27 November 2023

'Stretched too thinly': Double ACT Senate spots to ensure better representation, says committee report

| Claire Fenwicke
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ACT independent Senator David Pocock

ACT independent Senator David Pocock wants the recommendation around Territory representation to go even further. Photo: Michelle Kroll.

The ACT could have double the number of senators come the next election if the Albanese Government agrees to the recommendation from a new report.

A Commonwealth joint standing committee into electoral matters has made 21 recommendations, including increasing the number of Territory senators from two to four for a three-year term.

During hearings, ACT independent Senator David Pocock had argued the extent to which senators represented the interests of their state had “diminished considerably” over time, as senators from major political parties “prioritise party discipline rather than state representation”.

“The principle of one vote, one value could be applied to the Senate by using Australia as a single electorate with senators elected by proportional representation,” he argued.

“This mechanism would align proportional representation as a method of electing Senators with the goal of one vote, one value, resulting in a more representative system.”

It was pointed out during hearings that the population of the ACT is roughly 81.5 per cent of the population of Tasmania, yet that state elects six times as many senators as the ACT.

But Mr Pocock wanted the committee’s recommendation to go even further.

“Rather than simply stipulating a new number (four), the base level of representation should be legislated as needing to be more than one-third, but less than two-thirds of the States’ Senate allocation,” he wrote in his additional comments to the report.

“While four senators fit within this, adding such guidelines would ensure that Territory representation would grow proportionally with the electorate as it will for the States, thus providing a permanent structural solution aligned with the values of representative democracy.

“This provides a durable solution that can be used into the future should the level of representation from the States change. Territories should not have to continually fight to ensure that they are fairly represented in the Federal Parliament.”

This suggestion would result in the ACT and the NT having six senators each.

In line with other jurisdictions, Mr Pocock also suggested increasing terms from three to six years, commencing on 1 July following the election.

“This would mean three senators up for election every three years,” he said.

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The Coalition senators on the panel issued a dissenting report, stating increasing the number of Territory senators “in isolation” would, in fact, “worsen malapportionment” (ie, an inequitable or unsuitable appointment of representatives to a legislative body).

They pointed out in the last election that 16,753,557 voters elected 36 senators across Australia’s six states, on average representing 465,377 votes per senator. However, the ACT had 314,025 votes, and the NT 145,851 votes, to elect two senators each.

“As such, a senator representing a State required four times as many votes as a senator representing a Territory,” their dissenting statement noted.

“If [this recommendation] is adopted, then a senator from New South Wales would require 25 times more votes than a senator from the Northern Territory to be elected. The Coalition members of the committee oppose increasing the number of Territory senators on the grounds that it would be the greatest level of malapportionment since Federation.”

Ultimately, the committee’s stance was that it wasn’t appropriate to base territory representation in the Senate on population statistics.

“State representation in the Senate is not based on population, and it is unconvincing to argue that territory representation in the Senate should be,” it stated.

“The Committee considers that territory representation should reflect the intent of the Constitution such that territory representation should be considered on a similar basis to the representation of the smaller states in the Senate.

“The Federal Parliament’s ability to over-rule territory legislation further highlights the need for the two territories to be appropriately represented in the Parliament.”

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It’s a move that the government’s already been urged to adopt, with the Australia Institute noting the country’s population had increased by 10 million since the number of parliamentarians last increased in the 1980s.

“[This is] leaving MPs and senators stretched too thinly. More politicians means more accessible local members and more attention on community issues,” Democracy and Accountability Program director Bill Browne said.

“An increase in the number of senators for the ACT and Northern Territory would be very welcome, bringing their representation closer to what other smaller jurisdictions enjoy and ensuring each territory would have a representative in both opposition and government party rooms.”

A separate recommendation called on a possible inquiry into increasing the size of the House of Representatives to reduce malapportionment and improve the ratio of electors to MPs.

Several other recommendations focused on transparency and accountability in government, including ending the ‘media blackout’ on political advertising during election periods, ensuring postal votes are returned directly to the Australian Electoral Commission instead of being collected by political parties first, and exempting registered charities from donation caps (should donation caps be implemented).

The government has no deadline to respond to the recommendations. However, it has been urged to do so quickly so that any electoral reforms can be implemented and understood well before the next federal election.

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Why would we want more useless, seat shining toffs doing SFA, except lining their own pockets

@Futureproof
The usual well thought out, rational response from you, Fp

A better option would be to increase the number of Federal representatives where needed (both upper and lower house) and disband the useless middle tier of Government…State and Territory Parliaments/Legislative Assemblies.

How about consistent national policies and departments on things such as Education, Health, Law and Order, Transport, Emergency Services, Disaster Relief and Infrastructure….and then leave the day-to-day Garbage Collection, Potholes, Playgrounds and Trams run by a local council?

Get rid of the useless middle tier.

That would likely need a referendum to change the constitutional power divide between state and federal governments.

@Adam Driver
It would absolutely require a referendum, Adam. The states are firmly entrenched in the constitution, and, given it would require a majority of states to agree to abolish themselves, there’s a snowball’s chance in hell of it happening – despite the fact there are a multitude of good reasons for proceeding down that path (including those covered by longlunch).

HiddenDragon8:32 pm 28 Nov 23

Rather than, as it too often does, talking up the case for ever more government and ever more confiscatory taxes on people they don’t approve of to pay for it, the Australia Institute should turn its attention to how we can achieve more with current levels of public spending and how real wealth can be generated to keep the three ring circus going when the once in two centuries mining boom comes to an inevitable end.

As to the pressures on federal MPs and Senators, remembering that the United States constitution was a powerful influence on the drafting of the Australian constitution, it has to be pointed out that from the least populous US state – Wyoming – with about one and a quarter times Canberra’s population, to the most populous – California – with more than one and a half times Australia’s population, they all get by with two Senators (and far fewer lower house reps per capita than Australia) and still manage to deal with the legislative and committees agenda of a superpower.

A much clearer delineation between the responsibilities of the three levels of government (so that federal politicians’ offices spent somewhat less time dealing with what are really state/territory/local government issues) along with a few extra staff for independent and minor party senators, might go a long way to deal with this issue.

