How much fuel do you need?

Just wait until the bring in the gas turbine for the John Stanhope Memorial data centre they’re building underneath the ASIO building….

That’ll leave funny stains on the washing of the Campbellians! 🙂

dungfungus said :

I suspect there would be a similar set-up in Parliament house re emergency generators and fuel storage;…

There is. Two generators in fact. But I don’t recall seeing anything like a 600,000L tank.

Chop71 said :

Fuel does have a shelf life, well so I have been told

Yeah it has a shelf life unless your Shell or BP…..

Who cares, but im guessing its enough to prevent a catastrophic systems failure in the event of a disaster be it natural or manmade.

Fuel does have a shelf life, well so I have been told

JC said :

GardeningGirl said :

I feel bad for anybody living in the area who had concerns about the building and is now faced with a “we’ve already built the building so now you have to let us put in the fuel depot too” scenario. Is there a problem with me caring about what affects fellow Canberrans, or caring about how town planning decisions are pushed through?

Nothing wrong with caring about how this effects Canberrans, but tell me how does this effect Canberrans or should I say Campbellians? I mean to say it is fuel storage, not too dissimilar to a service station, which if I recall Campbell once had in the centre of the suburb? The main difference is the quantity which yes is more probably by about 3 times and of course it is located no where near the bulk of the houses. So what exactly is the issue?

I suspect there would be a similar set-up in Parliament house re emergency generators and fuel storage; also Canberra Hospital, half the clubs in Civic etc.

Little_Green_Bag said :

dazzab said :

I reckon that building is fake and just a diversion. The real ASIO is probably deep under the lake accessed from a secret door in the Carillon. But don’t tell anyone.

Actually this is not as far fetched and satirical as it might appear at first…

That’s right.

GardeningGirl said :

I feel bad for anybody living in the area who had concerns about the building and is now faced with a “we’ve already built the building so now you have to let us put in the fuel depot too” scenario. Is there a problem with me caring about what affects fellow Canberrans, or caring about how town planning decisions are pushed through?

Nothing wrong with caring about how this effects Canberrans, but tell me how does this effect Canberrans or should I say Campbellians? I mean to say it is fuel storage, not too dissimilar to a service station, which if I recall Campbell once had in the centre of the suburb? The main difference is the quantity which yes is more probably by about 3 times and of course it is located no where near the bulk of the houses. So what exactly is the issue?

dazzab said :

I reckon that building is fake and just a diversion. The real ASIO is probably deep under the lake accessed from a secret door in the Carillon. But don’t tell anyone.

Actually this is not as far fetched and satirical as it might appear at first.

In 1979 I read a newspaper article saying that a new spy headquarters would be built underground in the Parliamentary triangle and that there would be a secret tunnel leading to (Old) Parliament House for senior ministers to access. I remember seeing construction in the area at the time but no signs saying what was being constructed, unlike the new High Court and National Gallery sites.

In 2001 there was an open day at Old Parliament House and we were shown the old members’ and ministers offices. At one point there was a small corridor leading off to a door containing a push button security lock common in the 1970s and ’80s unlike other doors in the building which either had no locks or just plain deadlocks. I asked if we could go there and was told by the guide “Ah, no that’s no access”. Could that have been the door to the tunnel leading to the spy headquarters, if in fact the spy headquarters ever existed or still exists?

Wonder if they will sell by the litre? That way Finance / ASIO could make some money back on the $ blowout!

shauno said :

GardeningGirl said :

I-filed said :

I’m very surprised that this didn’t come up at the design stage. If it had, I imagine that there would have been a larger reaction than there likely will be now. I still find it strange that spooks would want such a prominent and easily identifiable building. It’s almost like they are chiseling away at what they need.

It will have come up at the design stage – I’m sure they strategically timed the request to be pretty much a fait accompli …

Just what I was thinking!
I usually have some sympathy for NIMBY’s because they’re the ones who have to live with the consequences so why shouldn’t they care. I did think the objections to the ASIO building weren’t really justified but now I’m disgusted by this attempt to sneak something else in later.

um why oh why are you concerned. lol

I feel bad for anybody living in the area who had concerns about the building and is now faced with a “we’ve already built the building so now you have to let us put in the fuel depot too” scenario. Is there a problem with me caring about what affects fellow Canberrans, or caring about how town planning decisions are pushed through?

Are ASIO planning on keeping this fuel in a stack of Jerry cans in the back yard? Or do the plans include 600k Litres worth of tanks? If so, did no one notice the tanks on the plan and ask what they were for? Or did they never show anyone that part of the plan, in which case why is this even being reported?

I wonder if the people in Campbell worried about this have any idea how many cubic metres of fuel is at Russell or Campbell Park? (or for that matter, in the secret bunker under the lake?)

GardeningGirl said :

I-filed said :

I’m very surprised that this didn’t come up at the design stage. If it had, I imagine that there would have been a larger reaction than there likely will be now. I still find it strange that spooks would want such a prominent and easily identifiable building. It’s almost like they are chiseling away at what they need.

