Residential rates up only 4.5pc but levies on rise

vip.peter said :

What Tuggeranong got 15-20m years ago was the budget solution, half finished bridge piers lay where expansions could be made, however they never were. The idea being that once the area grew (and it did) there would be cause to upgrade based on traffic flow. However instead we have Bandaid solutions. We’re told rat running is a huge problem.
North side has a flyover for the Aranda exit which seems to service but a single suburb. Most of the south is a repeat offender for being on the blackspot program.

Its not just gungahlin either several areas in belconnen town centre got hot mix where the those in Tuggeranong got gravel, that was either hot glued down or just asked to sit quietly because it peeled within a week. Western Creek got a mix of quicksand.

Sadly not even proceeding with the road duplications the government has ambitiously started to develop in the land set aside. The area next to Athlon drive is all set as land for future development.

How is work going on Woden bus interchange? Hadn’t been upgraded since it was built.

Wow the pettiness amazes me, well actually it doesn’t.

Firstly Tuggeranong roads being built single lane, what you mean the same as Gungahlin? Hmmm

Aranda exit, ohh whoopty do you do realise the reason it is there is because the local road that used to service it got taken over by Gungahlin drive.

Gravel roads, hmm the roads in Tuggeranong were not built that way they have got it as part of maintenance exactly what has happened in the suburban Gungahlin roads recently. There gets to be a time where they need a complete resurface some suburbs in Tuggeranong may be due thinking more Kanabah area.

Widen interchange had had a least one major upgrade and I think two actually. With a 3rd due.

Still yet to see any evidence Tuggeranong or the Southside is getting shafted. Lots of whinging though.

vip.peter said :

How is work going on Woden bus interchange? Hadn’t been upgraded since it was built.

Well, it’s better than Civic bus interchange. Plus in a better position. At least one can take their shopping trolley there with the shopping and there is a place designed to leave trolleys. Civic is too far from most shops and the facilities are worse than Woden. Compared to Civic, Woden was okay before work was commenced on it, so I don’t know why you appear to be complaining about it. So, it hasn’t been upgraded since it was built…that doesn’t mean it needed lots of major work.

No_Nose said :

dungfungus said :

gooterz said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

gooterz said :

dungfungus said :

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. The issue is just how much even basic maintenance and repairs have slipped in Tuggeranong and maintenance of the status quo – let alone substantive improvements.

Personally I don’t think maintenance and upkeep is any worse outside of the new areas. New infrastructure yes, but for the obvious reasons . And I live in West Belconnen… An area that seems to have a lot of people complaining what about me and I sit there scratching my head asking what more do you want?

Even new parts of down south are done poorly. The roads are far less quality than their northern counterparts. There are many more flyovers up north for less people than down south. Its simply that money only sees the voters that vote Labor.

Its taken until 2016 to get lights and fencing on the parkway, however that’s fully funded from the feds.
Majura parkway helps the south siders head out of town.

Last major work around Tuggeranong was the part duplication of Athlon drive 7 years ago. The roads between Sulwood drive and Drakeford drive didn’t get the duplication but got a speed (average) camera that’s useless.

There seems to be a major accident on this route every 6 months.

The south intersection of Drakeford and Athlon drive seems like a hatchet job of crazy.
You can’t see oncoming traffic because there’s a pile of roundabout in the way. There needs to be lights to control traffic to the round about and you end up with lots of traffic rat running around the whole area.

The go to response to just wack in some speed claiming devices in the suburbs to persuade motorists to wait in queue instead.

If this intersection was on the north side it’d already have a flyover with fancy lighting.
I guess we’ll have to wait for the feds to give us money for all our upgrades.

http://the-riotact.com/curtin-traffic-changes-for-your-consideration/62006

Can you give some examples of these wonderful northside flyovers? I can think of a couple on Gungahlin drive, but by the same token I can think of just as many on the Tuggeranong Parkway.

Roads projects, ignoring Gungahlin for a moment, where are all these northside road projects. And I say ignore Gungahlin, because quite clearly being where the new suburbs are of course you are going to get new roads and the like.

PS Molonoglo is southside too, but I have ignored it for the same reason as Gungahlin above.

So really what I am saying is if you are talking Tuggeranong when you say south and when you talk north you really mean Gungahlin then don’t think you have much to complain about. If you do genuinly mean the northside, eg North Canberra and Belconnen, then I put it to you that your claims of pork barrelling for Labor votes is very much mistaken. The north minus Gungahlin is no better nor no worse than Tuggeranong when it comes to getting roads and new services.

With the rapidly growing Muslim population in Canberra, the term “pork” barrelling will have to be changed soon or they will be offended.

I hear they are going to build a mosque and a church across the road from your place Guess you won’t complain about the church but will complain about traffic and noise from the mosque?

The mosque is already there JC. There is a vague Christian centre nearby.
Was originally called a cultural centre and library but it was approved as a mosque about 5 years ago.
The traffic and noise doesn’t bother me, yet.

What Tuggeranong got 15-20m years ago was the budget solution, half finished bridge piers lay where expansions could be made, however they never were. The idea being that once the area grew (and it did) there would be cause to upgrade based on traffic flow. However instead we have Bandaid solutions. We’re told rat running is a huge problem.
North side has a flyover for the Aranda exit which seems to service but a single suburb. Most of the south is a repeat offender for being on the blackspot program.

Its not just gungahlin either several areas in belconnen town centre got hot mix where the those in Tuggeranong got gravel, that was either hot glued down or just asked to sit quietly because it peeled within a week. Western Creek got a mix of quicksand.

Sadly not even proceeding with the road duplications the government has ambitiously started to develop in the land set aside. The area next to Athlon drive is all set as land for future development.

How is work going on Woden bus interchange? Hadn’t been upgraded since it was built.

Skyring said :

dungfungus said :

gooterz said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

gooterz said :

dungfungus said :

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. The issue is just how much even basic maintenance and repairs have slipped in Tuggeranong and maintenance of the status quo – let alone substantive improvements.

Personally I don’t think maintenance and upkeep is any worse outside of the new areas. New infrastructure yes, but for the obvious reasons . And I live in West Belconnen… An area that seems to have a lot of people complaining what about me and I sit there scratching my head asking what more do you want?

Even new parts of down south are done poorly. The roads are far less quality than their northern counterparts. There are many more flyovers up north for less people than down south. Its simply that money only sees the voters that vote Labor.

Its taken until 2016 to get lights and fencing on the parkway, however that’s fully funded from the feds.
Majura parkway helps the south siders head out of town.

Last major work around Tuggeranong was the part duplication of Athlon drive 7 years ago. The roads between Sulwood drive and Drakeford drive didn’t get the duplication but got a speed (average) camera that’s useless.

There seems to be a major accident on this route every 6 months.

The south intersection of Drakeford and Athlon drive seems like a hatchet job of crazy.
You can’t see oncoming traffic because there’s a pile of roundabout in the way. There needs to be lights to control traffic to the round about and you end up with lots of traffic rat running around the whole area.

The go to response to just wack in some speed claiming devices in the suburbs to persuade motorists to wait in queue instead.

If this intersection was on the north side it’d already have a flyover with fancy lighting.
I guess we’ll have to wait for the feds to give us money for all our upgrades.

http://the-riotact.com/curtin-traffic-changes-for-your-consideration/62006

Can you give some examples of these wonderful northside flyovers? I can think of a couple on Gungahlin drive, but by the same token I can think of just as many on the Tuggeranong Parkway.

Roads projects, ignoring Gungahlin for a moment, where are all these northside road projects. And I say ignore Gungahlin, because quite clearly being where the new suburbs are of course you are going to get new roads and the like.

PS Molonoglo is southside too, but I have ignored it for the same reason as Gungahlin above.

So really what I am saying is if you are talking Tuggeranong when you say south and when you talk north you really mean Gungahlin then don’t think you have much to complain about. If you do genuinly mean the northside, eg North Canberra and Belconnen, then I put it to you that your claims of pork barrelling for Labor votes is very much mistaken. The north minus Gungahlin is no better nor no worse than Tuggeranong when it comes to getting roads and new services.