Correct yet there are plenty of complaints coming from the US left-wing since it gives disproportionate power to rural (and typically more right-wing) voters. Everyone should have the same voting power.

The committee’s assertion “State representation in the Senate is not based on population, and it is unconvincing to argue that territory representation in the Senate should be” is quite sound.

If the Territory allocation of Senators is increased to 4, then it is still well below the number allocated to the states, but affords Territorians a greater say (via their representatives) in determining federal legislation – which affects them equally as it does any Australian citizen in each of the states.

Except their reasoning for this is to compare it to the constitutional basis for State representation in the Senate.

Which is quite unconvincing and not remotely sound. Because the territories are not states (rightly so) and the original constitutional basis for Senate representation of State’s rights is anachronistic and does not reflect the way the current Senate works regardless.

Even David Pocock recognises this:

“Senator David Pocock had argued the extent to which senators represented the interests of their state had “diminished considerably” over time, as senators from major political parties “prioritise party discipline rather than state representation”.”

Of course it’s also totally coincidental that the proposal would benefit their side of politics as well.

“but affords Territorians a greater say (via their representatives) in determining federal legislation – which affects them equally as it does any Australian citizen in each of the states.”

Federal legislation that affects them “equally” but for which you believe they should have significantly higher proportional representation and power over in the Senate.

I guess all citizens should be equal, just some more equal than others.

@chewy14
“Except their reasoning for this is to compare it to the constitutional basis for State representation in the Senate.
Which is quite unconvincing and not remotely sound. Because the territories are not states …”

Unconvincing and not remotely sound to you, chewy – which doesn’t prove anything.

You seem to have forgotten, Senators are elected to represent Australia’s states and territories, which is why it is sometimes referred to as the the “states’ (and, by implication, territores’) house”. The fact remains that there are 8 jurisdictions which have representatives in the Senate. Irrespective of the fact that the territories are not states (wow – thank you for that amazing insightful observation), the Territories do have representation.

In terms of proportional representation, 6 of the jurisdictions (75%) have 72, of the 76, seats in the Senate (94.7%). So by increasing the number of territorian Senators to 4 each, it would give those territorian citizens a greater say, through their representatives, in the review of legislation.

“I guess all citizens should be equal, just some more equal than others.”
Yes – the states’ citizens would continue to be more equal and have THE greater say, as their representatives would still occupy 90% of the seats in the Senate.

As you partially cited Senator Pocock’s comment, it’s also worth noting that under his proposal, the Territories would have somewhere between 5 and 7 Senators (‘… more than one-third, but less than two-thirds of the States’ Senate allocation.’)

“… it’s also totally coincidental that the proposal would benefit their side of politics as well”
I don’t know who you mean by “their side of politics” is. Nevertheless, whoever it refers to, it’s nothing but speculation on your part, without any basis in fact.

“Unconvincing and not remotely sound to you, chewy – which doesn’t prove anything.”

Unconvincing to anyone with a modicum of sense who can logically assess the arguments being put forward as I have done.

“You seem to have forgotten, Senators are elected to represent Australia’s states and territories,”

Well no, I made specific mention of what they are supposed to do vs what actually occurs in practice in my comment. I even quoted David Pocock (who is in support of more representation) to provide context to it. The voting patterns of the Senate over decades show this completely.

“Irrespective of the fact that the territories are not states (wow – thank you for that amazing insightful observation), the Territories do have representation”

Well it seemingly needs to continually be said because it’s studiously ignored when attempting to compare the territories representation to the states as if they were the same. But only when it suits of course.

“Yes – the states’ citizens would continue to be more equal and have THE greater say, as their representatives would still occupy 90% of the seats in the Senate.”

What? They also have 97% of the population. Which when broken down, has even greater levels of misapportionment for specific states. Where this proposal would leave the power of votes in the territories tens of times more valuable than NSW, Vic and QLD voters. The idea of one vote, one value is specifically and deliberately discounted here. It’s clearly inequitable for a Federal Parliament.

“I don’t know who you mean by “their side of politics” is. Nevertheless, whoever it refers to, it’s nothing but speculation on your part, without any basis in fact.”

It’s not remotely speculative and is wholly based on voting patterns as has been explained to you in detail previously using actual election results over multiple elections. To which you provided no quantative response showing either a wilful ignorance to the data or a simple lack of comprehension skills. The change is clearly designed to provide greater representation from progressive parties/independents, due to the voting patterns in both the ACT and NT.

The sole reason provided for additional representation in the committee is that it apparently should protect smaller jurisdictions. Yet almost no evidence is provided as to where this has caused existing problems in governance previously.

No rationale provided as to how the proposed change would achieve local governance improvements considering the strong partisan based nature of the current Senate operation.

And no evidence provided as to how this would benefit the overall national governance of Australia which the Senate is meant to provide.

To call it a blatant attempt to gerrymander representation to suit the progressive side of politics would be an understatement.

It’s no surprise then that you support it but more objective people should be horrified no matter which side of politics was doing it. I’d say the same thing if more conservative parties tried to do similar. It really highlights the hypocrisy so prevalent in modern politics.

@chewy14
“Unconvincing to anyone with a modicum of sense who can logically assess the arguments being put forward as I have done.”
chewy14 speak for ‘because I say so’. I haven’t seen you logically assess any argument – all I’ve seen is your blithering about territories not being states and totally irrelevant population/per capita comparisons.

” I made specific mention of what they are supposed to do”
Oh more chewy14 speak … I’ve told you how the Senate should operate
“The voting patterns of the Senate over decades show this completely” and those fools have the temerity to not vote how chewy14 thinks they should.

“They also have 97% of the population.”
So what? Yawn … wash-rinse-repeat. Senate representation is not based on population – it’s state (as per the constitution) and territory (as per legislation) based.

“The sole reason provided for additional representation in the committee is that it apparently should protect smaller jurisdictions.”
That’s exactly why the composition of the Senate as prescribed in the constitution was implemented – to protect the smaller states. This is just an extension of that protection, to include the territories via legislation. Otherwise why not just let NSW, Vic and Qld determine all federal legislation based on weight of numbers?

