Belconnen Way fatality

Masquara said :

Sad that it was only at post 26 that anyone expressed sadness for the death – looks likely to be the driver’s partner who was killed. Condolences to the family.

In case you haven’t noticed, it tends to be what is not in contention that isn’t written on forums. I doubt anyone on here doesn’t feel sad for the loss of the person.

Sad that it was only at post 26 that anyone expressed sadness for the death – looks likely to be the driver’s partner who was killed. Condolences to the family.

shirty_bear said :

I would say yes, and I would speculate a few reasons,

a] road/driving conditions have deteriorated dramatically
– omnipresent roadworks making no apparent progress
– traffic lights breeding like rabbits, operating almost entirely out of sync
– lots more cars on the roads

All these things add up to the average driver being more frustrated, less relaxed and tolerant. And non-average drivers doing outrageous things.

b] driver standards falling … maybe even plummeting
– ACT licencing outsourced to paid instructors for “competency-based” evaluations. No need for young drivers to master skills; they can fluke it once and get a tick. Reverse parking is fast becoming a lost art.
– immigrants that have gained licences in countries with standards very different to ours having those licences automatically recognised/transferred. At the risk of being branded racist, Asian and African drivers are WAY over-represented among the ranks of those you observe that clearly have little idea how to pilot their vehicle.

I am not going to call you a racist, BUT clearly you do not realise that there is a small list of countries that can change their foreign licence without starting from L’s. Basically the countries are all the EU member countries (some you need to be over 25), plus the US, Switzerland, Canada, NZ, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan*, South Korea*, Hong Kong SAR* and South Africa*. All the star countries are over 25 only.

So a few first world Asian countries, one African country and most of Europe. Methinks your theory needs a bit of a rework.

Other than that agree with the sentiment though.

not 40 minutes ago, small blue hatchback goes through red on Coulter Drive crossing Belconnen Way, WELL after the light turns red just as cross traffic starts – inattention? Stupidity? who knows. Shame is they may take someone else out of the gene pool with them

I live in Macgregor said :

johnboy said :

The good drivers have all moved over to riding bicycles.

There is a lot to be said for encouraging more car drivers to occassionally take to two wheels to improve their driving habits. Cycling gives you a unique perspective sometimes. IMHO cyclists are usually more considerate and more energy efficient (i.e. logically applying brakes and accelerator when driving to minimise energy waste). Sure there are a few arrogant cyclists (just like there are arrogant motorists) but in my experience the majority respect their own and other people’s safety better than the average car driver, probably because they are much more vulnerable than the average car driver.

I have always said that every driver would be better if you were forced to hold a motorbike license for a year before being able to get your car license.

Cycling not so much.

FarrerGirl said :

stormboy said :

It’s a big intersection but basically safe. It probably carries 10’s of thousands of cars every day.

Everyone seems very quick to assign blame to reckless red light running but sometimes people make simple little mistakes with massive consequenses.

My sympathies to all involved. Condolences to NetSpeed and your family @#16

Well said – as I get older and wiser, I am beginning to realise that we are not always 100% focused when we drive and mistakes do happen to everyone – we are but human. There really are a lot of people I come across who seem to forget this, and make statement’s like “I would never do that” or “I am a much better driver than 99% of the population”. There will always be that small % that are repeat bad driving offenders and should not be on the road, however research from SA has shown that a lot of car accidents are made by drivers making unintentional mistakes – see http://thinkers.sa.gov.au/wegmanflipbook/index.html – I love the statement “we (road engineers) have an ethical obligation to create an environment where people are not punished by death and injury for their mistakes”.

I couldn’t agree more with this. As long as cars are driven by people, and not computers, there will always be the possibility of the driver making a mistake. These mistakes aren’t necessarily a result of bad drivers or bad training. Sometimes it’s just bad luck that a momentary lapse has dire consquences.