Why discount Gungahlin from this argument, it is as much Northside and in the party electorate as Tuggeranong? Majura Parkway has several large extravagant flyovers, the King’s Highway flyover at Majura/Horse Park Drive, King’s avenue/Morsehead Drive, the one over the footpath at Bowen Place outside the National Gallery and many. many more.
I think Gooterz is talking about the total number of flyovers on major traffic areas, old and new. Planning for the flow of traffic seems to favor Northern suburbs whilst Tuggers gets another roundabout instead. Look at all the major arterial roads in and out of Tuggeranong and none of them have flyovers to help with traffic flow. The busiest ones now have temporary traffic lights instead.
I couldn’t find any data on traffic flows but the experience of simply driving along Athlon, Erindale or Drakeford Drives gives one the impression that flyovers [Majura Parkway, Parkes Way, GDE] definitely reduce the craziness that lights and roundabouts do.

Why discount Gungahlin very simple? Most of this Northside Southside rot is really Tuggeranong Vs Gungahlin not any genuine discussion at north Vs south. And the reason Gungahlin gets more nice new shiny stuff is because it is the growth area of the act. Just like how 15-25 years ago Tuggeranong was and was getting more than say Belco. New investment always logically and quite rightly favours new areas. Fear not south Gungahlin is almost complete so soon Molonglo which is south will see a disproportionate amount of infrastructure spending and the bulk of it is Southside.

But seeing as you have changed the conversation can I point out a couple of pertinent facts? Fact one the city which is where most main roads lead is Northside. So of course the roads leading to and getting closer to the city will be better and have grade separated intersections. All the roads you mention essentially feed the city.

But, and including Gungahlin here in the actual town centres I struggle to think of any grade separated intersections anywhere. So don’t see your point. The whole town is the same. Roundabouts and traffic lights to get to a main road then grade seperate to the city.

As for Majura road it is not just for Gungahlin it is also a very helpful road for Tuggeranong, Woden and inner south people too. It allows an easier path to get to the federal highway without going town the Tuggeranong parkway and Barton highway or going up Northborne ave. And as dungers always points out all the heavy vehicles servicing Hume and Fyshwick both of why are Southside.

“And as dungers always points out all the heavy vehicles servicing Hume and Fyshwick both of why are Southside.”
I don’t recall that so stop verballing me.

No_Nose said :

dungfungus said :

gooterz said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

gooterz said :

dungfungus said :

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. The issue is just how much even basic maintenance and repairs have slipped in Tuggeranong and maintenance of the status quo – let alone substantive improvements.

Personally I don’t think maintenance and upkeep is any worse outside of the new areas. New infrastructure yes, but for the obvious reasons . And I live in West Belconnen… An area that seems to have a lot of people complaining what about me and I sit there scratching my head asking what more do you want?

Even new parts of down south are done poorly. The roads are far less quality than their northern counterparts. There are many more flyovers up north for less people than down south. Its simply that money only sees the voters that vote Labor.

Its taken until 2016 to get lights and fencing on the parkway, however that’s fully funded from the feds.
Majura parkway helps the south siders head out of town.

Last major work around Tuggeranong was the part duplication of Athlon drive 7 years ago. The roads between Sulwood drive and Drakeford drive didn’t get the duplication but got a speed (average) camera that’s useless.

There seems to be a major accident on this route every 6 months.

The south intersection of Drakeford and Athlon drive seems like a hatchet job of crazy.
You can’t see oncoming traffic because there’s a pile of roundabout in the way. There needs to be lights to control traffic to the round about and you end up with lots of traffic rat running around the whole area.

The go to response to just wack in some speed claiming devices in the suburbs to persuade motorists to wait in queue instead.

If this intersection was on the north side it’d already have a flyover with fancy lighting.
I guess we’ll have to wait for the feds to give us money for all our upgrades.

http://the-riotact.com/curtin-traffic-changes-for-your-consideration/62006

Can you give some examples of these wonderful northside flyovers? I can think of a couple on Gungahlin drive, but by the same token I can think of just as many on the Tuggeranong Parkway.

Roads projects, ignoring Gungahlin for a moment, where are all these northside road projects. And I say ignore Gungahlin, because quite clearly being where the new suburbs are of course you are going to get new roads and the like.

PS Molonoglo is southside too, but I have ignored it for the same reason as Gungahlin above.

So really what I am saying is if you are talking Tuggeranong when you say south and when you talk north you really mean Gungahlin then don’t think you have much to complain about. If you do genuinly mean the northside, eg North Canberra and Belconnen, then I put it to you that your claims of pork barrelling for Labor votes is very much mistaken. The north minus Gungahlin is no better nor no worse than Tuggeranong when it comes to getting roads and new services.

With the rapidly growing Muslim population in Canberra, the term “pork” barrelling will have to be changed soon or they will be offended.

I hear they are going to build a mosque and a church across the road from your place Guess you won’t complain about the church but will complain about traffic and noise from the mosque?

dungfungus said :

gooterz said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

gooterz said :

dungfungus said :

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. The issue is just how much even basic maintenance and repairs have slipped in Tuggeranong and maintenance of the status quo – let alone substantive improvements.

Personally I don’t think maintenance and upkeep is any worse outside of the new areas. New infrastructure yes, but for the obvious reasons . And I live in West Belconnen… An area that seems to have a lot of people complaining what about me and I sit there scratching my head asking what more do you want?

Even new parts of down south are done poorly. The roads are far less quality than their northern counterparts. There are many more flyovers up north for less people than down south. Its simply that money only sees the voters that vote Labor.

Its taken until 2016 to get lights and fencing on the parkway, however that’s fully funded from the feds.
Majura parkway helps the south siders head out of town.

Last major work around Tuggeranong was the part duplication of Athlon drive 7 years ago. The roads between Sulwood drive and Drakeford drive didn’t get the duplication but got a speed (average) camera that’s useless.

There seems to be a major accident on this route every 6 months.

The south intersection of Drakeford and Athlon drive seems like a hatchet job of crazy.
You can’t see oncoming traffic because there’s a pile of roundabout in the way. There needs to be lights to control traffic to the round about and you end up with lots of traffic rat running around the whole area.

The go to response to just wack in some speed claiming devices in the suburbs to persuade motorists to wait in queue instead.

If this intersection was on the north side it’d already have a flyover with fancy lighting.
I guess we’ll have to wait for the feds to give us money for all our upgrades.

http://the-riotact.com/curtin-traffic-changes-for-your-consideration/62006

Can you give some examples of these wonderful northside flyovers? I can think of a couple on Gungahlin drive, but by the same token I can think of just as many on the Tuggeranong Parkway.

Roads projects, ignoring Gungahlin for a moment, where are all these northside road projects. And I say ignore Gungahlin, because quite clearly being where the new suburbs are of course you are going to get new roads and the like.

PS Molonoglo is southside too, but I have ignored it for the same reason as Gungahlin above.

So really what I am saying is if you are talking Tuggeranong when you say south and when you talk north you really mean Gungahlin then don’t think you have much to complain about. If you do genuinly mean the northside, eg North Canberra and Belconnen, then I put it to you that your claims of pork barrelling for Labor votes is very much mistaken. The north minus Gungahlin is no better nor no worse than Tuggeranong when it comes to getting roads and new services.

Why discount Gungahlin from this argument, it is as much Northside and in the party electorate as Tuggeranong? Majura Parkway has several large extravagant flyovers, the King’s Highway flyover at Majura/Horse Park Drive, King’s avenue/Morsehead Drive, the one over the footpath at Bowen Place outside the National Gallery and many. many more.
I think Gooterz is talking about the total number of flyovers on major traffic areas, old and new. Planning for the flow of traffic seems to favor Northern suburbs whilst Tuggers gets another roundabout instead. Look at all the major arterial roads in and out of Tuggeranong and none of them have flyovers to help with traffic flow. The busiest ones now have temporary traffic lights instead.
I couldn’t find any data on traffic flows but the experience of simply driving along Athlon, Erindale or Drakeford Drives gives one the impression that flyovers [Majura Parkway, Parkes Way, GDE] definitely reduce the craziness that lights and roundabouts do.

