The Electric Car drives by Canberra

But think of the many millions who’ll never be born into suffering and economic slavery as a result of killing their parents before they could conceive!
So its almost like we’d be doing future non-generations a favour by running our machines with human suffering…
</sarcasm>

The only problem with biofuels is the millions of third world children you’ll kill by taking arable land out of food production.

Emissions in themselves aren’t always a problem. With biofuels, the emissions are simply releasing carbon dioxide that was removed from the atmosphere while the plant from which the fuel was made was growing.

Biofuels may still create emissions, but their emissions contain much fewer pollutants, and are a renewable energy source (considered carbon neutral because the carbon released was just recently removed from the atmosphere, and will be reabsorbed by the next crop)
They also have the advantage of reducing our dependency on foreign oil and the price fixing by global cartels such as OPEC

Just because a solution isn’t perfect, it shouldn’t be ignored

All electric may be the future ideal, but the obstacles of battery technology, power distribution etc still need to be overcome, and biofuels can be used in our existing petrol fleet and the transitional hybrid cars

fnaah said :

… so people should continue to burn fossil fuels in internal combustion engines until the grid is 100% renewable, yeah? That’d be a great time to start looking at making better EV’s.

Or maybe we should start on better ev’s now, to encourage less burning of fossil fuels right now *and* push for greater renewable electricity.

Totally agree.

And I think anybody talking about using anything starting with “bio” is on the wrong track – they all still create emissions, don’t get sucked in just because it sounds “natural”..

radonezh – nice pipe dream on the cheap energy – that’s kinda what they thought would happen with nuclear power way back – electricity so cheap that there wouldn’t even be a need to meter it…

I’d really like to see Australia deploy the world largest solar farm out in one of the deserts – we’re one of the most solar rich countries, it’d fantastic if we actually tapped into it.

There is a lot of work going on with solar cells to either make them much cheaper, including a process that essentially prints the panels like an inkjet printer. If we can get them cheap and durable it’d make a lot of sense to replace roof tiles with solar panel tiles like you mentioned.

I saw one plan for a hybrid car that had solar panels on the roof, but the idea for that was to help run the air conditioner/stereo/etc rather than charge the battery. Apparently the power generated wasn’t enough to be bothered trying to charge the battery with, and it makes sense to run the aircon on solar because the solar exposure would be highest at the same time you’d want to use it.

fnaah said :

a replacement for meat that tasted even better

I can handle the flowy robes and mellowness and animal translator, but meat replacement?

Nooooo! Taco Bell my a$$, gimme the rat burger, thanks. No, I will not enhance my calm.

Take it easy, Sly, rats have rights too! Hey, in the future, they’ll be able to vote and stand for election… hey wait, what am I saying – they’re already in office now. Is it the future already? Wow, time does fly, doesn’t it?

a replacement for meat that tasted even better

I can handle the flowy robes and mellowness and animal translator, but meat replacement?

Nooooo! Taco Bell my a$$, gimme the rat burger, thanks. No, I will not enhance my calm.

VYBerlinaV8_the_one_they_all_copy said :

You’re a real smart ar$e. I like it!

Hey, it sure beats the mundane stuff I have to think about all day long.

Taco- I have a grand vision:

Australia should build one very big nuclear reactor somewhere far enough away from all of the population centres and any of the important cultural sites. That nuclear reactor would have only one purpose: to provide the very large amount of energy required to melt silicon to in order to build gazillions of advanced photovoltaic cells at a fraction of the price they currently cost to build and with zero carbon emissions. The PV cells would be transported to both the power station sites, (by an electrified railways drawing their traction power from the reactor) so that they could be assembled into massive solar farms, but also, they would, by law, be required to be installed on the roofs of all buildings, public and private, and wired back into the grid. All the elctric cars would be covered with them and would recharge themselves to some degree every time they were in the sun. The entire nation would become one giant solar farm. The PV cells would be very cheap, and could be built into toughened glass roofing tiles or sheets with better thermal and acoustical insulation properties than existing roofing materials.

