The rich get richer as Terry Snow ponies up the cash for Grammar

Masquara said :

chewy14 said :

Masquara said :

Things should be set up so that a school that receives an $8 million donation cedes the equivalent taxpayer funding to be applied to a poorer school. Similar to applying income thresholds for welfare payments.

Yes, because that will definitely encourage more rich people to give money to schools.

Yes, because regardless, taxpayer’s money will be better protected when a rich school doesn’t need it. No donation, no drama. I don’t care whether rich people give money to rich schools or not. But if they do, it privileges those rich schools above the rest. So there’s the need for a mechanism to compensate the taxpayer for any unnecessary contribution. See?

Completely disagree. Any donation to education is a good thing, there’s no way we should be punishing schools for being able to generate extra funds.

I suppose you think schools that do other forms of fundraising should have their funds cut also?

miz said :

Masquara, that’s a breathtakingly deluded statement!
It feeds into the misapprehension that people earning a pretty nice income are ‘doing it tough’ – see http://www.petermartin.com.au/2013/05/not-rich-why-weve-no-idea-what-what-we.html

An elite school is one that excludes most simply on a financial basis. Canberra Grammar certainly fits that bill. Most people, even in rather prosperous Canberra, cannot afford it. I know a lot of people in Canberra, having grown up here, and the only people I know who are in a position to send their kids to Boys Grammar (family) are a DI couple who are both EL2 in the APS, and they readily admit that are having to significantly extend their mortgage to do so.

What is galling to me is that CG gets more than its share of fed govt funding due to the inequitable arrangements that have been in place since JWH – more than a decade – and a lot of private schools have benefited substantially from this windfall, not to mention that people understandably ‘follow the money’, reducing our previously excellent public sector to a ‘safety net’. This is not how universal education should be.

I’m sure Mr Snow could have found a more worthy recipient if he had put his mind to it, a la Bill Gates.

As I understand the general difference between private and public schools is the former have to pay for their land and most improvements wheras the latter gets 100% funding from the government (federal, state/territory). On-going expenditure for teachers salaries and administartion costs are funded by school fees in the private schools and the taxpayer in the public system.
I know people on very modest income who have elected to put their children through private schools and in doing so these parents make sacrifices that other people wouldn’t be prepared to do so it is more about choice than economic means.

Masquara, that’s a breathtakingly deluded statement!
It feeds into the misapprehension that people earning a pretty nice income are ‘doing it tough’ – see http://www.petermartin.com.au/2013/05/not-rich-why-weve-no-idea-what-what-we.html

An elite school is one that excludes most simply on a financial basis. Canberra Grammar certainly fits that bill. Most people, even in rather prosperous Canberra, cannot afford it. I know a lot of people in Canberra, having grown up here, and the only people I know who are in a position to send their kids to Boys Grammar (family) are a DI couple who are both EL2 in the APS, and they readily admit that are having to significantly extend their mortgage to do so.

What is galling to me is that CG gets more than its share of fed govt funding due to the inequitable arrangements that have been in place since JWH – more than a decade – and a lot of private schools have benefited substantially from this windfall, not to mention that people understandably ‘follow the money’, reducing our previously excellent public sector to a ‘safety net’. This is not how universal education should be.

I’m sure Mr Snow could have found a more worthy recipient if he had put his mind to it, a la Bill Gates.

Minor correction: Canberra Grammar is not an elite school.

Rich philanthropists have always been keen to support their alma maters, nothing particularly interesting here. Not even the outpourings of socialist envy should be cause for remark.

2604 said :

But you have to acknowledge how hypocritical it is for Alan Kerlin to attack Terry Snow for not giving money to disadvantaged people when Kerlin is giving no money himself, despite clearly having the capacity to do so.

Utter self-serving bollocks.

He criticised Terry Snow for giving money to the already privileged, rather than the disadvantaged.

The only hypocrisy here is you sitting on your fat ass arguing that someone who is noted for their engagement in the community should do more.

chewy14 said :

2604 said :

Gungahlin Al said :

2604 said :

Just out of interest Al, how much money have you pumped into Cranleigh and other underprivileged ACT/QBN schools recently?

