19 April 2016

Canberra still learning how to design shareways

| Paul Costigan
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Bunda-P1120328

I recently took the opportunity to observe the new shareway along Bunda Street.

When I first arrived I watched a large bus make its way at speed along the street. Not surprisingly, pedestrians did not insist on their right of way over the oncoming hulk of metal.

I also saw several cars and small trucks that didn’t realise (or care?) that they did not have right of way. Many were driving at over 20km per hour. Consequently, pedestrians had to step back to allow them to pass. Pedestrians also did well to notice a cyclist’s rapid advance and allow him to pass.

Bunda-P1120307

It was up to the pedestrians to insist on their right of way or to choose the safer option of waiting for a space in the traffic. However, pedestrians seemed more comfortable to venture out and assert their right of way in areas where the the road had a raised surface.

Shareways work best when the street infrastructure is kept simple. Unfortunately, allowing for parked cars along Bunda Street (as opposed to only having a few loading zones) has cluttered up the kerbsides too much.

In addition, I am sure the architectural designers liked Bunda Street’s over-the top iron clad garden features, but all they seem to achieve is to add to the visual clutter.

As for all that distracting painted road decoration, the less said the better—except to say that it also adds to the distractions. This is a concern when being observant and watchful of others is so important.

There are more successful, less intrusive and more appropriate approaches to adding plants and the necessary infrastructure along shareways. As with any good design solution, the best advice is to keep it simple!

Before I venture too far in offering more negative comments about this shareway, let me say that they are a welcome alternative to the usual dominance of the automobiles on our urban streets.

Given that such initiatives are uncommon in Australia, it is even more important to get the basics of the design right. Unfortunately Bunda Street is only marginally successful due to the use of confusing design features. We can do a lot better!

Likewise in Dickson, 40km per hour zones have been introduced in most of the streets within the shopping precinct. This is a good thing and well overdue. But the new signage and traffic slowing devices are minimal and suggest that those who implemented the change did not really believe in the slowing down of cars. As a result, traffic speeds have not changed that much.

Dickson-P1120496

The worst example of ineffective signage is just off Cowper Street where the sign is positioned far to the left, almost into the nearby trees. I doubt many drivers have seen it. But then again, maybe the sign was meant to slow down pedestrians on the footpath!

No matter how many signs and other traffic controlling techniques are applied to our streets, getting people to understand shareways remains a challenge in Australia.

We live in a culture whereby automobiles reign supreme. All other forms of travel, especially walking, can be very dangerous activities when you need to share public spaces with cars. It is not uncommon to see pedestrians caught half way across a street being challenged by a vehicle that appears suddenly around the corner or from elsewhere that then demands the road at all costs.

There are protocols on most occasions, but not all, for how we pass each other as pedestrians. But once one of us in a car, watch out— they are coming through no matter what!

I hope that our government’s roads people assess these initiates very soon and work out what should be improved. The design for shareways requires designers who understanding simplicity and that extraneous clutter and decorations are not part of the solution.

I encourage the introduction of more shareways across Canberra but it must be done using more effective designs.

It would be good to hear about other experiences of shareways in Canberra and elsewhere.

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Evilomlap said :

rigseismic67 said :

Today at 1205pm a largish man was struck by a small car driven by an old lady in the middle of the shared zone.
I totally agreed with his punching a large dent in the side of the car in anger.
This shared zone is a joke, someone will end up badly injured.
Put in some speed humps, make it one way or put the crossings back you fools who made this mistake.

That’s really unfortunate, but comes as no surprise. That ‘shared zone’ is a joke. It’s unclear who has right of way, and ambiguity in road rules is a catastrophe waiting to happen. I’m glad the guy wasn’t seriously injured.

Yep, a few weeks since thsi thread started, and the Shareway is still a joke. Cars drive through it too fast and they DON’T give way. An even bigger joke is the pedestrian lights under the Canberra Centre footbridge. The Shareway ends and the speed limit goes from 20 km/h to 40 km/h for the duration of the lights! What’s that about?!

rigseismic67 said :

Today at 1205pm a largish man was struck by a small car driven by an old lady in the middle of the shared zone.
I totally agreed with his punching a large dent in the side of the car in anger.
This shared zone is a joke, someone will end up badly injured.
Put in some speed humps, make it one way or put the crossings back you fools who made this mistake.

That’s really unfortunate, but comes as no surprise. That ‘shared zone’ is a joke. It’s unclear who has right of way, and ambiguity in road rules is a catastrophe waiting to happen. I’m glad the guy wasn’t seriously injured.

rigseismic6712:18 pm 01 Sep 15

Today at 1205pm a largish man was struck by a small car driven by an old lady in the middle of the shared zone.
I totally agreed with his punching a large dent in the side of the car in anger.
This shared zone is a joke, someone will end up badly injured.
Put in some speed humps, make it one way or put the crossings back you fools who made this mistake.

Maya123 said :

bryansworld said :

Evilomlap said :

ChrisinTurner said :

I think the whole thing is a good idea except the signs saying ’20 km/hr’ and ‘shared zone’ are too high on the poles to be seen by most drivers. “Shared Zone” should be painted on the road at the entries. 10 km/hr would be more appropriate but it is so much better than the original 60 km/hr when I started living in the area.