Why discount Gungahlin very simple? Most of this Northside Southside rot is really Tuggeranong Vs Gungahlin not any genuine discussion at north Vs south. And the reason Gungahlin gets more nice new shiny stuff is because it is the growth area of the act. Just like how 15-25 years ago Tuggeranong was and was getting more than say Belco. New investment always logically and quite rightly favours new areas. Fear not south Gungahlin is almost complete so soon Molonglo which is south will see a disproportionate amount of infrastructure spending and the bulk of it is Southside.

But seeing as you have changed the conversation can I point out a couple of pertinent facts? Fact one the city which is where most main roads lead is Northside. So of course the roads leading to and getting closer to the city will be better and have grade separated intersections. All the roads you mention essentially feed the city.

But, and including Gungahlin here in the actual town centres I struggle to think of any grade separated intersections anywhere. So don’t see your point. The whole town is the same. Roundabouts and traffic lights to get to a main road then grade seperate to the city.

As for Majura road it is not just for Gungahlin it is also a very helpful road for Tuggeranong, Woden and inner south people too. It allows an easier path to get to the federal highway without going town the Tuggeranong parkway and Barton highway or going up Northborne ave. And as dungers always points out all the heavy vehicles servicing Hume and Fyshwick both of why are Southside.

dungfungus said :

gooterz said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

gooterz said :

dungfungus said :

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. The issue is just how much even basic maintenance and repairs have slipped in Tuggeranong and maintenance of the status quo – let alone substantive improvements.

Personally I don’t think maintenance and upkeep is any worse outside of the new areas. New infrastructure yes, but for the obvious reasons . And I live in West Belconnen… An area that seems to have a lot of people complaining what about me and I sit there scratching my head asking what more do you want?

Even new parts of down south are done poorly. The roads are far less quality than their northern counterparts. There are many more flyovers up north for less people than down south. Its simply that money only sees the voters that vote Labor.

Its taken until 2016 to get lights and fencing on the parkway, however that’s fully funded from the feds.
Majura parkway helps the south siders head out of town.

Last major work around Tuggeranong was the part duplication of Athlon drive 7 years ago. The roads between Sulwood drive and Drakeford drive didn’t get the duplication but got a speed (average) camera that’s useless.

There seems to be a major accident on this route every 6 months.

The south intersection of Drakeford and Athlon drive seems like a hatchet job of crazy.
You can’t see oncoming traffic because there’s a pile of roundabout in the way. There needs to be lights to control traffic to the round about and you end up with lots of traffic rat running around the whole area.

The go to response to just wack in some speed claiming devices in the suburbs to persuade motorists to wait in queue instead.

If this intersection was on the north side it’d already have a flyover with fancy lighting.
I guess we’ll have to wait for the feds to give us money for all our upgrades.

http://the-riotact.com/curtin-traffic-changes-for-your-consideration/62006

Can you give some examples of these wonderful northside flyovers? I can think of a couple on Gungahlin drive, but by the same token I can think of just as many on the Tuggeranong Parkway.

Roads projects, ignoring Gungahlin for a moment, where are all these northside road projects. And I say ignore Gungahlin, because quite clearly being where the new suburbs are of course you are going to get new roads and the like.

PS Molonoglo is southside too, but I have ignored it for the same reason as Gungahlin above.

So really what I am saying is if you are talking Tuggeranong when you say south and when you talk north you really mean Gungahlin then don’t think you have much to complain about. If you do genuinly mean the northside, eg North Canberra and Belconnen, then I put it to you that your claims of pork barrelling for Labor votes is very much mistaken. The north minus Gungahlin is no better nor no worse than Tuggeranong when it comes to getting roads and new services.

Why discount Gungahlin from this argument, it is as much Northside and in the party electorate as Tuggeranong? Majura Parkway has several large extravagant flyovers, the King’s Highway flyover at Majura/Horse Park Drive, King’s avenue/Morsehead Drive, the one over the footpath at Bowen Place outside the National Gallery and many. many more.
I think Gooterz is talking about the total number of flyovers on major traffic areas, old and new. Planning for the flow of traffic seems to favor Northern suburbs whilst Tuggers gets another roundabout instead. Look at all the major arterial roads in and out of Tuggeranong and none of them have flyovers to help with traffic flow. The busiest ones now have temporary traffic lights instead.
I couldn’t find any data on traffic flows but the experience of simply driving along Athlon, Erindale or Drakeford Drives gives one the impression that flyovers [Majura Parkway, Parkes Way, GDE] definitely reduce the craziness that lights and roundabouts do.

dungfungus said :

gooterz said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

gooterz said :

dungfungus said :

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. The issue is just how much even basic maintenance and repairs have slipped in Tuggeranong and maintenance of the status quo – let alone substantive improvements.

Personally I don’t think maintenance and upkeep is any worse outside of the new areas. New infrastructure yes, but for the obvious reasons . And I live in West Belconnen… An area that seems to have a lot of people complaining what about me and I sit there scratching my head asking what more do you want?

Even new parts of down south are done poorly. The roads are far less quality than their northern counterparts. There are many more flyovers up north for less people than down south. Its simply that money only sees the voters that vote Labor.

Its taken until 2016 to get lights and fencing on the parkway, however that’s fully funded from the feds.
Majura parkway helps the south siders head out of town.

Last major work around Tuggeranong was the part duplication of Athlon drive 7 years ago. The roads between Sulwood drive and Drakeford drive didn’t get the duplication but got a speed (average) camera that’s useless.

There seems to be a major accident on this route every 6 months.

The south intersection of Drakeford and Athlon drive seems like a hatchet job of crazy.
You can’t see oncoming traffic because there’s a pile of roundabout in the way. There needs to be lights to control traffic to the round about and you end up with lots of traffic rat running around the whole area.

The go to response to just wack in some speed claiming devices in the suburbs to persuade motorists to wait in queue instead.

If this intersection was on the north side it’d already have a flyover with fancy lighting.
I guess we’ll have to wait for the feds to give us money for all our upgrades.

http://the-riotact.com/curtin-traffic-changes-for-your-consideration/62006

Can you give some examples of these wonderful northside flyovers? I can think of a couple on Gungahlin drive, but by the same token I can think of just as many on the Tuggeranong Parkway.

Roads projects, ignoring Gungahlin for a moment, where are all these northside road projects. And I say ignore Gungahlin, because quite clearly being where the new suburbs are of course you are going to get new roads and the like.

PS Molonoglo is southside too, but I have ignored it for the same reason as Gungahlin above.

So really what I am saying is if you are talking Tuggeranong when you say south and when you talk north you really mean Gungahlin then don’t think you have much to complain about. If you do genuinly mean the northside, eg North Canberra and Belconnen, then I put it to you that your claims of pork barrelling for Labor votes is very much mistaken. The north minus Gungahlin is no better nor no worse than Tuggeranong when it comes to getting roads and new services.

With the rapidly growing Muslim population in Canberra, the term “pork” barrelling will have to be changed soon or they will be offended.

gooterz said :

wildturkeycanoe said :

gooterz said :

dungfungus said :

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. The issue is just how much even basic maintenance and repairs have slipped in Tuggeranong and maintenance of the status quo – let alone substantive improvements.

Personally I don’t think maintenance and upkeep is any worse outside of the new areas. New infrastructure yes, but for the obvious reasons . And I live in West Belconnen… An area that seems to have a lot of people complaining what about me and I sit there scratching my head asking what more do you want?

Even new parts of down south are done poorly. The roads are far less quality than their northern counterparts. There are many more flyovers up north for less people than down south. Its simply that money only sees the voters that vote Labor.

Its taken until 2016 to get lights and fencing on the parkway, however that’s fully funded from the feds.
Majura parkway helps the south siders head out of town.

Last major work around Tuggeranong was the part duplication of Athlon drive 7 years ago. The roads between Sulwood drive and Drakeford drive didn’t get the duplication but got a speed (average) camera that’s useless.

There seems to be a major accident on this route every 6 months.

The south intersection of Drakeford and Athlon drive seems like a hatchet job of crazy.
You can’t see oncoming traffic because there’s a pile of roundabout in the way. There needs to be lights to control traffic to the round about and you end up with lots of traffic rat running around the whole area.