It will have come up at the design stage – I’m sure they strategically timed the request to be pretty much a fait accompli …

Just what I was thinking!
I usually have some sympathy for NIMBY’s because they’re the ones who have to live with the consequences so why shouldn’t they care. I did think the objections to the ASIO building weren’t really justified but now I’m disgusted by this attempt to sneak something else in later.

um why oh why are you concerned. lol

I-filed said :

I’m very surprised that this didn’t come up at the design stage. If it had, I imagine that there would have been a larger reaction than there likely will be now. I still find it strange that spooks would want such a prominent and easily identifiable building. It’s almost like they are chiseling away at what they need.

It will have come up at the design stage – I’m sure they strategically timed the request to be pretty much a fait accompli …

Just what I was thinking!
I usually have some sympathy for NIMBY’s because they’re the ones who have to live with the consequences so why shouldn’t they care. I did think the objections to the ASIO building weren’t really justified but now I’m disgusted by this attempt to sneak something else in later.

US strategic petroleum reserve is around 727 million barrels of oil. Or around 160 litres x 727million = 116 billion or so litres haha.

JC said :

Years ago I used to work at one of the larger servo’s in town. If I recall we had two 4 separate tanks, the ones for super and unleaded were about 120,000l each and the premium and diesel tanks were about 60,000l each. So about 360,000 in total, or about half what ASIO is planning.

I personally don’t see what the issue is anyway. It’s not like diesel is going to go ka-boom like petrol vapours do. Diesel is a lot harder to ignite and when it does it will just burn rather than explode and of course it is much easier to put out as a result. Additionally considering it is going to be used for generators the storage and use of it is going to be much more controlled than fuel that is held and dispensed into vehicles at a servo. So really seems like a non issue being beat up by ill-informed ‘local residents’ and those that are anti anything new.

Agreed. They’re obviously planning for a worst case scenario. If the s**t hits the fan and the power is shut off then the Defence Department and Asio need supplies to keep them running. May be hard to send a couple of Junior staffers down to Caltex with 20L jerry cans to keep the generators running in the case of a National emergency or invasion.

As a matter of perspective, an Olympic swimming pool is 2.5 million litres minimum. This only a quarter of that. Imagine the stockpiles somewhere like the US would have set aside to run their Military. It’d probably make the new Cotter Dam look like a puddle.

JC said :

I personally don’t see what the issue is anyway. It’s not like diesel is going to go ka-boom like petrol vapours do. Diesel is a lot harder to ignite and when it does it will just burn rather than explode and of course it is much easier to put out as a result. Additionally considering it is going to be used for generators the storage and use of it is going to be much more controlled than fuel that is held and dispensed into vehicles at a servo. So really seems like a non issue being beat up by ill-informed ‘local residents’ and those that are anti anything new.

Given how close it is to the lake, it could be interesting if a leak occurs.

Mr Waffle said :

Well, when it goes up in flames, at least it’ll become another national tourist attraction we can be proud of?

This is 1500ltrs burning-

http://youtu.be/qzi8Ull24KQ

Gonna need a big hose!

Just fit a foam attachment to the Captain Cook Memorial Jet, and you’ll have an instant high capacity firefighting tool close at hand!

Years ago I used to work at one of the larger servo’s in town. If I recall we had two 4 separate tanks, the ones for super and unleaded were about 120,000l each and the premium and diesel tanks were about 60,000l each. So about 360,000 in total, or about half what ASIO is planning.

I personally don’t see what the issue is anyway. It’s not like diesel is going to go ka-boom like petrol vapours do. Diesel is a lot harder to ignite and when it does it will just burn rather than explode and of course it is much easier to put out as a result. Additionally considering it is going to be used for generators the storage and use of it is going to be much more controlled than fuel that is held and dispensed into vehicles at a servo. So really seems like a non issue being beat up by ill-informed ‘local residents’ and those that are anti anything new.

arescarti42 said :

660,000L is almost spot on $1 million worth of diesel at a price of $1.5L, which i find interesting.

You may also find it interesting then that off-road users of diesel fuel, ie cranes, excavators and generators receive a rebate for the circa 40c excise that road users pay for their diesel.

Also with truck fuel capacities up around 1000L, your 130,000 litre truck stop could only fuel 130 trucks.

arescarti42 said :

660,000L is almost spot on $1 million worth of diesel at a price of $1.5L, which i find interesting.

lol, I doubt someone buying 660,000L of fuel is going to pay the retail price on it.

At the same time, I wouldn’t find a figure like that all that surprising for a Department’s fuel bill. How much do people think the APS spends on fuel for their fleet vehicles in a year?

I wouldn’t mind seeing ASIO use bio-diesel, wonder if the Greens can pull a finger out and encourage that?

2620watcher said :

Any idea how much fuel an ‘average’ petrol station stores in its underground tanks?

I have an ex underground tank gravity feeding my garden their bore water. It’s 68,000L in size. So assume 3 or 4 of them in an average petrol station (diesel, ULP, PULP, E10).

So say a shade under 300Kl.

So ASIO are looking to store twice what a petrol station does?