Sadly, people that speed generally don’t pay attention to speed limit signs. You could have a giant neon “Speeding vehicles will be blown up with land mines” sign and it wouldn’t make any difference.

And I’m noticing more and more that speed humps don’t seem to slow many people down either. Time to make them bumpier.

I rarely slow for speed humps, as most can be driven over at normal speed. In my case, the speed limit.

There are concave speed bumps appearing all over Canberra lately.
Us old folk used to call them potholes.
They are the equivalent of tank traps for push bikes.

Evilomlap said :

Maya123 said :

bryansworld said :

Evilomlap said :

ChrisinTurner said :

I think the whole thing is a good idea except the signs saying ’20 km/hr’ and ‘shared zone’ are too high on the poles to be seen by most drivers. “Shared Zone” should be painted on the road at the entries. 10 km/hr would be more appropriate but it is so much better than the original 60 km/hr when I started living in the area.

Sadly, people that speed generally don’t pay attention to speed limit signs. You could have a giant neon “Speeding vehicles will be blown up with land mines” sign and it wouldn’t make any difference.

And I’m noticing more and more that speed humps don’t seem to slow many people down either. Time to make them bumpier.

I rarely slow for speed humps, as most can be driven over at normal speed. In my case, the speed limit.

Whether or not you ‘can’ go over them at normal speed, doesn’t mean you ‘should’. They are safety measure, they are not there to inconvenience you. Do you drive a large 4WD? If not, I can say that having adjusted/replaced the suspension on dozens of normal (ie non-off-road) cars over the years it’s easy to spot the ones that bounce over speed bumps. You’re not doing your wheel alignment any favours either.

I never had* a suspension problem with going over them in my 2WD Holden Vectra (which also drove on rough dirt roads at times, and occasionally off road), and neither did my friend who services my car (and drives over humps similarly). At one stage this was his job; suspension, so he is experienced in this area. Some speed humps are so mild they might as well not be there, such as those on Goyder Street and those near the Bowen Drive construction site. I still see lots of cars timidly going over these, including large 4WDs. I suspect speedhumps are not there to slow people down even lower than the speed limit (40kph on Bowen Drive), but to bring people down to these limits. As long as one is driving at the speed limit, they don’t need to slow further, unless something else indicates this. A really nasty speed hump can be found on the dirt Brooks Road, off Bungendore Road. I would strongly suggest slowing for that one.

* (I say had, because about a week ago a car in front of me stopped suddenly with little warning, except tentative driving, to turn right from the non-right turning lane. I took evasive action by steering sharply left and missed, but the car behind didn’t and ploughed into me, writing my car off. I was told I should have jumped the gutter at speed, even if that had ruined the suspension, because that could have been fixed. I agree, but hindsight is all well and good, as I didn’t know the car behind me would not react in time.)

Maya123 said :

bryansworld said :

Evilomlap said :

ChrisinTurner said :

I think the whole thing is a good idea except the signs saying ’20 km/hr’ and ‘shared zone’ are too high on the poles to be seen by most drivers. “Shared Zone” should be painted on the road at the entries. 10 km/hr would be more appropriate but it is so much better than the original 60 km/hr when I started living in the area.

Sadly, people that speed generally don’t pay attention to speed limit signs. You could have a giant neon “Speeding vehicles will be blown up with land mines” sign and it wouldn’t make any difference.

And I’m noticing more and more that speed humps don’t seem to slow many people down either. Time to make them bumpier.

I rarely slow for speed humps, as most can be driven over at normal speed. In my case, the speed limit.

Whether or not you ‘can’ go over them at normal speed, doesn’t mean you ‘should’. They are safety measure, they are not there to inconvenience you. Do you drive a large 4WD? If not, I can say that having adjusted/replaced the suspension on dozens of normal (ie non-off-road) cars over the years it’s easy to spot the ones that bounce over speed bumps. You’re not doing your wheel alignment any favours either.

Maya123 said :

bryansworld said :

Evilomlap said :

ChrisinTurner said :

I think the whole thing is a good idea except the signs saying ’20 km/hr’ and ‘shared zone’ are too high on the poles to be seen by most drivers. “Shared Zone” should be painted on the road at the entries. 10 km/hr would be more appropriate but it is so much better than the original 60 km/hr when I started living in the area.

Sadly, people that speed generally don’t pay attention to speed limit signs. You could have a giant neon “Speeding vehicles will be blown up with land mines” sign and it wouldn’t make any difference.

And I’m noticing more and more that speed humps don’t seem to slow many people down either. Time to make them bumpier.

I rarely slow for speed humps, as most can be driven over at normal speed. In my case, the speed limit.

There are some really effective ones – like the ones on MacPherson St in O’Connor to stop people racing through the school zones there. They don’t look very menacing but go over them at anything more than a crawl and you’ll wish you hadn’t. I see them at some road works as well.

bryansworld said :

Evilomlap said :

ChrisinTurner said :

I think the whole thing is a good idea except the signs saying ’20 km/hr’ and ‘shared zone’ are too high on the poles to be seen by most drivers. “Shared Zone” should be painted on the road at the entries. 10 km/hr would be more appropriate but it is so much better than the original 60 km/hr when I started living in the area.