The nuclear reactor itself would be designed for eventual decomissioning after a certain critical mass of solar cells had been installed – i.e. enough to generate power to make as many more PV cells to maintain the existing ones, and also to grow the system with the growing population.

(here endeth the serious part of my post, and hereafter begins the fun part)

Energy would become very cheap and the masses could give up working so much, instead filling their time with leisure activities like picking flowers from their hydroponic gardens (watered with cheaply desalinated sea water) and watching the sunset dance over the glistening photovoltaic cells. They would all be walking around their enlightened cities of the future (I like to call them “multi-function polis'”) wearing loose-flowing gowns, being very nice to one-another and referring to each other as “Citizen”. Everything would be very mellow and no one would be bummed out or square. Animals would win their human rights because McDonalds would invent a replacement for meat that tasted even better than the meat replacement they currently use, and advanced computers would interpret their every bark, whinny or moo and translate it instantly into human speech.

Transmission losses aside, they have sophisticated scrubbers in their smoke stacks that remove most of the particulates, sulphur compounds and really, the only thing that comes out is CO2, which you can offset by planting manicured lawns on your sporting ovals. 🙂

You’re a real smart ar$e. I like it!

I just realised that it should be illudium phosdex, not aluminum phozdex. Apologies to all Looney Tunes purists out there.

radonezh is right – it is much easier to control pollution in a single coal powered power plant (which can also be more efficient than an ICE) than it is to control pollution spewed forth from thousands of cars

Decoupling transport from oil dependency by switching to electricity makes it much easier to “upgrade” millions of cars later by switching the backend generators to green energy gradually, perhaps even with more incentive to build more solar/wind/etc due to increased consumption.

Another development that could make this whole thing make more sense would be a smart grid, which could tap into millions of car batteries to solve peak power problems, then charging them back up when demand drops

peterh said :

radonezh said :

in most current car oils, Molybdenum disulfide is used as a protective agent to bond to metal surfaces. this prevents metal on metal damage, if for some reason there is an issue with the oil levels in the vehicle. The compound has a resistance to heat and friction, far greater than the oil it is suspended in. Yopu may have seen ads for an oil product that show it bonding onto a rough surface to make it smooth…

Cool. So it is similar to aluminum phozdex, which, being the shaving-cream atom, provides a smoother, closer shave for today’s Aston Martin-driving international man of mystery.

I like electric cars. They are significantly more efficient than fuel-burning cars, but that’s not the main reason I like them. The main reason I like them is because they allow for much more creativity in terms of design because they are not constrained by axles, differentials, large motors, sumps full of lots of engine oil, water-based cooling systems and they don’t give produce the stink of burnt hydrocarbons in our city streets. The design of the car can take on new, more aesthetically-pleasing, more safety-oriented forms. Passenger cabins can be roomier within a given exterior set of dimensions. The power sources (batteries) can be formed in a number of different shapes, so they could (for example) be formed into the body in a distributed fashion, instead of with a single “petrol tank” style block – allowing for radical rethinking of luggage and storage spaces. Having AC traction motors in the hubs of all 4 wheels allows for some really clever traction control and off-road capabilities and magnetic bearings would almost zero lubrication required (only the steering and suspension would need lube).

Centralised coal-fired power stations are damn fine inventions because they can be made to be much cleaner than millions of fuel-burning cars. Transmission losses aside, they have sophisticated scrubbers in their smoke stacks that remove most of the particulates, sulphur compounds and really, the only thing that comes out is CO2, which you can offset by planting manicured lawns on your sporting ovals. 🙂

radonezh said :

peterh said :

it is a shame that they haven’t been able to synthesize Molybdenum disulfide

Is that similar to Aluminum Phozdex, the shaving-cream atom?

in most current car oils, Molybdenum disulfide is used as a protective agent to bond to metal surfaces. this prevents metal on metal damage, if for some reason there is an issue with the oil levels in the vehicle. The compound has a resistance to heat and friction, far greater than the oil it is suspended in. Yopu may have seen ads for an oil product that show it bonding onto a rough surface to make it smooth…

molybdenum itself has a greasy feel to it, i used to use it as a protective agent for some polishing wheels, but stopped after i learned that it compromises the body’s copper absorption.