The go to response to just wack in some speed claiming devices in the suburbs to persuade motorists to wait in queue instead.

If this intersection was on the north side it’d already have a flyover with fancy lighting.
I guess we’ll have to wait for the feds to give us money for all our upgrades.

http://the-riotact.com/curtin-traffic-changes-for-your-consideration/62006

Can you give some examples of these wonderful northside flyovers? I can think of a couple on Gungahlin drive, but by the same token I can think of just as many on the Tuggeranong Parkway.

Roads projects, ignoring Gungahlin for a moment, where are all these northside road projects. And I say ignore Gungahlin, because quite clearly being where the new suburbs are of course you are going to get new roads and the like.

PS Molonoglo is southside too, but I have ignored it for the same reason as Gungahlin above.

So really what I am saying is if you are talking Tuggeranong when you say south and when you talk north you really mean Gungahlin then don’t think you have much to complain about. If you do genuinly mean the northside, eg North Canberra and Belconnen, then I put it to you that your claims of pork barrelling for Labor votes is very much mistaken. The north minus Gungahlin is no better nor no worse than Tuggeranong when it comes to getting roads and new services.

wildturkeycanoe said :

gooterz said :

dungfungus said :

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. The issue is just how much even basic maintenance and repairs have slipped in Tuggeranong and maintenance of the status quo – let alone substantive improvements.

Personally I don’t think maintenance and upkeep is any worse outside of the new areas. New infrastructure yes, but for the obvious reasons . And I live in West Belconnen… An area that seems to have a lot of people complaining what about me and I sit there scratching my head asking what more do you want?

Even new parts of down south are done poorly. The roads are far less quality than their northern counterparts. There are many more flyovers up north for less people than down south. Its simply that money only sees the voters that vote Labor.

Its taken until 2016 to get lights and fencing on the parkway, however that’s fully funded from the feds.
Majura parkway helps the south siders head out of town.

Last major work around Tuggeranong was the part duplication of Athlon drive 7 years ago. The roads between Sulwood drive and Drakeford drive didn’t get the duplication but got a speed (average) camera that’s useless.

There seems to be a major accident on this route every 6 months.

The south intersection of Drakeford and Athlon drive seems like a hatchet job of crazy.
You can’t see oncoming traffic because there’s a pile of roundabout in the way. There needs to be lights to control traffic to the round about and you end up with lots of traffic rat running around the whole area.

The go to response to just wack in some speed claiming devices in the suburbs to persuade motorists to wait in queue instead.

If this intersection was on the north side it’d already have a flyover with fancy lighting.
I guess we’ll have to wait for the feds to give us money for all our upgrades.

http://the-riotact.com/curtin-traffic-changes-for-your-consideration/62006

Garfield said :

devils_advocate said :

TuggLife said :

rommeldog56 said :

John Moulis said :

Planed useage is expected to be about 15,000 a day, all of whom are being subsidised to the tune of roughly $1 for every trip.

If the actual fares haven’t yet been worked out, how do u know that the “subsidy” will be roughly $1 pp per trip ???

On what tram “fare” charge per trip do u base that “rough subsidy” ?

That was the subsidy for using the Majura Parkway, not light rail.

But oh my I got my use figures wrong, it is 40,000 vehicles per day (including trucks) by 2030.

$288,000,000 to build.

So on a 20 year cost recovery, just to make a fair comparison to light light rail, each trip costs the best part of $1, well actually 99c.

288m divide by 20=14,400,000 per year.
Divide that by 365=$39452 per day.
Divide by number of vehicles using the road, voila 99c per vehicle.

Cut the cost recovery to 20 years and double that subsidy.

Of course light rail will be much more of a subsidy, but just showing roads are maybe not as cheap as one might otherwise expect.

Neither is food, shelter and clothing but like roads, they are the necessities of life, unlike a tram to nowhere.

Agree roads are necessities of life, though food for thought maybe we don’t need them all, or for them to be built the way they are. And public transport is very much a necessity of life for many too. We could argue what form that is of course. And BTW the tram is not to no where it is being built to service a corridor of high density housing.

At least you concede we need roads.
Your mate rubaiyat reckons we can do without cars.

gooterz said :

dungfungus said :

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. The issue is just how much even basic maintenance and repairs have slipped in Tuggeranong and maintenance of the status quo – let alone substantive improvements.

Personally I don’t think maintenance and upkeep is any worse outside of the new areas. New infrastructure yes, but for the obvious reasons . And I live in West Belconnen… An area that seems to have a lot of people complaining what about me and I sit there scratching my head asking what more do you want?

dungfungus said :

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

I dont think anyone disagrees with that. The issue is just how much even basic maintenance and repairs have slipped in Tuggeranong and maintenance of the status quo – let alone substantive improvements.

Garfield said :

TuggLife said :

That was the subsidy for using the Majura Parkway, not light rail.

But oh my I got my use figures wrong, it is 40,000 vehicles per day (including trucks) by 2030.

$288,000,000 to build.

So on a 20 year cost recovery, just to make a fair comparison to light light rail, each trip costs the best part of $1, well actually 99c.

288m divide by 20=14,400,000 per year.
Divide that by 365=$39452 per day.
Divide by number of vehicles using the road, voila 99c per vehicle.

Cut the cost recovery to 20 years and double that subsidy.

Of course light rail will be much more of a subsidy, but just showing roads are maybe not as cheap as one might otherwise expect.

My bad for confusing Majura Parkway subsidy with Light Rail Subsidy.

In any event, Benefits Costs Ratio (BCR) for Majura Parkway was 1:3.2 (or 1: 4.2 – I can not remember which).

Tram BCR is 1:1.2.

Its blindingly obvious which is the better return to ACT Ratepayers.

Don’t and have never disagreed that Majura road is essential and beneficial.

However the point I am making, that is clearly being lost, is the annual cost of Majura parkway over the construction period is the same as the annual cost of the light rail line. Apparently one will bankrupt us and send us to fiscal damnation for ever more, but the other won’t.

TuggLife said :

That was the subsidy for using the Majura Parkway, not light rail.

But oh my I got my use figures wrong, it is 40,000 vehicles per day (including trucks) by 2030.

$288,000,000 to build.

So on a 20 year cost recovery, just to make a fair comparison to light light rail, each trip costs the best part of $1, well actually 99c.

288m divide by 20=14,400,000 per year.
Divide that by 365=$39452 per day.
Divide by number of vehicles using the road, voila 99c per vehicle.

Cut the cost recovery to 20 years and double that subsidy.

Of course light rail will be much more of a subsidy, but just showing roads are maybe not as cheap as one might otherwise expect.

My bad for confusing Majura Parkway subsidy with Light Rail Subsidy.

In any event, Benefits Costs Ratio (BCR) for Majura Parkway was 1:3.2 (or 1: 4.2 – I can not remember which). Tram BCR is 1:1.2.

Its blindingly obvious which is the better return to ACT Ratepayers.

devils_advocate said :

TuggLife said :

rommeldog56 said :

John Moulis said :

Planed useage is expected to be about 15,000 a day, all of whom are being subsidised to the tune of roughly $1 for every trip.

If the actual fares haven’t yet been worked out, how do u know that the “subsidy” will be roughly $1 pp per trip ???

On what tram “fare” charge per trip do u base that “rough subsidy” ?

That was the subsidy for using the Majura Parkway, not light rail.

But oh my I got my use figures wrong, it is 40,000 vehicles per day (including trucks) by 2030.

$288,000,000 to build.

So on a 20 year cost recovery, just to make a fair comparison to light light rail, each trip costs the best part of $1, well actually 99c.

288m divide by 20=14,400,000 per year.
Divide that by 365=$39452 per day.
Divide by number of vehicles using the road, voila 99c per vehicle.

Cut the cost recovery to 20 years and double that subsidy.

Of course light rail will be much more of a subsidy, but just showing roads are maybe not as cheap as one might otherwise expect.

Neither is food, shelter and clothing but like roads, they are the necessities of life, unlike a tram to nowhere.