Sadly, people that speed generally don’t pay attention to speed limit signs. You could have a giant neon “Speeding vehicles will be blown up with land mines” sign and it wouldn’t make any difference.

And I’m noticing more and more that speed humps don’t seem to slow many people down either. Time to make them bumpier.

I rarely slow for speed humps, as most can be driven over at normal speed. In my case, the speed limit.

Evilomlap said :

ChrisinTurner said :

I think the whole thing is a good idea except the signs saying ’20 km/hr’ and ‘shared zone’ are too high on the poles to be seen by most drivers. “Shared Zone” should be painted on the road at the entries. 10 km/hr would be more appropriate but it is so much better than the original 60 km/hr when I started living in the area.

Sadly, people that speed generally don’t pay attention to speed limit signs. You could have a giant neon “Speeding vehicles will be blown up with land mines” sign and it wouldn’t make any difference.

And I’m noticing more and more that speed humps don’t seem to slow many people down either. Time to make them bumpier.

ChrisinTurner said :

I think the whole thing is a good idea except the signs saying ’20 km/hr’ and ‘shared zone’ are too high on the poles to be seen by most drivers. “Shared Zone” should be painted on the road at the entries. 10 km/hr would be more appropriate but it is so much better than the original 60 km/hr when I started living in the area.

Sadly, people that speed generally don’t pay attention to speed limit signs. You could have a giant neon “Speeding vehicles will be blown up with land mines” sign and it wouldn’t make any difference.

dungfungus said :

ChrisinTurner said :

I think the whole thing is a good idea except the signs saying ’20 km/hr’ and ‘shared zone’ are too high on the poles to be seen by most drivers. “Shared Zone” should be painted on the road at the entries. 10 km/hr would be more appropriate but it is so much better than the original 60 km/hr when I started living in the area.

Last time I drove there at 20km/hr I was overtaken by two bicycle riders resplendent in lycra with heads down.
The signs need to be painted on the road for them.

No-one should speed in the the Shareway. Paint the sign on the road for everybody. Put in speed humps for everybody. Lower the speed signs for everybody. Let’s abandon tribal warfare for safety outcomes that save human lives and prevent injury.

ChrisinTurner said :

I think the whole thing is a good idea except the signs saying ’20 km/hr’ and ‘shared zone’ are too high on the poles to be seen by most drivers. “Shared Zone” should be painted on the road at the entries. 10 km/hr would be more appropriate but it is so much better than the original 60 km/hr when I started living in the area.

Last time I drove there at 20km/hr I was overtaken by two bicycle riders resplendent in lycra with heads down.
The signs need to be painted on the road for them.

ChrisinTurner2:43 pm 26 Jul 15

I think the whole thing is a good idea except the signs saying ’20 km/hr’ and ‘shared zone’ are too high on the poles to be seen by most drivers. “Shared Zone” should be painted on the road at the entries. 10 km/hr would be more appropriate but it is so much better than the original 60 km/hr when I started living in the area.

I might add I think shared spaces develop a false sense of trust.

I teach my kids to never trust any car with a driver (including myself) and to always position themselves to the side of a car. Never in front or behind which are directions of travel. Doesn’t matter whether the car is slow moving or stationary, the exception being pedestrian crossings where they have to wait for the driver to stop. I don’t feel comfortable sitting down at a sidewalk cafe with cars parking nose in a meter away from tables.

Youtube is littered with examples of people hitting the accelerator instead of the brake. Mistakes happen and 1 ½ tons of vehicle is unforgiving.

Wonder how long shared spaces will last should malignant/religious narcissists and other nut jobs really start to catch on that cars are easier to procure than bombs and guns:

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2013/08/car-deadly-force/6421/

http://www.rt.com/news/202431-jerusalem-attack-car-israel/

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-21/three-dead-after-driver-ploughs-into-crowd-in-graz-austria/6561262

http://news.yahoo.com/man-shouting-allahu-akbar-drives-crowd-france-injuring-211915875.html

http://www.spin.com/2014/03/two-dead-at-sxsw/

http://www.news.com.au/world/car-driven-into-crowd-at-los-angeles-venice-beach-one-dead-11-hurt/story-fndir2ev-1226691080765

and then there’s the elderly/confused driver with the accelerator instead of brake mistake…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Monica_Farmers_Market_crash

I’m loathe to put it out there, but planners need to think about the unthinkable.

Of course, there’s nothing stopping someone from mounting a curb and ultimately there’s not much anyone can do, but shared spaces do seem to present a smorgasbord…

There can be a perceived danger risk with shared areas:
http://knowledge.allianz.com/mobility/transportation_safety/?1841/Why-making-streets-risky-improves-road-safety
I haven’t been to Bunda Street recently, but from the photographs it appears the road looks like business as usual and that is a problem.