“No rationale provided as to how this would achieve local governance improvements considering the strong partisan based nature of the current Senate operation”
Given the increase in “non-party” Senate representation (and pleasingly HoR representation) in recent years, and hopefully this will continue to rise, I believe governance has started to improve … cross bench Senators are actually using their vote to hold legislation to scrutiny, as witnessed by the number of amendments proposed and accepted by those cross bench Senators, including Pocock.

“It’s not remotely speculative and is wholly based on voting patterns as has been explained to you in detail previously”
“To call it a blatant attempt to gerrymander representation to suit the progressive side of politics would be an understatement”
Is that so, chewy14 … perhaps you can refresh my memory on that as I don’t recall seeing you provide any such analysis in the past. In fact, I’d suggest that based on the outcome of the last Federal election, had there been 4 ACT Senate positions up for grabs, Seselja would probably have been successful. And anyone with a modicum of sense would certainly not categorise Seselja as progressive.

“more objective people should be horrified” … more chewy14 speak for ‘everyone should see things through my eyes’.

“I haven’t seen you logically assess any argument”

Well I know you have evidence trouble reading and comprehending so this is unsurprising.

“I made specific mention of what they are supposed to do”
Oh more chewy14 speak … I’ve told you how the Senate should operate”

What? I was simple mentioning historic fact and what’s in the committee report, you’ve even agreed with it in your comment. Nothing to do with what “I” think. Too funny, see:

“You seem to have forgotten, Senators are elected to represent Australia’s states and territories, which is why it is sometimes referred to as the the “states’ (and, by implication, territores’) house”.”

I was saying that the historic basis of Senate representation was to promote states rights. Well done on disagreeing with yourself.

““The voting patterns of the Senate over decades show this completely” and those fools have the temerity to not vote how chewy14 thinks they should.”

Once again a comprehension fail. Nothing to do with how I think they should vote and everything to do with how they have and do vote. Along strict party lines. I quoted David Pocock’s statements and once again it’s in the report.

“So what? Yawn … wash-rinse-repeat. Senate representation is not based on population – it’s state (as per the constitution) and territory (as per legislation) based.”

Once again, State Senate representation is not based on population, there is nothing to say that Territory representation is or should be the same.

If you think that population isn’t releavnt provide an argument as to why other Federal territories should not also receive representation in the Senate. I’ll wait.

“Given the increase in “non-party” Senate representation (and pleasingly HoR representation) in recent years, and hopefully this will continue to rise, I believe governance has started to improve …”

Haha, and you critique my comments when you pull that evidence free opinion out there. Although funnily enough, you claim governance has improved without the need for changed Senate representation, so you’ve shot your own argument down.

We aren’t talking about increasing cross bench representation, which would require greater changes at a national level.

We are specifically talking about changes for representation of the territories.

What governance problems exist at a local and national level? Provide examples.

What options are available to fix these problems?

And why is more territory representation going to improve goverance at a local and national level? Be specific.

“Is that so, chewy14 … perhaps you can refresh my memory on that as I don’t recall seeing you provide any such analysis in the past. In fact, I’d suggest that based on the outcome of the last Federal election, had there been 4 ACT Senate positions up for grabs, Seselja would probably have been successful.”

Ah, the old selective memory again, I’m not going to go into detail again because you completely ignored it last time, but you can take a look at the results for 2022 yourself.

https://results.aec.gov.au/27966/Website/SenateStatePage-27966-ACT.htm

If there was 4 Senators on 3 year terms, the ACT would have elected:
1 ALP
1 Pocock
1 Lib
1 almost certain Green

The progressive vote dominates the ACT clearly.

https://results.aec.gov.au/27966/Website/SenateStatePage-27966-NT.htm

Similar in the NT, the 3rd Senator would be a Green, with the 4th up for grabs with strong transfers between the progressive parties who together have a much higher share of the electorate.

The net benefit to progressive parties is clear and obvious.

@chewy14
“Well I know you have evidence trouble reading and comprehending so this is unsurprising”
I only have trouble comprehending your drivel. Yet still not seeing you logically assess the argument.

“how they have and do vote. Along strict party lines …”
And I said that recent increases in cross bench membership in both chambers has started to break down that partisan nexus.

“I was saying that the historic basis of Senate representation was to promote states rights”
And since 1974, to promote Territory rights … keep up, the world has changed since 1901.

“If you think that population isn’t relevant provide an argument as to why other Federal territories should not also receive representation in the Senate.”
No need to wait, I’ll fill in the obvious gap in your knowledge.
Norfolk Island votes for and is represented by ACT Senators. Cocos(Keeling) and Christmas Islands vote for and are represented by NT Senators.

“And why is more territory representation going to improve goverance at a local and national level?”
I said I believed governance had started to improve … and with greater representation for the Territories hopefully it will improve further, especially if more independents (e.g. Professor Rubenstein) are able to get up in ACT … sorry can’t give you a guilt edge guarantee on that.
Yes it appears that the additional spots at the last election, should ACT had voted for 4 Senators, would have gone to the Libs and Greens – but not Labor. That in itself means they (the government) would have to work for those extra votes and justify the legislation to get it passed. Isn’t that what governance in the Senate is about?

I actually hate the idea that if this proposal gets up Seselja might get yet another tilt at the Senate but I can see that in the long term it will benefit the Territories and that’s why I don’t have an issue with it.

“And I said that recent increases in cross bench membership in both chambers has started to break down that partisan nexus.”

Except it hasn’t. Also, even if this was true, it’s totally irrelevant. The proposed change isn’t supposed to be around providing additional cross bench Senators, its apparently about Territory rights. Although from the tail end of your comment this seems to be at the heart of your support for the proposal.

Which if it was done on a holistic, Australia wide level, I would be fully supportive of. Wider, more proportional representation, would clearly benefit all of our country.

But making piecemeal changes to 2 territories representation because it’s easier and would benefit progressive politics is anathema to a functioning, representative democracy.

You do not fix a wider representational problem by making it worse. Which is exactly what this does.

“No need to wait, I’ll fill in the obvious gap in your knowledge.
Norfolk Island votes for and is represented by ACT Senators. Cocos(Keeling) and Christmas Islands vote for and are represented by NT Senators.”

LOL, no knowledge gap here, perhaps you should focus some more on the holes in your logic instead.

