15 December 2006

Self-defence claim in Kingston killing

| Ari
Join the conversation

Tying in with the speculation found among the comments in this post, the Canberra Times reports that Ian Edward Hirst, 54, will claim self-defence over the killing of David Peter Bagnall, 53, at Fraser Court.

Hirst apparently met the “special or exceptional circumstances” requirement needed to gain bail after a murder charge.

Join the conversation

All Comments
  • All Comments
  • Website Comments

There is an article which would be incendiary, but nobody wants to review&approve or review&censor it. 😐

bonfires email addy told me he moved on about a year ago.

I miss vg and his incendiary anecdotes – now its me v school children – not as good as watching vg in all his/her colours. And what happened to ole bonfire too – Ra is just getting too user friendly….

Male until proven female? 😛

How do we get Big man, small willy I suspect and clearly talking through his large, hairy butt-cheeks. and ‘this is a comment about VelvetG – a female’ into a tagline ?

Holden Caulfield11:15 pm 23 Jan 08

Oh, it’s you again.

I don’t often visit this site nor read the comments, but I felt I had to respond to Vg’s comments of 17 December 2006 which I have only just read.

Big man, small willy I suspect and clearly talking through his large, hairy butt-cheeks.

Pappas is an outstanding advocate with a remarkably impressive “strike-rate”. I can only imagine Vg is regurgitating the mantra of Pappas’s detractors without having any first-hand knowledge or has, at some stage, been shown by Pappas’s famous cross-examination to be the vacuous nit-wit his comments would suggest he is, his only comeback being to post anonymously about someone whose ca-ca he is not fit to sniff.

The police may whinge and complain about Pappas but I know from first hand experience they too go running to him for representation if they or their family or friends are in trouble.

The truth is Pappas is not that expensive nor that exclusive and, again from first hand experience, I can say he is worth every cent. Hirst clearly needs good representation and he has it.

Vg and other “experts” should wait for the result of the trial. Lets not overlook that rather fundamental precept of our criminal justice system the “presumption of innocence”.


Big Al
what are you as iv been told by the goon squad that im mad like chester

There’s a diference between mad and fucked in the head.

And you guys call crazy chester mad

No idea – but if you post your address it might be possible to increase those figures by at least one.

How many times have the police killed some one and used Self-defence claim
Against a unarmed man.

We all know the ACT police only do work when is about raising money.”

I think everyone knows this statement is crap.

Every one know that it was planed in advanced.
so that means they were hopping to bust cars and make money.

leave me out of it .
Big Al has points that i made and i was insulted
for saying it.
And i dont have a problem with you VG you try to do your job but you cant win every time .
only when you are in Uniform and a badge.

Yeah that’s actually a bit of a worry really.

“unlike yourself who was actually involved in the cock-up”

Just a question, how do you know it was a cock up? Maybe all was going well with the negotations and he accidently shot himself. From what I understand you do need some training when around guns. Just a thought. I wonder if the angle was ever looked at.

“We all know the ACT police only do work when is about raising money.”

I think everyone knows this statement is crap. Not every cop is perfect, but I would think the majority try hard. In my opinion they are just as good as every other state I have lived in.

I deal with lame insults on a daily basis. Don’t flatter yourself

But then again Jim is now in your corner

Sorry to disappoint vg, but my position on violence as a way to try and prove your point is well stated here – All I am offering is the opportunity to demonstrate that I have no problem with calling you a fucked up little monkey to your face – If you cant deal with that in a non-violent way then don’t bother looking me up. On the other hand, if you want to sit down over a couple of beers and robustly discuss anything we disagree about then by all means seek me out.

And mate, it’s a bit rich for you to invoke the “scaredy cat” tag when you have so often sought to hide behind the caveat of “sporting contest” as a way of avoiding the otherwise logical consequences of your inability to deal with what is, by any standard, a fairly lame insult.

Big Al
I like what you are saying in some part BUT I WAS KICKED OFF THIS SITE.
We all know the ACT police only do work when is about raising money.
But i have seen some police that i know take there job real .
We do need a enquire it to policing in act and the
amount of complaints they get doesent help AS it is just used to start up a new program and waste tax payer money.
There was to be a task force to deal with problem areas but never seen it.
I dont hate Police but if there done there job and
stopped half for the crime canberra would be a nice place too live.

I don’t consider anything I do or don’t do at work a ‘trophy’ but suffice to say I’ve got a little more on my resume than a recovered Commodore, but I won’t bore you or others with the detail. On an education scale, well lets say that I am beyond under-graduate study.

Calling Joe Average a ‘fucked up little monkey’ to his face might invite a certain well-deserved response back. A response I expect most RAs would expect as well.