JC said :

Fritz said :

Bring on the election… hopefully Canberra will vote in a more intelligent and responsible government next time.

Got anyone in mind? A Liebral goverment lead by Jeremy Hanson would be an absolute and utter joke. All they know what to do is say the opposite to the current government in the hope of getting voted in by default, rather than actually presenting themselves as a viable alternative.

My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately this is true at the Federal level as well. It’s become “vote for us because we’re not them”. This doesn’t look likely to change any time soon but it’s not just their fault, it’s us voters as well. We’ve become as a whole so jaded and disinterested we’ve allowed this tit for tat flip a coin method of changing governments to become entrenched. Nowadays if you write to your local or Federal member you seem like a nut job rather someone genuinely interested in how this country is being governed.

Fritz said :

The train will be another. Another contributor mentioned that “Northbourne Avenue is a car park in peak hour” – with the train along it Northbourne Avenue will be significantly worse as the Government wants to increase population density and congestion along this road to help justify the train. As Northbourne Avenue is a key thoroughfare (both locally and interstate) into the city it will totally stuff-up traffic flow.

If someone decides to move into a corridor overtly densified for light rail and plans to join the Northbourne car park instead of catching the train, well, on the plus side their workplace is spared from one stupid person for however long it takes them to get down Northbourne.

H2O said :

NOTE! It’s NOT a shared zone people! You’re lucky my brakes work.

Shared Zone, despite the name doesn’t mean the zone is shared. In essence they are treated as one massive pedestrian crossing where your meant to give way to all pedestrians even if walking at a snails pace, crossing diagonally or doing what ever they like.

Fritz said :

Bring on the election… hopefully Canberra will vote in a more intelligent and responsible government next time.

Got anyone in mind? A Liebral goverment lead by Jeremy Hanson would be an absolute and utter joke. All they know what to do is say the opposite to the current government in the hope of getting voted in by default, rather than actually presenting themselves as a viable alternative.

Genge Street

The number of times I’ve driven down Genge Street only to find pedestrians (mainly ATO staff), walking at a snail’s pace, with their morning caffeine fix, totally oblivious to vehicles.

NOTE! It’s NOT a shared zone people! You’re lucky my brakes work.

I am perplexed as to what the benefit of a share zone is. Roads are for cars and footpaths are for pedestrians. Why are we trying to combine the two? What problems were occurring for pedestrians and/or drivers that resulted in the shareway being developed to fix the problem. As a pedestrian/cyclist using the area, I will always still stop and let cars pass first. Unless there is a marked pedestrian crossing, this is what I will always do.

I’d have thought Bunda St would make a good terminus for the light rail. Put the tracks down Bunda St with stops for the Canberra Centre and Garema Place with the final stop somewhere near the Casino. This would then be easier to extend the line towards Constitution Avenue to Russell and the airport (which government have indicated interest on doing).

countach said :

The Bunda shareware is a death waiting to happen, plain and simple. There is nothing good about it.

ACT Government irresponsibly promotes mixing traffic types – pedestrians on roads, bicycles on roads, pedestrians on bike paths… all of these situations are dangerous and, in Canberra, unnecessary. These combinations only lead to injury and death. We have roads for cars, bike paths for bicycles, and foot paths for pedestrians… leave it that way – don’t mix them.

The Bunda Street Shareway is yet another example of an expensive ACT Government idea that doesn’t work.

The train will be another. Another contributor mentioned that “Northbourne Avenue is a car park in peak hour” – with the train along it Northbourne Avenue will be significantly worse as the Government wants to increase population density and congestion along this road to help justify the train. As Northbourne Avenue is a key thoroughfare (both locally and interstate) into the city it will totally stuff-up traffic flow.

I wasn’t aware that the Government is planning on slowing down traffic around City Hill… this is yet another stupid idea.

Bring on the election… hopefully Canberra will vote in a more intelligent and responsible government next time.

I am hearing what you are saying and agree to some extent. However, it would also be good if pedestrians were also able to show some consideration.
The number of occasions on which I have been at a crossing, where people cross from one section of the shopping centre to another, over a small road and seen people crossing in an unending stream. One by one by one. “Brown’s cows” was my mother’s description of it.
Very few pedestrians seem to think of making it possible for cars to pass as well.
As well as being a planning issue, it is a social issue. We all just need to be a little more considerate of each other.

Personally for the shared zones I would put the diagona striped zebra crossing markings on the road for the shared zones like they have at the front of bunnings stores at least for a while. To me these would nicely indicate a shared zone and be a colour that should be reasonably visible at night… Whether or not it would actually do what it is meant to do would be another question though…

dungfungus said :

bryansworld said :

dungfungus said :

The “shareway” in Bunda Street is just another reason why I avoid going into Canberra City.

…Do you pick-up your kids and the groceries on the way home with your bike?…

“Do you pick-up your…groceries on the way home with your bike?”
Many times.

Yep, me too. And sometimes I pick up our smallest in our bike trailer, and the other kids ride. And sometimes I drive. I’m not interested in tribal warfare, just safe and effective transport infrastructuire for all. BTW, bike lanes are not “exclusive”. Anyone can use them Just like roads.