Let’s get this straight, you’re on one hand arguing that residents of the smallest territories are properly represented by being haphazardly lumped in with the larger territories and don’t need their own specific representation despite enormous spatial, social and economic differences.

But on the other hand arguing that the ACT and NT need to be protected from domination from larger states with greater than proportional representation and that the larger state senators cant represent us adequately.

Surely even you don’t really believe that.

It seems from your last comment that you’re skirting around the real reason you support the proposal, which has little to do with fixing a defined governance problem and more to do with how you think a larger crossbench would be beneficial. And seemingly more beneficial because of the specific people and politics of those who would benefit.

I’d be interested to hear whether you’d say the same if the larger senate crossbench was made up of more people like Pauline Hanson or Clive Palmer.

@chewy14
”its (sic) apparently about Territory rights”
Not apparently, it IS about Territory rights, and at a jurisdictional level. I don’t know why you keep on with the proportional population representation broken record. As I have repeatedly stated, Senate representation is at the state/territory level and there are 8 individual jurisdictions which have Senators. I’ve pointed out the disparity in the level of representation of states V territories and suggested that the proposed increase is a good move to redress that disparity.

“Wider, more proportional representation, would clearly benefit all of our country.”
Really? What a load of poppycock. We already have a parliamentary chamber where the membership is based on proportional representation – it’s called the House of Representatives. The number of members per state/territory is determined by the size of each jurisdiction’s population, which is why it’s known as “the people’s house”, and therefore NSW has the most HoR members and NT the least. Whereas, see above, the Senate membership is determined on a state/territory basis – you know “the states’ house”.

“Let’s get this straight, you’re on one hand arguing that residents of the smallest territories are properly represented by being haphazardly lumped in with the larger territories and don’t need their own specific representation …”
Where did I say that? All I did, was state a fact about their representation in the Senate? Do you want to dispute that? The quality of said representation is a matter for the citizens of those small territories to decide and if they wish to do so, petition the parliament to change it. It’s not included in the committee’s review so move on.

“… the real reason you support the proposal, which has little to do with fixing a defined governance problem and more to do with how you think a larger crossbench would be beneficial”
Not true and your feeble attempt to put a spin on my reason for supporting the proposal is pathetic and just shows how weak your argument is.
You introduced the issue of partisan politics, and I offered an opinion that I thought recent increases in the size of the crossbench was going some way to address it.
I have put forward my thoughts on the level of representation in the Territories based on the apportionment of Senators at a jurisdiction level.
Increasing the size of Territory representation in the Senate will not automatically lead to an increase in the number of crossbench Senators – that will be a matter for the electorate to determine.
And even if it does increase the size of the crossbench, which I don’t dispute would be a good outcome, are you suggesting that changes in our electoral system should be determined by voter patterns?

“I’d be interested to hear whether you’d say the same if the larger senate crossbench was made up of more people like Pauline Hanson or Clive Palmer.”
I’ve already said a downside of increasing the number of Senators in the ACT would be the potential for Seselja to have another tilt at the job. However, as I said above, that’s a matter for the ACT electorate to determine. It’s how democracy works, chewy14 – the people have their say on election day.

So, let me ask you. What is your rationale for determining 2 Senators, as opposed to 4, is the appropriate level of representation for the Territories in the Senate?

“I’ve pointed out the disparity in the level of representation of states V territories and suggested that the proposed increase is a good move to redress that disparity.”

Except there is no disparity which suggests a level of unfair treatment.

“Really? What a load of poppycock. We already have a parliamentary chamber where the membership is based on proportional representation – it’s called the House of Representatives.”

So, you disagree with David Pocock then and his suggested ideal approach.

“Whereas, see above, the Senate membership is determined on a state/territory basis – you know “the states’ house”.”

Yes for the millionth time, the States house. Not the “territories house”.

You seem affixed to the original purpose of the Senate but only when it suits you.

The territories were never included in that original rationale and it doesn’t even fit the way the current Senate operates.

“The quality of said representation is a matter for the citizens of those small territories to decide and if they wish to do so, petition the parliament to change it. It’s not included in the committee’s review so move on.”

Completely incorrect. The quality of their representation is a matter for all Australians amd most defintiely was included in the committees review. Did you read it? The reason they are ignored is because they have no direct representation in the House of Representatives because they don’t have sufficient population to justify one. So their (and our) Senate representation has been implicitly linked to population yet once again you want to pretend it doesn’t. Because it outs a clear flaw on your argument.

“Not true and your feeble attempt to put a spin on my reason for supporting the proposal”

Then why do you continually bang on about the crossbench benefits? They aren’t related to the question at hand.

“And even if it does increase the size of the crossbench, which I don’t dispute would be a good outcome, are you suggesting that changes in our electoral system should be determined by voter patterns?”

No. I’m the one arguing against changing our electoral system determined on voting patterns, which is exactly what this gerrymander does. You are the one supporting it.

“I’ve already said a downside of increasing the number of Senators in the ACT would be the potential for Seselja to have another tilt at the job.”

One person is not a downside. The overall outcome will lead to a deliberate skew to progressive politicians. Would you be happy if the LNP proposed changes that would similarly benefit more right wing politicians overall as this proposal benefits progressive ones?

Particularly when no current governance problems have been identified, nor any reasoning as to how this will benefit national governance.

“So, let me ask you. What is your rationale for determining 2 Senators, as opposed to 4, is the appropriate level of representation for the Territories in the Senate?”

The Senate numbers are directly linked to the HOR numbers (1/2 through the nexus provisions).

Currently that would suggest a reasonable Senate representation for the ACT of 1.5. So 2 is currently perfectly reasonable for a Territory that is not and never will be a State. Any change should be justified with solid reasoning and evidence of how the change will improve governance. None of that evidence exists.

@chewy14

“ Except there is no disparity which suggests a level of unfair treatment.”
In your opinion. I demonstrated how 75% of the electorates elect over 90% of the Senators … clearly a disparity in my opinion.

