ACT Government to consider lowering the voting age

Most people living out of home pay for their own broadband, electricity, food, rent, soap and deoderant, regardless of age, Fluges. I do, and I can tell you that one does not automatically gain adulthood by doing so. Life experience is not just merely the ability to satisfy basic needs. And you don’t need to be old and cynical to vote – only to be able to pick a party who’s policies most suit your beliefs.
16 year olds are affected by policies just as much as everyone else is. They should have the right to have a say, no matter how many lawns they’ve mowed.

In this context, I don’t think ‘life experience’ means trips to Bali. I think it means paying for your own broadband and electricity, food, rent, soap and deoderant and mowing the lawn on occasion with good humour. Even if they’re working, most ‘kidults’ living at home only spend ‘their’ money on petrol, alcohol, electronic equipment and other entertainments. I’m not talking 16 year olds here, I’m talking 18 to mid-twenties and beyond. 16 year olds are even less qualified to vote.

And, yes, the drinking age used to be 21, as was the voting age. When I turned 18 I hitch-hiked around Tasmania with a few mates to celebrate. It was supposed to be a pub crawl, but nobody told us that the legal drinking age in Tasmania at that time was still 21! So we had to continue the practise of under-age drinking for another week or so.

Yes, it’s inequitable.

“The basic argument in support of expanding the electoral franchise beyond propertied white middle aged men in centuries past was that there should be “no taxation without representation” (see the Eureka Stockade for example), ie citizens should not have to contribute to the society by way of taxation if they don’t get a say in how their taxes are spent.”

Hey I like this!!!! What about a movement that says “No representation without Taxation” Why don’t you get a vote for each dollar in taxation you pay?? Then it doesn’t matter how old you are, what matters is how much you contribute.

Don’t think this would give more to rich folk – Because it would depend on how much tax you paid.

Maybe if the voting age is dropped to 16, then 16 year olds will also be happy to be conscripted if the need arises during times of conflict?

“right-leaning as I mature”

Reminds me of some trees up on the (very windy) far north west coast, although direction of lean depended on the direction one was driving…

PS: RA site seems to be responding again, for the first time since mid morning.

Can anyone give a reasonable argument as to why 16 is a good voting age as opposed to 18, 14, 15 etc?

A cutoff age is always going to risk marginalising those who are just below it. Considering the infrequency of elections (particularly for the ACT LA), changing the voting age could still have fuck all impact anyway.

“right-leaning as I mature”

Isn’t that an oxymoron?

JB can attest that I am not him, and that I am in fact a real person, just becoming increasingly hawkish and right-leaning as I mature. I’m sure we will have the pleasure some time soon.

The purpose is to point out the absurdity of some of the loopy things you usually only ever hear about in the ACT. I know that some readers here, when hearing such suggestions, nod with head tilted and give considered thought to such absurdities.

I don’t know if it is just here, but RA is proving near impossible to get any pages coming up on today…

On this topic, the original post is very much how JB sometimes wrote…hmmm

And Ralph so deliberately goes out of the way to bait people I sometimes wonder if – like the former “Big Al”, Ralph is another construct designed to use outrageous statements to haul right-thinking people out of apathy…?

I have but one observation: what is wrong with being idealistic? Better than bitter and twisted I reckon.

the concept of discussing voting age at all indicates a dissatisfaction with the system somewhere… i rekkun we need to include a more comprehensive ‘civics’ in the curriculum, from primary school on.

how many 32 year olds (just to double the age) can tell you how our govt system works? esp outside the ACT??

Life experience, Thumper? Ha! 16 year olds have two years of experience less than 18 year olds – that’s ummm….college. Woohoo! A whole bunch of classes they probably attended about half of!
Honestly, how many times do you need to take ‘life-changing’ trips to Bali or something where you hung out in tourist bars talking to other australians before going back to your cushy job in canberra do you need to take before you can assess a particular party’s policies on issues that affect you?
It’s almost like your vote counts against political donations and the ‘big two’ that dominate federal and every state parliament.

Uh, I aint no Labor voter, a good old fashioned “swinger” here, but I know shite policies when I see them (eg WorkChoices, just about anything that’s ever come out of Howard’s mouth).

I know I’m making complete sense when the usual bevvy of part-time posters comes out of the woodwork, frothing at the mouth, jibbering and waving their crooked fingers.