Yep, and me too, not now, but when my daughter could pedal on the trailer-bike and was at childcare near my work.

The Bunda shareware is a death waiting to happen, plain and simple. There is nothing good about it. Personally I feel fearful crossing, which I didn’t before the changes. Before you knew where you stood, you didn’t expect cars to stop for you except at the designated crossings. Now you have no expectations, some cars insist on pushing through and trying to bowl you over, their speeds are way too high, and there is not enough traffic calming devices. It’s just an awful awful set of changes. Either close it completely to traffic, or put it back how it was. This half assed thing is plain awful.

bryansworld said :

But we still have the steps to nowhere at the back of the Civic Library!

Yeah isn’t that weird?

I skirt the barriers and cross the murderous 3 lanes of speeding traffic to climb over City Hill and do the same on the other side.

Planning has proposed the steep and unwelcoming hill as the centrepiece traffic island of City to the lake. Their answer to the obvious problems this causes will be to slow the traffic right down, ignoring that it is still 3 lanes of busy traffic.

Personally I would divert the traffic under and be ruthless with City Hill. Flatten it, with car parking and a transport hub under. Make it a sunny partially sheltered park/piazza linking to the rest of the city with broad walkways, cafes and the fresh start to a real heart for Canberra.

Design it to shield it from winter winds, with taller buildings to the south and west whilst catching winter sun and give the city a breathing living space worthy of the Capital.

JC said :

JC said :

bryansworld said :

creative_canberran said :

Paul Costigan said :

I did not comment on the traffic lights under the airbridge at the Canberra Centre – but I agree leaving them there just does not make sense.

I wonder who actually owns that crossing and the traffic lights? It’s a bit hard to tell on ActMapi but I kind of assumed it was part of the Canberra Centre title. In which case the lights are there because of their lawyers.

So it’s official, the mega mall owns a big chunk of Ainslie Avenue? There goes that Griffin axis.

Your about 15-20 years late.

Actually make that 26+ years late. Of course one part of Ainslie Ave was closed when the first stage was built in the mid 80’s, with the otherside closed in the 2nd redevelopment.

But we still have the steps to nowhere at the back of the Civic Library!

JC said :

bryansworld said :

creative_canberran said :

Paul Costigan said :

I did not comment on the traffic lights under the airbridge at the Canberra Centre – but I agree leaving them there just does not make sense.

I wonder who actually owns that crossing and the traffic lights? It’s a bit hard to tell on ActMapi but I kind of assumed it was part of the Canberra Centre title. In which case the lights are there because of their lawyers.

So it’s official, the mega mall owns a big chunk of Ainslie Avenue? There goes that Griffin axis.

Your about 15-20 years late.

Actually make that 26+ years late. Of course one part of Ainslie Ave was closed when the first stage was built in the mid 80’s, with the otherside closed in the 2nd redevelopment.

JC said :

bryansworld said :

creative_canberran said :

Paul Costigan said :

I did not comment on the traffic lights under the airbridge at the Canberra Centre – but I agree leaving them there just does not make sense.

I wonder who actually owns that crossing and the traffic lights? It’s a bit hard to tell on ActMapi but I kind of assumed it was part of the Canberra Centre title. In which case the lights are there because of their lawyers.

So it’s official, the mega mall owns a big chunk of Ainslie Avenue? There goes that Griffin axis.

Your about 15-20 years late.

I’ve looked, but have not been able find any documentation of the arrangement regarding Ainslie Avenue. There is something peculiar about it because there appears to be a right of way for bicycles through the part that goes from the traffic lights past Target to the bus stop?

JC said :

One point of order. Whilst the road rules do say vehicles etc must give way, no where does it say that anyone actually HAS right of way, so a bit hard to assert ones right of way.

Now before I get flammed, I do realise that in a shareway vehicles are meant to give way to pedestrians, but as mentioned that doesn’t mean pedestrians have right of way[/q

Maya123 said :

If it’s a shared area I can’t see that those lights should mean anything now and it should be okay to walk on red or green, because after all, this is a shared area. Because of that, I think those lights are dangerous, as they can be misleading. They need to be removed to ease confusion.

I think (need to be check) that there are signs indicating that the shared area does not include the traffic light area under the footbridge. Heavens knows why. Shammozzle!

bryansworld said :

creative_canberran said :

Paul Costigan said :

I did not comment on the traffic lights under the airbridge at the Canberra Centre – but I agree leaving them there just does not make sense.

I wonder who actually owns that crossing and the traffic lights? It’s a bit hard to tell on ActMapi but I kind of assumed it was part of the Canberra Centre title. In which case the lights are there because of their lawyers.

So it’s official, the mega mall owns a big chunk of Ainslie Avenue? There goes that Griffin axis.

Your about 15-20 years late.

Maya123 said :

If it’s a shared area I can’t see that those lights should mean anything now and it should be okay to walk on red or green, because after all, this is a shared area. Because of that, I think those lights are dangerous, as they can be misleading. They need to be removed to ease confusion.