“So, you disagree with David Pocock then and his suggested ideal approach.”
Not at all. I disagree with you distorting his words to perpetuate your weak argument. Pocock actually said “The principle of one vote, one value could be applied to the Senate by using Australia as a single electorate with senators elected by proportional representation,”. The committee did not reject his argument but stated “…because a constitutional change would be required, this proposal would be unlikely to succeed.” And as such did not recommend this change.
I don’t have a problem with doing away with individual State/Territory representation and creating a single Australia electorate. However, as it would effectively remove the states even you have agreed will never happen. So, until it a single Australian electorate for the Senate eventuates, we have the current system of 8 electorates for the Senate.

“Yes for the millionth time, the States house. Not the “territories house”.”
No. For the millionth time, since 1974 it has become the “Territories’ house” too. The phrase “states’ house” is not ‘fixed in stone’ in the Constitution; were that the case, it would have been unconstitutional to legislate Territory representation – which was affirmed by the High Court could happen. Rather the states’ house was the method early commentators used to describe the work of the Senate. So given the makeup since 1974 it’s not unreasonable (obviously my opinion) to now refer to the Senate as the states’ and territories’ house to again reflect its work. Reject the label if you like – but it doesn’t take away Territory representation.

“ No. I’m the one arguing against changing our electoral system determined on voting patterns, which is exactly what this gerrymander does. You are the one supporting it.”
Really? I’m happy to leave it up to the electorate. It’s you who don’t want the electorate to have its say because you have decided you don’t like the outcome you predict. Besides who knows what might happen in the future? A moderate conservative such as Anthony Pesic might run as an independent and maybe snatch the fourth (if it eventuated) ACT Senate seat – given the third would probably go to the Libs. Since Pocock’s election, the Territory representation in the Senate is skewed towards progressives with Senators Gallagher, Pocock and McCarthy on the left and Senator Nampijinpa-Price on the right. So, should we now do away with Territory representation entirely because of this? No, leave it to the electorate to decide – that’s what representative democracy is about.

“The reason they are ignored is because they have no direct representation in the House of Representatives because they don’t have sufficient population to justify one. So their (and our) Senate representation has been implicitly linked to population yet once again you want to pretend it doesn’t. Because it outs a clear flaw on your argument.”
You are correct I hadn’t read the report in its entirety. However, having done so, I saw the committee did in fact momentarily consider the other territories and exclude them from the discussion – in one single sentence “Other territories are not entitled to representation in the Senate unless those territories gain representation in the House of Representatives.” There’s no mention of population but the inference is that they do not have sufficient population for HoR representation. In fact the committee’s report later goes on to say “State representation in the Senate is not based on population, and it is unconvincing to argue that territory representation in the Senate should be.” So it’s you who are pretending that there is a link between population and Senate representation.

“The Senate numbers are directly linked to the HOR numbers (1/2 through the nexus provisions).”
Is that so, chewy14? Where did you drag that formula from? Have you checked S24 of the Constitution? Let me refresh your memory:
“The House of Representatives shall be composed of members directly chosen by the people of the Commonwealth, and the number of such members shall be, as nearly as practicable, twice the number of the senators.”
The only mention of Territories in relation to this nexus provision is the 1977 High Court ruling [Attorney-General (NSW) ex rel McKellar v Commonwealth] which included the determination that S24 doesn’t apply to Territory Senators and their numbers are not counted when determining the size of the HoR.

So, let me ask you again. What is your rationale for determining 2 Senators, as opposed to 4, is the appropriate level of representation for the Territories in the Senate? Oh and this time I’ll add “factual rationale”.

“In your opinion. I demonstrated how 75% of the electorates elect over 90% of the Senators … clearly a disparity in my opinion.”

Yes, you demonstrated a meaningless comparison.

I’ve demonstrated that the constitutional backing for Senate representation doesn’t extend to the territories. That the same argument you are applying could be used similarly for other territories so your 75% figure is incorrect. And that the population covered by those states significantly exceeds 90% making the claims of “disparity” laughable.

“The committee did not reject his argument but stated “…because a constitutional change would be required, this proposal would be unlikely to succeed.”

Yes, is would be unlikely to succeed. But if more reasonable reform is impossible, it doesn’t mean that you try to make changes that actually exacerbate the existing governance problems, simply because they are “achieveable”. Change should only be made to fix a clearly defined and evidence based problem. That doesn’t exist here.

“In fact the committee’s report later goes on to say “State representation in the Senate is not based on population, and it is unconvincing to argue that territory representation in the Senate should be.”

Well yes, there is. Because once again there is no Constitutional basis for Territory Senate representation. As previous, you only seem to like talking about the Constitutional provisions when it suits.

“which included the determination that S24 doesn’t apply to Territory Senators and their numbers are not counted when determining the size of the HoR.”

I never said it applied. I said it provides a reasonable backing for existing Senate numbers, particularly for the ACT.

But the actual answer to your question is zero. There is no Constitutional backing for any specific level of Territory Senate representation, so any numbers should be linked to national goverance outcomes, not political based gerrymandering.

I’m not the one supporting a change, so don’t need to prove anything, it’s up to you to provide reasoning as to how the current situation has led to poor goverance outcomes and how the proposed change will led to improvements both locally and nationally. As I’ve shown, that reasoning doesn’t exist beyond vague motherhood statements and illogical, selective comparison to State representation.

chewy14, you said “evidence of how the change will improve governance” so what change in your view, and with reasonable conformity to the existing electoral provisions, would “improve governance”, in relation to the territories?

What really has been the point of all of this argument with JustSaying, other than mere opposition?

Is your fervent opposition the reason you said “there is no Constitutional basis for Territory Senate representation”, a patently silly misrepresentation of consitutional powers? Go ahead, challenge the existence of Territories senators in the High Court. Fail, like the challenges in 1975 and 1977.

@chewy14
“Yes, you demonstrated a meaningless comparison.”
chewy14 speak for I can’t dispute the facts about the weighting of Senators across the eight jurisdictions – so I’ll just deny it exists.

“I’ve demonstrated that the constitutional backing for Senate representation doesn’t extend to the territories.”
Oh wow. So you are more knowledgable on Constitutional matters than the High Court? The constitutional validity of the “Senate (Representation of Territories) Act 1973” was challenged in the High Court in the First Territory Senators case. The High Court found that the Act (along with the “Commonwealth Electoral Act (No. 2) 1973” and the “Representation Act 1973”) had been validly passed by both Houses of Parliament within the meaning of s.57 of the Constitution.
So, what have you demonstrated again? Seriously, chewy14, you need to stop making outlandish and unsupported statements in the hope they’ll fly.