Smartalec. I put plenty of what I can afford – time – into the community, and have for many years. How about you?

So the answer to my question is “zero” – you expect others to donate money to underprivileged schools, but don’t donate any money yourself. Ostensibly because you can’t “afford” it, although you can obviously afford to live in an affluent suburb, in a brand new house with hydronic heating and duette blinds and an evacuated tube solar hot water system and all those other expensive add-ons you keep mentioning.

Please, I don’t think you can attack a bloke for not giving all his money to education and not living in a cardboard box.

I completely disagree with Gungahlin Als first statement but you can’t discount the monetary value of countless hours of community work, he does give back to the community.

I don’t expect anyone to be giving “all his money to education”. But you have to acknowledge how hypocritical it is for Alan Kerlin to attack Terry Snow for not giving money to disadvantaged people when Kerlin is giving no money himself, despite clearly having the capacity to do so.

I’m aware that Al spent six years with GCC, lobbying the ACT Government to spend more money in Gungahlin. But that isn’t “community work” and you can’t compare it with charity work, either. Charity and community work is altruistic, lobbying is driven by self-interest.

Chip said :

Canberra Grammar may plan to use this centre to help attract high fee paying students from Asia. If a respected private school can offer a few courses in which these students will excel without much effort, those students can then concentrate their efforts on english, maths, science. They pay big fees plus their families often give generously to school projects. Could even generate some more activity for the airport plus create chances for Canberra movers and shakers to form beneficial relationships with influential parents from our north.

This theory fits very well with the new millionaire visas that the government is introducing. The ACT Labor government will support it also as an influx of offshore property investors will boost the flagging real estate fortunes of the ACT.
At the end of the day Mr Snow is a businessman as well as a philanthropist.

chewy14 said :

Masquara said :

Things should be set up so that a school that receives an $8 million donation cedes the equivalent taxpayer funding to be applied to a poorer school. Similar to applying income thresholds for welfare payments.

Yes, because that will definitely encourage more rich people to give money to schools.

Yes, because regardless, taxpayer’s money will be better protected when a rich school doesn’t need it. No donation, no drama. I don’t care whether rich people give money to rich schools or not. But if they do, it privileges those rich schools above the rest. So there’s the need for a mechanism to compensate the taxpayer for any unnecessary contribution. See?

2604 said :

Gungahlin Al said :

2604 said :

Just out of interest Al, how much money have you pumped into Cranleigh and other underprivileged ACT/QBN schools recently?

Smartalec. I put plenty of what I can afford – time – into the community, and have for many years. How about you?

So the answer to my question is “zero” – you expect others to donate money to underprivileged schools, but don’t donate any money yourself. Ostensibly because you can’t “afford” it, although you can obviously afford to live in an affluent suburb, in a brand new house with hydronic heating and duette blinds and an evacuated tube solar hot water system and all those other expensive add-ons you keep mentioning.

Please, I don’t think you can attack a bloke for not giving all his money to education and not living in a cardboard box.

I completely disagree with Gungahlin Als first statement but you can’t discount the monetary value of countless hours of community work, he does give back to the community.

Canberra Grammar may plan to use this centre to help attract high fee paying students from Asia. If a respected private school can offer a few courses in which these students will excel without much effort, those students can then concentrate their efforts on english, maths, science. They pay big fees plus their families often give generously to school projects. Could even generate some more activity for the airport plus create chances for Canberra movers and shakers to form beneficial relationships with influential parents from our north.

Gungahlin Al said :

2604 said :

Just out of interest Al, how much money have you pumped into Cranleigh and other underprivileged ACT/QBN schools recently?

Smartalec. I put plenty of what I can afford – time – into the community, and have for many years. How about you?

So the answer to my question is “zero” – you expect others to donate money to underprivileged schools, but don’t donate any money yourself. Ostensibly because you can’t “afford” it, although you can obviously afford to live in an affluent suburb, in a brand new house with hydronic heating and duette blinds and an evacuated tube solar hot water system and all those other expensive add-ons you keep mentioning.

