Canberra’s cats facing containment

Dogs are required to be confined to owners property, why on earth should it be different for cats?

Maya123 said :

Antagonist said :

Maya123 said :

“Cats kill 75 million animals in Australia every night.”
I don’t have the statistics to argue with this. But this is likely mainly feral cats, so a straw-man argument when talking about desexed domestic cats, living in neighbourhoods with little wildlife habitat left.

Little wildlife habitat left in Canberra? The ACT is more than 50% flora and fauna reserves. You know – the bush capital. Talk about living with your head in the sand!

I don’t live near a nature reserve. I often walk in them; sometimes several times a week, so no I don’t have my head in the sand; I am well aware of them, likely more so than many people who don’t visit them nearly as much as I do, but I need to cycle or drive to one. Not all of Canberra’s suburban blocks back onto Nature Reserves.

Maya, I usually find your comments insightful but not on this occasion. If you live in Narrabundah you are very close to the Red Hill Nature Park. You’d also be pretty close to the Mill Creek Oval and surrounding open land, and Rocky Knob Park, not to mention at least three ovals which are home to all sorts of native insects and lizards. There are ducks and even kangaroos on the golf course. Last week a kangaroo was hit by a car on Captain Cook Crescent near Jerrabomberra Oval.And let’s not forget the peacocks – not natives, I know, but still pretty impressive.
I watch my neighbour’s roaming cat hunt magpies almost every day. Luckily he’s not very good at it – yet – but he does kill a lot of butterflies, moths and lizards. Is that okay because he’s only on the golf course, not in a nature park?
And no, I don’t want to see him put down, but one day he’s going to get clobbered by a golfer for playing with the balls. Safer for everyone if he was an indoors cat.

Ghettosmurf87 said :

Maya, there are not many (if any) commenters on this thread that are advocating positively for “all cats to be dead and gone” as you put it.

What they are advocating for is that cat owners, like the owners of other pets, should be required to keep their pets within the confines of their own property and that they should take adequate measures to ensure that their cats are not harming the local wildlife.

Now, as cats happen to be adept at climbing, simply leaving your cat in your backyard and telling it to “stay” is not likely to work is it? If it wishes to climb trees and attack or even just scare and cause consternation for the nesting birds, or if it wishes to jump the fence and go roaming about the neighbourhood or even further then that’s exactly what the cat will do.

Therefore, the solutions are simple. You either keep your cat confined to indoors unless leashed/supervised. Or you build an outdoor cat run which it cannot venture outside of. Whether or not cat runs are expensive or not is beside the point. It should become one of the expected costs of owning a cat safely and responsibly.

The world is not the playground of a domestic cat, just as it is not the playground of someones pet dog, bird, snake, rabbit, etc. All pet owners need to take responsibility for their pets by keeping within their property when unsupervised and in control when supervised, as well as taking all practical measures to ensure that those pets do not negatively affect local wildlife, other people or property not of the owners belonging.

If you find that unreasonable, then I would argue that you are being unreasonable Maya

It was suggested here by someone that they should have the right to

Ghettosmurf87 said :

Maya, there are not many (if any) commenters on this thread that are advocating positively for “all cats to be dead and gone” as you put it.

What they are advocating for is that cat owners, like the owners of other pets, should be required to keep their pets within the confines of their own property and that they should take adequate measures to ensure that their cats are not harming the local wildlife.

Now, as cats happen to be adept at climbing, simply leaving your cat in your backyard and telling it to “stay” is not likely to work is it? If it wishes to climb trees and attack or even just scare and cause consternation for the nesting birds, or if it wishes to jump the fence and go roaming about the neighbourhood or even further then that’s exactly what the cat will do.

Therefore, the solutions are simple. You either keep your cat confined to indoors unless leashed/supervised. Or you build an outdoor cat run which it cannot venture outside of. Whether or not cat runs are expensive or not is beside the point. It should become one of the expected costs of owning a cat safely and responsibly.

The world is not the playground of a domestic cat, just as it is not the playground of someones pet dog, bird, snake, rabbit, etc. All pet owners need to take responsibility for their pets by keeping within their property when unsupervised and in control when supervised, as well as taking all practical measures to ensure that those pets do not negatively affect local wildlife, other people or property not of the owners belonging.

If you find that unreasonable, then I would argue that you are being unreasonable Maya

I quote: “Trap the ones that are not controlled and remove them from society.
If there were feral cats ready to move in that are much hungrier, then they should be easier to bait or trap. Win Win.”
Sounds like killing cats to me. This is the sort of comment I was arguing against. I find it scary that people like that live among us.

Removing desexed domestic cats, I don’t believe will make much, if any, difference to wildlife in suburbia. We are a far bigger problem than cats and no-one is suggesting removing us. What would be a bigger help to wildlife is restoring their habitat, but that’s not likely to happen. People like their huge McMansions too much, and concrete is so much ‘easier’ to live with. But then should we be filling our gardens with native plants? Perhaps it might be better to fill our gardens with food plants and reduce the need for land outside the cities to feed us. Then more land outside the cities would be available for wildlife. Gardens with lots of food plants can become unfriendly places for wildlife, which often have to be kept out, or the home owner loses the food. Basically we humans make life for wildlife difficult.

Maya, there are not many (if any) commenters on this thread that are advocating positively for “all cats to be dead and gone” as you put it.

What they are advocating for is that cat owners, like the owners of other pets, should be required to keep their pets within the confines of their own property and that they should take adequate measures to ensure that their cats are not harming the local wildlife.

Now, as cats happen to be adept at climbing, simply leaving your cat in your backyard and telling it to “stay” is not likely to work is it? If it wishes to climb trees and attack or even just scare and cause consternation for the nesting birds, or if it wishes to jump the fence and go roaming about the neighbourhood or even further then that’s exactly what the cat will do.

Therefore, the solutions are simple. You either keep your cat confined to indoors unless leashed/supervised. Or you build an outdoor cat run which it cannot venture outside of. Whether or not cat runs are expensive or not is beside the point. It should become one of the expected costs of owning a cat safely and responsibly.

The world is not the playground of a domestic cat, just as it is not the playground of someones pet dog, bird, snake, rabbit, etc. All pet owners need to take responsibility for their pets by keeping within their property when unsupervised and in control when supervised, as well as taking all practical measures to ensure that those pets do not negatively affect local wildlife, other people or property not of the owners belonging.

If you find that unreasonable, then I would argue that you are being unreasonable Maya

Wow, this is getting pretty serious… I think. 😉

Hooray!

Stocking up on ammo as we speak.

Antagonist said :

Maya123 said :

… but extremists are never satisfied, and so I realise that nothing I can write will change your views.

We have very different views on who the extremists in this argument are. It seems that you know better than the scientists and urban planners from all over the world. Better still, you also seem to know better than the RSPCA, who also recommend that cats be confined: http://kb.rspca.org.au/Is-it-okay-to-keep-my-cat-contained-within-my-property-boundary-all-of-the-time_70.html

So how about you answer the question I asked at post #64: Why do you have such a problem with being responsible by keeping them [cats] indoors to minimise impacts on wildlife?

Because there is virtually no wildlife left in many suburban places, because urban development saw to that. Not cats; urban development.
The articles quoted here said many (most?) cats don’t hunt.

My idea of extreme is those that want all cats dead and gone. No matter the heartache that would cause. Not extreme in your opinion! Then we do have a different idea of extreme.

Maya123 said :

… but extremists are never satisfied, and so I realise that nothing I can write will change your views.

We have very different views on who the extremists in this argument are. It seems that you know better than the scientists and urban planners from all over the world. Better still, you also seem to know better than the RSPCA, who also recommend that cats be confined: http://kb.rspca.org.au/Is-it-okay-to-keep-my-cat-contained-within-my-property-boundary-all-of-the-time_70.html

So how about you answer the question I asked at post #64: Why do you have such a problem with being responsible by keeping them [cats] indoors to minimise impacts on wildlife?

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

He chased the other cats out of my yard making it safer for birds.
Look at your own words that you are arguing about….

What, and you would have punished my cat for doing that! Okay, I will reword that.
“He chased the other cats out of my yard making it possibly safer for birds.” “Possibly” because I don’t know if the other cats were hunters. I would say satisfied?, but extremists are never satisfied, and so I realise that nothing I can write will change your views.

Maya123 said :

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

He chased the other cats out of my yard making it safer for birds.
Look at your own words that you are arguing about….

switch said :

The dog catchers in this town are to become cat catchers now? I can just see that happening.

The Number One destroyer of native wildlife in Australia is habitat destruction, by us, by coming here in the first place. Maybe those who thought this unworkable proposition up should look at removing themselves from the environment.

that’s like arguing about oranges when we are talking about apples.
cats may not hold the number one ranking, but they surely are number two.

roznoz said :

this is what happens when the greens get to much say…who do they want to lock up next…recreational hunters…

not if their hunting cats..

Maya123 said :

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

jcitizen said :

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

Although they are devastating to the wildlife, what about the roaming cats that always seem to use my yard to fight in late at night and use the kids sandpit as their bloody toilet box.

And where do you think “FERRAL CATS” come from?????

These days, mostly from other feral cats. Get rid of all domestic cats and it won’t make any difference to the feral population, except maybe some feral cats might move in to replace the space vacated by domestic cats, and they will be a lot hungrier and destructive. And unlike domestic cats, which research has shown not all hunt; ALL the feral cats will.