“… you try to make changes that actually exacerbate the existing governance problems …”
Well that’s your opinion, chewy14. Unfortunately for you just another throw away line.

“I said it (S24) provides a reasonable backing for existing Senate numbers, particularly for the ACT.”
Absolutely wrong. S24 provides no backing whatsoever for ACT Senate numbers. The ACT is not, nor is any other Territory, mentioned in S24.

“I’m not the one supporting a change, so don’t need to prove anything, it’s up to you to provide reasoning as to how the current situation has led to poor goverance outcomes and how the proposed change will led to improvements both locally and nationally”
Oh right. You tried to fabricate the rationale for there being 2 Senators in ACT and NT, and when I called you out, you have decided you don’t need a rationale – the fact that you say it shouldn’t happen is enough.
I’ve stated how I believe the change will result in a more equitable representation for the Territories in the Senate, at, as I’ve said many times, jurisdictional level. In keeping with that, I think the rationale for the change provided by the Commonwealth Joint Standing Committee into Electoral Matters is sound. You’ve read the report, so you know the reasoning.

“As I’ve shown, that reasoning doesn’t exist beyond vague motherhood statements and illogical, selective comparison to State representation.”
The only person making motherhood statements is you. Just about every time you’ve tried to state something you contend to be factual (I’ll concede your reporting on the last election was factual) it’s been shown to be false.

“so what change in your view, and with reasonable conformity to the existing electoral provisions, would “improve governance”, in relation to the territories?”

No change, that’s the point. There is no current governance problem in relation to the Territories that needs fixing and the lack of supporting evidence for change is the basis of my position.

“Go ahead, challenge the existence of Territories senators in the High Court. Fail, like the challenges in 1975 and 1977.”

Can’t see anywhere that I’ve suggested I have a significant problem with the current arrangements so why would I do that?

“The constitutional validity of the “Senate (Representation of Territories) Act 1973” was challenged in the High Court in the First Territory Senators case. The High Court found that the Act (along with the “Commonwealth Electoral Act (No. 2) 1973” and the “Representation Act 1973”) had been validly passed by both Houses of Parliament within the meaning of s.57 of the Constitution.”

Justsaying,
Perhaps you need to read what I wrote. The above shows that the parliament has the ability to legislate in this area, which I have never suggested that they didn’t. But this representation is fundamentally different compared to the States from a constitutional perspective. Which was my point.

“Absolutely wrong. S24 provides no backing whatsoever for ACT Senate numbers. The ACT is not, nor is any other Territory, mentioned in S24.”

Similarly, nowhere have I mentioned that this section of the Constitution mentions territory representation. I said it provides some reasoning as to why the current Senate numbers for Territory representation (particularly for the ACT) can be considered reasonable).

@chewy14
“Perhaps you need to read what I wrote. The above shows that the parliament has the ability to legislate in this area, which I have never suggested that they didn’t. But this representation is fundamentally different compared to the States from a constitutional perspective. Which was my point.”
I did reread it and what you wrote was: “I’ve demonstrated that the constitutional backing for Senate representation doesn’t extend to the territories.”
Section 122 of the Constitution states: The Parliament may make laws for the government of any territory surrendered by any State to and accepted by the Commonwealth, or of any territory placed by the Queen under the authority of and accepted by the Commonwealth, or otherwise acquired by the Commonwealth, and may allow the representation of such territory in either House of the Parliament to the extent and on the terms which it thinks fit. ”
Do I need to explain that “… may allow the representation of such territory in either House of the Parliament …” includes the Senate or can you work that out for yourself?

“I said it provides some reasoning as to why the current Senate numbers for Territory representation (particularly for the ACT) can be considered reasonable).”
How does S24 of the Constitution provide any reasoning for any Senate numbers (let alone those of the Territories) – particularly as it is entitled “Constitution of House of Representatives”.
Obviously I actually need to point out to you that it (s24) prescribes the number of members in the House of Representatives is determined by the number of senators and NOT vice versa – ” … the number of such members shall be, as nearly as practicable, twice the number of the senators.”

Seriously, chewy14, don’t you think it’s time you stopped digging yourself into deeper holes and just accept that you have no case whatsoever for arguing against increasing Territory Senate numbers?

You blew it chewy14.

You said “there is no Constitutional basis for Territory Senate representation”. Simply wrong. A Constitutional basis is a head of power. It exists, or else the High Court would have pointed out otherwise when invited twice to do so.

I did not discuss your attempted diversion of “a problem with current arrangements” but your ridiculous claim about the Constitutional basis for Senate representation for the Territories. That claim remains patently silly. Accept the obvious and move on.

You also tried to change the subject where I asked about improvement in governance, an open question. Your response was a particular one that there is nothing to fix, obviously not the basis of my open query. You demonstrate that you reflexively oppose with no thought for future improvement. As you wish, although a little retro don’t you think?.

Charmaine,

“You said “there is no Constitutional basis for Territory Senate representation”. Simply wrong. A Constitutional basis is a head of power. It exists, or else the High Court would have pointed out otherwise when invited twice to do so.”

My point was around the difference as compared to the guaranteed constitutional representation of the States. No such thing exists for the Territories which was my point. Apologies if you think I should have been clearer.

“You also tried to change the subject where I asked about improvement in governance, an open question”

I’ve previously posted on this, so I didn’t think it needed to be said. My ideal preference would be the removal of the States themselves because far better outcomes would be achieved without that layer of government. This would also necessarily improve governance arrangements for the Territories.

But under the current arrangements there is no particular problem that requires changes in representational arrangements and no solid evidence for change.

Seeing as you like open questions, what do you think the existing problems are and how could they be fixed?

“Seriously, chewy14, don’t you think it’s time you stopped digging yourself into deeper holes and just accept that you have no case whatsoever for arguing against increasing Territory Senate numbers?”

And yet you are yet to provide a single reason why the numbers should be increased beyond your “opinion”. No identified failures of goverance, no evidence as to how an increased number will improve governance outcomes.

