NRMA blasts ACT Govt over Greed Cameras

Hmm – funding cuts to charities that look after druggies and mental health = madness and mayhem in Civic?

I often see various local pollies out and about at lunchtime so they must know what it is like out there.

“How bout the ACT Govt donates all speed camera revenue to charity?”

Damn right. Government cut funding to charities very badly in the last budget and I don’t think its any better in the current budget.

No, speed limits aren’t guides, but the suggestion that they’re always accurately placed is laughable.

People have already named Lanyon Drive. How about the ridiculous section of 80kph past the “Alexander Maconochie Centre” on the Monaro Highway?

If I had the time I could think of tonnes of other examples of ridiculous speed zones.

I don’t think people would tailgate if the safe & responsible drivers out there didn’t do 5 to 10kph under the limit. I’ve caught myself tailgating when I keep expecting the car in front of me to wake up and realise that they’re doing 60 in an 80 zone, but then *I* wake up and realise they’re just an idiot and slow down myself.

People that have all the time in the world also think that it’s fine to take four and a half years to go from zero to whatever-the-speed-limit-is when coming off an intersection or a roundabout. I’m not suggesting that they floor it and get to the limit for the sake of it, but dicking around getting to the limit out of laziness or carelessness is just stupidity.

There are a thousand causes of accidents, and for my mind the “safe” drivers are just as responsible as those that do 10 over the limit.

As for the new cameras – let’s forget for the moment the fact that they’re in stupid places. The fact that the Monaro Hwy cameras a) don’t have signs warning drivers about their presence, and b) are HIDDEN BEHIND OTHER SIGNS, is a big pointer for me that they’re not there to serve as a deterrent, but to cash in.

That is irresponsible government.

A press release from Stanhopeless a while back suggested that they looked forward to the day when Canberrans reduced the amount of speeding revenue the government collects. RUBBISH. How bout the ACT Govt donates all speed camera revenue to charity? Would they be as sneaky or stupid with their placement then? Doubtful.

foetn = often. It’s the anicent Greek spelling:)

“Speed limits are in place for a reason…”

Please tell me the reason why it’s 80 on the dual carriage way between Canberra Av and Jerrabombra. please. You say there’s a reason so you must share it with us. I’ll admit it here, right now, I do that road at 90 until the speed camera. So does almost everyone else. So why should I obey a little sign that says 80 that is so blatently revenue raising tool? I don’t speed foetn, but that is one place where I technically do. So why is it wrong along that stretch?

Wow some pretty heated comments up here.

My view, Fixed camera’s don’t increase road safety, More Police is too expensive, So why not have a couple more speed vans? Nobody knows where they will be set up, forcing drivers to slow down. It’s those arrogant drivers in the ACT (and there are a lot of them) that are the ones contributing to revenue. Speed limits are in place for a reason, they are not a guide, and this idea that Canberrans think they can do 10kms over the limit shows how poor their driving skills are.

shoot tailgaters – prob’ly fix most of the speed and red/yellow light running too…

2 seconds – is it that hard to count to two??

i liked woody’s rant. good on ya, woody. and yes, rawhide k2, tea is served in the slow lane. scone?

The problem is people just drive as normal up to green lights. If the light has been green the whole time you are driving up to it then ideally you should slow a little expecting you might have to stop. You shouldn’t be screaming up to it, and then slamming on the brakes. It’s not as if the light changing is totally unexpected.

Hardly see anyone go through and red light? I see someone push the ‘Yellow’ and go through red lights every day.

As for the cab driver probably tailgating otherwise he would have been able to stop.

Sepi – I agree with you. My point was more the purist view that better skills would be more effective in accident prevention. In the real world, speed limits play a critical role. It’s just a matter of getting them right, and being sensible about compliance measures to ensure the best outcomes.

cranky, is it possible to get the government to increase the time the yellow lasts to make sure people can know that they could actually cross without fear of being booked. The only issue I see is that then more people will push through the yellow light. On a side note… I really dont get red light cameras…. I hardly ever see anyone go through a red light.