Agree roads are necessities of life, though food for thought maybe we don’t need them all, or for them to be built the way they are. And public transport is very much a necessity of life for many too. We could argue what form that is of course. And BTW the tram is not to no where it is being built to service a corridor of high density housing.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Mordd – IndyMedia said :

The reduction in stamp duty and increases in annual rates/levies might be a cunning revenue raising move by the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t, but making existing homeowners pay for their stamp duty again isn’t. Its just legalised theft.

Is this whole thing a curly way to make ratepayers across Canberra pay off the stamp duty not collected from the new property owners buying along the light rail corridor? Stung again by this incompetent government who is hell bent on building their little metropolis east of the GDE and north of Parkes Way, whilst the rest of Canberra becomes derelict, taxed through the nose, left with poor public transport and pitiful representation in the legislative assembly. Could they be stacking the numbers by increasing the density in the North/Central Canberra electorates in order to ensure future victories for the “party”?
Dollars win votes after all and look how little is being spent in the wastelands of Belco, Weston Creek and Tuggers whilst plenty is going up north. The Molonglo suburb additions and the new ones to pop up on the western borders of the ACT in Belconnen, will undoubtedly add to the chaos of all traffic trying to get to Civic, but I can’t see any planning to ease the congestion we already have on Belconnen and Parkes Way. Things are just going to get worse.

Quite clearly getting rid of rates and light rail are two very separate issues. But love the conspiracy theories.

As for Gungahlin getting more than Belco or Tuggers, been answered before it is the growth area so will sap up more new money than established areas. Just as Tuggernaong sap that money in the 80’s and early 90’s, and just as Molonglo is starting to do and as construction in Gungahlin slows it will transfer that way.

And traffic on Belconnen Way and Parkes way, what is your solution? Add an extra lane? Though that said yes traffic on these roads is heavy during the peak hour and a half, but it is hardly earth shattering congestion. And besides the pinch points are mostly where roads join, or where vehicles exit, again no easy fixes. Though maybe the new exit of Parkes Way onto Constitution Ave may help relieve the Coranderrk Street roundabout which is often the cause for traffic to bank back to the tunnel.

TuggLife said :

rommeldog56 said :

John Moulis said :

Planed useage is expected to be about 15,000 a day, all of whom are being subsidised to the tune of roughly $1 for every trip.

If the actual fares haven’t yet been worked out, how do u know that the “subsidy” will be roughly $1 pp per trip ???

On what tram “fare” charge per trip do u base that “rough subsidy” ?

That was the subsidy for using the Majura Parkway, not light rail.

But oh my I got my use figures wrong, it is 40,000 vehicles per day (including trucks) by 2030.

$288,000,000 to build.

So on a 20 year cost recovery, just to make a fair comparison to light light rail, each trip costs the best part of $1, well actually 99c.

288m divide by 20=14,400,000 per year.
Divide that by 365=$39452 per day.
Divide by number of vehicles using the road, voila 99c per vehicle.

Cut the cost recovery to 20 years and double that subsidy.

Of course light rail will be much more of a subsidy, but just showing roads are maybe not as cheap as one might otherwise expect.

Neither is food, shelter and clothing but like roads, they are the necessities of life, unlike a tram to nowhere.

wildturkeycanoe said :

Mordd – IndyMedia said :

The reduction in stamp duty and increases in annual rates/levies might be a cunning revenue raising move by the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t, but making existing homeowners pay for their stamp duty again isn’t. Its just legalised theft.

Is this whole thing a curly way to make ratepayers across Canberra pay off the stamp duty not collected from the new property owners buying along the light rail corridor? Stung again by this incompetent government who is hell bent on building their little metropolis east of the GDE and north of Parkes Way, whilst the rest of Canberra becomes derelict, taxed through the nose, left with poor public transport and pitiful representation in the legislative assembly. Could they be stacking the numbers by increasing the density in the North/Central Canberra electorates in order to ensure future victories for the “party”?
Dollars win votes after all and look how little is being spent in the wastelands of Belco, Weston Creek and Tuggers whilst plenty is going up north. The Molonglo suburb additions and the new ones to pop up on the western borders of the ACT in Belconnen, will undoubtedly add to the chaos of all traffic trying to get to Civic, but I can’t see any planning to ease the congestion we already have on Belconnen and Parkes Way. Things are just going to get worse.

Currently, only 8% of Canberrans use public transport. This figure is shrinking despite attempts by the current government to force the other 92% to abandon their cars with a strategy of eliminating car parks, increasing the cost of the paid parking spaces that remain etc. Building new suburbs without adequate road access is also another tactic in that strategy.
Introducing the tram will not change the ratio of non-public transport users. It will however increase road congestion wherever it goes.
When will the government accept that Canberrans want to use their cars instead of public transport?
We have electric cars to look forward to in a few years so the environmental argument against fossil fuel cars doesn’t wash anymore.
It is easy to identify the roads that need additional capacity and that is where the money should be spent.
PS: If a tram was built to my front door I still wouldn’t use it because the tram wouldn’t take me to where I want to go. How simple is that to understand?

Mordd – IndyMedia said :

…As a self funded retiree, my modest pension increases at no more than CPI…

My partner and I are inthe same boat trying to live in retirement on pensions that only increase by CPI which is currently less than 3%.

Our rates increased last year by 14.3% and because we live in an apartment, it looks like we will be facing a similar or higher rate rise next year.

My vote at this years election will be based on which candidate indicates they are willing to fight for financial management that is affordable and aims to contain cost of living expenses like Rates to CPI increases only.

Mordd – IndyMedia said :

The reduction in stamp duty and increases in annual rates/levies might be a cunning revenue raising move by the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t, but making existing homeowners pay for their stamp duty again isn’t. Its just legalised theft.

Is this whole thing a curly way to make ratepayers across Canberra pay off the stamp duty not collected from the new property owners buying along the light rail corridor? Stung again by this incompetent government who is hell bent on building their little metropolis east of the GDE and north of Parkes Way, whilst the rest of Canberra becomes derelict, taxed through the nose, left with poor public transport and pitiful representation in the legislative assembly. Could they be stacking the numbers by increasing the density in the North/Central Canberra electorates in order to ensure future victories for the “party”?
Dollars win votes after all and look how little is being spent in the wastelands of Belco, Weston Creek and Tuggers whilst plenty is going up north. The Molonglo suburb additions and the new ones to pop up on the western borders of the ACT in Belconnen, will undoubtedly add to the chaos of all traffic trying to get to Civic, but I can’t see any planning to ease the congestion we already have on Belconnen and Parkes Way. Things are just going to get worse.

Skidd Marx said :

John Moulis said :

rommeldog56 said :

watto23 said :

gooterz said :

madelini said :

Will be back to double digit increases next year if Barr and co can con the Canberra voters again. Green social engineering costs big coin and delvers no actual economic benefit, just fantasy left wing ideology.
If by chance the greens and labor get in again, then LR will bankrupt us

As I said in another thread, the way the light rail line is being funded, means the impact on the budget is less than 1%. If 1% is going to bankrupt us then there is something very wrong…

PS food for thought, the Majura Parkway cost the ACT taxpayer the same amount as light rail will cost each year over its 3 year construction period. Of course light rail is over 20 years, but the overall effect on the budget is much the same, roughly $50m per year. And my figure is just the amount the ACT government paid, not the other half paid for by the Federal Government.

But did that 1% budget hit bankrupt us? Think not.

Your comparing chalk with cheese JC. How many people use the Majura Parkway every day?
Also, have you calculated the costs of relocating the Northbourne Avenue underground services and the cost of electrical headworks for the light rail yet?

Planed useage is expected to be about 15,000 a day, all of whom are being subsidised to the tune of roughly $1 for every trip.

As for relocation of services, once you come up with figures for how much it costs to relocate services for road projects I might have a think about light rail.