No holes here, just your illogical rationale for providing a significantly higher level of representation for Territory citizens in support of a politically based attempt to bias the parliament in favour of one side of politics.

@chewy14
“And yet you are yet to provide a single reason why the numbers should be increased beyond your “opinion”.”
While I definitely hold the opinion that the increase in Territory numbers is justified, I demonstrated that there is a clear disparity in the numbers in the Senate based on the percentage of seats across the eight jurisdictions. The figures don’t lie, chewy14 – even though you don’t like the rationale.
You call it “illogical rationale”, but haven’t come up with one factual argument to counter it – oh other than “the territories are not states”, which no-one has denied.
Rather, you’ve tried to obfuscate the facts by twisting reality and using the way HoR numbers are defined, based on Senate numbers, to somehow justify the Territory Senate numbers. I had to set you straight on that.
You even falsely claimed that there is no basis in the Constitution for Territory representation in the Senate. Again I proved you wrong.

“No identified failures of goverance, no evidence as to how an increased number will improve governance outcomes.”
Governance outcomes? A totally subjective measure. Where in the Constitution does it mention governance outcomes in relation to the composition of the Senate – or indeed the HoR? What are governance outcomes and how does one measure them, chewy14? Perhaps we just rely on you, to tell us whether or not an improvement has been achieved. I think not!
What I am arguing is the change will go some way towards addressing the disparity in representation across the eight jurisdictions – which increasing the Territory numbers from 2 to 4 will do.

“… a politically based attempt to bias the parliament in favour of one side of politics.”
Yeah about that, chewy14. Since ACT and NT were allowed to elect Senators at the 1975 federal election there have been 18 elections at which ACT & NT Senate positions were contested. On 17 of those occasions in ACT, and all 18 occasions in NT, the results were equally divided between Labor and Liberal/CLP candidates. Obviously at the last election in 2022, the ACT elected two left candidates, while NT maintained the Labor/CLP spilt.
So on the basis of one election (out of 18), you determine that the decision will favour one side of politics.
Perhaps the 2022 election was more a vote against ultra right wing politics (Seselja) in the ACT, than a vote for the progressive Pocock. Nobody knows how ACT electors will vote in the Senate should there be 4 seats up for grabs – especially if the Liberals field a moderate candidate (in the ilk of Gary Humphries).
So while you entitled to your opinion on the reason for the proposal – it’s purely that your speculative opinion without any basis in fact.

So unless you can actually argue, with real facts not chewy14 facts, that there is no disparity between territory and state representation in the Senate and the proposed increase for the territories should not go ahead, I’ll consider the matter closed.

@chewie14
With respect to your post to Charmaine, perhaps you can explain to those of us less gifted with political acumen than your good self, how removal of the states “… would also necessarily improve governance arrangements for the Territories.”? Oh and facts to support your response please.

Chewy14, yes, your words were unclear. The fact that a head of power exists means the only practical differentiation between States and Territories regarding senators is that the parliament has more, not less, freedom to determine the number of Territory senators, no less capability.

Your proposal to abolish States hardly lies within my qualifier of “with reasonable conformity to the existing electoral provisions”. The problem becomes that in relation to this sort of question (Territory representation) you are pretty much bound to oppose anything which does not sound like a progression toward abolition, making this all a bit pointless. As I said in reply to someone else somewhere in these endless comments, neither the status quo nor change will satisfy either of groups who cleave to a population argument or a ‘States rights only’ argument.

I lean toward the increase, because of the current significant senate power imbalance between self-governing components in the country, the original basis of senate representation. I too think there are better long term or radical solutions. I have little hope of seeing them. That does not mean I should merely oppose everything else today.

Zed Seselja of, “as part of the exodus out of Canberra into regional NSW”; a mistruth, to make it sound as though there is a rush of people leaving Canberra (and “regional” is Queanbeyan; hardly a far move), is likely to try his hand at one of any new Senate spots. So unfortunately, don’t think we’ve got rid of him. He’s in it for himself and he doesn’t care where, as any opportunity to return is an opportunity for his far right agenda; not the people he represents.

Well, he is rather desperate for a job where he can get by with not doing much, as in his past role ‘representing’ the ACT, which he did not do. I don’t think he knows what real work is and he certainly is not capable of representing anyone except himself.

Recommendation 2 doesn’t say if those 4 Senators should be elected every 3 years for a 3 year term which would result in a quota of 20% to get elected, or if 2 should be elected every 3 years for a 6 year term which would result in a quota of 33.3% to get elected.

James Savoulidis8:24 am 28 Nov 23

Keep the ACT and NT at 2 senators each and halve all the states from 12 to 6. We need less government, not more!

That would still result in an unfair result. NSW has 16 times the population of ACT yet in your scenario NSW would only have 3 times the senators.

@Adam Driver
Except, Adam, the makeup of the Senate is not based on population, it is purely at a state/territory level. Besides Tasmania has the same number of Senators as NSW with only a marginally larger population than the ACT.

I know… we read the same article, believe it or not. If you want a smaller government yet still want equal voting then the Senate should be dissolved and we become unicameral like half the world including NZ.

@Adam Driver
I think the ACT is the perfect example why we should not have a unicameral parliament … the Senate being the house of review (especially given it’s current makeup) ensures, as much as possible, that federal government legislation is not just passed on weight of numbers in the HoR.

How does that make it fairer though? Why should Tasmania or any other jurisdiction get significantly more representatives per capita? I bet you would feel different if they voted in 6 Greens senators.

Sorry meant to say 12 senators not 6, my bad

@Adam Driver
Perhaps you should actually read a little about our political system (the Constitution?) so you understand why Senate representation is not based on population. Seriously, so you want to argue based on the potential outcome of elector voting?
PS 6 or 12 it’s still a ridiculous assertion

If you actually go and read my comment you’ll notice I’m simply stating your “solution” of halving the state senator count does nothing to address the per capita imbalance that this article discusses. That’s literally what this article is discussing, and what your “solution” was trying to fix. Yet when I point out your error you winge and say the population shouldn’t matter all along… pick one and stick with it.