Further to my previous post.
Passing through the Hindmarsh Drive/Yamba Drive intersection this afternoon, I saw a friend swapping details with a taxi driver. The cab had just run into the rear of my friend’s car.
I later found out that the friend had been approaching the lights, the lights turned orange, he had jumped on the brakes as the red light camera was there, and the cab came into contact.
Friend stated he would have safely gone through the orange if at any other set of lights, but the camera caused him to brake strenuously.
Can he send the bill to ACT gov?

VY not everyone’s decision making is split second, and for this reason speed limits are set for lowest common denominator of drivers, rather than to rally driver standards.

Oh, and I’ve never been booked for ANYTHING in the V8!

My grip of the realities of safely operating a motor vehicle stem from a knowledge of high school physics, from a working knowledge of road crash statistics and from assessing risk for a living – unoike yours”

I studied physics as part of my undergrad engineering degree, and my post grad master of science. I am a professional technical risk manager for living (and a very well paid one at that). I too can read statistics, and remember them.

Get as cranky as you like pal – your arguments are about as credible as your driving. When you stop sprouting the mind numbing crapola the government uses to gull us, I might start listening to what you say. Take the comment about the difference between 100 and 110 – a second of reaction time coupled to the correct rapid decision makes all the difference, not the 10km/h speed differential. I know it’s hard to hear with your head up your ass, but come back when you have something other than regurgitated fear-mongering to offer.

I want to give my 2c as a recent ACT immigrant.

The ACT cams are woeful.

FACTOID
Canberra’s arterial roads feature a significant number of drivers who just drove in from NSW — tourists in cars, freight by truck, schoolie AWM coaches, people doing sport fixtures, people attending EPIC dog shows blah blah blah.

Pt1 -These visitors find themselves taxed by ACT cameras, usually blindsided since they are unaware of the local rinky dink set up. They’re trained to scan for big blue POLICE and RTA insignia signworks (x3) up to 400m distance stating the legal speed at the camera etc. (Welcome to Canberra).

Pt2 -Woe if you (the knowledgable local) are following a NSW vehicle on the Parkway or elsewhere when the unknowledge visitors spot the rinky dink warning sign and get antsy all of sudden and hit the brakes.!

Maybe the script goes:

NSW Back seat driver: “WTF? Is it real? I think its 100 here. It could be 90…”

NSW Driver: “I dunno either. When was the last speed sign? Well, stuff it, I’ll do 80 because I’ve only half my points left as it is…”

——–

Safty cam signage in NSW includes 2 or 3 speed limit signs and a big POLICE BADGE. The Parkway is a 100km zone, similar to the M4 and M3 in Sydney where the crash investigation officers (and ambulance chasers) have sorted it out in the courts already.

Please Jon, get these ACT cameras up to NSW standard FGS. Its 2007 and this local rules/rinky dink “Speed camera ahead” signage is objectively unsafe.

Who has to die here to adopt the safety conclusions already reached in NSW?

And it begs the question: if we can have Federal standards for vehicles, transport drivers etc, why not a Federal standard for speed cameras?

“Whenever a marked cop car is around, all the tailgaters drop off everyone’s tails!”
Well, not this one car that tailgated me through a 60 zone in Griffith. Oh wait, that was the marked police car. And it didn’t have its lights on.

“speed camera on Lanyon dr, Between Qbn and Jerra”
The worst speed camera and speed zone in Australia. Heck even the world. 80kp/h on dual carriage way, that is as straight as the Hume where you can go at 120 in places. But to their credit, they do have more than enough warning signs.

Well it is simple maths. The mobile speed cameras got their best returns at the locations where the fixed speed cameras are now being located.

This frees up the mobile speed cameras to patrol other locations. Simple!

The other thing is that fixed speed cameras in NSW have a lot of signs leading up to them, but the ones in Canberra only have one small sign.

