limestone which is a positive for us too.

One more thing – are we talking overhead wires? Do we really want that on, say, Commonwealth Avenue?

$45 million versus $150 million.

Lets see a pledge from the candidates from the Federal election that they back the
building of light rail in Canberra then. We would not be having this
debate if it were not for the glimmer of hope that the Feds will be
footing the money for this project. What do you say Gazza and where
should it be built first? Someone from the Labor camp? Greens?

The fact is Snowtown is there. Many more thousands will be working there
as the office developments in front of Brand Depot are completed. These workers really have no choice where their bosses, private or PS decide to place their workers. To suggest that the thousands of commuters that travel from Gungahlin should
put-up with the traffic problems of the Majura Road is really a head in
the sand issue. It reflects the petty hold-my-breath view of the ACT
Government with their refusal to provide a decent ACTION bus service to
the airport.

As Gungahlin Al has confirmed, the planning for the
Majura Parkway is being done and it will cost $150 million if not more.
For whom? Primarily, for residents of Gungahlin to travel to the airport,
Russell, Civic. I stand to be corrected but I believe that this money is
coming from the ACT tax payer.

So why should the money not be invested in public transport instead?
Gungahlin to the airport is approx 15km. Taking the cost of $3 million
per km from the coalition website, it would cost a mere $45 million to build. Makes you
wonder why the Government is not building light rail instead hey? What is
not clear is if their costs also included the 20 to 40 light rail units
(250 standing passengers each) that will be needed to transport the peak
hour (20 minute hour trip) commuters from Gungahlin to the
airport/Russell/Civic.

Based on $3 million per km, with the left over money from $150 million,
Route 1 to Civic could be built easily. Wonderful stuff. Until you
realise that placing a line in the road surface as envisaged along
Constitution Ave/London Circuit will cost around $18 million per km.

The reason why the light rail coalition need not back the building of
better public transport to the airport is because it has nothing to lose,
since the Majura Parkway benefiting Gungahlanities will occur regardless.
They also know, that the line to the airport would be eventually be built
as has been often commented upon by the political parties. By raising the
issue now, it would jeopardize the building of the Parkway. GDE as was
often said by many did not have to be built if light rail had been built
to Gungahlin instead. It is a case of having its cake and eating it too
for the future.

I appreciate that the map might be submitted as a controversial piece of
work to promote debate

BTW membership of the coalition requires that you abide by its aims and purposes:

d) that an initial Light Rail route could be constructed between Jerrabomberra and the new Defence HQ in Bungendore using existing infrastructure.

Finally, Why focus on cost? Money is important as the choice within government between different priorities has to be made. If someone said to me I could build a house for $100,000 and I went ahead and financed a loan but the real cost is $200,000 then I would be pissed.

Even if we did implement light rail, we would still need to drastically improve the buses.

I like the idea of light rail. Clean, comfortable, environmentally friendly, taking you quickly to the places you want to go ..

The trouble is, I think the concept diagram shows why it won’t work here, not until we at least double our population. Pandy makes good points about direction/location and COST. How would this ever be paid for?

If I lived in Spence or Fraser, for arguments sake, but worked in Civic or Woden, I still wouldn’t use light rail, because even with a park and ride station at EPIC or the AIS, it would still be more convenient for me to drive, and probably cheaper too.

@bonfire
Correct… the map is exactly that a simply a stake in the ground from which to generate discussion.

In the ACT Light Rail forum (on Yahoo groups) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ACTLightRail/ Pandy has contributed by putting forward his/her alternative vision and that is exactly the input that the group is looking for.

Your comment about roads and power poles is extremely pertinent. We take those (not insignificant) costs for granted as part of our standard city infrastructure. Now only if we could individuals to think laterally and consider that a light rail network could be treated the same way…

@Pandy
My personal opinion is that the Canberra International Airport (CIA) is a wholly private development, for the large part out of the control of the Territorial planning regime. Do you not think it should be the responsibility of the CIA and not the general tax payers to contribute significantly to transport options if they want their facility properly serviced? If Majura road is to be upgraded, it should be for the right reasons, not just to provide a faster route to allow people to get to and from work at the airport, but rather to complete another link in the National road network linking the Monaro Highway to the Federal Highway – incidentally something that should be funded Federally and again not out of the pockets of local tax payers..

I would also suggest you check your assertions about ACT Light Rail being a Gungahlin-centric and focused organisation. The opportunity to leverage the Civic-Gungahlin route as the first segment of the network was lost long ago – the ACT Light Rail group has moved on. I can’t see how advocating that first segments of a Light Rail network use existing rail line that run down the ACT/NSW border past Tuggeranong, into Kingston then out to the new Defence HQ towards Bungendore has anything remotely Gungahlin-centric about it.