… so people should continue to burn fossil fuels in internal combustion engines until the grid is 100% renewable, yeah? That’d be a great time to start looking at making better EV’s.

That’s your conclusion, not the logical conclusion of the argument that was presented, and I suspect you know it.

The sensible approach is to adopt intermin solutions that offer better efficiencies while developing end state solutions that actually solve the problem. Jamming a bunch of electric cars onto the grid immediately does not solve the problem. Have a pilot program for sure, but we need sensible and realistic ways forward, not a poorly thought out solution that gratifies the greenies.

peterh said :

it is a shame that they haven’t been able to synthesize Molybdenum disulfide

Is that similar to Aluminum Phozdex, the shaving-cream atom?

peterh said :

when will we see cars that can run on alcohol and electricity? using plant derived oils?

this would spell the end of fossil fuel reliance…

Plant derived ESSENTIAL oils, you mean

“Yup, just gonna dump some patchoulli and lavender in the tank, dude..”

Fragrant Drag Strip for Canberra, anybody?

caf said :

The thermal efficiency of your car engine is around the same, and there’s also “transmission losses” in the energy required to shift fuel around to get it to you.

Moving cars onto the grid makes it a hell of a lot easier to move to renewable sources over time, and you’re also better off burning coal than oil because you can’t make lubricants out of coal (even electric cars need lubrication!).

it is a shame that they haven’t been able to synthesize Molybdenum disulfide, if there was a synthetic version of this compound, combined with a plant waste oil (thanks ruffnready), it would reduce the risk of metal on metal contact and wear. This would in turn eliminate the need for fossil oils.

Electric cars powered entirely from renewable sources – fine. Otherwise, you’re just making the problem worse.

… so people should continue to burn fossil fuels in internal combustion engines until the grid is 100% renewable, yeah? That’d be a great time to start looking at making better EV’s.

Or maybe we should start on better ev’s now, to encourage less burning of fossil fuels right now *and* push for greater renewable electricity.

caf said :

The thermal efficiency of your car engine is around the same, and there’s also “transmission losses” in the energy required to shift fuel around to get it to you.

Moving cars onto the grid makes it a hell of a lot easier to move to renewable sources over time, and you’re also better off burning coal than oil because you can’t make lubricants out of coal (even electric cars need lubrication!).

If you shift cars onto the grid you will basically have to DOUBLE the capacity of the grid.

I’d rather see a large shift to gas cars (which produce up to 30% less GHGs/km than petrol, depending on how old they are and whether they are factory-made or converted) as a transition technology, and keep the grid renewables for offsetting other electricity uses. When we have significant renewables on the grid you can start shifting to electric cars, until then it makes little sense to me.

peterh said :

when will we see cars that can run on alcohol and electricity? using plant derived oils?

this would spell the end of fossil fuel reliance…

Hmmmm, really? The transport networks of the world take up about 40% of total global primary energy consumption. Where exactly are you going to find the land to grow the “plant-derived oils” for that fleet given that the world is at its sustainable food supply limit and there’s no more arable land?

Crop WASTES (ie. cellulose) –> ethanol is promising, but it isn’t “the solution”, nor is it yet a mature technology, and you have to be careful to leave enough wastes to replenish the soil.

There is no one solution, but the first thing we have to do is conserve and find efficiencies. Without stopping the growth in demand for everything, we don’t have a hope.

The thermal efficiency of your car engine is around the same, and there’s also “transmission losses” in the energy required to shift fuel around to get it to you.

Moving cars onto the grid makes it a hell of a lot easier to move to renewable sources over time, and you’re also better off burning coal than oil because you can’t make lubricants out of coal (even electric cars need lubrication!).

johnboy said :

Hydrogen’s just a cypher for dirty coal.