If some one can take a couple of photos of the signs leading up to the speed camera on Lanyon dr, Between Qbn and Jerra, and then compare this to the signs leading up to the fixed speed cameras in the ACT, you would be hard pressed not to assume the ACT government is doing anything other than revenue raising

Back out of the box. Lets face it . Its the Law..Don’t speed or run Red lights and you wont have a thing to worry about. So what if it takes you and extra three to five minutes to get where your gong. Relax, Be happy….Is it tea time yet?

Wow Woody, some rant!

The whole arguement is grey. Many speed limits are lower than the 85% average that are the optimum setting. The majority of drivers are more than capable of driving at their comfortable speed for the conditions. That this speed exceeds the limit has more to say about the limit than their capabilities. We are referring to experienced drivers in modern vehicles here.
It now goes downhill. The rules need to encompass the inexperienced, overconfidant, undermaintained sector of the roadusing fraternity.
So the rules are written to comply with the lowest common denominator.
I am becoming convinced that the orange period of traffic lights is less than ideal, particularly any downhill section requiring (far) greater braking effort to avoid the red. In particular, the Hindmarsh Drive/Yamba Drive camera has probably caused more accidents than it has prevented. I have certainly come close to being nailed from behind.
I don’t know the answer, but I grumble like hell at the inappropriate speed limits, and the well hidden speed cameras generating revenue, rather than a Police presence assisting compliance with the less revenue contributing faults of red light running, tailgating, and non indication of lane change.

I’d much prefer that Woody’s post be deleted as it is fowl and abusive.

Not the first time, mind you.

So are those two new speed cameras on the Monaro Highway in Hume operational yet?

All,

Lay off the personal abuse or i will shut the thread down.

last warning

Unmarked police cars are useless, because the visual deterent that the cops are watching isn’t there. Whenever a marked cop car is around, all the tailgaters drop off everyone’s tails! Tailgaters know what they are doing, and they know it’s wrong. Tailgating in Canberra is epidemic, and it’s bloody stupid.

“I’m also required to undertake annual advanced driver training.”

People, we are in the presence of a most distinguished person. Woody is the guy who drives the Bat Mobile at WB Movie World. All hail Woody.

Woody, such an appropriate name for someone I would probably call a “prick”

First of all, don’t call me sunshine. I don’t want to be associated with something that you appear to think shines out of your arse.

“I have a perfect driving record. I’m also required to undertake annual advanced driver training”
I didn’t ask for your life story. Just if you drive. My 88 year old Grandfather has to go for driving lessons each year, doesn’t mean he is a good driver.

I don’t have a criminal record or ever had a fine in my life. I am stating that speed camera’s don’t really protect drivers. You can pull out your fucking compass and ruler and try to prove that it takes a quarter of a millimetre more to stop if you are wearing crap shoes or whatever the fuck you are on about, but in the end, it comes down to how well people drive. Police on the streets would help weed out people who weave in and out of traffic like idiots.

I hope the next time you need assistance from a police officer, you are greeted by a Gatso.

As for visiting the head trauma ward, what a great idea! LOL! I have a suggestion for you, how about you visit a nursing home for boring old fuck beige camry drivers.

Woody, you haven’t a fucking clue. Do you even drive?

Yes, and I have a perfect driving record. I’m also required to undertake annual advanced driver training. Thanks for asking.

Now here’s a fucking clue-by-four for you, sunshine. We don’t need coppers to catch silly little fucktards like you – we just keep fining you, and taking points off your license. Safety doesn’t enter into it with you, because you’re too stupid to learn, have too much of an ego to think the law should apply to you, and too selfish to think about what your stupidity will do to others. Do you even check the dribble you write for any semblence of internal consistency? Speed cameras are bad because you just slow down for them, and we should have more coppers – because you see them, and slow down for them? Silly little cocksmoker.

Your grip on the realities of safely operating a motor vehicle seem tenuous at best.

My grip of the realities of safely operating a motor vehicle stem from a knowledge of high school physics, from a working knowledge of road crash statistics and from assessing risk for a living – unoike yours, which comes from living in a no-dick compensating ‘look at me – I’m Peter Brock meets Stuntman Mike because I speed on back roads’, gutless, cowardly, irresponsible and immature fantasy world more befitting a 15-year-old child than a grown man.