Tetranitrate said :

poetix said :

And Tetranite, your idea of funding being available for all religious schools bar Anglican ones, which, incidentally, get the best academic results of all the schools, is pure discrimination.

I never specifically excluded anglican schools. However its certainly true that most exclusionary schools tend to be anglican. I’d simply suggest giving all schools the same base entitlement, and reducing government funding by 50c to the dollar for fees charged over $500 or somesuch.

Obviously this isnt costed or anything, but its a reasonable principle.

Firstly, sorry I spelt your user name incorrectly.

As to your suggestion, I find it bizarre that people who are already paying tax, would be punished, in a sense, for spending money on education. If I spend $20,000 a year on holidays, but send my child to a free, or low-fee school, that’s fine. But if I spend that money on fees, the school should be penalised? Weird. My income is the same in either case. Isn’t it good to spend the money on education?

I agree that very poor schools need more money, but that’s different from punishing other schools because they charge higher fees. That reeks of dragging some schools down, rather than building up others.

poetix said :

And Tetranite, your idea of funding being available for all religious schools bar Anglican ones, which, incidentally, get the best academic results of all the schools, is pure discrimination.

I never specifically excluded anglican schools. However its certainly true that most exclusionary schools tend to be anglican. I’d simply suggest giving all schools the same base entitlement, and reducing government funding by 50c to the dollar for fees charged over $500 or somesuch. Obviously this isnt costed or anything, but its a reasonable principle.

Yet when you’re a parent, the question of ‘what is the best for my child?’ tends to override the larger questions of social justice. When ED is a parent, I doubt his children will have their educational pathway based solely on an idea of what should be, rather than what is.

This sounds like it will present wonderful opportunities for the boys who can use the new resource (and the others who may get access). As to the gap year comment, going to China with a good knowledge of the language and culture will make the year more enjoyable and practical.

And Tetranite, your idea of funding being available for all religious schools bar Anglican ones, which, incidentally, get the best academic results of all the schools, is pure discrimination.

willact said :

The ACT & Federal governments should immediately pull $8 million dollars of Government out of Canberra Grammar and give it to much needed public & indigenous education. Terry Snow is free to do what he likes with his money, but this really highlights the inequality in our present funding system. Canberra Grammar doesn’t NEED an extra $8 million but there are plenty of public schools and institutions that do!

Well I’d be happy to see the whole system redesigned so schools like Grammar don’t get funding from federal or state governments in the first place, but the various catholic, islamic, and other non-government schools get a bit of a break (ie: those that aren’t charging 20k a year). A lot of those schools are not ‘rich’, and charge fees just to replicate the money per student (or sometimes even less on net) public schools get. If you were to give them the same funding as public schools, fees would disappear completely.

It doesn’t much matter what goes on at Grammar – if they want do set up their little bubble in which to nurture the blue-bloods of tomorrow, they’re free to do it. But as things stand, fees paid by parents in the catholic system in particular effectively cross-subsidizes public schools.
As I’ve said before on here, these (catholic, islamic, ect) schools are not set up as ‘exclusive’ schools, they’re just trying to cater to their section of the community, and if there are families in the area who desperately want to have their children in said school, but can’t afford the fees, the schools will usually try and make it possible for them to attend.

2604 said :

Just out of interest Al, how much money have you pumped into Cranleigh and other underprivileged ACT/QBN schools recently?

Smartalec. I put plenty of what I can afford – time – into the community, and have for many years. How about you?

To the other commenters criticising my comment, perhaps I could have worded it differently, but I don’t think the obvious sentiment behind them is any different from that of the original post. It’s an incredible donation, but could have been so much more effectively targeted.

The ACT & Federal governments should immediately pull $8 million dollars of Government out of Canberra Grammar and give it to much needed public & indigenous education. Terry Snow is free to do what he likes with his money, but this really highlights the inequality in our present funding system. Canberra Grammar doesn’t NEED an extra $8 million but there are plenty of public schools and institutions that do!

Gungahlin Al said :

He can put his money anywhere he wants. But this gets zero kudos from me.