If I am not mistaken the shared zone ends near Dobinsons, but would make sense to just extend the zone to the next intersection and do away with the lights.

creative_canberran said :

Paul Costigan said :

I did not comment on the traffic lights under the airbridge at the Canberra Centre – but I agree leaving them there just does not make sense.

I wonder who actually owns that crossing and the traffic lights? It’s a bit hard to tell on ActMapi but I kind of assumed it was part of the Canberra Centre title. In which case the lights are there because of their lawyers.

So it’s official, the mega mall owns a big chunk of Ainslie Avenue? There goes that Griffin axis.

If it’s a shared area I can’t see that those lights should mean anything now and it should be okay to walk on red or green, because after all, this is a shared area. Because of that, I think those lights are dangerous, as they can be misleading. They need to be removed to ease confusion.

One point of order. Whilst the road rules do say vehicles etc must give way, no where does it say that anyone actually HAS right of way, so a bit hard to assert ones right of way.

Now before I get flammed, I do realise that in a shareway vehicles are meant to give way to pedestrians, but as mentioned that doesn’t mean pedestrians have right of way

creative_canberran5:04 pm 22 Jul 15

Paul Costigan said :

I did not comment on the traffic lights under the airbridge at the Canberra Centre – but I agree leaving them there just does not make sense.

I wonder who actually owns that crossing and the traffic lights? It’s a bit hard to tell on ActMapi but I kind of assumed it was part of the Canberra Centre title. In which case the lights are there because of their lawyers.

Madam Cholet4:54 pm 22 Jul 15

I agree with your comment on the 40 zones. In Tuggers where I live, the 40 zones are policed with the use of speed bumps, which make it impossible to get over about 20ks before you get to the next one.

In the city however on London Circuit at surrounds there are no speed reducing mechanisms and as a consequence most drivers, including the police from the city station on London Circuit drive at 60 or above. I have notified numerous people, including ACT police, Shane Rattenbury and Joy Burch who have all promised to look into it. That was a quite some time ago.

If the police can’t drive to the speed limit the. Who else is going to!

Can someone help me, I am not sure which grocery stores or schools are located on Northbourne Avenue.

I am left wondering if dungfungus is one of those people who thinks that car registration covers road maintenance.

Maybe it’s also time to do a study of the impact on roads of large 4WDs versus compact cars versus bicycles. I’d happily pay registration for my bike if it was apportioned on this basis. I reckon about $5 a year!

Bunda St would have worked better if it was one way only with lots of chicanes to force vehicles to drive more slowly and regularly change direction. If people wanted two way traffic then they could have opened up City Walk to opposing one way traffic also – which would have increased activity along City Walk also. Parking should be limited to some sections only perhaps for disabled drivers and delivery vehicles.

If the whole of Bunda St is a shared zone – meaning that pedestrians have right of way – then the traffic lights on Bunda St are a nonsense. And I can understand why some heavy vehicles might need to use Bunda St but I cannot comprehend why buses are allowed down the street as one poster before noted.

I’m not convinced that the Government knows how to construct shared zones. The shared zone in the Weston carpark is an excellent example. There are unusual markings on the road that imply only some sections of each side of the road are shared zones and traffic isn’t slowed in any way meaning that drivers nearly always exert right of way.

Yep, the traffic lights under the airbridge ar the most bizarre thing. They undoubtedly contribute to the sense that many motorists have that they still have right of way when the lights are green!

Those metal planter border don’t seem to achieve much, as two cars can still pass eachother in the narrower stretches of the Shareway.

Holden Caulfield said :

I don’t mind driving down Bunda Street, I usually find it more satisfactory than the frustration of unsynchronised traffic lights on Cooyong Street.

And I still happily drive down Bunda Street. I don’t have a problem with the shareway concept, but agree it has not been explained well.

For example, I wasn’t aware that there was a 20km/h speed limit as explained in the TAMS link Paul provided in his article.

Since the shareway opened common sense has dictated a much lower speed than even the usual 40km/h zones in Civic are necessary, but it would be good to point this out with some signage.

The raised entries to the shareway with metal barriers do a good job of interrupting the drivers’ mindset but this should be reinforced with a simple sign that reads something like:

20km/h shareway. Give way to pedestrians at all times.

Haven’t we had the discussion about the cars before and how that has left City Walk and Petria Plaza something of a dead zone?

I would hope Bunda Street remains open to car traffic, at the very least (perhaps not buses as in the photo above), and that the issues raised here can be resolved over time.

Signs won’t help – there is a shared zone out the front of Cooleman Court and signs saying “vehicles must give way to pedestrians”, but I’ve yet to see it happen. When I’m driving, I give way as required, and everyone just looks at me dumbfounded like “what are you waiting for?”

It is rather dangerous to mix the two with everyone giving way to everyone – if you want Bunda Street to be pedestrian friendly, close it off completely to motorised traffic.

And don’t put more spine-jarring speed bumps around – if drivers can’t control their vehicle at or below the sign-posted speed limit, they shouldn’t be granted the privilege of driving on public roads. I fear the day when all the truck and bus drivers start filing workers’ comp claims for their wrecked backs after having to jolt over all these mid-lane traffic islands all day every day of their working life.