Work out the differences to your reaction time, braking distance and force of impact when you’re doing 110 instead of 100, then come back and tell me why you think you should be exempt from these laws of nature, or why you think incurring those risks is safer than not incurring them, or why you think the law doesn’t apply to you.

Go visit a head trauma ward – it’s full of people like you, recovering with the help of fifteen fucking billion dollars a year of our tax dollars. Sometimes I think you must already be there, tapping out your bullshit with a wand in your teeth, neurons barely flickering in the half a brain you have left.

All this boils down to for you moronsis that you think you’re above the law, and you can’t help but cry like little bitches when technology catches up with you. Suck it up like men, or start acting like one and stop speeding, you pimple-dicked try-hards.

We all know that having a whinge here isn’t going to affect the ‘experts’ in ACT roads one iota, however I hope that when the boffins eventually decide that the focus on speeding as the major problem on our roads was misplaced, we at least get the credit for sayiong ‘we told you so!’

Consider the following:

Unrealistically low speed limits on wide open straight stretches of roads can and do lead to an increase in accidents due to boredom and complacency on the part of the dumbed down drivers.

Following the car in front too closely (less than a full 2 second gap) is a much greater cause of accidents than speeding

A fair percentage of the driving population has never been taught to look sufficiently far ahead to recognise danger signals well in advance, I have experienced drivers whose attention and focus seems to be at a spot about 40 metres ahead, these are THE MOST DANGEROUS idiots on our roads.

Inappropriate speeding should be more of an offence, ie if the traffic is very light with 200m between vehicles, up to 10-20km/hr over the limit shouldn’t be considered unsafe, whereas if the roads are chockers, even driving at the limit inappropriately should become a possible offence.

In clear conditions on a dry road, speed limits in light traffic should be more flexible, while they should become absolute to even 3km/hr in rain and at dusk or at night.

Do the road safety boffins seriously think that the fixed speed cameras, or even the mobile speed cameras, have any effect on the kind of driver who is involved in an accident due to high speed?? The overwhelming majority of what you and I would call speeding accidents are in areas and in circumstances way beyond the reach of the speed camera effect.

As mentioned many times, the constant requirement for motorists to monitor the speedo for inadvertent crossing of some arbitrary line on their speedo that in a lot of cases in the ACT is only loosely related to road conditions means that drivers are more likely to not see something important in the distance or in the peripheral vision with often more serious consequences than is caused by a few km/hr over the limit.

Also the plethora of inappropriate speed limits on the roads creates a general feeling of absurdity about all the speed limits around, which leads to a lack of respect for the meaningful limits as there is no real way of telling the idiotic limits from the sensible ones. For instance, from Wamboin to Queanbeyan, on a stretch of road many NSW councils would give their entire roads budget to emulate, the limit has been set at 80km/hr. This and other ridiculous limits are basically ignored by sensible motorists who just keep a sharper eye out for any dickhead cop who thinks it is in the community’s interest to enforce such a limit, and do 100km/hr as the road engineers intended.

Finally, for anyone (other than the closed minded boffins who skulk about the ACT Roads offices) who would like to use Google, there are many examples around of statistics that quite plainly point to increases in accident rates rather than decreases where speed limits have been set artificially low and then enforced rigrously. One of the most potent examples is the US state of Montana where the removal of open speed limits (a la NT) was conclusively shown to lead to an increase in the accident rate and casualties. Not to mention that the Economist survey of speed limits a few years ago pointed a pretty clear link between speed limits and accidents per 100,000 car trips, the more draconian the limits, the higher the overall rate of crashes. Germany scored very well, the US and Australia similarly about the middle of the pack, while NZ, where most roads have limits 10km/hr slower than the equivalents in Aust, had a much higher crash rate.

I rest my case.

i utilised my knowledge of the cash cow on saturday when i was driving down the parkway.
my partner asked me why i was slowing down, and i just pointed, then sped up

By the way, the 80kmh limit on the new Gungahlin Drive is a joke too – but at least they don’t have a camera on it yet!