I’m sure he’s devastated that he won’t be getting any “kudos” from you.

dtc said :

I dont think so – plenty of public schools offer languages, just not Chinese. Plenty of schools offer history or geography, but not Asia focused (as I said, I went to CGS and even 20 years ago I was able to do a subject called ‘Asian Studies’). Whether this is because of the exam system, ACT education requirements or whatever, I don’t know.

In fact Mawson Primary is a Chinese immersion school which then Melrose High school offers Chinese language. This is obviously a sentimental donation to a school he once attended. Grammar is the most expensive school in Canberra to send your child to school. So it is only for those families that can afford it.
The principal of Grammar did state that they would be sharing the facility not sure that it will be with the public sector though.

Masquara said :

Things should be set up so that a school that receives an $8 million donation cedes the equivalent taxpayer funding to be applied to a poorer school. Similar to applying income thresholds for welfare payments.

Yes, because that will definitely encourage more rich people to give money to schools.

Just out of interest Al, how much money have you pumped into Cranleigh and other underprivileged ACT/QBN schools recently?

Things should be set up so that a school that receives an $8 million donation cedes the equivalent taxpayer funding to be applied to a poorer school. Similar to applying income thresholds for welfare payments.

dph said :

gazket said :

what a fail. Go to any Asian news website and try find a story about whats happening in Australia. They are not interested in what happens here.

True. We should be educating our youth to be as ignorant & as close minded as possible. Perhaps an Alan Jones centre of excellence?

The Jones Centre For How To Give A Hummer in a Public Toilet Without Getting Anything Nasty On Your Clothes?

gazket said :

what a fail. Go to any Asian news website and try find a story about whats happening in Australia. They are not interested in what happens here.

Australians aren’t interested about what Asians are doing here either. Last week a large Chinese company bought out half of ActewAGL’s distribution grid and there has been absolutely nothing about it in the Canberra media.

gazket said :

what a fail. Go to any Asian news website and try find a story about whats happening in Australia. They are not interested in what happens here.

I wouldn’t be able to tell – they didn’t teach Asian languages where I went to school, only French (and the French media don’t care about us.)

gazket said :

what a fail. Go to any Asian news website and try find a story about whats happening in Australia. They are not interested in what happens here.

True. We should be educating our youth to be as ignorant & as close minded as possible. Perhaps an Alan Jones centre of excellence?

So there’s this phrase, effective altruism. I don’t think this comes close to being that.

Heavs said :

I’d love to see if ACT Education has a policy on donations. Because I reckon if he had said ‘here is $8m and I want you to use it for this, this and this’ they would pop it into consolidated revenue and choose to do what they wanted with it anyway. “well we know you wanted an Asian Learning Centre at Narrabundah and Caroline Chisholm – but we think it would be money better spent to build a new classroom at our two new super schools instead. But thanks for the cash.”

There would be some sort of contract in place for sure that ensured that the donation went to where it was supposed to or the money went back to the person making the donation.

Turning around and saying “thanks for the donation, we’re however going to ignore your wishes” is a really good way of ensuring you never get donations again.

what a fail. Go to any Asian news website and try find a story about whats happening in Australia. They are not interested in what happens here.

Gungahlin Al said :

dtc said :

On the other hand, I don’t see too many public schools offering these kind of subjects; and any donation is better than hoarding (coughginacough); plus I feel a bit ‘mean’ criticising what someone else is doing with their own money.

Isn’t that a chicken–egg thing though?

I dont think so – plenty of public schools offer languages, just not Chinese. Plenty of schools offer history or geography, but not Asia focused (as I said, I went to CGS and even 20 years ago I was able to do a subject called ‘Asian Studies’). Whether this is because of the exam system, ACT education requirements or whatever, I don’t know.

On thinking about this further, I wonder whether a public school could actually accept a donation such as this. I’m sure there would be rules against it – esp if the donor wanted his name on it.

Gungahlin Al said :

He can put his money anywhere he wants. But this gets zero kudos from me. What would have impressed would have been pumping such funds into the most underprivileged school(s) in Canberra. Including places like Cranleigh.

