Light rail and Woden interchange procurement underway

“Still musing and daydreaming about minor details such as crossing the lake…?” Nah mate read the article… procurement is underway. You can keep “musing” if you like but the rest of us are moving forward. If you’re worried about how a rail system could possibly cross a body of water I suggest you take a trip to Sydney, change at Central for Circular Quay and check out the trains going over the harbour via that marvel of technology, the Sydney Harbour Bridge.

Astro,
I agree, they can cross the lake. For an enormous amount of cash. To deliver a service that is slower than the current buses. Great.

You may be “moving forward” or whatever the latest buzzword is, but the rest of us are actually paying hand over fist for this white elephant that all evidence shows isn’t needed.

Hi chewy, “an enormous amount of cash” well maybe just have a look around the world to see how many rail trips over bridges there are. (Hint: a lot) If you don’t think poor, impoverished little Canberra can afford it then you’ve probably taken a certain viewpoint that no amount of logic can dissuade. May be a more prudent course of action to try, and enjoy, your future trips on the light rail. (Nice to see the Feds kicking in some cash too 😉

Astro,
No I’m happy to spend money that has been justified by solid business cases that show value for money.

Perhaps you could link one for this project?

Oh that’s right, no such business case exists. Because the costs far outweigh the benefits.

You’ve clearly taken a viewpoint that any amount of money is justified if you like the end product and no actual evidence would dissuade you of your ignorance.

Unfortunately, those who actually know what they’re talking about will continue to call out the folly of the wasted billions being spent here.

…”those who actually know what they are talking about…” wonder who they would be? The Federal Government supports the business case for light rail, as does the Federal opposition, ACT Government and ACT opposition. t’s pretty hard to find anyone beyond a handful of curmudgeonly old baby boomers, who are still shaking their fists and rattling their zimmer frames about it. It’s commonly called “flogging a dead horse.”

Astro,
And yet you can provide no evidence or documentation to show the project makes sense and is the best use of taxpayer dollars.

Your emotional statements about dissenters to the project aren’t a substitute for evidence. Although we both know you don’t actually have any, which is why you constantly try to deflect.

Although I do find it amusing you think the fact that the government has decided to do something as evidence that it’s a good decision. If the government gave every citizen a Ferrari, you’d find it was popular as well.

Hi Chewy, as mentioned previously the evidence is on the ACT government website. I’m sure you already know this and just won’t accept it. However, if you want to write a stern letter to any of the above mentioned (Federal government and ACT government) telling them why they are wrong then you should do that. I’m sure they’ll be interested to hear about your superior economic wisdom. Cheers.

A bit of respect for the older generation wouldn’t go astray, astro2.

Governments (and their elected members who have no personal accountability) have no commercial judgement so why should we agree with them? Look at the failed pet projects the ACT government has already backed.

Astro,
And as previously advised I’ve read all the information on the ACT government’s website and no such information as you are claiming exists.

If you don’t want to look like a fool, then you’ll have to be specific with exact links and documents.

The fact that we both know you can’t and won’t do that is telling.

Just google it bud. Easy. As Paul Keating used to say “The dogs bark and the caravan moves on.” In this case the light rail has definitely moved on. A small handful of people just don’t want to see that. (The Federal Government obviously gets it otherwise they wouldn’t be investing.)

Astro,
Thanks for freely admitting you can’t support your position with evidence and instead rely on emotional arguments. Although that type of deliberate ignorance explains perfectly why we end up with the government’s we do.

The city of Canberra certainly is become denser, although not in the way you think.

Melbourne does use rails embedded in concrete on newer sections of track, they also use rails in ballast too like a normal train.

The method that is most common in Melbourne is rails on sleepers that are then encased in concrete or hot mix asphalt. That is a cheaper construction method but has a far higher maintenance cost.

If a rail needs replacement the whole roadway needs to be ripped up to get the rail out.

Melbourne continues to use this method because the vast majority of the track is in the middle of active roadways so they use it because it’s quick to replace. To replace with the type used here would need week long road closures which just won’t happen. So they wear the higher maintenance cost.

The method used here and also in Sydney, Newcastle, Gold Coast has a higher upfront cost but as the tracks are held in channels in the concrete base through a chemical adhesive if the rails need repairing they can easily be removed and replaced. This reduces the maintenance cost as the concrete base will last several trac replacements.