The fact that you’d like to caveat any possible meeting with a scaredy cat clause says a lot to me and others. To be honest I fail to see what any sort of meeting would achieve if your actions follow from what you say here. It would be nothing but a stream of vulgar, non-sensical invective. Something that comes stock standard from a City drunk on a Saturday night.

That and any form of disagreement by me would no doubt see you running to my employer with a complaint of some description.

I’m sorry that this has become so boring for others, but I’m guessing Al is feeling a little miffed that, once again, he has been made to look a little petty and silly.

vg if all you’ve got as a trophy is a recovered commodore then you’re a sad little monkey indeed …

In terms of catching up – I’m certainly not going to be bothered arranging anything specific but I do enjoy a Sunday afternoon ale at front bar of the Mawson Club from around 1600 and when the inclination arises I have been known to drop by the Irish Club in Weston Creek on a Tuesday evening around an hour or so before closing. Obviously absolutely nothing I’ve posted here in any way constitues and invitation of, or consent to, violence so come prepared for a verbal bollocking sucker.

Lets remember how it started.

I won’t lie down when someone gets personal

Puh-lease, get a room or stop the pissing contest.

“My comment on Thumpers thread was a piffling barb, nothing more and you don’t do yourself justice by raising it”

Made to look even more stupid by the fact that you were, once again, incorrect when it comes to what I do for a living

“I’m more than happy to get together and call you a fucked up little monkey to your face “

Name the time and place. I have a feeling you will be looking up quite a way to call me that to my face

vg as I’ve said before, your consistent suggestions that I don’t have the intestinal fortitude to repeat my observations about your character in person are in fact veiled threats of violence – I’m more than happy to get together and call you a fucked up little monkey to your face and let the legal system deal with the consequences or otherwise of your inability to deal with reality – none of this fair sporting contest bullshit you like to trot out, no little guy playing big at the Police and Citizens Club sorry mate, you can keep that macho bullshit posturing all to yourself – It’s a simple fact that you don’t have the balls be told what you are and not resort to violence … deal with it dickhead and move on.

Now I assume that when you say “…the way you crumbled last time when asked to put up or shut up really did prove the queslity [sic] of man/woman/child you are.” You must be talking about the thread that resulted from those negotiations you fucked up with the punk who shot himself. Now I don’t know about you, but I would have thought that pointing out that if the only tool police have is a hammer, then you don’t have to be a rocket surgeon to realize they’ll end up treating every problem as if it were a nail was a fairly reasoned observation from an outsider – unlike yourself who was actually involved in the cock-up. I didn’t bother following up your twaddle about police procedures for such situations because I read elsewhere that one of the lead people involved in preparing the guidelines you were supposed to be working to had publicly pointed out that many of the options canvassed in the RA thread – including allowing family members to assist with resolving the stand off – were acceptable approaches. I figured you’d become a soft target on that one and that you didn’t need me heaping more shit on you.

You seem to suggest that being a cop somehow makes you better informed on matters of the law – whereas all I point out is that when your stock in trade is revenue raising on the ACTs roads, dealing with petty criminals and domestic matters then you’re really no better placed than I or anyone else to have an opinion. As a result the fact that we disagree cannot be resolved on the assumption that you are right and I am wrong – You like to pretend that you’re the crack intellectual – and hey you may well seem smart when your at work, but simply telling someone they have no idea what their talking about does not make for interesting dialog. My comment on Thumpers thread was a piffling barb, nothing more and you don’t do yourself justice by raising it

It would be very hard to establish a prima facie case either way at a bail application. Thats what a commital hearing is for.

Funnily enough the magistrates in this town seem to have the insight to be able to detect this at a bail application.

Prima facie or otherwise is somewhere well down the track, not for a magistrate to discuss at a bail hearing. They decide whether the person is suitable for bail, nothing else. Another case of a Canberra magistrate overstepping their authority

Good to see some of you enjoying the Christmas spirit(s).

im back
And i must of made a Impression AS all the people on here us my name.
I read some were that if you tell the truth like i have people will get upset.
And insult you for it.
I have sat in court and Listened to DPP AND POLICE LIE.
I have been to court and defended my self against police and won.

I should point out, if the cops didn’t have a particularly strong prima facie case (or if there was a strong prima facie case for self defence), then surely Mr. Hirst’s lawyers are being professionally negligent by not moving to have the entire instance summarily dismissed, rather than just arranging bail?

It’s perfectly fine for people to have all the expensive lawyers they like, however, where magistrates decide to fold like a card table just because someone being paid more than them is in the room, then that’s a problem..


Veiled threat of violence? Please point it out.