Find the worst NAPLAN results in town (inc QBYN), and really bring about change…

dtc said :

On the other hand, I don’t see too many public schools offering these kind of subjects; and any donation is better than hoarding (coughginacough); plus I feel a bit ‘mean’ criticising what someone else is doing with their own money.

Isn’t that a chicken–egg thing though?

I’d love to see if ACT Education has a policy on donations. Because I reckon if he had said ‘here is $8m and I want you to use it for this, this and this’ they would pop it into consolidated revenue and choose to do what they wanted with it anyway. “well we know you wanted an Asian Learning Centre at Narrabundah and Caroline Chisholm – but we think it would be money better spent to build a new classroom at our two new super schools instead. But thanks for the cash.”

Gungahlin Al said :

He can put his money anywhere he wants. But this gets zero kudos from me.

I doubt very much that Mr Snow was looking for kudos from you.

All valid points, but at the end of the day it is a donation towards education and therefore not a bad thing.

HiddenDragon said :

There are other people in Canberra with deep pockets (even if not quite as deep as Mr Snow), so perhaps one or more of them (particularly if a public school education was part of their path to success) might be inspired by this very worthy example to do something significant for public education.

Tax payers do significant things for public education every time they have tax deducted from their pay and our current government has contributed enourmously by building all those GFC inspired school halls on borrowed money which will be repaid by the taxpayer as well. That’s significant.

He can put his money anywhere he wants. But this gets zero kudos from me. What would have impressed would have been pumping such funds into the most underprivileged school(s) in Canberra. Including places like Cranleigh.

Find the worst NAPLAN results in town (inc QBYN), and really bring about change…

dtc said :

On the other hand, I don’t see too many public schools offering these kind of subjects; and any donation is better than hoarding (coughginacough); plus I feel a bit ‘mean’ criticising what someone else is doing with their own money.

Isn’t that a chicken–egg thing though?

There are other people in Canberra with deep pockets (even if not quite as deep as Mr Snow), so perhaps one or more of them (particularly if a public school education was part of their path to success) might be inspired by this very worthy example to do something significant for public education.

The Asian Century concept being embraced by Mr Snow and CGS appears to be at odds with Canberra University’s outlook who are axing two Asian language programmes because of the withdrawal of some Federal funding to offset the cost of the Gonski scheme for primary and secondary schools.
At the same time, Canberra University have received a $21 million “loan” from the ACT Government to build more student accommodation an a $5 million grant to establish a “sports precinct”.
Long live “The Brumbie Century”.

FioBla said :

What about a cage fighting ring for Caroline Chisolm School?

Good suggestion, but a few chook raffles at teh Chisholm Tavern would probably be quicker.

FioBla said :

What about a cage fighting ring for Caroline Chisolm School?

That’s what the amphitheatre is for!

What about a cage fighting ring for Caroline Chisolm School?

Yes, its good to see Terry putting his money where his mouth is and donating to the rich….

(yes, yes, I know, people sacrifice to go to Grammar, not everyone is rich. Hey, I went there myself and know all about it. I also know that even 20 years ago the school had more resources than my kid’s public school has today).

Its kinda like how everyone in the US donates to Harvard or Yale. US writer Gregg Easterbrook has some good thoughts on why donating to rich schools is more to satisfy the ego of the donator than any need. see here http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/080930 and scroll down just more than 1/2 way to the bit headed ‘Stop Giving to Harvard’

Quote from that article

[i] For that matter, the bang-for-the-buck of donations is 10 times higher in the developing world. Carroll Bogert, Harvard ’83, is among the founders of Harvard Alumni for Social Action, which is urging the school’s alums to stop giving to Harvard and give instead to African schools such as University of Dar es Salaam in Tanzania. There, a “gift” is really a gift, since it serves the poor rather than the donor’s ego [/i]

On the other hand, I don’t see too many public schools offering these kind of subjects; and any donation is better than hoarding (coughginacough); plus I feel a bit ‘mean’ criticising what someone else is doing with their own money.