If “the people of Canberra” have put their heads in the sand” (by not agreeing with your viewpoint) then so have the people of Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Newcastle, the Gold Coast, Perth and Adelaide, all of which have rail (light and/or heavy) rail systems as well as buses. Oh, and by the way all the aforementioned cities and regions don’t have Greens government so there goes that argument.

Astro,
So your argument is other cities have jumped off a cliff, we should too?

Perhaps you’d like to link the business case showing light rail Is a smart move for Canberra?

Oh that’s right, it doesnt exist. Sorry.

Thanks for apologising, but there’s really no need. Your entitled to your opinion, even if it’s not supported by what is happening across Australia in regards to transport. Fear not, the other cities mentioned in my previous post are doing quite fine. All the information on light rail is available on the ACT government website in transport canberra.

Yes i am sorry Astro.

That ignorant people still get a vote that counts equally to those who are informed. It always leads to poor outcomes like we see with light rail where emotion prevails over evidence and logic.

“All the information on light rail is available on the ACT government website in transport canberra.”

Thanks for admitting that the relevant documentation doesn’t exist because as you say, all the information is on their website.

Although i will give you credit for being open that you dont value proper planning and that any expenditure can be justified in your head because other much larger cities can afford it.

That’s very sad. Now it’s democracy’s fault that light rail is so popular. Cheer up chewy – under a democratic system you don’t have to use it either. You can shake your fist and curse as it glides smoothly and silently by.

Astro,
And yet I have to pay for it and see the degradation of other services because of the huge drain on taxpayer dollars that gives very little benefit.

Although interesting that you now seem to be a supporter of the Federal Government and all their decisions. You and Scott Morrison certainly do have a lot in common.

Been said many times before stage 1 at least is basically paying for itself. There has been no massive upfront cost funded directly out of the ACT budget and hence depriving others functions including Action buses. In fact as a result of light rail Action has been able to utilise the assets that were freed up on other services. Whilst many bemoan the new network and consider it to be a loss fact is there are more services operating than before.

JC,
Even if it was “paying for itself” which is doubtful, that isn’t actually a good thing as the opportunity costs of that money being spent here is huge. It is most certainly depriving other government functions of much needed funding.

And the first stage has by far the best economic return, future stages will not come close to breaking even, so why on earth would we do it.

Canberra was designed to have private cars as the main method of transport which raises a dilemma for the current government who are trying on one hand to eliminate all cars and on the other hand they are trying to replace ICE powered cars with EVs.

Be they electric or ICE they are still cars.

Walter B-G designed Canberra to have light rail or tram system to suit its expected growth.

WBG had planned a few heavy rail lines but the emphasis was on lots of space for private motor vehicles all over Canberra and that gives us something that most other world capitals don’t have.

I think your record is well and truely broken.

How many times do you think this should be done? The light rail has been looked at repeatedly in the time Ive lived in Canberra – since the late 80’s.
Where is YOUR evidence that a rapid bus transportation system would be better in the long term? I know if you look at a 5 year time frame it’s cheaper, but the longer out you go the better the light rail is, the cross over point is about 15 years, after that light rail is cheaper.

The government should do the analysis. It was most recently comprehensively analysed by Infrastructure Australia for light rail stage 1 which found bus rapid transport provided similar benefits at half the cost. The ACt Auditor General found LR provided a return of about 5O cents for every dollar spent .
As someone involved in Canberra’s planning and development for over 40 years I am not aware of any analysis demonstrating light rail should be developed Could you provide the references? There are many successful busways as a search of Wikipedia would reveal

No busway anywhere in the world has provided the same level of urban renewal as lightrail (or heavy rail) continually does.

There of of course successful bus ways such as Adelaides but success measured in other ways which are not applicable here.

Also some very selective quoting of reports that support your narrow view, I could probably do the same to suit my view of the world too. But won’t waste my time as it is pointless.

Oh and I am certain the government wouldn’t enter into a contact to build something like stage 1 lightrail without undertaking appropriate due diligence.

Are you serious? You have a blind faith in the ACT government. Where is the evidence supporting the government ‘s due diligence? Where is the analysis justifying the extension? Is it, trust me I am from the government? The government should be transparent in decision making.

JC,
I’d love you to “selectively” quote reports on Light Rail showing it’s viability for Canberra. Please do so.

The problem is, no such reports exist because the government’s own information shows it isn’t viable.

Just admit you don’t care about the actual evidence. Its all about the feels.

Also, your last sentence is quite possible the funniest thing I’ve read on this website.

Chewy not true at all. Simple as that.