You are a petty little troll. At least I can discuss with intelligence rather than invective. But then again the way you crumbled last time when asked to put up or shut up really did prove the queslity of man/woman/child you are.

As for nothing to add, well sadly for you I brought something to the argument that was borne out of actual experience, rather than your demonstrated lack of knoweldge of a system I have forgottem more about than you will ever learn.

All you bring is abuse and naivety, as clearly demonstrated in Thumper’s post re his sons stolen car.

Like I said to Jim, its almost cruel to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man….but sorta fun

What’s that smell? Looks like our rancid little mate vg has crawled out from under his cosy little rock to vent his spleen at anyone who doesn’t share his fucked-up totalitarian view of the world. Nice lecture about the legal system and local brief strike rates though – If I had a buck for every cop I’ve met who reckoned he knew something about the legal system I’d be a shit load richer than I already am.

If you’ve got nothing to add except anecdotes about your snack preferences and yet further veiled threats of violence and how big and tough you are and how I’m supposed to be so frightened of Mr Tough Man Cop you may as well fuck off back to your shitty little life.

No easier target than someone who’s view of the world is perpetuated by sterotypes

Quite clearly little Al has had no exposure whatsoever to our legal system. By the way, feel free to call me a “donut munching arse-wipe” to my face next time you see me……oh, thats right, you’ll never meet me so you can be a he-man at the end of your DSL line.

Never eaten a donut at work by the way, clearly your knowledge of policing and the law is gained from American TV shows. Next time you’re at work at 4am on a regular basis give me a tinkle.

Pappas has long been known as all show, no go. Reality check? Give me strength. The reality with Pappas, Murphy and counsel of that ilk is once they start ranting and raving in Court you know they’ve got nothing factual or evidential to come at you with. His strike rate is not as great as people like to think it is.

Its a big, wide world out there beyond your computer Al, take a trip outside and have a look

So theres a problem with rich fathers looking out for their kids! Get real … briefs like Pappas are the reality check our community needs to reign in the donut munching arse-wipes our over-taxing Government wastes what it calls a police force – and you dont have to read the Tele to be dumb enough to join the demographic that does.

Hirst’s father is extraordinarily well-off and it’s he who is bank-rolling Pappas.

I don’t read the Tele. I don’t know Hirst. I just know the rest of the family.

What troubles me is that we need such things as “special and exceptional circumstances” in relation to bail arrangements in a legal system that presumes innocence until proof of guilt has prevailed – could it be that those who seek pre-trial incarceration are infact just another bunch of shit bag arse-maggots unprepared to understand and embrace our legal system, yet more than happy to sprout off about what ever bit of reactionary bullshit they can regurgitate from the likes of the Tele. Get a life people … lets wait and see what comes out in the trial.

victimsfamily10:05 pm 16 Dec 06

Hirst was living in low imcome housing (Fraser Court). How can he not afford surety but CAN afford a high profile lawyer like Pappas?????

if his family is so well off why would he live in divey flats?

victimsfamily9:49 pm 16 Dec 06

Thank you to gaelhope for your comment. I also had heard this. But as with a heap more I know about this case to be fact, I am unable to put more comments. I’d hate to give Hirst reason to say I’d jeopardized his case. I will say that David had NO defence wounds at all and there are a lot more facts that don’t add up.

Or maybe it’s just that Hirst is the son of an elderly Sydney millionaire with good legal connections. It’s bullshit that Hirst wouldn’t be able to pay a surety. Daddy has lots of dosh…

Maybe the fact that the Magistrate said that there was a strong prima facie case that it was self-defence and a murder charge would be unlikely to succeed.

victimsfamily4:19 pm 15 Dec 06

Could be a case of “Who you Know” not “special and exceptional circumstances”

Yup, I’d be interested to know what those “special and exceptional circumstances” were. Having a job and dependants is, in and of itself, not usually considered special or exceptional.

Its curious than whenever legislation is enacted in this town that involves “special or exceptional circumstances”, that we have so many people with those “special or exceptional circumstances”.

There is a rumour going around that Jacqui Burke recently offered Hirst a job in her MLA office but was over-ruled by her Party. Great judgement by our voiceless MLA!

I very, very vaguely know of the prisoner. I know he was a spokesman for Public Housing but I think the accused has an interesting past and even a entrepenourial background? Something to do with Kingston foreshore development ironically, but quite a few years ago…anyone heard of him before?

Daily Digest

Want the best Canberra news delivered daily? Every day we package the most popular Riotact stories and send them straight to your inbox. Sign-up now for trusted local news that will never be behind a paywall.

By submitting your email address you are agreeing to Region Group's terms and conditions and privacy policy.