Doesn’t sound that bad.

Some unverified sources on the interwebs suggest that storage at petrol stations ranges from about 40,000L for a small, local shops type servo, up to 130,000L for large, truck stop on the Hume High way type servos. It is probably not an unreasonable assertion, that sort of storage capacity would be fuel for about 600 – 1900 cars with 70 litre tanks, and I’m pretty sure most petrol stations get fuel deliveries every couple of days at the most.

It is worth pointing out that the Times article says ASIO want 660,000L of fuel, which is closer to 700,000L than 600,000L. So 660,000L would be 5 – 16.5 times what is stored at a service station, if you believe the interwebs.

660,000L is almost spot on $1 million worth of diesel at a price of $1.5L, which i find interesting.

2620watcher said :

Any idea how much fuel an ‘average’ petrol station stores in its underground tanks?

I have an ex underground tank gravity feeding my garden their bore water. It’s 68,000L in size. So assume 3 or 4 of them in an average petrol station (diesel, ULP, PULP, E10).

So say a shade under 300Kl.

So ASIO are looking to store twice what a petrol station does?

Doesn’t sound that bad.

If my memory serves me correctly (which it may not) some of the medium/large shell servos around the joint had in the order of 250,000 – 500,000L total divided between 4-8 tanks.

It’s understandable that ASIO would want plenty of fuel available to run the generators in the event of a major failure or event, but the problem will be that the fuel will eventually go off, and then they will need to work out how to dispose of, and replace it in a sensible manner.

Many data centres around town have diesel tanks to run their generators, but not that amount.

It would be interesting to see the actual threat assessments and business impact analysis that was used to arrive at a figure of 600,000 litres.

Any idea how much fuel an ‘average’ petrol station stores in its underground tanks?

I have an ex underground tank gravity feeding my garden their bore water. It’s 68,000L in size. So assume 3 or 4 of them in an average petrol station (diesel, ULP, PULP, E10).

So say a shade under 300Kl.

So ASIO are looking to store twice what a petrol station does?

Doesn’t sound that bad.

I reckon that building is fake and just a diversion. The real ASIO is probably deep under the lake accessed from a secret door in the Carillon. But don’t tell anyone.

Just common sense really. Better to be prepared for anything then not.

600,000 litres is about 600 cubic metres or a space I think its a space of 8.4m height by width and length if its a box shape but my dodgy math might be wrong.

PoQ said :

Once the attack happens, it’ll be the police who’ll track the baddies down,

Got news for you, ASIO has moved beyond the Cold War chasing commies focus. They would be very much involved.

Also, might want to change “Once the attack happens” to “If an attack happens” – way you said it sounds a tad too definite and may just earn a visit from ASIO.

Spooks in this country seem to crave publicity. Every few weeks we seem to get an update about the ASIO building and some new way of spending more money.

It is worth remembering that until 1977 the security forces were in fact secret. ASIO was the only one known to the public. Malcolm Fraser as PM in May 1977 gave details about ASIS, ONA, DSD and JIO in a speech to Parliament. Since then they’ve hardly been out of the news at all.

And I would have thought that having a huge building in a very exposed position along one of Canberra’s main ceremonial thoroughfares on the shores of LBG would be just asking for trouble.

johnboy said :

Considering we’d want asio very much up and running in the event of major sabotage of the power grid, perhaps not a bad idea?

If ASIO couldn’t prevent the putative attack, then they’re falling down on their job. Once the attack happens, it’ll be the police who’ll track the baddies down, and the power company’s sparkies who’ll get the system going again – assuming they can get the parts from China.

Sounded like a reasonable argument until you started with that biggest genny/10 years nonsense. As it turns out they have many, and the 1.5gwh is only 2000kw for a month. Big buildings use lots of power, and these guys will be looking at a monthly power bill of probably 200-300k

I’m very surprised that this didn’t come up at the design stage. If it had, I imagine that there would have been a larger reaction than there likely will be now. I still find it strange that spooks would want such a prominent and easily identifiable building. It’s almost like they are chiseling away at what they need.

It will have come up at the design stage – I’m sure they strategically timed the request to be pretty much a fait accompli … on the bright side, maybe interest in the redevelopment slated for next to Anzac Parade, and in prime position for a roasting, toasting & broiling in the event of any diesel fireball disaster, might drop off a little.

Well, a 2MW generator burns about 500 L/hr, so if you have 4 of those running at full load that much fuel would only last 2 weeks.

It would be a pretty big computer that requires 8 MW, though… And if you’re looking at 2 weeks without the grid you probably have bigger problems.

This sounds more like after the end of the world lets rebuild we will need some fuel!

“modern diesel plant will consume between 0.28 and 0.4 litres of fuel per kilowatt hour at the generator terminals.”

0.6 Million litres = 1.5 Gigawatt hours!

Enough to protect us from the terrists.

Well, when it goes up in flames, at least it’ll become another national tourist attraction we can be proud of?

This is 1500ltrs burning-

http://youtu.be/qzi8Ull24KQ

Gonna need a big hose!