I have known several cat owners over the years that have had there cat disappear from their house for periods of time only to return home a lot thinner after giving birth to a litter of kittens, either in a drain somewhere, under a house,neighbours garage or the back of a shopping centre, somewhere out of sight.
What happens to the next generation if they don’t end up at the pound being put down ? Are you saying that they are domesticated and not feral? Are you also saying that not all of these will hunt or try to” play” with the local bird life?
Locking them up and controlling them would only be cruel if the cat wasn’t domesticated enough, content and happy being with their owners. Why keep them if they are not content being in the company of their owners in the first place? What do you think their motivation is to want to roam around? A roaming cat is a cat that’s up to no good, killing, fighting, breeding and sh#!ting. I don’t think they are playing cards.
Cat owners should control their cats or simply not have them, just like dog owners.
Lock em up. You have to start somewhere.
Trap the ones that are not controlled and remove them from society.
If there were feral cats ready to move in that are much hungrier, then they should be easier to bait or trap. Win Win.
There is no place in this country for cats and it is one of the worst mistakes ever made in bringing them hear in the first place. Just ask the wildlife that was hear long before the cat. Oh you cant because a lot of them are extinct or dead anyway.
What did you do about your cats that were ecological disasters? Did you take responsibility for them in any way?
You yourself have said it, your “top” cat would chase away ALL THE OTHER CATS so as to make it safer in your yard for the birdlife. He was a fighter”. Can’t you see what you are saying?
I would personally take great pleasure in being able to trap wondering cats, that were not being kept under control, by their irresponsible owners. I could then do a study on how long it takes the cat owners to get the message that their cat is a roaming cat, like all healthy cats, and I would dispose of them for free.
Problem solved…………

Rats and mice are not native. That’s what was the main catch of cats that did hunt. Not all cats have. I am happy for cats to get rats and mice, or would you prefer them in your food cupboard eating the food and cr$pping? I don’t have a cat, but all the cats I know are desexed, so they can’t have kittens. I imagine most pet cats are. Of course there can always be found examples of really irresponsible owners of any pet, such as my tenants who let their dog die in the back yard and left it there to rot. Neighbours called in the RSPCA. They didn’t have a cat, but if they did they would be the sort of person who would have an undesexed cat. Nothing will change with those people, so don’t hold it against all cat owners for people like this, just as it should not be held against all dog owners because there are people like my tenants. Most people are more responsible than this.
Yes, my cat chased the other cats away (out of the garden). Not very sociable of him, but so?
Trapping someone’s pet is cruel and selfish. Because YOU don’t like cats, others must suffer heartache, often lasting a long time. They are very loved members of households.

You still don’t get the point.
Yes your cat was a fighter, as you have said, not very social but so?

Its not very social as I and several others have stated, when the cats that are roaming around fight late at night making an awful noise. That’s what.
I would not be able to trap someones cat if they were not roaming around now would I?
What about the heartache these uncontrolled cats do to peoples PET BIRDS. Have you ever had a child wake up and go out to say good morning to their budgie, only to see a bunch of feathers and a dead bird on the bottom of the cage? Well I have . That’s real heartache.
Don’t talk to me about cruel and selfish.
There is nothing more cruel than a cat that kills because most of the time it is just for fun and not because they are hungry.
Selfish is what you are thinking that everyone else has to tolerate your out of date opinion on cats and the ignorant stance that you continue to take. You think everyone else has to tolerate the bloody cats and their wicked ways because you want to keep one, oh but not only keep one, you expect them to fight ,kill, and cr$p in everyone elses yard.
I don’t think it is too much to ask, for you and the like minded, to stop your killers from sh#tting in a childs sand box, do you. Do you think if a child wants to play in the sand box that they should have to clean it everytime they do? Cant you see that children should not be forced by, ignorant and arrogant cat owners, to have to play with turds?
You have not answered the question about what responsibility YOU took for the destructive and evil behaviour of the cats that you owned that you your self have called ecological disasters.Did you call them that because YOU cant come to terms with reality and call them what they are, KILLERS.
You are pretty quick to judge everybody else whos opinion is not the same as yours. Your opinion is outdated and selfish, a reflection of YOU.
Why are YOU so special that you don’t have to give a damn about anyone elses right not to have to put up with some elses pet trespassing and all that goes with it.
If people cant control their cat to stay in their own property then they should not have them at all.
Lock them up or you might not see them again…….

Good grief. Do you ever hate cats! I doubt you could look at this fairly if your tried. Your hatred is so great and overwhelming.
Let’s analyse what you say.
“A roaming cat is a cat that’s up to no good, killing, fighting, breeding and sh#!ting.”
As the research has shown many (most?) domestic cats don’t hunt (kill). Yes, those that do can cause problems and there could be an argument that these particular cats should be locked up. A blanket ban on cats punishes all cats for the minority. I am talking about domestic cats here; not feral, which is a real problem.
Fighting varies from cat to cat, and is greatly reduced by desexing. It’s a long time since I have heard a cat fight. Possums are many times more noisy.
Breeding! Come on, desexed cats can’t breed. Stop this straw man argument.
Sh$tting! Most cats bury their toilet waste, so it’s not a problem. If you are worried about children’s sand pits, take responsibility and cover it when not in use. This will also stop dropping from possums, flying foxes (I would worry more about caliciviris from bat poo), birds, etc. Regarding this, you are sounding like a good friend of mine. She would rave on about cats using her garden as a toilet. However this was one of the symptoms of her OCD. She had other cleaning issues and would count footsteps too. She went to rather ridiculous lengths to try to keep cats out. But she would never have harmed a cat, as she was too nice and wasn’t a sociopath and knew how much cats often meant to their owners.
I have had a large vegetable garden for years and of course visiting cats used it. But it was never a problem. They dug holes and buried it and it became fertiliser. My friend’s mind though didn’t allow her to think of it this way.

[[“What about the heartache these uncontrolled cats do to peoples PET BIRDS. Have you ever had a child wake up and go out to say good morning to their budgie, only to see a bunch of feathers and a dead bird on the bottom of the cage? Well I have . That’s real heartache.”]]

What a silly statement; another straw man argument, because what was a budgie doing where a cat could get to it? This is the budgie owner’s fault, but not having the strength of character to own up to this and instead looking for something else to blame, when it’s their fault. Also birds should not be caged and kept as (caged) pets. What a cruel thing to teach children.

[[“You have not answered the question about what responsibility YOU took for the destructive and evil behaviour of the cats that you owned that you your self have called ecological disasters.Did you call them that because YOU cant come to terms with reality and call them what they are, KILLERS.”]]

I was about ten years old at the time, so no, I didn’t do anything about the particular cat I am thinking of. None of the cats I have had as an adult have been as bad as that cat. They varied from showing no interest in hunting to only a rare kill. As an adult, I locked cats in at night. That cat I had as a child came from a farm where the cats had to fend for themselves, and never lost the hunting habit. Most domestic cats have never had to fend for themselves in that way.

[[“You are pretty quick to judge everybody else whos opinion is not the same as yours. Your opinion is outdated and selfish, a reflection of YOU.
Why are YOU so special that you don’t have to give a damn about anyone elses right not to have to put up with some elses pet trespassing and all that goes with it.
If people cant control their cat to stay in their own property then they should not have them at all.
Lock them up or you might not see them again…….”]]

Really, and you aren’t!!! I sound reasonable next to your rant. I have said cats should be desexed, household numbers limited and I locked them up at night. But you want to see them all dead. Not selfish! No consideration of the heartache this would cause owners!? I am pained to think that you live near other people and the sorrow you might cause them. It’s scary, that there are people out there who don’t care what heartache they might cause. Cats one day. What next? Just to satisfy your self centred universe.

Suburbs have been the main enemy of wildlife and that’s us humans. Houses are getting bigger, people concrete a lot more. There are not many places left for wildlife to thrive. Where I live there is no nature reserve close by. There is only limited damage a cat could do.
I hope you don’t live near me. Not because you could kill my cat, as I don’t have one, and haven’t for years. But because there are other people who do. I dread that someone could live in a neighbourhood and because they have opinions bordering on religious extremism take matters into their own hands. Poor elderly owners, poor children, poor other owners. In tears, but what would you care!

Antagonist said :

Maya123 said :

Rats and mice are not native. That’s what was the main catch of cats that did hunt.

There are ~60 species of native rats and mice in Australia. The main catch of cats that hunt is, in fact, reptiles – not birds or mammals. But don’t let your continual emotional diatribe get in the way of the facts.

Maya123 said :

Trapping someone’s pet is cruel and selfish. Because YOU don’t like cats, others must suffer heartache, often lasting a long time. They are very loved members of households.

If they are so much loved, then why do you have such a problem with being responsible by keeping them indoors to minimise impacts on wildlife? Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, you keep coming out with BS after BS about why they should be allowed to roam (and kill).

Cats kill 75 million animals in Australia every night. We have to start doing something about it, and it starts with responsible cat owners doing their bit by keeping *ALL* cats indoors. This is not about dogs versus cats. It is about responsible cat ownership.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/greg-hunt-calls-for-eradication-of-feral-cats-that-kill-75m-animals-a-night/story-fn59niix-1226939644027

+100

Maya123 said :

Antagonist said :

Maya123 said :

Rats and mice are not native. That’s what was the main catch of cats that did hunt.

There are ~60 species of native rats and mice in Australia. The main catch of cats that hunt is, in fact, reptiles – not birds or mammals. But don’t let your continual emotional diatribe get in the way of the facts.

Maya123 said :

Trapping someone’s pet is cruel and selfish. Because YOU don’t like cats, others must suffer heartache, often lasting a long time. They are very loved members of households.

If they are so much loved, then why do you have such a problem with being responsible by keeping them indoors to minimise impacts on wildlife? Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, you keep coming out with BS after BS about why they should be allowed to roam (and kill).

Cats kill 75 million animals in Australia every night. We have to start doing something about it, and it starts with responsible cat owners doing their bit by keeping *ALL* cats indoors. This is not about dogs versus cats. It is about responsible cat ownership.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/greg-hunt-calls-for-eradication-of-feral-cats-that-kill-75m-animals-a-night/story-fn59niix-1226939644027

“Cats kill 75 million animals in Australia every night.”
I don’t have the statistics to argue with this. But this is likely mainly feral cats, so a straw-man argument when talking about desexed domestic cats, living in neighbourhoods with little wildlife habitat left.

The article states that the number is based on an estimate of there being 15 million feral cats in Australia, each one killing 5 animals every night. Domestics don’t even rate a mention.

Antagonist said :

Maya123 said :

“Cats kill 75 million animals in Australia every night.”
I don’t have the statistics to argue with this. But this is likely mainly feral cats, so a straw-man argument when talking about desexed domestic cats, living in neighbourhoods with little wildlife habitat left.