@Adam Driver
I think you are confusing me with James Savadoulis – I never said halve the state Senator count. And the article is not about per capita imbalance (unless you are referring to the minority report from Coalition members on the Committee) as it explicitly states “Ultimately, the committee’s stance was that it wasn’t appropriate to base territory representation in the Senate on population statistics.” – which has been my position all along.
So, with respect, I haven’t got a clue what you are on about.

Yeah fair call, I thought you were James, no wonder I was confused with your recent comments. Cheers for pointing it out & apologies for the confusion.

@Adam Driver
Thank you. I had to reread my posts to you, just to make sure LOL
Cheers

Comparing the Australian average with the Territories actual numbers is meaningless and is due to political pointscoring, a limited understanding of mathematics or lazy journalism; or a combination of the three. Tasmania has 402,331 registered voters and elects 12 senators. That’s one senator per 33,527 electors, while the ACT has one senator per 157,012 electors. Hardly equal representation.

And NSW has 8.2 million for 12 senators or 1 senator per 683k. What’s your point?

The attempt to focus on Tasmania’s overrepresentation seems to be almost wholly “due to political pointscoring, a limited understanding of mathematics or lazy journalism; or a combination of the three.”

Just because Tasmania is overrepresented, doesn’t mean that we should extend the problem.

The comparison to the Australian average is far more relevant when talking about unrepresentation unless other failures of governance can be identified that would require more local representation for smaller jurisdictions. But that never seems to be focus of those proposing these changes because there’s very little justification for any failures of national governance that could be improved with more representation.

You’re right Chewy14. No matter which way you cut it the system is inequitable and obviously in need of an overhaul. Perhaps the only saving grace is that we don’t have a House of Lords!

Yes, they could definitely improve the system in a number of ways because the whole process doesn’t reflect the needs what a modern representative democracy has. It’s very anachronistic and indeed a wider discussion around the role of the states themselves could be had. However, I can’t see anyone considering bigger changes to the Federation any time soon.

For more realistic changes, they could make more minor changes, for example providing a set amount of “minimum” representation for all jurisdictions, with the remaining representatives (whatever the best split was seen to be) being chosen by the proportion of population. But I can’t see that happening either. Too many people with vested interests and too much political grandstanding.

@chewy14
Any change which affects the equity of distribution of Senators amongst the states would need to have approval via a referendum to change the constitution. The 3 smaller states (WA, SA and Tas) would never agree.

Justsaying,
Which is why I said:

“Too many people with vested interests and too much political grandstanding.”

Although you do raise a good point, the difficulties of a referendum make more reasonable changes less likely.

Which ironically is also part of the reason why there has been a focus on changes in the territories, which only require legislative change, not being states and all.

William Newby6:14 am 28 Nov 23

Double down on costs, double down on arguments, double down on woke programs for this large country town in NSW. Can’t point my finger to one thing Pocock has delivered, what would four of him deliver?
Our democracy is broken, the right and the conservatives have zero say in a town like this, instead the Greens who are lucky to muster 15% of the votes end up having the largest say even though 85% of us never vote for them.

Why should the conservatives be in power when the majority of ACT didn’t vote for them? The Greens are in a coalition with Labor since Labor didn’t win over 50% of the votes and therefore can’t govern by themselves. It’s the same way Liberals and the Nationals govern together as a coalition when they’re in power.

I think he has delivered quite well with amendments to improving government legislation. Can’t see what the last guy ever did.

@William Newby
Oh because the elctorate votes a certain way “Our democracy is broken”. Don’t you really mean YOUR ‘democracy’ is broken?

@Adam Driver
Are you talking local or federal politics?

Been in the the job for a bit, time to rewrite democracy.

Good Grief.

The proposal aims to make everyone’s vote more equal, which is a fundamental pillar of democracy. Specifically, what part don’t you agree with?

The house of reps is the will of the people. they have proportional representation.
The senate is the will of the states, so they have equal representation.

Whats the point of having two elections for the same representation? You do release the senate is to keep each state in check and the house of reps to progress us forward?

Gooterz is right about this point. The original purpose of the Senate was to provide equal representation of self-governing jurisdictions at Federal level regardless of population, in fact precisely because smaller jurisdictions would be disadvantaged by a national proportional system. If you accept that principle remains valid then it is obvious that the self-governing Territories are under-represented.

I think traditional arguments for the Senate are not as relevant today, and the upshot is a distorted system from any point of view.

One correction gooterz, Reps is not based on proportional representation. Single-member electorates, even with the help of preferential voting, distort the proportional will and favour compliant party members on both sides. A national proportional Senate might be a good thing.

You could get a similar outcome by handicaping sitting or already electected members. so you are more likely to have a change over the years. The problem with the current system is its so dam long between elections. Everyone would vote for the high speed rail or single issue parties if they could get them a run for 18 months and then pick someone else. 4 years for ACT is crazy. If it was 1 year, how much damange could a single election do.

I assume this is a hold over from paper and validation which was all manual. The recent countback took a few seconds to run.

The main arugement against giving the ‘Territories’ more say is that each state would just split to gain more say. We’d end up with splinter states controlling the whole country.

The reason we have 3 parties in the act and that Labor and Greens have been winning is likely due to Arrow impossibility theorm.

The general theory of democracy is great. however the system is flawed and allows anyone to pick what outcome they want and get a majority to vote for it.

gooterz, you will have difficulty finding support for wasting time and money on continuous campaigning while achieving nothing in such a short timeframe.

How would splintering of States enhance power of States now splintered and competing? Who would approve this change?

What is your proposed alternative to democratic process, or is it just not picking the result you want?

Your comment on ACT election outcomes does not suggest a strong understanding of Arrow’s Impossibility Theorem, its point or relevance.

“They pointed out in the last election that 16,753,557 voters elected 36 senators across Australia’s six states, on average representing 465,377 votes per senator. However, the ACT had 314,025 votes, and the NT 145,851 votes, to elect two senators each.”

This is all that needs to be said to point out the ridiculousness of suggesting the Territories need more senators.

The arguments put forward in support of the proposal are almost wholly blatantly self serving and do not include any rational reasoning as to how it will improve the overall governance of the country.

Education system needs more work. Clearly this needs to be taught better in schools

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