They do, right near G Lakes. Installed about a month or so ago. I think it only catches people speeding on Gundaroo Drive though.

I have absolutely no problem with the fixed or movable cameras. Recently there was a story in the CT (Robert Downie) about how a bloke was sent a warning (not an infringement) for entering a YELLOW light. He lodged a protest so they jacked it up to a fine!

Serves him right! But the advantage for me was that I checked out the relevant law and confirmed that it is, indeed, an offense to enter a yellow light if you had reasonable time to stop.

My driving habits have changed as a result and it must have cost me all of ten minutes in the three months or so since I made this discovery – thanks to a fixed camera which did not even lodge a fine (until the smart-alec decided to argue).

I saw an unmarked car pull over a motorist last weekend. I could not think of the last time I had seen someone pulled over by an unmarked car…

The Speed Cameras in Canberra are not designed to stop accidents. The cameras on the Barton Highway and Tuggeranong Parkway are pathetic revenue raisers and nothing to do with road safety.

By the way, the 80kmh limit on the new Gungahlin Drive is a joke too – but at least they don’t have a camera on it yet!

-crossing to wrongside of road
-drunk/drug driving
-unsafe/poorly maintained vehicles
-unregistered driving?
These are just some of the problems on the road that, apart from the speed sometimes assosiated with them, speed cameras do not pickup. Ok, put in speed cameras. But not at the expence of an actually Police pressence on the road.
Since speed cameras were introduced, I have seen far less Police checks on Canberra’s roads. It used to be twce a year that going up the Barton or on Drakeford Dr, you would get pulled over by Police and Vehicle inspectors for an RPT and they would check your vehicle. I haven’t been checked for over 5 years now. And Police laser checks are about twice a year, down from 6-10 five years ago in my experience.

WMC – cameras have a place in law enforcement. They’re just not the panacea that ACT GovCo wants us to believe they are.

Yes, they are a tax on the stupid.
Yes, if you obey the law you won’t get caught.
No, they do not (in my opinion) improve road safety apart from the 100m surrounding the camera.
No, they are not a replacement for trained police officers enforcing ALL applicable road statutes.

Sure, more cops would cost more money. Law enforcement is not a for-profit exercise. Speed cameras are all about revenue, and telling the population otherwise is bullsh!t.

Special G. I stop if it is safe to stop at a yellow. Basically, if I have time to stop I will. If I am unable to stop in a safe time then I go though it.

Ditto. Ive never been busted, but I doubt I would be harming anyone even if I did. I’m at more risk by average joe Camry driver not looking in his mirrors.

WMC – I try to be patient when we have differing viewpoints, because this is supposed to be about making comments and engaging in discussion. But seriously, mate, have you ever even gotten behind the wheel of a car? Your grip on the realities of safely operating a motor vehicle seem tenuous at best. And no, I have never been pinged by a speed camera.

Dressing these things up as safety devices is a bare faced lie. Supporting that perspective is laughable.

Heres a good idea. Why don’t we all stop breaking the Red light and speeding laws and see how much it really costs the community to have all these cameras. Back in my box.

captainwhorebags is right. Woody, you haven’t a fucking clue. Do you even drive?

The sight of coppers on the road will make me drop speed and shit my pants at the same time. Plus they will help catch bad drivers, not just people who speed.

These aren’t the issues the ACT Gov care about though, they just love the bags with the big dollar sign that get dropped on their desk.

What money? How many police can you buy for the cost of a speed camera? What are police going to do anyway – engage in more costly high-speed pursuits? If fixed and mobile roadside cameras aren’t a deterrent, what makes you think a couple of extra police covering the whole of the ACT will make a difference? We’re dealing with people who talk candidly about “safe speeding” and who whinge when people obey traffic signals, so it’s a bit precious of them to be skeptical about the government’s commitment to road safety.

Maybe things would be better if the government abandoned all pretense and called them “tard taxers”. Then there’d be nothing to complain about.