I don’t know this character you’re talking about Pierce. You know, I’m too busy reading Bolt, Janet, Piers and watching Bill O’Reilly.

Didn’t think you would Thumper, just checking.

Didn’t the voting/drinking age used to be 21 though?

Perhaps an IQ test could be implemented? Anyone falling under a certain point can’t vote?

Oh, I might need to clarify – imagine Ja’mie from Summer Heights High saying the things that Ralph writes, they just seem made for that voice and attitude.

Unfortunately Thumper I’d say that the majority of Australians don’t really give a toss about politics – you don’t think voting rights should be allocated based on IQ, perceived voting intention or income do you? Maybe people should have to take a test before they can vote – name the deputy leader or explain the doctrine of the separation of powers?

If 16 y.o’s are old enough to pay taxes and are actually getting an education about the political system and they want it, give them the vote.

Lex, that was awesome.

GregW – by people, do you mean Bolt, Ackerman and Albrechtsen? (a.k.a BAAA) – the polls seem to indicate fairly convincingly that Australians realise these changes didn’t need to be made.

Howard didn’t release his policies until 3 weeks before the election in 96, why should Rudd act any differently.

Ok, better get back to my work with the sinister reds under the beds conspiracy.

“How about confiscating the vote from ignorant, suburban white men who get fooled into voting for the Liberal party by their divisive, dishonest and populist policies”

The claim that Liberals are populist, from a Labour support is interesting to say the least. I believe there’s a analogy about pots and kettles that is appropriate here…

The introduction of WorkChoices was hardly a populist move, it has just become popular because people are (finally) realising it needed to be done.

Then there’s Labours IR reforms, environmental policies (oh wait, they haven’t actually released that), etc..

Strange how otherwise intelligent people can vote Labour, I guess it just shows how emotional arguments can win naive people over.

There is scientific evidence to suggest the reasoning and evaluative capacity of human brains isn’t fully developed until about 24. Then there is the theory of Piaget’s stages of development which suggests that some people never get to the abstract concept stage, regardless of age. Then there is the fact that a lot of people turn into reactionary narrow-minded bastards as they age. Discuss.

Nemo – first of all, the P&C is very different to the teachers. I would doubt your son has much chance to be influenced by the P&C president, if he even knows who he is.

Secondly, if his examples included Howard and Carr, he is talking about opposite ends of politics. Hardly biased either way.

Thirdly, kids are influenced more by their parents than their teachers. I would think your son shares more of your own political views than that of his teachers. And if he is so easily influenced by ‘propaganda’ maybe you should think about teaching him to critically evalutate the literature and view the issues with an open mind. Oh wait – he’s already learning that at school.

Just watched Summer Heights High and when you hear Ralph’s comments in the voice of Ja’mie, it all makes a lot more sense.

Ah….I remember being young and idealistic back then…

What a stupid, stupid idea.

Oh the Australian, now that’s an objective source.

Another good piece from my beloved Janet.

Mind you this brainwashing goes on in public schools, and they wonder why parents are pulling their kids out of the public system in droves.

See the link for an article on Teacher’s union propaganda being distributed to school students recently.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22441932-7583,00.html

According to the last census, in 2006 there were 12,640 Canberrans aged 15-19. Therefore, I would assume that around 40% of this figure, or approximately 5,000 Canberrans are now aged 16-17.

If these youngsters were to be given franchise, it would be a naive or out-of-touch party that neglected the issues that effect them.

As for students passively accepting to the propaganda of their teachers, that is no worse than the political soundbites and shocking statistics pedalled by the media that the rest of us mindlessly absorb, deluding ourselves that we are actually critically engaging with the world.

And for the record, having just left, I cannot recall any incidents of teachers pushing their views on students, even despite the high rates of unionism amongst the staff.

16 year olds should be able to vote, and elections should be voluntary (for any age group). That way if people don’t have a keen enough interest in politics to bother voting, they don’t have to, and if they do even at a younger age, they can. There is little legitimate reason why old people are entitled to a greater say, infact I believe a lot of problems with public education stems from older people making the decisions for said students.

We missed the labelling lesson due to a teacher’s union strike.

I’m surprised no one has pointed out that sex is legal from the age of 16 in the ACT (17 in 3 or 4 states). In the US, you can’t drink till your 21.