Exactly. So is the electric car. You’re runnning it off the grid, which is 81% coal-powered. Even worse, the thermal efficincy of that coal-power is about 35%, and about 8% is lost in transmission, so for every J of coal you use you’re actually getting 0.28J in your car.

Electric cars powered entirely from renewable sources – fine. Otherwise, you’re just making the problem worse.

It’s an interesting idea, and one that should be explored further. I think there are a couple of big hurdles, though:
1) If this were to be adopted by even a moderate part of the general population, would the current electrical grid be able to handle it? After all the kerfuffle over a local power station earlier this year, this would be a real concern. Also, what will this do to local electricity prices? Govco won’t reliquish their fuel excise easily.
2) These types of vehicles can work well, but they won’t be anything like a ‘regular’ vehicle to drive, and it will take some time for people to get their heads around this.

My thought is that we should pursue the idea using a pilot program of a few vehicles, and use the experiences of the initial users to shape to program going forward. It would be better to spend some extra time getting the idea really well sorted so when it’s adopted en masse it will be effective and efficient, rather than rushing in and screwing it up. Despite the hurdles above, I reckon this can work, especially for people like myself who drive 60-100km per day, much of it in peak hour, making multiple stops.

Wouldn’t it be nice if carparks had recharging ports in each car space, and you simply swiped a smart card (or credit card) and filled up while you were parked?

when will we see cars that can run on alcohol and electricity? using plant derived oils?

this would spell the end of fossil fuel reliance…

gargamel – you are almost correct – the Tesla Roadster has a 450kg battery with 6831 cells and a curb weight of 1238 kilos, so 36% of the weight is battery. Not something easily swapped out.

Quick charging usually takes the battery to something like 85% full in a few minutes, which would be fine for a quick fill during the day until you can do a full charge at home overnight.

Maybe with the Greens holding so much power now in the ACT they can push for this to happen in Canberra

The Federales could boost their green credentials by rolling this out to the ComCar fleet. All those luxury sedans sitting outside the Reps and Senate entrances on sitting days could be doing so with zero emissions.

The longest trips they do are PH – Airport. Most of the trips would be to the surrounding inner south suburbs. I know that Comcars can be privately hired and go for longer distances, so an internal dinosaur converter would be necessary. Plug in hybrid would be the way to go.

These switch stations will be pretty much useless for the likes of the current batch of electric cars (like the Tesla roadster or even the Californian urban type light weight vehicles).

The switch station may be a good (commercial) idea, but the article makes no mention of any electric car manufacturer that build or intend to build a car capable of having these units dropped in. Given the size of the energy cells (from memory almost half the weight of the Tesla is in the battery) in these cars I’d be interested to see how simple the switch process is intended to be.

Perhaps these switch stations will be set up moreover for a future Californian urban type electric car (ie the type that have a 50 mile range rather than the Tesla et al range of 200+ miles). If this is the market they’re looking at then we’re talking about cars that aren’t suited to the highway (or parkway) as they’re designed to be low speed vehicles (ie max 50/60kph). I’d hazard a guess it’d be easier to switch cells in these things as their batteries don’t need to provide for such a load for as great a range.

As far as recharge times – my reading about this stuff has told me that the modern vehicles are capable of quick charging. Quick charging though won’t replenish the energy bank entirely of course but if you only need to extend your range a little to make it to your next destination (be it to another station or home) then it may not be a big deal.

Check this site out for some cool makeovers: http://www.coolgreencar.net/

fnaah said :

any owner of a battery powered device knows that their capacity dies off over time

You haven’t been keeping up with battery tech, have you?

Unless you are talking supercapacitors, every chemical battery will loose charge over charge/discharge cycles, though with good management this can be a long time depending on the battery tech – 1st gen Piruses I believe are still going fine on their original battery

I assumed that the “charging stations” would be just be high voltage/amperage outlets that could deliver enough juice to charge a car in minutes rather than hours, rather than a swap service

The economic benefits are huge… Think if this starts with a small budget elcetric car and a small funky fun electric sports car huge segments of the market would be covered. Then with the infastructure in place in 5 years, plus petrol assisted larger cars becoming viable enabling people to drive in the city on power and drive long distances on petrol the most of the market would be covered. As one of the first countries doing this the cars could be produced locally. This is a win win win. We just need to make sure canberra gets in on the act.