Little wildlife habitat left in Canberra? The ACT is more than 50% flora and fauna reserves. You know – the bush capital. Talk about living with your head in the sand!

I don’t live near a nature reserve. I often walk in them; sometimes several times a week, so no I don’t have my head in the sand; I am well aware of them, likely more so than many people who don’t visit them nearly as much as I do, but I need to cycle or drive to one. Not all of Canberra’s suburban blocks back onto Nature Reserves.

Maya123 said :

“Cats kill 75 million animals in Australia every night.”
I don’t have the statistics to argue with this. But this is likely mainly feral cats, so a straw-man argument when talking about desexed domestic cats, living in neighbourhoods with little wildlife habitat left.

Little wildlife habitat left in Canberra? The ACT is more than 50% flora and fauna reserves. You know – the bush capital. Talk about living with your head in the sand!

Antagonist said :

Maya123 said :

Rats and mice are not native. That’s what was the main catch of cats that did hunt.

There are ~60 species of native rats and mice in Australia. The main catch of cats that hunt is, in fact, reptiles – not birds or mammals. But don’t let your continual emotional diatribe get in the way of the facts.

Maya123 said :

Trapping someone’s pet is cruel and selfish. Because YOU don’t like cats, others must suffer heartache, often lasting a long time. They are very loved members of households.

If they are so much loved, then why do you have such a problem with being responsible by keeping them indoors to minimise impacts on wildlife? Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, you keep coming out with BS after BS about why they should be allowed to roam (and kill).

Cats kill 75 million animals in Australia every night. We have to start doing something about it, and it starts with responsible cat owners doing their bit by keeping *ALL* cats indoors. This is not about dogs versus cats. It is about responsible cat ownership.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/greg-hunt-calls-for-eradication-of-feral-cats-that-kill-75m-animals-a-night/story-fn59niix-1226939644027

“Cats kill 75 million animals in Australia every night.”
I don’t have the statistics to argue with this. But this is likely mainly feral cats, so a straw-man argument when talking about desexed domestic cats, living in neighbourhoods with little wildlife habitat left.

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

jcitizen said :

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

Although they are devastating to the wildlife, what about the roaming cats that always seem to use my yard to fight in late at night and use the kids sandpit as their bloody toilet box.

And where do you think “FERRAL CATS” come from?????

These days, mostly from other feral cats. Get rid of all domestic cats and it won’t make any difference to the feral population, except maybe some feral cats might move in to replace the space vacated by domestic cats, and they will be a lot hungrier and destructive. And unlike domestic cats, which research has shown not all hunt; ALL the feral cats will.

I have known several cat owners over the years that have had there cat disappear from their house for periods of time only to return home a lot thinner after giving birth to a litter of kittens, either in a drain somewhere, under a house,neighbours garage or the back of a shopping centre, somewhere out of sight.
What happens to the next generation if they don’t end up at the pound being put down ? Are you saying that they are domesticated and not feral? Are you also saying that not all of these will hunt or try to” play” with the local bird life?
Locking them up and controlling them would only be cruel if the cat wasn’t domesticated enough, content and happy being with their owners. Why keep them if they are not content being in the company of their owners in the first place? What do you think their motivation is to want to roam around? A roaming cat is a cat that’s up to no good, killing, fighting, breeding and sh#!ting. I don’t think they are playing cards.
Cat owners should control their cats or simply not have them, just like dog owners.
Lock em up. You have to start somewhere.
Trap the ones that are not controlled and remove them from society.
If there were feral cats ready to move in that are much hungrier, then they should be easier to bait or trap. Win Win.
There is no place in this country for cats and it is one of the worst mistakes ever made in bringing them hear in the first place. Just ask the wildlife that was hear long before the cat. Oh you cant because a lot of them are extinct or dead anyway.
What did you do about your cats that were ecological disasters? Did you take responsibility for them in any way?
You yourself have said it, your “top” cat would chase away ALL THE OTHER CATS so as to make it safer in your yard for the birdlife. He was a fighter”. Can’t you see what you are saying?
I would personally take great pleasure in being able to trap wondering cats, that were not being kept under control, by their irresponsible owners. I could then do a study on how long it takes the cat owners to get the message that their cat is a roaming cat, like all healthy cats, and I would dispose of them for free.
Problem solved…………

Rats and mice are not native. That’s what was the main catch of cats that did hunt. Not all cats have. I am happy for cats to get rats and mice, or would you prefer them in your food cupboard eating the food and cr$pping? I don’t have a cat, but all the cats I know are desexed, so they can’t have kittens. I imagine most pet cats are. Of course there can always be found examples of really irresponsible owners of any pet, such as my tenants who let their dog die in the back yard and left it there to rot. Neighbours called in the RSPCA. They didn’t have a cat, but if they did they would be the sort of person who would have an undesexed cat. Nothing will change with those people, so don’t hold it against all cat owners for people like this, just as it should not be held against all dog owners because there are people like my tenants. Most people are more responsible than this.
Yes, my cat chased the other cats away (out of the garden). Not very sociable of him, but so?
Trapping someone’s pet is cruel and selfish. Because YOU don’t like cats, others must suffer heartache, often lasting a long time. They are very loved members of households.

You still don’t get the point.
Yes your cat was a fighter, as you have said, not very social but so?

Its not very social as I and several others have stated, when the cats that are roaming around fight late at night making an awful noise. That’s what.
I would not be able to trap someones cat if they were not roaming around now would I?
What about the heartache these uncontrolled cats do to peoples PET BIRDS. Have you ever had a child wake up and go out to say good morning to their budgie, only to see a bunch of feathers and a dead bird on the bottom of the cage? Well I have . That’s real heartache.
Don’t talk to me about cruel and selfish.
There is nothing more cruel than a cat that kills because most of the time it is just for fun and not because they are hungry.
Selfish is what you are thinking that everyone else has to tolerate your out of date opinion on cats and the ignorant stance that you continue to take. You think everyone else has to tolerate the bloody cats and their wicked ways because you want to keep one, oh but not only keep one, you expect them to fight ,kill, and cr$p in everyone elses yard.
I don’t think it is too much to ask, for you and the like minded, to stop your killers from sh#tting in a childs sand box, do you. Do you think if a child wants to play in the sand box that they should have to clean it everytime they do? Cant you see that children should not be forced by, ignorant and arrogant cat owners, to have to play with turds?
You have not answered the question about what responsibility YOU took for the destructive and evil behaviour of the cats that you owned that you your self have called ecological disasters.Did you call them that because YOU cant come to terms with reality and call them what they are, KILLERS.
You are pretty quick to judge everybody else whos opinion is not the same as yours. Your opinion is outdated and selfish, a reflection of YOU.
Why are YOU so special that you don’t have to give a damn about anyone elses right not to have to put up with some elses pet trespassing and all that goes with it.
If people cant control their cat to stay in their own property then they should not have them at all.
Lock them up or you might not see them again…….

Good grief. Do you ever hate cats! I doubt you could look at this fairly if your tried. Your hatred is so great and overwhelming.
Let’s analyse what you say.
“A roaming cat is a cat that’s up to no good, killing, fighting, breeding and sh#!ting.”
As the research has shown many (most?) domestic cats don’t hunt (kill). Yes, those that do can cause problems and there could be an argument that these particular cats should be locked up. A blanket ban on cats punishes all cats for the minority. I am talking about domestic cats here; not feral, which is a real problem.
Fighting varies from cat to cat, and is greatly reduced by desexing. It’s a long time since I have heard a cat fight. Possums are many times more noisy.
Breeding! Come on, desexed cats can’t breed. Stop this straw man argument.
Shitting! Most cats bury their toilet waste, so it’s not a problem. If you are worried about children’s sand pits, take responsibility and cover it when not in use. This will also stop dropping from possums, flying foxes (I would worry more about caliciviris from bat poo), birds, etc. Regarding this, you are sounding like a good friend of mine. She would rave on about cats using her garden as a toilet. However this was one of the symptoms of her OCD. She had other cleaning issues and would count footsteps too. She went to rather ridiculous lengths to try to keep cats out. But she would never have harmed a cat, as she was too nice and wasn’t a sociopath and knew how much cats often meant to their owners.
I have had a large vegetable garden for years and of course visiting cats used it. But it was never a problem. They dug holes and buried it and it became fertiliser. My friend’s mind though didn’t allow her to think of it this way.

[[“What about the heartache these uncontrolled cats do to peoples PET BIRDS. Have you ever had a child wake up and go out to say good morning to their budgie, only to see a bunch of feathers and a dead bird on the bottom of the cage? Well I have . That’s real heartache.”]]

What a silly statement; another straw man argument, because what was a budgie doing where a cat could get to it? This is the budgie owner’s fault, but not having the strength of character to own up to this and instead looking for something else to blame, when it’s their fault. Also birds should not be caged and kept as (caged) pets. What a cruel thing to teach children.

[[“You have not answered the question about what responsibility YOU took for the destructive and evil behaviour of the cats that you owned that you your self have called ecological disasters.Did you call them that because YOU cant come to terms with reality and call them what they are, KILLERS.”]]

I was about ten years old at the time, so no, I didn’t do anything about the particular cat I am thinking of. None of the cats I have had as an adult have been as bad as that cat. They varied from showing no interest in hunting to only a rare kill. As an adult, I locked cats in at night. That cat I had as a child came from a farm where the cats had to fend for themselves, and never lost the hunting habit. Most domestic cats have never had to fend for themselves in that way.

[[“You are pretty quick to judge everybody else whos opinion is not the same as yours. Your opinion is outdated and selfish, a reflection of YOU.
Why are YOU so special that you don’t have to give a damn about anyone elses right not to have to put up with some elses pet trespassing and all that goes with it.
If people cant control their cat to stay in their own property then they should not have them at all.
Lock them up or you might not see them again…….”]]