But let’s not get stuck in a debate over what age we should be allowed to drink and smoke and all that. It’s clear every culture and every person has different views.

The key questions are:
Will a 16yr old analyze the running candidates any better or worse than you do?
Will a 16 year old understand what the candidate is offering, what it means and what their vote will do?

When I was 16, I could as could many of my friends.

well, shauno – maybe the fact that a large amount of people want to vote for a particular party means something?
Tired of how the liberal party is screwing up the country at a federal level?
Tired of how labor acts as a liberal-lite at a state level?
Tired of the direction this country they will soon inherit is going?
Naw.

“ralph- your assertion that 16 yr olds should not be given the vote because they’re more likely to vote green is the stupidest thing i’ve heard in a long time. It goes against the very point of a democracy to deny the vote to a group on the basis of how that group might vote.
Heaven forbid 16 yr olds use their vote to get the politicians they agree with elected.”

Maybe so but he’s right

Nemo, no they aren’t. You can say that you’ve been to 5 or 6 schools in either NSW or the ACT but you cannot label all schools as being biased.

Or didn’t you teach your students that ‘labelling’ is wrong?

Oh for f’s sake!

Kids walking out of school to “protest” at APEC as an argument for dropping the voting age to 16 is one of the stupidest comments I’ve ever read.

It was an excuse to skip classes.

And as for “no taxation without representation” – so every kid with a part-time job should be able to vote? Where do you draw the line? 13, 14?

FFS let 16 year kids grow up a bit and experience life and learn about responsibilities. What’s wrong with the vote at 18? Why does the age need to drop?

To allow brainwashing of impressionable kids by hippie teachers and lefties to attract a green vote with labor preferences – that’s what it’s all about.

ralph- your assertion that 16 yr olds should not be given the vote because they’re more likely to vote green is the stupidest thing i’ve heard in a long time. It goes against the very point of a democracy to deny the vote to a group on the basis of how that group might vote.
Heaven forbid 16 yr olds use their vote to get the politicians they agree with elected.

I have also worked as a teacher in NSW and ACT. I stand by my statement that schools are biased.

No Nemo, schools aren’t biased, your son’s school is.

Don’t label all schools because the P&C president has bigger balls than the principal.

Schools are terribly biased. The P&C president of my son’s highschool has used the last two school newsletters to bash the Howard Government.

This week his article was about truth and honesty and used John Howard, George Bush and Bob Carr as examples of people who are dishonest.

How can 16yo’s, most of whom are still at highschool being brainwashed by this left wing propaganda, be expected to make up their own mind. Majority will just be puppets.

Well said boomacat! There were kids walking out of school to protest at APEC, who says they’re not politically aware? (At least the ones who weren’t just in it for a free day off school – but adults take advantage of strikes all the time.)
And Ralph, call me a loopy left-winger or whatever, but why don’t we lower the boozing age to 16? They’ve done it in Germany and I personally think teens would be better off learning how to drink in licensed establishments, where their actions can be monitored and they can be refused service if they’ve had too much.
In fact, they’d probably be the only ones in there if this planet was moving along swimmingly.

The basic argument in support of expanding the electoral franchise beyond propertied white middle aged men in centuries past was that there should be “no taxation without representation” (see the Eureka Stockade for example), ie citizens should not have to contribute to the society by way of taxation if they don’t get a say in how their taxes are spent.

Arguments raised against extending the electoral franchise were very similar to those raised by Ralph, “you can’t give women the vote, they’re too emotional to make a sensible decision”, “people under the age of 21 are too immature to make the decision”, “aborigines/asians/islanders don’t possess the requisite intelligence” blah blah blah.

I’m for the idea. Most 16 years olds are working and paying tax. Further, the decisions made by government will especially affect them in a number of areas, such as education, the environment etc.

You can drive a car, have sex, buy knives, work and contribute taxes when you’re 16, why not vote?

To say that 16 year olds are all ignorant and naive fools that would be conned by the Greens into voting for them is insulting, and exposes your rhetoric for the flimsy rubbish that it is Ralph.

How about confiscating the vote from ignorant, suburban white men who get fooled into voting for the Liberal party by their divisive, dishonest and populist policies, eg “keep interest rates at record lows” or, “we’ll keep out those nasty refugees who throw their children overboard [not that they did of course, I’m just deliberately misleading you so you’ll vote for me]”.