Finally the GDE is an essential portion of the Territory road backbone network, a piece of infrastructure that should have been in place before Gungahlin development was even started. It is true that I advocated the construction of the GDE at both a Community and Political level and if I had my time again I would have done the same.

This city does need a light rail system and I think a Monorail has a good 80’s tacky-ness that would blend right in. Just add some timber cladding and pebble cement rendering to the posts and you have yourself a winner.

i dont think the map is an exact guide, more of a general indicator.

why are people averse to spending money on light rail infrastructure on ‘cost’ grounds ?

do you whine about the road to your home, or the power pole in the backyard ?

public transport investment in the form of lightrail would be a good thing to grow canberra. those people living in the new skyscrapers out in molonglo will need to get to the airport somehow.

i dont think they want to wait ten years for the molonglo drive extension.

We want light rail because we can have it.

For no other reason than to be able to throw money at a monolith is good enough reason for so many other projects around this town, Federal or Community funded.

Why so anti light rail ?

Aren’t we meant to be the utopian Australian environment, the centre of all funding and the only place where the GST is being spent ?

And another thing from their website:

“Number 2. Which would you rather have in your neighbourhood: a Light Rail line or a multi-lane Freeway?.
Both cary (sic) the same number of people at capacity, and a light rail line would cost about 80% less than a freeway with far less impact on the environment. Do we want to go through the Gungahlin Drive Extension processes again?”

This is a bit rich coming from the Gungahlin centric coalition.

I doubt whether any past or present member of the coalition when in the community/political/running for election spot light ever argued that GDE should not be built. I recall protest rallies where Gungahlinites demanded that GDE be built. But they also wanted light rail.

Has anything changed? I would say no because there are no calls from the coalition that the ACT government investment in the Majura Parkway (to service Snowtown) be scrapped and the money instead be invested in to light rail. As I have argued in the past, the airport can be serviced by light rail from Gungahlin and leave the existing road as it is.

From the website:

“While early studies claimed exorbitant costs, recent figures indicate that costs of between 3 and 6 million dollars per kilometer would be comparable to or cheaper than alternatives such as additional or enlarged roads or dedicated bus-ways.”

The Gold Coast Light rail has blown out from $400 million to $700 million and not a sod has been turned.

How can a light rail be cheaper than a busway? Oh that’s right, even though you need to build bridges, install at grade rail lines into the ground etc but somehow not building the electric overhead, transformers, installing signaling, installing level crossings makes building light rail cheaper than a road.

How can building light rail as shown in the following shots be any cheaper than roads?

(the following pages take some time to load))

Dig a road to lay track easy?: http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11326407-0-asc-s105.htm

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11326407-0-asc-s705.htm

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11326407-0-asc-s585.htm

You want grass?: http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11326407-0-asc-s555.htm

1.8km = $31 million: http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11326407-0-asc-s570.htm

Remember every single road crossing would involve similar construction. Every installation in a road eg Constitution Avenue or London Circuit, State Circle would require similar construction. Every insert into the grass would require a similar construction. Installation on the bridges would not be possible without raising the bed of the bridges by 150 cms at least and significant strengthening of the box sections.

Now to what I think is wrong with the proposal.

Building Line 1 would be built over the Jerrabomberra wetlands requiring a 1.2km bridge. Cost? $50million. Defence HQ will have only about 700 staff there a day during peak times. Much less than the thousands moving into new office developments elsewhere.

Line 4 does not follow the Governments plans for busway/lightrail for the new suburbs of Molonglo but involves tunneling through Dairy Hill.

The Monaro Highway Park and Ride is built at Melrose Valley?. The Monaro Highway is very steep around there. The old railway line has very steep sections around here too.

Line 4 does not go through the center of the Tuggeranong Valley.

There is no line to the airport and the massive town center being developed there.

Light rail operations from Quenbeyan to Kingston would have to compete and fit in with the NSW railway operations from Sydney. That would mean delays.

Line 2 does not go past Manuka Oval.

If someone wanted to go from Civic to Woden would they really want to (until Line 4 is built) hop on to a tram go to Kingston first then back to Parliament House? Or would they say: “Hey it was quicker in the past when we could get on a 300 bus and travel down Commonwealth Bridge to Woden.”

And the biggest problem is:

How often would light rail run along these routes? So how many trams would you need to provide all of these services?

All the best for your efforts, but they are ill thought out and un-costed in the extreme.

I’m with Cranky – let’s see how it goes with dedicated buses first.

I like this, but it needs a branch line to Murrumbateman and Yass. Ultimately maybe even to Goulburn – not only would that make Goulburn a livable option, it would also link us up with the Cityrail train network for commuting to Sydney. The Countrylink service to Canberra is designed for pleasure travellers, not commuters – ever had to see a specialist in Sydney? – and in certain cases, connecting with the Cityrail network is more helpful than the Murrays/Greyhound services.