Really, and you aren’t!!! I sound reasonable next to your rant. I have said cats should be desexed, household numbers limited and I locked them up at night. But you want to see them all dead. Not selfish! No consideration of the heartache this would cause owners!? I am pained to think that you live near other people and the sorrow you might cause them. It’s scary, that there are people out there who don’t care what heartache they might cause. Cats one day. What next? Just to satisfy your self centred universe.

Suburbs have been the main enemy of wildlife and that’s us humans. Houses are getting bigger, people concrete a lot more. There are not many places left for wildlife to thrive. Where I live there is no nature reserve close by. There is only limited damage a cat could do.
I hope you don’t live near me. Not because you could kill my cat, as I don’t have one, and haven’t for years. But because there are other people who do. I dread that someone could live in a neighbourhood and because they have opinions bordering on religious extremism take matters into their own hands. Poor elderly owners, poor children, poor other owners. In tears, but what would you care!

Maya123 said :

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

jcitizen said :

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

Although they are devastating to the wildlife, what about the roaming cats that always seem to use my yard to fight in late at night and use the kids sandpit as their bloody toilet box.

And where do you think “FERRAL CATS” come from?????

These days, mostly from other feral cats. Get rid of all domestic cats and it won’t make any difference to the feral population, except maybe some feral cats might move in to replace the space vacated by domestic cats, and they will be a lot hungrier and destructive. And unlike domestic cats, which research has shown not all hunt; ALL the feral cats will.

I have known several cat owners over the years that have had there cat disappear from their house for periods of time only to return home a lot thinner after giving birth to a litter of kittens, either in a drain somewhere, under a house,neighbours garage or the back of a shopping centre, somewhere out of sight.
What happens to the next generation if they don’t end up at the pound being put down ? Are you saying that they are domesticated and not feral? Are you also saying that not all of these will hunt or try to” play” with the local bird life?
Locking them up and controlling them would only be cruel if the cat wasn’t domesticated enough, content and happy being with their owners. Why keep them if they are not content being in the company of their owners in the first place? What do you think their motivation is to want to roam around? A roaming cat is a cat that’s up to no good, killing, fighting, breeding and sh#!ting. I don’t think they are playing cards.
Cat owners should control their cats or simply not have them, just like dog owners.
Lock em up. You have to start somewhere.
Trap the ones that are not controlled and remove them from society.
If there were feral cats ready to move in that are much hungrier, then they should be easier to bait or trap. Win Win.
There is no place in this country for cats and it is one of the worst mistakes ever made in bringing them hear in the first place. Just ask the wildlife that was hear long before the cat. Oh you cant because a lot of them are extinct or dead anyway.
What did you do about your cats that were ecological disasters? Did you take responsibility for them in any way?
You yourself have said it, your “top” cat would chase away ALL THE OTHER CATS so as to make it safer in your yard for the birdlife. He was a fighter”. Can’t you see what you are saying?
I would personally take great pleasure in being able to trap wondering cats, that were not being kept under control, by their irresponsible owners. I could then do a study on how long it takes the cat owners to get the message that their cat is a roaming cat, like all healthy cats, and I would dispose of them for free.
Problem solved…………

Rats and mice are not native. That’s what was the main catch of cats that did hunt. Not all cats have. I am happy for cats to get rats and mice, or would you prefer them in your food cupboard eating the food and cr$pping? I don’t have a cat, but all the cats I know are desexed, so they can’t have kittens. I imagine most pet cats are. Of course there can always be found examples of really irresponsible owners of any pet, such as my tenants who let their dog die in the back yard and left it there to rot. Neighbours called in the RSPCA. They didn’t have a cat, but if they did they would be the sort of person who would have an undesexed cat. Nothing will change with those people, so don’t hold it against all cat owners for people like this, just as it should not be held against all dog owners because there are people like my tenants. Most people are more responsible than this.
Yes, my cat chased the other cats away (out of the garden). Not very sociable of him, but so?
Trapping someone’s pet is cruel and selfish. Because YOU don’t like cats, others must suffer heartache, often lasting a long time. They are very loved members of households.

You still don’t get the point.
Yes your cat was a fighter, as you have said, not very social but so? Its not very social as I and several others have stated, when the cats that are roaming around fight late at night making an awful noise. That’s what.
I would not be able to trap someones cat if they were not roaming around now would I?
What about the heartache these uncontrolled cats do to peoples PET BIRDS. Have you ever had a child wake up and go out to say good morning to their budgie, only to see a bunch of feathers and a dead bird on the bottom of the cage? Well I have . That’s real heartache.
Don’t talk to me about cruel and selfish.
There is nothing more cruel than a cat that kills because most of the time it is just for fun and not because they are hungry.
Selfish is what you are thinking that everyone else has to tolerate your out of date opinion on cats and the ignorant stance that you continue to take. You think everyone else has to tolerate the bloody cats and their wicked ways because you want to keep one, oh but not only keep one, you expect them to fight ,kill, and cr$p in everyone elses yard.
I don’t think it is too much to ask, for you and the like minded, to stop your killers from sh#tting in a childs sand box, do you. Do you think if a child wants to play in the sand box that they should have to clean it everytime they do? Cant you see that children should not be forced by, ignorant and arrogant cat owners, to have to play with turds?
You have not answered the question about what responsibility YOU took for the destructive and evil behaviour of the cats that you owned that you your self have called ecological disasters.Did you call them that because YOU cant come to terms with reality and call them what they are, KILLERS.
You are pretty quick to judge everybody else whos opinion is not the same as yours. Your opinion is outdated and selfish, a reflection of YOU.
Why are YOU so special that you don’t have to give a damn about anyone elses right not to have to put up with some elses pet trespassing and all that goes with it.
If people cant control their cat to stay in their own property then they should not have them at all.
Lock them up or you might not see them again…….

Maya123 said :

Rats and mice are not native. That’s what was the main catch of cats that did hunt.

There are ~60 species of native rats and mice in Australia. The main catch of cats that hunt is, in fact, reptiles – not birds or mammals. But don’t let your continual emotional diatribe get in the way of the facts.

Maya123 said :

Trapping someone’s pet is cruel and selfish. Because YOU don’t like cats, others must suffer heartache, often lasting a long time. They are very loved members of households.

If they are so much loved, then why do you have such a problem with being responsible by keeping them indoors to minimise impacts on wildlife? Even in the face of overwhelming evidence, you keep coming out with BS after BS about why they should be allowed to roam (and kill).

Cats kill 75 million animals in Australia every night. We have to start doing something about it, and it starts with responsible cat owners doing their bit by keeping *ALL* cats indoors. This is not about dogs versus cats. It is about responsible cat ownership.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/greg-hunt-calls-for-eradication-of-feral-cats-that-kill-75m-animals-a-night/story-fn59niix-1226939644027

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

jcitizen said :

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

Although they are devastating to the wildlife, what about the roaming cats that always seem to use my yard to fight in late at night and use the kids sandpit as their bloody toilet box.

And where do you think “FERRAL CATS” come from?????

These days, mostly from other feral cats. Get rid of all domestic cats and it won’t make any difference to the feral population, except maybe some feral cats might move in to replace the space vacated by domestic cats, and they will be a lot hungrier and destructive. And unlike domestic cats, which research has shown not all hunt; ALL the feral cats will.

I have known several cat owners over the years that have had there cat disappear from their house for periods of time only to return home a lot thinner after giving birth to a litter of kittens, either in a drain somewhere, under a house,neighbours garage or the back of a shopping centre, somewhere out of sight.
What happens to the next generation if they don’t end up at the pound being put down ? Are you saying that they are domesticated and not feral? Are you also saying that not all of these will hunt or try to” play” with the local bird life?
Locking them up and controlling them would only be cruel if the cat wasn’t domesticated enough, content and happy being with their owners. Why keep them if they are not content being in the company of their owners in the first place? What do you think their motivation is to want to roam around? A roaming cat is a cat that’s up to no good, killing, fighting, breeding and sh#!ting. I don’t think they are playing cards.
Cat owners should control their cats or simply not have them, just like dog owners.
Lock em up. You have to start somewhere.
Trap the ones that are not controlled and remove them from society.
If there were feral cats ready to move in that are much hungrier, then they should be easier to bait or trap. Win Win.
There is no place in this country for cats and it is one of the worst mistakes ever made in bringing them hear in the first place. Just ask the wildlife that was hear long before the cat. Oh you cant because a lot of them are extinct or dead anyway.
What did you do about your cats that were ecological disasters? Did you take responsibility for them in any way?
You yourself have said it, your “top” cat would chase away ALL THE OTHER CATS so as to make it safer in your yard for the birdlife. He was a fighter”. Can’t you see what you are saying?
I would personally take great pleasure in being able to trap wondering cats, that were not being kept under control, by their irresponsible owners. I could then do a study on how long it takes the cat owners to get the message that their cat is a roaming cat, like all healthy cats, and I would dispose of them for free.
Problem solved…………

Rats and mice are not native. That’s what was the main catch of cats that did hunt. Not all cats have. I am happy for cats to get rats and mice, or would you prefer them in your food cupboard eating the food and cr$pping? I don’t have a cat, but all the cats I know are desexed, so they can’t have kittens. I imagine most pet cats are. Of course there can always be found examples of really irresponsible owners of any pet, such as my tenants who let their dog die in the back yard and left it there to rot. Neighbours called in the RSPCA. They didn’t have a cat, but if they did they would be the sort of person who would have an undesexed cat. Nothing will change with those people, so don’t hold it against all cat owners for people like this, just as it should not be held against all dog owners because there are people like my tenants. Most people are more responsible than this.
Yes, my cat chased the other cats away (out of the garden). Not very sociable of him, but so?
Trapping someone’s pet is cruel and selfish. Because YOU don’t like cats, others must suffer heartache, often lasting a long time. They are very loved members of households.

I don’t see what there is to complain about. Keep your mangy cat on your own property. They are a pest. It’s about time the large number of completely irresponsible cat owners were forced to keep their fluffy little killing machine inside. The foul smell you will have to put up with in your house is punishment for assisting in propagating an invasive pest.

Maya123 said :

jcitizen said :

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

Although they are devastating to the wildlife, what about the roaming cats that always seem to use my yard to fight in late at night and use the kids sandpit as their bloody toilet box.