Way back, when I was still young and stupid, I had a (very) near miss because I made a mistake. I came as close as I think I’ve ever been to getting perished. It’s amazing how having ones life flash before your eyes can change your perspective on things. It was, however, a better driver because of it.

I’m sure that many other drivers have their own “there but for the grace of God go I” type stories as well, and that they are now better drivers for it.

Alderney said :

…I have to agree though with red light running in Canberra being at epidemic proportions. I think it’s the most dangerous thing one can do whilst behind the wheel of a motor vehicle…

I’d rate inattention a bit higher to be honest, which may well result in red light running.

johnboy said :

The good drivers have all moved over to riding bicycles.

There is a lot to be said for encouraging more car drivers to occassionally take to two wheels to improve their driving habits. Cycling gives you a unique perspective sometimes. IMHO cyclists are usually more considerate and more energy efficient (i.e. logically applying brakes and accelerator when driving to minimise energy waste). Sure there are a few arrogant cyclists (just like there are arrogant motorists) but in my experience the majority respect their own and other people’s safety better than the average car driver, probably because they are much more vulnerable than the average car driver.

shirty_bear said :

SigmaOctantis said :

Which leads me to a general question, does anyone else think that the standard of driving in Canberra has significantly deteriorated over the past few years?

I would say yes, and I would speculate a few reasons,

a] road/driving conditions have deteriorated dramatically
– omnipresent roadworks making no apparent progress
– traffic lights breeding like rabbits, operating almost entirely out of sync
– lots more cars on the roads

All these things add up to the average driver being more frustrated, less relaxed and tolerant. And non-average drivers doing outrageous things.

b] driver standards falling … maybe even plummeting
– ACT licencing outsourced to paid instructors for “competency-based” evaluations. No need for young drivers to master skills; they can fluke it once and get a tick. Reverse parking is fast becoming a lost art.
– immigrants that have gained licences in countries with standards very different to ours having those licences automatically recognised/transferred. At the risk of being branded racist, Asian and African drivers are WAY over-represented among the ranks of those you observe that clearly have little idea how to pilot their vehicle.

tl;dr

Blame it on Gen Y. 😛

SigmaOctantis said :

Which leads me to a general question, does anyone else think that the standard of driving in Canberra has significantly deteriorated over the past few years?

I would say yes, and I would speculate a few reasons,

a] road/driving conditions have deteriorated dramatically
– omnipresent roadworks making no apparent progress
– traffic lights breeding like rabbits, operating almost entirely out of sync
– lots more cars on the roads

All these things add up to the average driver being more frustrated, less relaxed and tolerant. And non-average drivers doing outrageous things.

b] driver standards falling … maybe even plummeting
– ACT licencing outsourced to paid instructors for “competency-based” evaluations. No need for young drivers to master skills; they can fluke it once and get a tick. Reverse parking is fast becoming a lost art.
– immigrants that have gained licences in countries with standards very different to ours having those licences automatically recognised/transferred. At the risk of being branded racist, Asian and African drivers are WAY over-represented among the ranks of those you observe that clearly have little idea how to pilot their vehicle.

SigmaOctantis said :

only to return in 2009.

As soon as I got back I noticed how bad the driving was

Kevin 07 km/H!

SigmaOctantis said :

Hi Everybody.
Dreadful news about the poor old bloke wiped out by (presumably) a red light runner. It certainly is a habit that has ‘gone viral’ over the last year or so in our fair city.

Which leads me to a general question, does anyone else think that the standard of driving in Canberra has significantly deteriorated over the past few years? I first moved here in 2001 and left again in 2005 (overseas) only to return in 2009.

As soon as I got back I noticed how bad the driving was, from 2001-2005 I would have said quite happily that canberra drivers were among the best in the country, considerate and well mannered (at least I thought it was). Since moving back in 2009 the standard of driving had gotten far worse, and its a rush to the bottom since then with tailgaiting, red-light-running, bird-flipping, mouthing off and generally inconsiderate arrogant behaviour all around (particularly from young women). Even on the streets people are now quite unfriendly and arrogant in Canberra.