Even if the that figure of 15,000 people per day will use the Majura Parkway, a lot of freight will also be carried on it. Light rail doesn’t do that.
If you are comparing relocation of underground services for road and rail they would be the same IF the services are already there.
Usually, in greenfield development the roads and services are done at about the same time so it is unlikely that any services will have to be relocated.
In the case of Northbourne Avenue, the services under the central corridor will have to be relocated whether they choose light rail or a busway due to excavations for the rail/road bed.
There was an more appropriate option called very light rail which would have avoided any relocation but it wasn’t considered.
Why won’t you tell us the relocation costs? You obviously know what they are. Why are they and the cost of electrical headworks being kept “off balance sheet”? It appears there will also be some latent costs associated with the Dickson Interchange.
I’ll tell you why. It’s because when they are revealed the cost of the light rail will blow out to over $2 billion.
Please give the the costs so you can say “wrong again, dungers”.

I posted a reply earlier but didn’t seem to come through.

For one I don’t know the answer to your question, so please stop asking me. I do not work for the light rail project or for the ACT government, or a political party. I do however have an interest in local history, public transport and technology.

Re your comments about roads not needing relocation, I call bollocks on that. Take constitution ave for example, the recent upgrade to that required the relocation of a whole heap of communications and power cable under the road. Now who picked up the cost for that?

The same is true for most road upgrades, which are the bulk of the upgrades that you see in budget papers. Many new (greenfield) roads are paid for as part of land development costs so don’t always appear in budget papers.

Likewise upgrades to power network are not normally factored into projects either, again it is assume the power company will make its money back through ongoing use charges. Though in some cases they do charge projects. Just depends what it is. In the case of light rail the substations are in the costs, as these will be owned by the PPP, however not sure if the lead in capital cost is factored into that cost, or if ACTEW will recover the cost through network charges. Either way I don’t think it is the big scare issue you keep making it out to be.

rommeldog56 said :

John Moulis said :

Planed useage is expected to be about 15,000 a day, all of whom are being subsidised to the tune of roughly $1 for every trip.

If the actual fares haven’t yet been worked out, how do u know that the “subsidy” will be roughly $1 pp per trip ???

On what tram “fare” charge per trip do u base that “rough subsidy” ?

That was the subsidy for using the Majura Parkway, not light rail.

But oh my I got my use figures wrong, it is 40,000 vehicles per day (including trucks) by 2030.

$288,000,000 to build.

So on a 20 year cost recovery, just to make a fair comparison to light light rail, each trip costs the best part of $1, well actually 99c.

288m divide by 20=14,400,000 per year.
Divide that by 365=$39452 per day.
Divide by number of vehicles using the road, voila 99c per vehicle.

Cut the cost recovery to 20 years and double that subsidy.

Of course light rail will be much more of a subsidy, but just showing roads are maybe not as cheap as one might otherwise expect.

rommeldog56 said :

John Moulis said :

Planed useage is expected to be about 15,000 a day, all of whom are being subsidised to the tune of roughly $1 for every trip.

If the actual fares haven’t yet been worked out, how do u know that the “subsidy” will be roughly $1 pp per trip ???

On what tram “fare” charge per trip do u base that “rough subsidy” ?

I thought JC was referring to the Majura Expressway, I mean 15,000 people a day on the Gungahlin Rattler? Come on.
Anyhow, JC can’t even tell us the unrevealed costs needed to get the project going.

John Moulis said :

Planed useage is expected to be about 15,000 a day, all of whom are being subsidised to the tune of roughly $1 for every trip.

If the actual fares haven’t yet been worked out, how do u know that the “subsidy” will be roughly $1 pp per trip ??? On what tram “fare” charge per trip do u base that “rough subsidy” ?

John Moulis said :

rommeldog56 said :

watto23 said :

gooterz said :

madelini said :

Will be back to double digit increases next year if Barr and co can con the Canberra voters again. Green social engineering costs big coin and delvers no actual economic benefit, just fantasy left wing ideology.
If by chance the greens and labor get in again, then LR will bankrupt us

As I said in another thread, the way the light rail line is being funded, means the impact on the budget is less than 1%. If 1% is going to bankrupt us then there is something very wrong…

PS food for thought, the Majura Parkway cost the ACT taxpayer the same amount as light rail will cost each year over its 3 year construction period. Of course light rail is over 20 years, but the overall effect on the budget is much the same, roughly $50m per year. And my figure is just the amount the ACT government paid, not the other half paid for by the Federal Government.

But did that 1% budget hit bankrupt us? Think not.

Your comparing chalk with cheese JC. How many people use the Majura Parkway every day?
Also, have you calculated the costs of relocating the Northbourne Avenue underground services and the cost of electrical headworks for the light rail yet?

Planed useage is expected to be about 15,000 a day, all of whom are being subsidised to the tune of roughly $1 for every trip.

As for relocation of services, once you come up with figures for how much it costs to relocate services for road projects I might have a think about light rail.

Even if the that figure of 15,000 people per day will use the Majura Parkway, a lot of freight will also be carried on it. Light rail doesn’t do that.
If you are comparing relocation of underground services for road and rail they would be the same IF the services are already there.
Usually, in greenfield development the roads and services are done at about the same time so it is unlikely that any services will have to be relocated.
In the case of Northbourne Avenue, the services under the central corridor will have to be relocated whether they choose light rail or a busway due to excavations for the rail/road bed.
There was an more appropriate option called very light rail which would have avoided any relocation but it wasn’t considered.
Why won’t you tell us the relocation costs? You obviously know what they are. Why are they and the cost of electrical headworks being kept “off balance sheet”? It appears there will also be some latent costs associated with the Dickson Interchange.
I’ll tell you why. It’s because when they are revealed the cost of the light rail will blow out to over $2 billion.
Please give the the costs so you can say “wrong again, dungers”.

rommeldog56 said :

watto23 said :

gooterz said :

madelini said :

Will be back to double digit increases next year if Barr and co can con the Canberra voters again. Green social engineering costs big coin and delvers no actual economic benefit, just fantasy left wing ideology.
If by chance the greens and labor get in again, then LR will bankrupt us

As I said in another thread, the way the light rail line is being funded, means the impact on the budget is less than 1%. If 1% is going to bankrupt us then there is something very wrong…

PS food for thought, the Majura Parkway cost the ACT taxpayer the same amount as light rail will cost each year over its 3 year construction period. Of course light rail is over 20 years, but the overall effect on the budget is much the same, roughly $50m per year. And my figure is just the amount the ACT government paid, not the other half paid for by the Federal Government.

But did that 1% budget hit bankrupt us? Think not.

Your comparing chalk with cheese JC. How many people use the Majura Parkway every day?
Also, have you calculated the costs of relocating the Northbourne Avenue underground services and the cost of electrical headworks for the light rail yet?

Planed useage is expected to be about 15,000 a day, all of whom are being subsidised to the tune of roughly $1 for every trip.

As for relocation of services, once you come up with figures for how much it costs to relocate services for road projects I might have a think about light rail.

RiotFrog said :

TracyS said :

watto23 said :

PS food for thought, the Majura Parkway cost the ACT taxpayer the same amount as light rail will cost each year over its 3 year construction period. Of course light rail is over 20 years, but the overall effect on the budget is much the same, roughly $50m per year. And my figure is just the amount the ACT government paid, not the other half paid for by the Federal Government.

But did that 1% budget hit bankrupt us? Think not.

The Majura Parkway doesn’t cost $64 million dollars in operational expenditure every year…

Also, you can do 100km/h on the Majura Parkway. In other words, the Majura Parkway is actually useful.

Agree it is useful, unlike someone else here who supports light rail I am not anti road per se.

But the question/statement was about fiscal impact. Apparently light rail at $64m over 20 years will bankrupt us, despite being 1% of total ACT government expenditure in todays terms (but will reduce over time as a %). But the same cost per year for a road is all a-ok.

TracyS said :

watto23 said :

PS food for thought, the Majura Parkway cost the ACT taxpayer the same amount as light rail will cost each year over its 3 year construction period. Of course light rail is over 20 years, but the overall effect on the budget is much the same, roughly $50m per year. And my figure is just the amount the ACT government paid, not the other half paid for by the Federal Government.

But did that 1% budget hit bankrupt us? Think not.

The Majura Parkway doesn’t cost $64 million dollars in operational expenditure every year…

It’s also far more sensible and predictable to commit 3 years of $50m funding to a project than 20 years.