And where do you think “FERRAL CATS” come from?????

These days, mostly from other feral cats. Get rid of all domestic cats and it won’t make any difference to the feral population, except maybe some feral cats might move in to replace the space vacated by domestic cats, and they will be a lot hungrier and destructive. And unlike domestic cats, which research has shown not all hunt; ALL the feral cats will.

I have known several cat owners over the years that have had there cat disappear from their house for periods of time only to return home a lot thinner after giving birth to a litter of kittens, either in a drain somewhere, under a house,neighbours garage or the back of a shopping centre, somewhere out of sight.
What happens to the next generation if they don’t end up at the pound being put down ? Are you saying that they are domesticated and not feral? Are you also saying that not all of these will hunt or try to” play” with the local bird life?
Locking them up and controlling them would only be cruel if the cat wasn’t domesticated enough, content and happy being with their owners. Why keep them if they are not content being in the company of their owners in the first place? What do you think their motivation is to want to roam around? A roaming cat is a cat that’s up to no good, killing, fighting, breeding and sh#!ting. I don’t think they are playing cards.
Cat owners should control their cats or simply not have them, just like dog owners.
Lock em up. You have to start somewhere.
Trap the ones that are not controlled and remove them from society.
If there were feral cats ready to move in that are much hungrier, then they should be easier to bait or trap. Win Win.
There is no place in this country for cats and it is one of the worst mistakes ever made in bringing them hear in the first place. Just ask the wildlife that was hear long before the cat. Oh you cant because a lot of them are extinct or dead anyway.
What did you do about your cats that were ecological disasters? Did you take responsibility for them in any way?
You yourself have said it, your “top” cat would chase away ALL THE OTHER CATS so as to make it safer in your yard for the birdlife. He was a fighter”. Can’t you see what you are saying?
I would personally take great pleasure in being able to trap wondering cats, that were not being kept under control, by their irresponsible owners. I could then do a study on how long it takes the cat owners to get the message that their cat is a roaming cat, like all healthy cats, and I would dispose of them for free.
Problem solved…………

jcitizen said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

dkNigs said :

Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

Isn’t it already?

Seriously, my two cents worth is that if a dog owner, or horse owner, or owner of any other animal must keep their pet on a leash or contained in their premises, why not cat owners? These are the only animals that appear to be able to freely roam the neighborhood and do as they please without any penalty.
As for the foreign feline peeing in the garden, that isn’t the worst of it. How about when they decide a children’s sandpit becomes their toilet? We had cats in our backyard and cr@p in the sandpit. After we bought a dog, that stopped. I still got woken up some nights with the awful caterwauling from some male trying to assert their dominance in our front yard, attracting the attention of all the dogs in the neighborhood too. If I were to sit under your bedroom window at 3 A.M. and imitate a crying baby, you’d have every right to call the police, so why do cats get away with it?

+1 for sure….

And what do you do about the possums fighting under your window? Much more common and noisier than fighting cats. And then the noisy as they run over the roof. But…ah, they are native, so one doesn’t complain.

jcitizen said :

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

Although they are devastating to the wildlife, what about the roaming cats that always seem to use my yard to fight in late at night and use the kids sandpit as their bloody toilet box.

And where do you think “FERRAL CATS” come from?????

These days, mostly from other feral cats. Get rid of all domestic cats and it won’t make any difference to the feral population, except maybe some feral cats might move in to replace the space vacated by domestic cats, and they will be a lot hungrier and destructive. And unlike domestic cats, which research has shown not all hunt; ALL the feral cats will.

wildturkeycanoe said :

dkNigs said :

Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

Isn’t it already?

Seriously, my two cents worth is that if a dog owner, or horse owner, or owner of any other animal must keep their pet on a leash or contained in their premises, why not cat owners? These are the only animals that appear to be able to freely roam the neighborhood and do as they please without any penalty.
As for the foreign feline peeing in the garden, that isn’t the worst of it. How about when they decide a children’s sandpit becomes their toilet? We had cats in our backyard and cr@p in the sandpit. After we bought a dog, that stopped. I still got woken up some nights with the awful caterwauling from some male trying to assert their dominance in our front yard, attracting the attention of all the dogs in the neighborhood too. If I were to sit under your bedroom window at 3 A.M. and imitate a crying baby, you’d have every right to call the police, so why do cats get away with it?

+1 for sure….

jcitizen said :

Maya123 said :

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

Although they are devastating to the wildlife, what about the roaming cats that always seem to use my yard to fight in late at night and use the kids sandpit as their bloody toilet box.

And where do you think “FERRAL CATS” come from?????

Maya123 said :

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

Although they are devastating to the wildlife, what about the roaming cats that always seem to use my yard to fight in late at night and use the kids sandpit as their bloody toilet box.

Where I live, Narrabundah, there are mostly exotic plants, and I don’t live near a reserve. There has been far more damage done by urban living than ever a cat could do. I don’t see that a cat (I don’t have one by the way) could do a great deal of damage. And the urban damage is increasing most times when an old house is replaced by a new McMansion, or townhouses. Where a smaller old house had some garden, even if exotic, most (not all) new houses fill most of the block, and then are likely to concrete much of the rest (thinking of a new house near me). Forget the cats, what habitat is there really for bird life, especially small bird life. Into this bird habitat ‘desert’, far from a reserve, I don’t see a cat is able to do a great deal of damage.
I am planting some native plants, but most of my garden space is taken up with exotic productive plantings; fruit trees and the like, vegetable gardens. Where I have space I am planting natives, but they are not the major part of the garden. My garden, as an example, will not be that small bird friendly. And neither are many around me.

Antagonist said :

Garfield said :

From that study, of the 55 cats with cams attached, only 16 caught anything, so that’s only 29% successfully hunting over the course of 7-10 days. There is a big difference between domestic and feral cats – being that domestic cats get fed by their owners and don’t have to hunt to stay alive, and so lots of them don’t.

From a sum total of 1 study in the US, “… twenty-four cats were witnessed stalking or chasing prey.” That makes up the 44%. You also conveniently ignore statements like “Even if an animal was not depredated, indirect effects on fecundity and behaviour (due to cat stalking and chasing) are possible.” And of course there is this 500lb fat cat here: “Our study results suggest that increased recording time may have revealed additional hunting behaviours or revealed that a slight higher percentage of roaming cats are hunters.”

And of course, the big recommendation from the authors: “[public education is needed to] … encourage cat owners to minimise the impact of hunting cats by keeping pets indoors, supervising outdoor roaming time or providing outdoor enclosures for their pets.”

Unsupported assertion: “… domestic cats get fed by their owners and don’t have to hunt to stay alive, and so lots of them don’t.” Scientific paper based on a Canberra study: “Predatory behaviour by house cats appeared largely opportunistic with respect to spatial (habitat) and temporal (daily and seasonal) prey availability and accessibility …”. Barratt, DG (1997), Predation by House Cats, Felis catus (L.), in Canberra, Australia. I. Prey Composition and Preference. Wildlife Research 24(3) 263 – 277.

The impact of domestic and feral cats on wildlife is well documented and undeniable. Even well fed fat cats with owners.

From that study, the average free roaming domestic cat killed 0.7 creatures per week, including insects, for an average total of 36 creatures per year per cat. How many creatures does a feral cat kill in a year? If we say its one a day, keeping in mind that many creatures killed would not constitute a full days food but that they can scavenge some food, that’s 10 times the impact of a domestic cat. So I’ll stand by my comment that there’s a big difference between domestic cats and feral cats.

Lets also look at what would be happening if there was no human presence. There would be dingoes, snakes and goannas preying upon the same sorts of creatures. We have decimated the natural predator populations opening up the food chain for cats.

Garfield said :

From that study, of the 55 cats with cams attached, only 16 caught anything, so that’s only 29% successfully hunting over the course of 7-10 days. There is a big difference between domestic and feral cats – being that domestic cats get fed by their owners and don’t have to hunt to stay alive, and so lots of them don’t.

From a sum total of 1 study in the US, “… twenty-four cats were witnessed stalking or chasing prey.” That makes up the 44%. You also conveniently ignore statements like “Even if an animal was not depredated, indirect effects on fecundity and behaviour (due to cat stalking and chasing) are possible.” And of course there is this 500lb fat cat here: “Our study results suggest that increased recording time may have revealed additional hunting behaviours or revealed that a slight higher percentage of roaming cats are hunters.”

And of course, the big recommendation from the authors: “[public education is needed to] … encourage cat owners to minimise the impact of hunting cats by keeping pets indoors, supervising outdoor roaming time or providing outdoor enclosures for their pets.”

Unsupported assertion: “… domestic cats get fed by their owners and don’t have to hunt to stay alive, and so lots of them don’t.” Scientific paper based on a Canberra study: “Predatory behaviour by house cats appeared largely opportunistic with respect to spatial (habitat) and temporal (daily and seasonal) prey availability and accessibility …”. Barratt, DG (1997), Predation by House Cats, Felis catus (L.), in Canberra, Australia. I. Prey Composition and Preference. Wildlife Research 24(3) 263 – 277.

The impact of domestic and feral cats on wildlife is well documented and undeniable. Even well fed fat cats with owners.

Maya123 said :

Antagonist said :

Maya123 said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Maya123 said :

Alexandra Craig said :

dkNigs said :

While I think feline predators should be locked up, what about the health of the cats? I don’t know a single person with an inside cat that isn’t three times the weight it should be. Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

My cat is an indoor cat and she’s not overweight. I excercise her inside – throw her toys around, up and down the stairs etc. It’s not difficult to keep them in shape.

Not all cats are interested in or will play with toys. How do they exercise?

If they don’t play with toys, they play with the local wildlife. It isn’t like they just run back and forward just for the fun of it.

Not necessarily true. Research shows that not all domestic cats hunt. The only cat I had that never ever appeared to hunt (I wrote about that cat in more detail earlier. Other cats I have had, have hunted more or less as per individual), was never interested in toys, either as a kitten or an adult. Whereas all the cats that liked to hunt were. It was as if playing with toys showed a future interest in, and was practice for future hunting, and as toys never interested him, neither did hunting. However, as a kitten he liked to play fight with other kittens, and he grew up a fighter.