WMC – I don’t have a problem with speed cameras because, as you said, they punish people who are breaking the law.

What I do have a problem with is the justification of cameras as “safety devices” when I don’t think they are. I’d rather see that money go towards more police patrols (both marked and unmarked), or used in higher risk areas or as Thumper said, in school zones. Red light cameras are only a good thing IMHO.

If only Gatso made a “moron doing circle work in the neighbourhood at 1am” camera. I’d happily support that.

The camera on Barton Highway is a joke. In the UK, they have the balls to stand up to this kind of crap: http://www.speedcam.co.uk/index2.htm

They’re extremely effective. They simultaneously punish people who break the law and build our coffers allowing increased spending on services. They do this without expensive manpower, all day, every day.

Seriously, it amazes me that you’re all happy to bitch and moan about revenue raising on one hand but happily take expensive government services with the other. Then again, if you’re complaining, chances are it’s because you’ve been done for speeding, so you’re not the brightest crayons in the box to begin with, are you?

Watch Northbourne intersection at the moment with London Circuit. Roadworks and a 40km speed limit. They may well have recalibrated the speed camera just for that.

Personally I’d like to see more marked police presence on the roads. Twice yesterday I had morons turn in front of me without giving way requiring me to stand hard on the anchors so I didn’t hit them. Having more police presence deters a lot of this kind of carelessness, especially if police were to issue more tickets relating to basic road behaviour (eg fail to keep left when not overtaking, fail to use indicator, fail to give way, fail to stop at stop sign, etc).

The sad thing is that everyone knows speed cameras are nothing but revenue raising, but what can we do about it? Locals learn fairly quickly where the cameras are and realise that with reduced police presence, they can speed pretty much everywhere else, and slow down for the scameras. It’s a total waste of time in terms of road safety. What we really need are measures to keep traffic moving.

Bighead it’s drivers like you who think going through yellow lights is good, push the odd red light and cause accidents. Go back and check the road rules on yellow lights. Asp probably knows them, better than you do.

I forgot to add the important bit: The relevance of the above is that a revenue-starved territory government will look at the numbers and work out that a territory with a population of 400,000 should be able to generate ($800m / 5,000,000 [pop Vic] x 400,000 [pop ACT]) $64,000,000 concurrent revenue, i.e. every single year.

There is no way the ACT govt will be able to resist, esp since the political backlash will be less than Vic’s as many drivers here are visitors and not voters.

In Vic, now up to $800m from $500m *per annum* with *1 in 3* drivers ticketed. I simply refuse to believe 1 in 3 people are driving unsafely.

As I said before, insurance companies no longer ask Vic drivers for their ticket history. To put it another way, insurance companies, who have a vested interest in not insuring drivers that have crashes, no longer believe there is a statistical link between getting a ticket and that person driving unsafely.

If there is no link, why does the Govt still issue a ticket? Revenue.

“Anyone noticed a recent slow down on the Tuggeranong Parkway near Cotter Road?”

Yeah and it’s getting annoying. Everyone for two days in a row going past there slowed to 80kp/h in a 100 zone. I (ashamedly still on my L plates, I started late) overtook them and kept to 95. Come on , its just wrong when L platers in Corollas overtake Commodore SS. Not only are they revenue raisers, but they’ll cause more accidents than they prevent.

I had a trailer load of stuff last week on Gininderra Drive. Coming towards the speed camera, the light went yellow with enough time for me to get through… but the car in front has slammed on their brakes. I was bloody scared trying to slam on my brakes and have my tyres lock up while trying to stop a trailer. They are poorly planned and only used for revenue. I have almost had a good 5 crashes due to people just slamming on the brakes to stop for a only just turned yellow light.

um, lots of multi cars on the Parkway near Cotter Road. Something to do with merging traffic?

Anywhere they install those things on a straight, wide bit of road, they are just after money, full stop. Less policing, more money-gathering. Poor government.

…and install cameras on long straight stretches of road where drivers are safely exceeding the speed limit.

Anyone noticed a recent slow down on the Tuggeranong Parkway near Cotter Road?