I don’t think setting an age limit is right for anything like voting, drinking or gambling. Think about it. Maturity is the key factor. I know plenty of 16 year olds who should be able to vote and conversely, plenty of 30 year olds who shouldn’t.

For every mature and responsible 36 year old you show me, I’ll show you 2 that are deadshits with no political opinions at all.

Amateur-grade straw man Ralph.

You could neutralise the perceived benefit to leftist parties by making voting optional until 20 at the same time.

For every mature and responsible 16 year old you show me, I’ll show you 2 that are deadshits with no political opinions at all.

As a former student, I know that many teachers do push their political opinios onto their students. I don’t think they have the life experience to know what they are voting for.

I’m with caf. I know plenty of mature, responsible 16 and 17 year olds who would love to vote and who would think very carefully about their vote. Those who couldn’t give a flying wouldn’t have to vote.

And Ralph, as a teacher I’m extremely careful about what I say to my students. There is no propaganda involved, but you have to give them an education about the process and the issues involved.

And for the same reasons that you think this proposal would benefit left wing parties, any opposition to it would benefit right wing parties. Let the kids decide!

Following caf’s logic we should also let them go out boozing and smoking as well.

The sad thing is bonfire this would likely get approved by any referendum in the ACT, along with as plethora of other left-wing tokenisms such as legalising drugs, restorative justice programmes, gay marriages etc.

hingo: And then after that they grow up a little more and realise that under a single-transferrable-vote preferential voting system the only vote that is comparable to throwing your voting form in bin is an informal vote?

put it to the vote.

hang on, they never put there loopy ideas up to the public do they ?

the public only see the nice professional face.

loopys and union thugs are told to hide in the cupboard until after the election.

Ahh, but there’s many legal decisions you can take from the age of 16 too – even more if you are emancipated from your parents. 16 year olds can legally enter into contracts on their own behalf, for example.

Anyway, I can see why reasonable people could disagree on this, what I don’t understand is the eye-popping, vein-bulging apoplexy it seems to have provoked (even taking into account the base level of outraged indignation that’s a riotact commenter’s stock-in-trade).

Totally agree with you on the Greens comment Ralph. Eventually, people grow up and realise that voting for the Greens is comparable to throwing your voting form in the bin.

16 year olds voting? What a astonishingly stupid idea. These are the same people who voted for Casey Donovan in Australian Idol

I don’t think people believe everyone somehow ‘gets’ maturity on the day they wake up as 18 year olds, it’s more to do with the fact that 18 is legal adulthood, at which time you can legally make your own decisions. Selecting the represented government of the day is thus done by legal adults.

It’s pretty funny the strength of opposition to the idea. It seems to be unchallengeable dogma that people change from being shifty, immature, unreliable layabouts to fine, informed, mature upstanding members of society at precisely the age of 18.

Have you ever wondered… well.. why?

I would support the idea, but only if were for optional voting – I am quite sure that only the most politically aware 16 year olds could be bothered to register if it were optional.

Planet’s running along swimmingly. Now that’s a job for the big people.

They can vote when they turn 18.

Another stupid, hopeless waste of time idea.

16 year olds work, use public transport and other government services and they are affected by changes in the education system. Why shouldn’t they be allowed to have a say?
It’s not like they’re a massive majority. Canberra, like most of Australia, has a rapidly aging population and all you oldies obviously have no idea how to run the planet.

Their statement that the plan would need to be backed up by education on the electoral system is a concession that these people are not mature enough to vote.

The kids are getting enough environmental propaganda, and teachers’ union propaganda thrown at them already. What a great captive market they would have there.

This plan is the sort of thing you’d expect to hear from a place like Quebec.

And you seldom get to see two so well rounded policies presented in such an upfront manner by politicians these days.

I agree, she had 2 nice polices.

Who cares about her policies when she has a rack like that?

I haven’t been 16 for a long time, but I’d vote for her! 🙂

I reckon that lovely lady in the bundaberg shirt on another thread would probably get elected.

Who cares what her policies are…

16 year olds vote for stuff like Australian Idol and the Logies – this should serve as a warning to everyone who would consider allowing anyone this young to vote in Territory elections!