Source? Every scientific article I have found shows that all cats hunt and kill – including those authors that make the dubious distinction between domestic and feral cats.

Lets entertain your assertion that not all cats hunt, just for a brief moment. Those cats would be a minority of the moggie population. Based upon the behaviour of the majority, we still have a very strong case for 24 hour confinement of cats. It is not cruel to confine them if you provide them with an appropriate area to do what cats do. If this were not the case, then the RSPCA would find themselves in all kinds of trouble for the setup of their cattery out at Weston, no?

http://www.kittycams.uga.edu/other/Loyd%20et%20al%202013.pdf
I have been meaning to read this, but I am travelling at present. But some quotes from a glance:
“Forty-four percent of free-roaming cats hunted wildlife” (Which apparently means 56% did not)
“5. Conclusions and management recommendations
A minority of owned, free-roaming cats in ACC were witnessed
hunting, similar to the findings of
Baker et al. (2008)
in the UK”

From that study, of the 55 cats with cams attached, only 16 caught anything, so that’s only 29% successfully hunting over the course of 7-10 days. There is a big difference between domestic and feral cats – being that domestic cats get fed by their owners and don’t have to hunt to stay alive, and so lots of them don’t.

If it’s not cruel to stop a dog from roaming the streets at will, it’s not cruel to do the same with cats. I don’t really care if you can’t get your cat to go for a walk on a lead because it’s the boss, not you, that’s an issue with your training and your cat thinking it is alpha.

Maya123 said :

http://www.kittycams.uga.edu/other/Loyd%20et%20al%202013.pdf
I have been meaning to read this, but I am travelling at present. But some quotes from a glance:
“Forty-four percent of free-roaming cats hunted wildlife” (Which apparently means 56% did not)

Apparently it does not mean that at all. 10% of cats did not provide data due to lazy owners, or the cats strong dislike for the collar (which allegedly had no effect on cat behaviour). This, from a large and ‘representative’ selection of 60 cats, at a study site in the US (read: nothing like Australia, or its bush capital Canberra).

Maya123 said :

“5. Conclusions and management recommendations
A minority of owned, free-roaming cats in ACC were witnessed
hunting, similar to the findings of
Baker et al. (2008)
in the UK”

Note the last line of the abstract: “Our results suggest that studies of pet cat predation on wildlife using owner surveys significantly underestimated capture rates of hunting cats.” That says something about you as a cat owner, and about the impact of cats on wildlife too.

“Our study results suggest that increased recording time may have revealed additional hunting behaviours or revealed that a slight higher percentage of roaming cats are hunters. Additionally, we only monitored each cat for 1 month of one season.” So the results of this single study are likely to underestimate how many domestic cats are hunters.

“Even if an animal was not depredated, indirect effects on fecundity and behaviour (due to cat stalking and chasing) are possible.” So cats don’t have to catch prey to have a negative impact on wildlife.

“[public education is needed to] … encourage cat owners to minimise the impact of hunting cats by keeping pets indoors, supervising outdoor roaming time or providing outdoor enclosures for their pets. Cats which are known to be avid hunters should either be kept completely indoors, or supervised while outdoors … to protect wildlife”. Which adds more weight to the findings of the folks at ANU’s Fenner School.

Antagonist said :

Maya123 said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Maya123 said :

Alexandra Craig said :

dkNigs said :

While I think feline predators should be locked up, what about the health of the cats? I don’t know a single person with an inside cat that isn’t three times the weight it should be. Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

My cat is an indoor cat and she’s not overweight. I excercise her inside – throw her toys around, up and down the stairs etc. It’s not difficult to keep them in shape.

Not all cats are interested in or will play with toys. How do they exercise?

If they don’t play with toys, they play with the local wildlife. It isn’t like they just run back and forward just for the fun of it.

Not necessarily true. Research shows that not all domestic cats hunt. The only cat I had that never ever appeared to hunt (I wrote about that cat in more detail earlier. Other cats I have had, have hunted more or less as per individual), was never interested in toys, either as a kitten or an adult. Whereas all the cats that liked to hunt were. It was as if playing with toys showed a future interest in, and was practice for future hunting, and as toys never interested him, neither did hunting. However, as a kitten he liked to play fight with other kittens, and he grew up a fighter.

Source? Every scientific article I have found shows that all cats hunt and kill – including those authors that make the dubious distinction between domestic and feral cats.

Lets entertain your assertion that not all cats hunt, just for a brief moment. Those cats would be a minority of the moggie population. Based upon the behaviour of the majority, we still have a very strong case for 24 hour confinement of cats. It is not cruel to confine them if you provide them with an appropriate area to do what cats do. If this were not the case, then the RSPCA would find themselves in all kinds of trouble for the setup of their cattery out at Weston, no?

http://www.kittycams.uga.edu/other/Loyd%20et%20al%202013.pdf
I have been meaning to read this, but I am travelling at present. But some quotes from a glance:
“Forty-four percent of free-roaming cats hunted wildlife” (Which apparently means 56% did not)
“5. Conclusions and management recommendations
A minority of owned, free-roaming cats in ACC were witnessed
hunting, similar to the findings of
Baker et al. (2008)
in the UK”

Maya123 said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

Maya123 said :

Alexandra Craig said :

dkNigs said :

While I think feline predators should be locked up, what about the health of the cats? I don’t know a single person with an inside cat that isn’t three times the weight it should be. Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

My cat is an indoor cat and she’s not overweight. I excercise her inside – throw her toys around, up and down the stairs etc. It’s not difficult to keep them in shape.

Not all cats are interested in or will play with toys. How do they exercise?

If they don’t play with toys, they play with the local wildlife. It isn’t like they just run back and forward just for the fun of it.

Not necessarily true. Research shows that not all domestic cats hunt. The only cat I had that never ever appeared to hunt (I wrote about that cat in more detail earlier. Other cats I have had, have hunted more or less as per individual), was never interested in toys, either as a kitten or an adult. Whereas all the cats that liked to hunt were. It was as if playing with toys showed a future interest in, and was practice for future hunting, and as toys never interested him, neither did hunting. However, as a kitten he liked to play fight with other kittens, and he grew up a fighter.

Source? Every scientific article I have found shows that all cats hunt and kill – including those authors that make the dubious distinction between domestic and feral cats.

Lets entertain your assertion that not all cats hunt, just for a brief moment. Those cats would be a minority of the moggie population. Based upon the behaviour of the majority, we still have a very strong case for 24 hour confinement of cats. It is not cruel to confine them if you provide them with an appropriate area to do what cats do. If this were not the case, then the RSPCA would find themselves in all kinds of trouble for the setup of their cattery out at Weston, no?

wildturkeycanoe said :

Maya123 said :

Alexandra Craig said :

dkNigs said :

While I think feline predators should be locked up, what about the health of the cats? I don’t know a single person with an inside cat that isn’t three times the weight it should be. Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

My cat is an indoor cat and she’s not overweight. I excercise her inside – throw her toys around, up and down the stairs etc. It’s not difficult to keep them in shape.

Not all cats are interested in or will play with toys. How do they exercise?

If they don’t play with toys, they play with the local wildlife. It isn’t like they just run back and forward just for the fun of it.

Not necessarily true. Research shows that not all domestic cats hunt. The only cat I had that never ever appeared to hunt (I wrote about that cat in more detail earlier. Other cats I have had, have hunted more or less as per individual), was never interested in toys, either as a kitten or an adult. Whereas all the cats that liked to hunt were. It was as if playing with toys showed a future interest in, and was practice for future hunting, and as toys never interested him, neither did hunting. However, as a kitten he liked to play fight with other kittens, and he grew up a fighter.

Maya123 said :

Alexandra Craig said :

dkNigs said :

While I think feline predators should be locked up, what about the health of the cats? I don’t know a single person with an inside cat that isn’t three times the weight it should be. Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

My cat is an indoor cat and she’s not overweight. I excercise her inside – throw her toys around, up and down the stairs etc. It’s not difficult to keep them in shape.

Not all cats are interested in or will play with toys. How do they exercise?

If they don’t play with toys, they play with the local wildlife. It isn’t like they just run back and forward just for the fun of it.

Maya123 said :

Alexandra Craig said :

dkNigs said :

While I think feline predators should be locked up, what about the health of the cats? I don’t know a single person with an inside cat that isn’t three times the weight it should be. Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

My cat is an indoor cat and she’s not overweight. I excercise her inside – throw her toys around, up and down the stairs etc. It’s not difficult to keep them in shape.

Not all cats are interested in or will play with toys. How do they exercise?

Laser pointers usually do the trick. I have one but only use it very rarely and for about 3 minutes at a time – my cats heart beat gets so high I’m scared I’ll give her a heart attack.

Failing that – people just need to take responsibility for how much they feed their pets.

Alexandra Craig said :

dkNigs said :

While I think feline predators should be locked up, what about the health of the cats? I don’t know a single person with an inside cat that isn’t three times the weight it should be. Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

My cat is an indoor cat and she’s not overweight. I excercise her inside – throw her toys around, up and down the stairs etc. It’s not difficult to keep them in shape.

Not all cats are interested in or will play with toys. How do they exercise?

dkNigs said :

While I think feline predators should be locked up, what about the health of the cats? I don’t know a single person with an inside cat that isn’t three times the weight it should be. Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

My cat is an indoor cat and she’s not overweight. I excercise her inside – throw her toys around, up and down the stairs etc. It’s not difficult to keep them in shape.

Reply

Steven Bailey said :

dungfungus said :

There is a decrepit cat at Woden Cemetery.
It crept into a crypt, cr@pped and crept out.

I think that’s one of your better ones Dungfungus… if that is your real name.

It’s a gift, Steven.
Of course Dungfungus is not my real name but most people in Canberra know who I am. There are no secrets in this town, Steven.