The other thing I would say is that the price needs to be competitive, and the vehicles need to be warm. Action buses are freezing!

What you folks need is a Monorail!
…or maybe it’s more of a Shelbyville idea.

A Zeppelin! By george, if it’s good enough for the Krouts, then there is a chance it might work here.

How about using a Zeppelin. They are cheap and the view is just wonderful. All you need is some hot air (Plenty of that in this town) and an acre of flat grasslands

The rail bit seems to be a bit of a problem…guage sizes and all that. Perhaps we could invent some kind of machine that could carry people, say around 30 to 60, but use some those rubberized wheels that those horse carriages are using.

STERLING IDEA CHAPS!

This is dead technology. What is needed is something in the nature of a horizontal, but multi-dimensional lift. You press a button for where you want to go and, soon afterwards, a box arrives to take you there. Just like going to the 37th level in a modern building.

OK – there are a few details to be worked out but that is what you finish up with – what is needed to do the job.

In the meantime, Melbourne has a quite incredible light rail network. And even Sydney has a modest system (Sydney must have the most diverse public transport anywhere – even monorail!)

In Canberra, if you see a bus it is almost always empty.

There are a few interesting misconceptions there. First with the guage, all the tram/light rail systems in use in Australia use standard guage, the same as the train system in NSW. What is different is the wheel profile, bit it is quite possible to use the same profile.

The width of a LR track is the same as one of our car lanes if you run it on the road. If you run it on dedicated track you could run two tracks in a smaller area than two car lanes. Northborne was always designed for trams running down the middle, but yes agree it would be hard to get that through. That being said some modern systems use track that is surrounded by grass, even between the tracks.

As for bridges, there is no reason Commonwealth Ave bridge couldn’t take a LR track with appropriate strengthening. Remember we are not talking about a heavy rail train system here. The other option is a third bridge in the middle. Neither would be cheap but again not impossible.

The whole problem with something like this is cost and the basic design of Canberra. Unlike European cities and older Aus cities, we generally have a distributed population and distributed work places. If everyone worked in the city it might be feasible, but running a track from everywhere to everwhere is not possible. In fact this is also the biggest problem with ACTION buses. People don’t like changing, but with Canberra there isn’t much option.

Looks like a good blueprint for dedicated ACTION services to prove the numbers are viable.

Without Federal Government funding, Light Rail will sadly remain a pipe dream. Can anybody seriously see the Howard Government bankrolling this? It would be the biggest “pork barrel” the country has ever seen. As much as I see Light Rail as both an innovative as well as necessary concept for Canberra, the Federal Government’s apathy towards the Nation’s capital, combined with the Local Government’s incompetence will virtually guarantee Light Rail a spot in the “To Hard basket”, alongside the High speed Rail link between Canberra and Sydney.

It doesn’t have to be faster than car travel – it will be much easier, and more pleasant. You can sit and read a book etc.

Light rail is a wonderful idea. But what are the guarantees that it will be reliable and prompt, any faster than car travel and that anyone will use it.? Public transport, especially to the outer suburbs does not have a great history. What incentives will there be for commuters apart from a warm fuzzy feeling? It needs to be a viable, reliable alternative.

“I just can’t see how to get it through Civic, Across the bridge etc.”

If they use a system that uses the normal gauge railway tracks, they can’t. Those systems take up a lot of space and become very expesive if they are to be mounted off the ground.
The use of PRT systems like ULTra however would see the system cross the bridge and go through Civic as easily as the Darling Harbour monorail traverses the streets and plazas of Sydney.

“Both heavy and Light Rail can operate on the same track.”

Though in the plans and concepts the government was displaying from 96 right through to a couple of years ago, they all depicted a system that was lighter than light rail. What was depicted was PRT or Personal Rapid Transport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit). The renderings and designs (some of which predated any existing version of this technology) bared a striking resemblence to the new ULTra at Heathrow Airport which will open next year (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULTra_%28PRT%29).
Something tells me if they attempt to use the existing rail system as part of a new light rail netwprk, it’s going to be a disaster. Rathe than a light, versitile system like ULTra, we’ll be lumped with an inflexible, rail version of the unprofitable ACTION.

Looks great to me.

I think the problem is that noone is ever going to authorise it to go down the centre of Northbourne.
It would be fine once it got to Yamba drive though.
I just can’t see how to get it through Civic, Across the bridge etc.

Both heavy and Light Rail can operate on the same track.

See 1:50 into this YouTube video for a “Tram”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsdJPaih0Fw

isn’t the existing rail infrastructure the wrong gauge for light rail?