TracyS said :

watto23 said :

PS food for thought, the Majura Parkway cost the ACT taxpayer the same amount as light rail will cost each year over its 3 year construction period. Of course light rail is over 20 years, but the overall effect on the budget is much the same, roughly $50m per year. And my figure is just the amount the ACT government paid, not the other half paid for by the Federal Government.

But did that 1% budget hit bankrupt us? Think not.

The Majura Parkway doesn’t cost $64 million dollars in operational expenditure every year…

True, but the post I was responding to was carrying on about what a financial disaster it (light rail is) and how it will bankrupt the Territory. Just putting some perspective into it. The Majura Parkway didn’t bankrupt the place did it? And the light rail is roughly the same cost per year, yes over 20 and it won’t either.

Happy to argue the merits or the need for light rail, but outrageous ill-informed comments about bankruptcy and the like certainly don’t help the anti argument.

TracyS said :

watto23 said :

PS food for thought, the Majura Parkway cost the ACT taxpayer the same amount as light rail will cost each year over its 3 year construction period. Of course light rail is over 20 years, but the overall effect on the budget is much the same, roughly $50m per year. And my figure is just the amount the ACT government paid, not the other half paid for by the Federal Government.

But did that 1% budget hit bankrupt us? Think not.

The Majura Parkway doesn’t cost $64 million dollars in operational expenditure every year…

Also, you can do 100km/h on the Majura Parkway. In other words, the Majura Parkway is actually useful.

watto23 said :

gooterz said :

madelini said :

Will be back to double digit increases next year if Barr and co can con the Canberra voters again. Green social engineering costs big coin and delvers no actual economic benefit, just fantasy left wing ideology.
If by chance the greens and labor get in again, then LR will bankrupt us

As I said in another thread, the way the light rail line is being funded, means the impact on the budget is less than 1%. If 1% is going to bankrupt us then there is something very wrong…

PS food for thought, the Majura Parkway cost the ACT taxpayer the same amount as light rail will cost each year over its 3 year construction period. Of course light rail is over 20 years, but the overall effect on the budget is much the same, roughly $50m per year. And my figure is just the amount the ACT government paid, not the other half paid for by the Federal Government.

But did that 1% budget hit bankrupt us? Think not.

Your comparing chalk with cheese JC. How many people use the Majura Parkway every day?
Also, have you calculated the costs of relocating the Northbourne Avenue underground services and the cost of electrical headworks for the light rail yet?

watto23 said :

PS food for thought, the Majura Parkway cost the ACT taxpayer the same amount as light rail will cost each year over its 3 year construction period. Of course light rail is over 20 years, but the overall effect on the budget is much the same, roughly $50m per year. And my figure is just the amount the ACT government paid, not the other half paid for by the Federal Government.

But did that 1% budget hit bankrupt us? Think not.

The Majura Parkway doesn’t cost $64 million dollars in operational expenditure every year…

gooterz said :

madelini said :

Will be back to double digit increases next year if Barr and co can con the Canberra voters again. Green social engineering costs big coin and delvers no actual economic benefit, just fantasy left wing ideology.
If by chance the greens and labor get in again, then LR will bankrupt us

As I said in another thread, the way the light rail line is being funded, means the impact on the budget is less than 1%. If 1% is going to bankrupt us then there is something very wrong…

PS food for thought, the Majura Parkway cost the ACT taxpayer the same amount as light rail will cost each year over its 3 year construction period. Of course light rail is over 20 years, but the overall effect on the budget is much the same, roughly $50m per year. And my figure is just the amount the ACT government paid, not the other half paid for by the Federal Government.

But did that 1% budget hit bankrupt us? Think not.

madelini said :

Will be back to double digit increases next year if Barr and co can con the Canberra voters again. Green social engineering costs big coin and delvers no actual economic benefit, just fantasy left wing ideology.
If by chance the greens and labor get in again, then LR will bankrupt us

As I said in another thread, the way the light rail line is being funded, means the impact on the budget is less than 1%. If 1% is going to bankrupt us then there is something very wrong…

mapinact said :

Loviatar said :

Masquara said :

The table on page 227 of 2016/17 Budget Paper 3 shows an estimated increased of 35% in Residential General Rates revenue between 2015/16 and 2019/20 – the relatively low increase in this election year is, no doubt, entirely coincidental.

By 2019/20 revenue from Residential Conveyances is still estimated to be nearly $213m. – so eliminating that, as promised by the Government when it began “tax reform”, would require a further 57% increase in Residential General Rates, in addition to the annual indexation increases based on the Wage Prixe Index.

I wonder if ACT Voters/Ratepayers will ever get sick and tired of being in such a cynical way re Rates. Its almost the ultimate insult. Nah, of course they won’t.

They are just so rusted on Labor here that this ACT labor/Greens Gov’t knows that it can get away with anything nowday’s.

Even though I am what you may call rusted on, in all fairness what do you reckon the Libs would do differently? And no clap trap about lightrail, whilst a big headline figure, the annual figure is not that substantial in the overall budget context.

I trust there will be a reasonably clear answer to that question in the near future (tomorrow?), but the most likely option would be stop the process of phasing out conveyancing duties and revert to increasing rates by an index based on wage or general cost increases. Until yesterday, the Barr Government could have attacked that on the grounds of policy purity, but that will now be a somewhat more difficult case to make, with the Government talking about a “medium term aim of having the lowest rates (of conveyancing duties) in Australia” (Budget Paper 3, page 251) – i.e. the duties may be abolished, but then again they may not be for many, many years to come, if ever – so a hitherto clear point of difference with the Liberals becomes somewhat less clear, and it all starts to look more like a revenue gouge dressed up as economic reform.

Beyond the details, and the pros and cons of this policy debate, this could also be seen as another instance of a Government which gets (what it thinks) is a big, bright idea and charges ahead with it, ignoring contrary views and inconvenient details, until reality bites.

Will be back to double digit increases next year if Barr and co can con the Canberra voters again. Green social engineering costs big coin and delvers no actual economic benefit, just fantasy left wing ideology.
If by chance the greens and labor get in again, then LR will bankrupt us

Andrew Barr had the hide to claim on radio this afternoon that a reduction in stamp duty and payroll tax evens up the rates rises and means Canberra house owners aren’t disadvantaged. What tosh! Canberrans move house once every 12 years or so on average. So the stamp duty reduction benefit should be divided by 12. While the 4.5 per cent rates rise applies every year. A smug and lazy government.

Andrew Barr is the poster boy for “out of touch”. It’s laughable.

switch said :

tooltime said :

The one truly good economic policy that Labor had of removing stamp duties seems to have now been squibed into the never never.

They can’t even stick with their good decisions for more than a year or two.

No, you have got that wrong. The program of stamp duty reduction continues this year. From the Canberra Times yesterday:

“This year’s cuts to stamp duty take effect immediately, and will mean someone buying a $500,000 house will from Wednesday pay about $13,500 in stamp duty to the government, $1100 less than the same buyer would have paid a day earlier. Over the coming five years, the amount will continue to fall modestly, to $10,000 in 2021-22.

A buyer of a $1 million house pays $42,200 in stamp duty from Wednesday and $33,500 in stamp duty in five years.

There is better news for people buying commercial property worth less than $1.5 million, whose stamp duty will be halved in 2017-18 and abolished altogether a year later.”

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/act-budget-2016-andrew-barr-offers-home-owners-rates-breather-in-election-year-20160607-gpdhj9.html

The “program” continues but at a slower pace, which means it’s highly likely it will never be completed.

We were already talking about a reform that they were going to phase in over a 20 year time frame. For a government that has a 4 year term, that’s already an eternity, now even longer.

What’s the bet that this extention becomes even longer? What’s the bet that they lose government at some stage and the changes are stopped or reversed in the need for easy revenue?

They’ve backed down here simply to placate voters in an election year. It’s a horrible decision.

mapinact said :

Loviatar said :

Masquara said :

The table on page 227 of 2016/17 Budget Paper 3 shows an estimated increased of 35% in Residential General Rates revenue between 2015/16 and 2019/20 – the relatively low increase in this election year is, no doubt, entirely coincidental.