‘So where you have got a lot of foxes you tend to not have too many [feral] cats, and it looks like foxes are a big problem, and of course they are, but if we managed to knock the foxes down, the cats can come up, so in a sense we solve one problem and buy another problem.’
Quote from http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/feral-cats-re-write-the-australian-story/5802204
So basically we should be controlling both foxes (and wild dogs) and feral cats at the same time.

The cats could be eating Rabbits

Alexandra Craig said :

Canberroid said :

crackerpants said :

If this results in cats being contained as effectively as dogs currently are, then both species can continue to enjoy roaming far and wide and cr@pping wherever they please.

I see one or two of my neighbours’ cats out on the street most days of the week. I probably see a lone dog on the street once every few months at most. I like cats, but it’s blatently false to claim that the vast majority of pet owners allow their dogs free reign of the neighbourhood like they do with cats.

I guess the difference between dogs and cats is that you can give your dog reign of your yard, and they’ll stay there because they can’t scale high fences like cats can.

It is possible to cat-proof fences but most people won’t bother unless they have to. Plenty of dog breeds are adept escape artists, but dog owners have to dog-proof their yards or risk having their dog taken away (or whatever happens to regular canine escapees according to the law).

chewy14 said :

Canberroid said :

crackerpants said :

If this results in cats being contained as effectively as dogs currently are, then both species can continue to enjoy roaming far and wide and cr@pping wherever they please.

I see one or two of my neighbours’ cats out on the street most days of the week. I probably see a lone dog on the street once every few months at most. I like cats, but it’s blatently false to claim that the vast majority of pet owners allow their dogs free reign of the neighbourhood like they do with cats.

I agree. Instead they allow their mutts to defecate all over their neighbours property’s whilst under full supervision.

Which is an unrelated issue to containing cats to reduce damage done to wildlife.

dkNigs said :

Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

Isn’t it already?

Seriously, my two cents worth is that if a dog owner, or horse owner, or owner of any other animal must keep their pet on a leash or contained in their premises, why not cat owners? These are the only animals that appear to be able to freely roam the neighborhood and do as they please without any penalty.
As for the foreign feline peeing in the garden, that isn’t the worst of it. How about when they decide a children’s sandpit becomes their toilet? We had cats in our backyard and cr@p in the sandpit. After we bought a dog, that stopped. I still got woken up some nights with the awful caterwauling from some male trying to assert their dominance in our front yard, attracting the attention of all the dogs in the neighborhood too. If I were to sit under your bedroom window at 3 A.M. and imitate a crying baby, you’d have every right to call the police, so why do cats get away with it?

dungfungus said :

There is a decrepit cat at Woden Cemetery.
It crept into a crypt, cr@pped and crept out.

I think that’s one of your better ones Dungfungus… if that is your real name.

There is a decrepit cat at Woden Cemetery.
It crept into a crypt, cr@pped and crept out.

Alexandra Craig said :

Canberroid said :

crackerpants said :

If this results in cats being contained as effectively as dogs currently are, then both species can continue to enjoy roaming far and wide and cr@pping wherever they please.

I see one or two of my neighbours’ cats out on the street most days of the week. I probably see a lone dog on the street once every few months at most. I like cats, but it’s blatently false to claim that the vast majority of pet owners allow their dogs free reign of the neighbourhood like they do with cats.

I guess the difference between dogs and cats is that you can give your dog reign of your yard, and they’ll stay there because they can’t scale high fences like cats can.

Do you give your dog a crown and an iron throne for his reign of the yard?

While I think feline predators should be locked up, what about the health of the cats? I don’t know a single person with an inside cat that isn’t three times the weight it should be. Canberra will literally become the city of fat cats.

I say yes.
And make it airtight.

Maya123 said :

Yes, feral cats I agree with. But I was asking for the evidence of domestic cats. Where did you get the idea I meant feral? My argument was all about domestic. Read my comments. And in them I said well looked after and fed domestic cats. (So called) domestic cats that are not fed properly and basically left to fend for themselves, I would include with feral cats, not domestic. Lots of research on feral cats, but I’m asking for the research on domestic cats, living in suburbia (we are talking the Canberra situation here I presume). The suburbia that has done much more damage to wildlife, because of land clearances, etc, than a proper domestic cat is ever likely to do.

Here is a study published in a peer reviewed, scientific journal that demonstrates that owned, free-roaming, domestic cats actively hunt wildlife. http://www.kittycams.uga.edu/other/Loyd%20et%20al%202013.pdf
Admittedly, it is promoted by the organisation that manufactures the cameras used, however it was still conducted by scientists associated with the University of Georgia and Nat Geo.

There are other studies that demonstrate domestic cats do not only hunt for food (hunt, kill and then eat prey), but vindictively hunt as well (hunt, play with, potentially kill, then leave without eating).

Your suggestion that cats in the middle of suburbia would not impact wildlife is a little flawed, particularly in a town like Canberra when we have green corridors leading to most suburbs. It is not unusual to see all sorts of wildlife in the middle of Canberra, from big kangaroos bounding down Northbourne, to many skinks in the backyards of Weston Creek.

As I mentioned previously, I doubt anyone is saying that suburban development is not damaging to wildlife, however the damage done by free roaming, domestic animals is one aspect that we can mitigate. It is not reasonable to say that we can’t do something about one issue, because another (largely unrelated) issue is also damaging. On another scale, it’s like arguing against coal power because we use petrol to fuel our cars.

Antagonist said :

Maya123 said :

You are making my point. Saying “We don’t need the statistics.” has nothing to do with fact; it’s a witch hunt, akin to cats are the spawn of the devil; we don’t need facts, burn them. This has happened, and I get the feeling it’s coming about again. I read an unsubstantiated comment (by a cat hater actually), that two out of three cats don’t hunt. He then went on to rave about the one in three that does, basically calling for the eradication of all cats, and completely ignoring that he started his rant by an admittance two in three cats do not hunt. This though is not substantiated; it was just the rant of a single cat hater. What it would be good to have are the actually facts; not an ignorant witch hunt.
It doesn’t take facts to get a cat hater going; they just hate cats, and suddenly they can claim they are doing this for the environment. How they live the rest of their life would give a clue to whether this might be true, or if they are just conveniently getting on any bandwagon to justify their hatred of cats.

Wow. Don’t let your emotions blind you to a different point of view. The reason we don’t need the specific numbers is because there is an enormous amount of scientific literature that shows the impact of cats on native wildlife. It is a fact supported by scientific evidence. There is no scientific debate at all. There is nothing ‘cat hating’ about it. Nobody is doing any demonising – feral cat damage is clearly documented and supported by huge amounts of scientific literature from around the globe. Just have a quick look on Google Scholar if you really need any convincing of just how much literature there is out there. So let me just repeat: the only difference between a feral cat and a domestic cat is that one has an owner. There are no physical differences. There are no genetic differences. Just the owner – and not always a responsible one.

Just so there is no confusion, I have not called for the eradication of cats. I am neither a cat hater or a cat lover. I do, however, strongly support the idea of permanent confinement for pet cats.

Yes, feral cats I agree with. But I was asking for the evidence of domestic cats. Where did you get the idea I meant feral? My argument was all about domestic. Read my comments. And in them I said well looked after and fed domestic cats. (So called) domestic cats that are not fed properly and basically left to fend for themselves, I would include with feral cats, not domestic. Lots of research on feral cats, but I’m asking for the research on domestic cats, living in suburbia (we are talking the Canberra situation here I presume). The suburbia that has done much more damage to wildlife, because of land clearances, etc, than a proper domestic cat is ever likely to do.

some cats will go crazy if they are locked up to long….how about going after people that are cruel to animals …there more of a worry for everyone

this is what happens when greens get to much of a say….who do they want to lock up next…fishermen because they catch fish…

this is what happens when the greens get to much say…who do they want to lock up next…recreational hunters…

Canberroid said :

crackerpants said :

If this results in cats being contained as effectively as dogs currently are, then both species can continue to enjoy roaming far and wide and cr@pping wherever they please.

I see one or two of my neighbours’ cats out on the street most days of the week. I probably see a lone dog on the street once every few months at most. I like cats, but it’s blatently false to claim that the vast majority of pet owners allow their dogs free reign of the neighbourhood like they do with cats.

I agree. Instead they allow their mutts to defecate all over their neighbours property’s whilst under full supervision.

Where are you Captain RAAF, your wit and wisdom regarding this matter remains silent.

Canberroid said :

crackerpants said :

If this results in cats being contained as effectively as dogs currently are, then both species can continue to enjoy roaming far and wide and cr@pping wherever they please.

I see one or two of my neighbours’ cats out on the street most days of the week. I probably see a lone dog on the street once every few months at most. I like cats, but it’s blatently false to claim that the vast majority of pet owners allow their dogs free reign of the neighbourhood like they do with cats.

I guess the difference between dogs and cats is that you can give your dog reign of your yard, and they’ll stay there because they can’t scale high fences like cats can.

crackerpants said :

If this results in cats being contained as effectively as dogs currently are, then both species can continue to enjoy roaming far and wide and cr@pping wherever they please.

I see one or two of my neighbours’ cats out on the street most days of the week. I probably see a lone dog on the street once every few months at most. I like cats, but it’s blatently false to claim that the vast majority of pet owners allow their dogs free reign of the neighbourhood like they do with cats.

For those that remain unconvinced of the impact free ranging domestic cats can have on wildlife, I refer you to a study published in Nature last year (http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n1/abs/ncomms2380.html).
The authors estimate that “free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually.” While the study identifies that un-owned cats cause the majority of the damage, the damage caused by pet cats is not negligible.
More close to home: http://www.abc.net.au/environment/articles/2014/10/14/4106012.htm
The argument that urban development and infrastructure may cause more damage is, to a point, irrelevant, as this is a compounding issue and not mutually exclusive.

I might add that the ACT government may do better to advertise the existance of cat containment areas. I live in the newer part of Watson, and regularly see cats out and about, however I was unaware of the regulations until this week.
FWIW, I am a former cat owner and am certainly not against the owning of cats, however containment (much like desexing) must be seen as an obligation of owners.

There’s not much point to such rules. People who are responsible and careful owners probably aren’t the ones with pets causing any problem, people who don’t give a stuff will continue the way they are.