Personally, most of those 40km/h zones in shopping areas made little difference to me (with the exception of Marcus Clarke St in the City during non-peak times) – I always drove at an appropriate speed for the situation, which was often less than 40km/h anyway, and I didn’t need to be told it was a “high pedestrian area” – I could already see that with my eyes! Why is our government handing out driving licences to people who can’t even see pedestrians?

And OP “It is not uncommon to see pedestrians caught half way across a street being challenged by a vehicle that appears suddenly around the corner or from elsewhere that then demands the road at all costs.” – the road rules state that a driver turning into a road must give way to all traffic on that road INCLUDING PEDESTRIANS CROSSING THE ROAD. Perhaps we just need a road rules test before handing out licences, and a few police who can enforce all the road rules without being restricted to enforcing only the speed limits. Traffic in Canberra is becoming more and more like that of undeveloped countries where road rules are not enforced, and often not even known/understood.

I agree that maybe the Shareway needs more signs to alert motorists to the need to give way to pedestrians, and the lower speed limit. Perhaps also more measures to slow traffic, like bollards or speed humps would also be helpful. At the moment pedestrians are not prepared to risk stepping out in front of vehicles, because the vehicles are not giving way. Hello TAMS?

bryansworld said :

Maya123 said :

dungfungus said :

bryansworld said :

dungfungus said :

The “shareway” in Bunda Street is just another reason why I avoid going into Canberra City.
Our city planners are pushing incredibly expensive square peg innovations in to round holes.
Just because they may work somewhere else doesn’t mean they will work here.
The light rail will be the “Mother of All” planning mistakes.

Yeah, because designing Canberra for the car has worked so well. Have you noticed that Northbourne Avenue is becoming a car park at peak hour?

It isn’t a problem compared to other cities in Australia – it could be a lot worse if planning for the motor car in Canberra wasn’t done in the early days.
Does it bother you and your bicycle brethren in your exclusive taxpayer-funded bike lanes? Do you pick-up your kids and the groceries on the way home with your bike?
If you think it is bad now, wait until the light rail “value added” high density housing goes up along the strip.
As I said in my earlier post, it will be The Mother Of All planning disasters.

“Do you pick-up your…groceries on the way home with your bike?”
Many times.

Yep, me too. And sometimes I pick up our smallest in our bike trailer, and the other kids ride. And sometimes I drive. I’m not interested in tribal warfare, just safe and effective transport infrastructuire for all. BTW, bike lanes are not “exclusive”. Anyone can use them Just like roads.

I was referring to the bike lanes in Northbourne Avenue and where they are abutting roads that were designed for registered motor vehicles.

Maya123 said :

dungfungus said :

bryansworld said :

dungfungus said :

The “shareway” in Bunda Street is just another reason why I avoid going into Canberra City.
Our city planners are pushing incredibly expensive square peg innovations in to round holes.
Just because they may work somewhere else doesn’t mean they will work here.
The light rail will be the “Mother of All” planning mistakes.

Yeah, because designing Canberra for the car has worked so well. Have you noticed that Northbourne Avenue is becoming a car park at peak hour?

It isn’t a problem compared to other cities in Australia – it could be a lot worse if planning for the motor car in Canberra wasn’t done in the early days.
Does it bother you and your bicycle brethren in your exclusive taxpayer-funded bike lanes? Do you pick-up your kids and the groceries on the way home with your bike?
If you think it is bad now, wait until the light rail “value added” high density housing goes up along the strip.
As I said in my earlier post, it will be The Mother Of All planning disasters.

“Do you pick-up your…groceries on the way home with your bike?”
Many times.

Yep, me too. And sometimes I pick up our smallest in our bike trailer, and the other kids ride. And sometimes I drive. I’m not interested in tribal warfare, just safe and effective transport infrastructuire for all. BTW, bike lanes are not “exclusive”. Anyone can use them Just like roads.

dungfungus said :

bryansworld said :

dungfungus said :

The “shareway” in Bunda Street is just another reason why I avoid going into Canberra City.
Our city planners are pushing incredibly expensive square peg innovations in to round holes.
Just because they may work somewhere else doesn’t mean they will work here.
The light rail will be the “Mother of All” planning mistakes.

Yeah, because designing Canberra for the car has worked so well. Have you noticed that Northbourne Avenue is becoming a car park at peak hour?

It isn’t a problem compared to other cities in Australia – it could be a lot worse if planning for the motor car in Canberra wasn’t done in the early days.
Does it bother you and your bicycle brethren in your exclusive taxpayer-funded bike lanes? Do you pick-up your kids and the groceries on the way home with your bike?
If you think it is bad now, wait until the light rail “value added” high density housing goes up along the strip.
As I said in my earlier post, it will be The Mother Of All planning disasters.

“Do you pick-up your…groceries on the way home with your bike?”
Many times.

bryansworld said :

dungfungus said :

The “shareway” in Bunda Street is just another reason why I avoid going into Canberra City.
Our city planners are pushing incredibly expensive square peg innovations in to round holes.
Just because they may work somewhere else doesn’t mean they will work here.
The light rail will be the “Mother of All” planning mistakes.