Canberra is almost an outer suburb of sydney these days i don’t think it would be hard for our new rather green government to convince backers to extend the deal out this way. Especially if they put some capital behind it. We are also a good fit for such a plan as has been said.

IMHO this is perfect for that building australia fund Rudd is talking up. It would do alot to remove our economies dependence on forigen oil. Make us much greener. Hell if holden and ford got behind this with each locally building a small electric budget car plus something like a telsa this could have so many benefits. More jobs etc etc. The government could buy electric cars as they never need them for long trips.

For all those who never drive outta town such cars would be perfect.

I didn’t mean to imply that recharging would be be quick from a home outlet (indeed at the rate of about 3 kW it would take several hours), rather that recharging frequently/quickly is not necessary as the cars that will be available in the near term will be equipped with a backup fossil fuel generator for the longer trips and for day-to-day driving the overnight recharge should suffice. Thus there may not be a large market for the recharging network proposed, and certainly it does not mean that it is unreasonable to purchase an electric vehicle without one of these stations present.

Do you think they even know we’re here? The suits in Sydney and Melbourne probably think that extending it to Adelaide and Perth means they’re covering ‘regional Australia’!

any owner of a battery powered device knows that their capacity dies off over time

You haven’t been keeping up with battery tech, have you?

The swap option would ensure that the battery that your car had was regularly renewed.

I like the direction this is going.

That would be sweet as! The swap option would ensure that the battery that your car had was regularly renewed – unlike the Prius batteries that (I understand) your car has for life. That’s a big negative for hybrid vehicles – any owner of a battery powered device knows that their capacity dies off over time.

*phft* ‘electric’ cars.

Where’s my FLYING car eh?

‘refueling’ an electric car takes a a few hours…the electric recharging station is connected to coal fired power stations

There’ll be 150 ‘swap’ stations where they just open your car and change the batteries in the same way you ‘swap and go’ for gas for the barbie. AGL will power the whole system with renewable energy, so no dirty coal either. Did you even read the article?

GregW: The Macbankers may be many things, but easily-fleeced isn’t one of them.

Mathman: That’s probably why they’re talking about battery-swap stations on the freeways as part of the plan, then?

Chevy Volt? Bah.

Tesla Roadster or Wrightspeed X1. Gimme!

GregW said :

however this ‘recharging network’ is redundant as there are already recharging stations for electric cars all over the territory, one in every garage in fact.

Unfortunately this is the biggest limiting factor for electric cars. The typical petrol pump can refuel your car in about five minutes because it is able to pump energy at the rate of 5 megawatts – the power point in your garage will only provide 2.4 kilowatts. Even considering the difference in efficiency between petrol engines and electric motors (20% vs 80%) ‘refueling’ an electric car takes a a few hours – much longer than a quick toilet stop on the way to Sydney. In any case, the electric recharging station is connected to coal fired power stations so it doesn’t really solve any problems.

Guess we’ll have to make do with our Smart cars then.

Hydrogen’s just a cypher for dirty coal.

Well that sucks. Looks like we’ll be stuck with “new” 18th century tech here, instead.

I want an electric car, but its almost useless if nobody else does too. Meanwhile I get punished for my “want” to burn fossil fuel, it’s totally bogus. Where’s the local electric/hydrogen car dealership.. give me some options already!!

Canberra does seem ideal given our high new car ownership and support for environmental issues, however this ‘recharging network’ is redundant as there are already recharging stations for electric cars all over the territory, one in every garage in fact. In addition it seems unlikely that pure electric vehicles will be rolled out in the near term as battery technology is still too expensive, instead we will see these ~100km range battery packs with onboard ‘range extender’ fossil fueled turbines.

Better Place are just making a quick buck out of investors looking to invest in the next big green technology.