Maya123 said :

You are making my point. Saying “We don’t need the statistics.” has nothing to do with fact; it’s a witch hunt, akin to cats are the spawn of the devil; we don’t need facts, burn them. This has happened, and I get the feeling it’s coming about again. I read an unsubstantiated comment (by a cat hater actually), that two out of three cats don’t hunt. He then went on to rave about the one in three that does, basically calling for the eradication of all cats, and completely ignoring that he started his rant by an admittance two in three cats do not hunt. This though is not substantiated; it was just the rant of a single cat hater. What it would be good to have are the actually facts; not an ignorant witch hunt.
It doesn’t take facts to get a cat hater going; they just hate cats, and suddenly they can claim they are doing this for the environment. How they live the rest of their life would give a clue to whether this might be true, or if they are just conveniently getting on any bandwagon to justify their hatred of cats.

Wow. Don’t let your emotions blind you to a different point of view. The reason we don’t need the specific numbers is because there is an enormous amount of scientific literature that shows the impact of cats on native wildlife. It is a fact supported by scientific evidence. There is no scientific debate at all. There is nothing ‘cat hating’ about it. Nobody is doing any demonising – feral cat damage is clearly documented and supported by huge amounts of scientific literature from around the globe. Just have a quick look on Google Scholar if you really need any convincing of just how much literature there is out there. So let me just repeat: the only difference between a feral cat and a domestic cat is that one has an owner. There are no physical differences. There are no genetic differences. Just the owner – and not always a responsible one.

Just so there is no confusion, I have not called for the eradication of cats. I am neither a cat hater or a cat lover. I do, however, strongly support the idea of permanent confinement for pet cats.

I love cats and I think it’s best for all parties involved if cats are contained inside. It’s better for the wildlife, better for the cats safety, and better for the owner’s peace of mind. My cat stays indoors – I don’t want her going near the road or getting mauled by a dog.

I know it will be hard for outdoor cats to become indoor cats if they change the laws, but owners will have to wean their cats off the outdoors slowly, and maybe teach them to walk on a leash. I have a few friends that successfully walk their cat.

My cat goes out onto our back courtyard for a few hours each day (under my supervision), so she still gets fresh air and an opportunity to chase leaves etc.

If they enforced a state wide cat containment rule across the ACT, I’d be in favour of it.

If this results in cats being contained as effectively as dogs currently are, then both species can continue to enjoy roaming far and wide and cr@pping wherever they please.

FWIW, my cat was happily an indoor-only cat from the time I adopted her, but as husband and kids came along it rapidly became impractical. We would provide a run for her if required to, but I can see that it would be prohibitively expensive for some people (they cost several grand depending on design), and not within what is currently considered a “routine” expense for keeping a small domestic animal.

Antagonist said :

Maya123 said :

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

There is already a limit of three cats per household, unless you have a licence. Keeping a cat confined is not cruel, and is not the same as keeping a cat indoors, although a cat kept indoors will do just fine if you provide them with stimulation (boxes, toys etc). It is called responsible ownership.

Maya123 said :

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

We don’t need the statistics. The only difference between a domestic cat and feral cat is that one has an owner, while the other does not. Otherwise there is zero difference.

You are making my point. Saying “We don’t need the statistics.” has nothing to do with fact; it’s a witch hunt, akin to cats are the spawn of the devil; we don’t need facts, burn them. This has happened, and I get the feeling it’s coming about again. I read an unsubstantiated comment (by a cat hater actually), that two out of three cats don’t hunt. He then went on to rave about the one in three that does, basically calling for the eradication of all cats, and completely ignoring that he started his rant by an admittance two in three cats do not hunt. This though is not substantiated; it was just the rant of a single cat hater. What it would be good to have are the actually facts; not an ignorant witch hunt.
It doesn’t take facts to get a cat hater going; they just hate cats, and suddenly they can claim they are doing this for the environment. How they live the rest of their life would give a clue to whether this might be true, or if they are just conveniently getting on any bandwagon to justify their hatred of cats.

Some interesting reads and arguments on this:
http://optimail.com.au/berrime/wildcats.htm

http://members.iinet.net.au/~rabbit/catdeb.htm

bd84 said :

Cats are pests, and should be treated as such when outside.

Do you think roaming cats should be destroyed without informing the owner?

Southmouth said :

I have a cat which is kept inside. He knows no other life. I took the decision to prevent him wandering as I like to see parrots and pardalotes in the garden.

Making cats born from now, required to meet the new rules would be the way to go.

I must say though that in my travels I see many many more foxes than feral cats. In Victoria they have re introduced the bounty on foxes due to their plundering of our native furry critters.

Actually, yes Southmouth, I agree. I’ve seen many more foxes too!

Maya123 said :

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

There is already a limit of three cats per household, unless you have a licence. Keeping a cat confined is not cruel, and is not the same as keeping a cat indoors, although a cat kept indoors will do just fine if you provide them with stimulation (boxes, toys etc). It is called responsible ownership.

Maya123 said :

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

We don’t need the statistics. The only difference between a domestic cat and feral cat is that one has an owner, while the other does not. Otherwise there is zero difference.

Zan said :

I am sick of cats using my backyard as a toilet

I hear that argument used, but even though I have had a large vegetable garden,several cats living in neighbouring houses who like to visit me daily, I have NEVER had a problem with cats using my garden as a toilet. Yes, they did use it, but it was never a problem. Come on, most cats dig a hole and bury it. How is this a problem? It breaks down as fertiliser. I did have a tenant though who had a BIG problem with this, but she had other compulsive problems too, such as counting footsteps, cleaning up about others as they cooked etc. But she liked the cats; it was just their toilet habits that got her frantic.

“Referring to the possible prohibition, Rattenbury said, ‘I think if we were to go down that path there would need to be a long lead-in time’…..”

In other words, talk about it in a fairly general way, but don’t make any firm decisions until after the next election, because an actual ban might be the last straw for some of the less rusted-on Labor/Green voters in this town.

(Not a cat owner, but happy enough to see neighbours’ moggies exploring my garden).

The dog catchers in this town are to become cat catchers now? I can just see that happening.

The Number One destroyer of native wildlife in Australia is habitat destruction, by us, by coming here in the first place. Maybe those who thought this unworkable proposition up should look at removing themselves from the environment.

Looking forward to it. I am sick of cats using my backyard as a toilet as they manage to crawl under the gate and climb the wooden fence.

Re foxes: they have done a study where most foxes were killed and found that cats took over. Foxes kept the cat population down in the area where the study was done. Can’t remember where I saw that, on a science show on ABC or Landline.

Our two have been indoors cats as long as we’ve had them. Originally we had a free standing enclosure and walked them around the yard on leads (yes, we’re ‘those’ people) and put an enclosure onto the new place when we moved in. They still get to sleep in the sun, eat grass and chase insects (and the one tiny bird that got in through the mesh) and don’t seem distressed at all. Well, except when we are out gardening and the stripy cat tries to convince us that he should be out with us.
They get used to it pretty quickly.

I have no problems with protecting native wildlife.

I wonder though, what is the impact on our fauna caused by urban development, roads and other infrastructure in comparison to the impact caused by domestic and/or feral cats?

I haven’t had a cat for a few years now, but in the past I have had cats and the interest in hunting has varied from cat to cat. I have had some cats that could have been considered ecological disasters, but my last cat never showed much interest in hunting, so individual cat’s hunting instinct varies. My last cat would lie out in the sun and ignore birds hopping not far from him, except to lift up his head occasionally and meow at them. If anyone thinks he was lazy he wasn’t, as he was a fighter and being a big cat (just under 7kgs and slim) one of the ‘top’ local cats. He chased other cats out of my yard, making it a safer place for birds. And the birds seemed to know this, ignoring my cat and walking around the ground scarily close to him. I never found feathers as evidence that he took them secretly either. Funnily, that cat was not interested in toys as a kitten either, but be liked to play fight with another kitten. Maybe that was a sign he would grow up a fighter, but not a hunter. I have read the argument that there are cats with low hunting instinct and they are the cats that should be breed from.
One of the greatest danger to local birds in my garden came when that cat died. Another cat was sitting in my back garden and a bird landed close to it. The bird was lucky to escape. My guess is that bird had come to consider my yard safe, even with a cat there. This time though it was the wrong cat.

Re locking cats up, I think it is akin to being imprisoned. Some cats might like to live inside. Fine. But for the others it is cruel. A better solution might be to place a future limit on the number of cats per household.

Has anyone actually got the statistics of wildlife loss from (well cared for and fed) domestic cats versus wildlife loss from feral cats (perhaps include here also not properly cared for and fed domestic cats) and foxes. Domestic cats are blamed for a lot, but are they really as bad as they are made out to be, or just more visible than feral cats and foxes, and an easier target? Researched wildlife loss would be interesting.

Would this mean I could have my once-a-year fireworks back?

I have no problem with cats themselves, but I do think all cats should be kept indoors and owners given a hefty fine if their moggy is let loose to wreak havoc on the environment. That should be the case for all suburbs in Canberra.

As for a ‘long lead in time’ on introducing permanent confinement? 12 months is more than enough time for cat owners to get themselves ready. If a cat owner cannot afford to make the necessary adjustments within 12 months, then they cannot afford to take proper and responsible care of the cat in the first place. Responsible dog owners do not let their dogs roam the neighbourhood. Responsible cat owners should do exactly the same.

Cats are pests, and should be treated as such when outside. Other pets are not allowed to roam the streets freely and I don’t see why cats should be allowed to, particular when they are a major threat to wildlife.

But if they changed the laws, the government would actually need to enforce the laws, which I suspect will be put in the too hard basket given they don’t currently do that in the existing containment suburbs.

I have a cat which is kept inside. He knows no other life. I took the decision to prevent him wandering as I like to see parrots and pardalotes in the garden.

Making cats born from now, required to meet the new rules would be the way to go.

I must say though that in my travels I see many many more foxes than feral cats. In Victoria they have re introduced the bounty on foxes due to their plundering of our native furry critters.