Yeah, because designing Canberra for the car has worked so well. Have you noticed that Northbourne Avenue is becoming a car park at peak hour?

It isn’t a problem compared to other cities in Australia – it could be a lot worse if planning for the motor car in Canberra wasn’t done in the early days.
Does it bother you and your bicycle brethren in your exclusive taxpayer-funded bike lanes? Do you pick-up your kids and the groceries on the way home with your bike?
If you think it is bad now, wait until the light rail “value added” high density housing goes up along the strip.
As I said in my earlier post, it will be The Mother Of All planning disasters.

Holden Caulfield11:43 am 22 Jul 15

I don’t mind driving down Bunda Street, I usually find it more satisfactory than the frustration of unsynchronised traffic lights on Cooyong Street.

And I still happily drive down Bunda Street. I don’t have a problem with the shareway concept, but agree it has not been explained well.

For example, I wasn’t aware that there was a 20km/h speed limit as explained in the TAMS link Paul provided in his article.

Since the shareway opened common sense has dictated a much lower speed than even the usual 40km/h zones in Civic are necessary, but it would be good to point this out with some signage.

The raised entries to the shareway with metal barriers do a good job of interrupting the drivers’ mindset but this should be reinforced with a simple sign that reads something like:

20km/h shareway. Give way to pedestrians at all times.

Haven’t we had the discussion about the cars before and how that has left City Walk and Petria Plaza something of a dead zone?

I would hope Bunda Street remains open to car traffic, at the very least (perhaps not buses as in the photo above), and that the issues raised here can be resolved over time.

I stay off it as the law of physics will always trump ACT road laws.

I’ve also been abused by someone in a motor vehicle for having the nerve to ride my bicycle down the shareway. Not a lot of sharing happening.

dungfungus said :

The “shareway” in Bunda Street is just another reason why I avoid going into Canberra City.
Our city planners are pushing incredibly expensive square peg innovations in to round holes.
Just because they may work somewhere else doesn’t mean they will work here.
The light rail will be the “Mother of All” planning mistakes.

Yeah, because designing Canberra for the car has worked so well. Have you noticed that Northbourne Avenue is becoming a car park at peak hour?

bd84 said :

Bunda Street goes nowhere and there’s no reason to drive down it as all other roads in the area provide better access so it should be closed to traffic, other than local traffic for vehicles of business owners and for deliveries which could be accessed by specified points.

The share way is a half a**ed job raised the pavement of only a couple of sections and kept all the on street parking that doesn’t need to be there which reduces visibility of pedestrians and makes traffic ignore the zone except in those raised areas. Then there’s the counter intuitive sections where the shared zone ends for 200 metres at the traffic lights under the airbridge to make pedestrians wait for the lights? If they wanted to do it, it should have been done properly.

The more pedestrians show their assertiveness in the zone forcing the traffic to stop, the more it will happen. People stopping and giving way to traffic allows the behaviour to continue.

Agreed. I ride regularly through there and see many cars doing 40-50 km/h through there. Unsurprisingly, pedestrians (and bikes) are not prepared to assert their rights. Two things that contribute to this are the raised intersections, which people think are the only shared zones, and the retention of parking down both sides. It’s a great idea, but needs more work. Maybe speed humps to slow the traffic down? I fear nothing will be done to imporve the situation until a pedestrian gets skittled. I hope I am wrong.

pink little birdie10:17 am 22 Jul 15

To be fair most people avoided driving on Bunda Street before the shareway.
As a driver it was slow and irritating anyway particularly after the pedestrian crossing in the Canberra Centre went through

Paul Costigan10:16 am 22 Jul 15

Dear bd84

I did not comment on the traffic lights under the airbridge at the Canberra Centre – but I agree leaving them there just does not make sense. Maybe they though the foot traffic between buildings is too high during peak times. Which points to the next issue – should Bunda Street be open to traffic?

I agree with you – the whole street should not be open to general traffic – it should be for service vehicles only.

I remain positive about this initiative – the shareway is a great concept. But Bunda Street is not well designed. Shame really.

Bunda Street goes nowhere and there’s no reason to drive down it as all other roads in the area provide better access so it should be closed to traffic, other than local traffic for vehicles of business owners and for deliveries which could be accessed by specified points.

The share way is a half a**ed job raised the pavement of only a couple of sections and kept all the on street parking that doesn’t need to be there which reduces visibility of pedestrians and makes traffic ignore the zone except in those raised areas. Then there’s the counter intuitive sections where the shared zone ends for 200 metres at the traffic lights under the airbridge to make pedestrians wait for the lights? If they wanted to do it, it should have been done properly.

The more pedestrians show their assertiveness in the zone forcing the traffic to stop, the more it will happen. People stopping and giving way to traffic allows the behaviour to continue.

The “shareway” in Bunda Street is just another reason why I avoid going into Canberra City.
Our city planners are pushing incredibly expensive square peg innovations in to round holes.
Just because they may work somewhere else doesn’t mean they will work here.
The light rail will be the “Mother of All” planning mistakes.

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