By 2019/20 revenue from Residential Conveyances is still estimated to be nearly $213m. – so eliminating that, as promised by the Government when it began “tax reform”, would require a further 57% increase in Residential General Rates, in addition to the annual indexation increases based on the Wage Prixe Index.

I wonder if ACT Voters/Ratepayers will ever get sick and tired of being in such a cynical way re Rates. Its almost the ultimate insult. Nah, of course they won’t.

They are just so rusted on Labor here that this ACT labor/Greens Gov’t knows that it can get away with anything nowday’s.

Even though I am what you may call rusted on, in all fairness what do you reckon the Libs would do differently? And no clap trap about lightrail, whilst a big headline figure, the annual figure is not that substantial in the overall budget context.

The libs are more likely to govern for the territory as a whole, rather than their small inner north fanbase. They are also more likely to understand that you can’t tax your way to prosperity; in order to generate tax revenue, you have to allow people to actually engage in businesses that generate the underlying income in the first place. Taxing the bejeesus out of everyone each time they set foot outside their front door is not the way to do that.

Masquara said :

The table on page 227 of 2016/17 Budget Paper 3 shows an estimated increased of 35% in Residential General Rates revenue between 2015/16 and 2019/20 – the relatively low increase in this election year is, no doubt, entirely coincidental.

By 2019/20 revenue from Residential Conveyances is still estimated to be nearly $213m. – so eliminating that, as promised by the Government when it began “tax reform”, would require a further 57% increase in Residential General Rates, in addition to the annual indexation increases based on the Wage Prixe Index.

No doubt there would be some growth in rates revenue resulting from the growth in the number of blocks of land on which rates are charged.

However, as a ratepayer, I am definitely not “relieved” about a 4.5 per cent increase.

This is a huge cost impost given that we are currently paying both stamp duty and rates. It’s also regressive because the cost of providing services to more ‘valuable’ blocks is not directly proportional to the rates valuation of the block; and while some owners of more valuable blocks are indeed likely to be more wealthy, there would be others who pay the punitive rates (and rate rises) just because they’ve been living on their quarter acre block in the boondocks for decades and it’s now become inner city.

tooltime said :

The one truly good economic policy that Labor had of removing stamp duties seems to have now been squibed into the never never.

They can’t even stick with their good decisions for more than a year or two.

No, you have got that wrong. The program of stamp duty reduction continues this year. From the Canberra Times yesterday:

“This year’s cuts to stamp duty take effect immediately, and will mean someone buying a $500,000 house will from Wednesday pay about $13,500 in stamp duty to the government, $1100 less than the same buyer would have paid a day earlier. Over the coming five years, the amount will continue to fall modestly, to $10,000 in 2021-22.

A buyer of a $1 million house pays $42,200 in stamp duty from Wednesday and $33,500 in stamp duty in five years.

There is better news for people buying commercial property worth less than $1.5 million, whose stamp duty will be halved in 2017-18 and abolished altogether a year later.”

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/act-budget-2016-andrew-barr-offers-home-owners-rates-breather-in-election-year-20160607-gpdhj9.html

The fact that you can’t see past short term self interest doesn’t make it a bad decision.

Every objective view of the economics and the overall effect of getting rid of stamp duty shows its the right thing to do. This change in tack is the poor effort to pander to the usual populist over substance politics that we’ve become all too familiar with.

Its far, far more than the “short sighted self interest” claim that u use to justify objections. Its long term – for 20+ years.

As a self funded retiree, my modest pension increases at no more than CPI – probably a bit less actually. When I purchased my house, 4 years ago, I paid the full Stamp Duty (as that was before this new scheme of 10% avg. Rate increases pa for 20+ years was even flagged).

Now, the avg. 10%pa increases in Annual Rates + these new “levies” far, far, far exceeds my pension CPI based increases – and that’s with out all the other ACT Gov’t charges that increase annually too, like car rego & parking fees.

So yeah – self interest, but certainly not “short sighted as you claim.

The reduction in stamp duty and increases in annual rates/levies might be a cunning revenue raising move by the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t, but making existing homeowners pay for their stamp duty again isn’t. Its just legalised theft.

Madders said :

tooltime said :

The one truly good economic policy that Labor had of removing stamp duties seems to have now been squibed into the never never.

They can’t even stick with their good decisions for more than a year or two.

Thats because it wasn’t a “good decision”. They have done this because (a) It’s an election year and they know ACT Ratepayers/voters are gullible and easily bribed, and (b) they know that the claim by ACT Labor/Greens that the avg.10%pa for 20+ years of rises in Annual Rates would be “Revenue Neutral” with the reduction in Stamp Duties is incorrect. Its bollocks. They Lied. Maybe a minor attack of the guilts.

The fact that you can’t see past short term self interest doesn’t make it a bad decision.

Every objective view of the economics and the overall effect of getting rid of stamp duty shows its the right thing to do. This change in tack is the poor effort to pander to the usual populist over substance politics that we’ve become all too familiar with.

tooltime said :

The one truly good economic policy that Labor had of removing stamp duties seems to have now been squibed into the never never.

They can’t even stick with their good decisions for more than a year or two.

Thats because it wasn’t a “good decision”. They have done this because (a) It’s an election year and they know ACT Ratepayers/voters are gullible and easily bribed, and (b) they know that the claim by ACT Labor/Greens that the avg.10%pa for 20+ years of rises in Annual Rates would be “Revenue Neutral” with the reduction in Stamp Duties is incorrect. Its bollocks. They Lied. Maybe a minor attack of the guilts.

The one truly good economic policy that Labor had of removing stamp duties seems to have now been squibed into the never never.

They can’t even stick with their good decisions for more than a year or two.

Loviatar said :

Masquara said :

The table on page 227 of 2016/17 Budget Paper 3 shows an estimated increased of 35% in Residential General Rates revenue between 2015/16 and 2019/20 – the relatively low increase in this election year is, no doubt, entirely coincidental.

By 2019/20 revenue from Residential Conveyances is still estimated to be nearly $213m. – so eliminating that, as promised by the Government when it began “tax reform”, would require a further 57% increase in Residential General Rates, in addition to the annual indexation increases based on the Wage Prixe Index.

I wonder if ACT Voters/Ratepayers will ever get sick and tired of being in such a cynical way re Rates. Its almost the ultimate insult. Nah, of course they won’t.

They are just so rusted on Labor here that this ACT labor/Greens Gov’t knows that it can get away with anything nowday’s.

Even though I am what you may call rusted on, in all fairness what do you reckon the Libs would do differently? And no clap trap about lightrail, whilst a big headline figure, the annual figure is not that substantial in the overall budget context.

Andrew Barr had the hide to claim on radio this afternoon that a reduction in stamp duty and payroll tax evens up the rates rises and means Canberra house owners aren’t disadvantaged. What tosh! Canberrans move house once every 12 years or so on average. So the stamp duty reduction benefit should be divided by 12. While the 4.5 per cent rates rise applies every year. A smug and lazy government.

Masquara said :

The table on page 227 of 2016/17 Budget Paper 3 shows an estimated increased of 35% in Residential General Rates revenue between 2015/16 and 2019/20 – the relatively low increase in this election year is, no doubt, entirely coincidental.

By 2019/20 revenue from Residential Conveyances is still estimated to be nearly $213m. – so eliminating that, as promised by the Government when it began “tax reform”, would require a further 57% increase in Residential General Rates, in addition to the annual indexation increases based on the Wage Prixe Index.

I wonder if ACT Voters/Ratepayers will ever get sick and tired of being in such a cynical way re Rates. Its almost the ultimate insult. Nah, of course they won’t. They are just so rusted on Labor here that this ACT labor/Greens Gov’t knows that it can get away with anything nowday’s.

Rates bad. Levies good.

The table on page 227 of 2016/17 Budget Paper 3 shows an estimated increased of 35% in Residential General Rates revenue between 2015/16 and 2019/20 – the relatively low increase in this election year is, no doubt, entirely coincidental.

By 2019/20 revenue from Residential Conveyances is still estimated to be nearly $213m. – so eliminating that, as promised by the Government when it began “tax reform”, would require a further 57% increase in Residential General Rates, in addition to the annual indexation increases based on the Wage Prixe Index.