Does anyone else think this is a new thing? If so, why? Is it the product of having an incompetent caretaker Government with its policies of entitlement? Gillard could explain the massive shift in the behaviour of women. Is it because people in Canberra are vastly overpaid and underworked? It is an interesting observation of human behaviour!

You think that people are driving badly because of the gummint?

I honestly thought I’d heard it all … but you’ve opened a completely new frontier of stupidity and partisanship (or trolling).

Either way, well done.

stormboy said :

It’s a big intersection but basically safe. It probably carries 10’s of thousands of cars every day.

Everyone seems very quick to assign blame to reckless red light running but sometimes people make simple little mistakes with massive consequenses.

My sympathies to all involved. Condolences to NetSpeed and your family @#16

Well said – as I get older and wiser, I am beginning to realise that we are not always 100% focused when we drive and mistakes do happen to everyone – we are but human. There really are a lot of people I come across who seem to forget this, and make statement’s like “I would never do that” or “I am a much better driver than 99% of the population”. There will always be that small % that are repeat bad driving offenders and should not be on the road, however research from SA has shown that a lot of car accidents are made by drivers making unintentional mistakes – see http://thinkers.sa.gov.au/wegmanflipbook/index.html – I love the statement “we (road engineers) have an ethical obligation to create an environment where people are not punished by death and injury for their mistakes”.

SigmaOctantis said :

Hi Everybody.
Dreadful news about the poor old bloke wiped out by (presumably) a red light runner. It certainly is a habit that has ‘gone viral’ over the last year or so in our fair city.

Which leads me to a general question, does anyone else think that the standard of driving in Canberra has significantly deteriorated over the past few years? I first moved here in 2001 and left again in 2005 (overseas) only to return in 2009.

As soon as I got back I noticed how bad the driving was, from 2001-2005 I would have said quite happily that canberra drivers were among the best in the country, considerate and well mannered (at least I thought it was). Since moving back in 2009 the standard of driving had gotten far worse, and its a rush to the bottom since then with tailgaiting, red-light-running, bird-flipping, mouthing off and generally inconsiderate arrogant behaviour all around (particularly from young women). Even on the streets people are now quite unfriendly and arrogant in Canberra.

Does anyone else think this is a new thing? If so, why? Is it the product of having an incompetent caretaker Government with its policies of entitlement? Gillard could explain the massive shift in the behaviour of women. Is it because people in Canberra are vastly overpaid and underworked? It is an interesting observation of human behaviour!

Yeah – noticeably.

Four things really stand out to me as relatively recent: the number of idiots who do a left flick before turning right (or vice versa), causing drivers to their left (or right) to swerve to avoid a collision; cutting corners; mobile phone usage; and speeding, aggressive and impatient young women (moreso than young men in my experience).

Hi Everybody.
Dreadful news about the poor old bloke wiped out by (presumably) a red light runner. It certainly is a habit that has ‘gone viral’ over the last year or so in our fair city.

Which leads me to a general question, does anyone else think that the standard of driving in Canberra has significantly deteriorated over the past few years? I first moved here in 2001 and left again in 2005 (overseas) only to return in 2009.

As soon as I got back I noticed how bad the driving was, from 2001-2005 I would have said quite happily that canberra drivers were among the best in the country, considerate and well mannered (at least I thought it was). Since moving back in 2009 the standard of driving had gotten far worse, and its a rush to the bottom since then with tailgaiting, red-light-running, bird-flipping, mouthing off and generally inconsiderate arrogant behaviour all around (particularly from young women). Even on the streets people are now quite unfriendly and arrogant in Canberra.

Does anyone else think this is a new thing? If so, why? Is it the product of having an incompetent caretaker Government with its policies of entitlement? Gillard could explain the massive shift in the behaviour of women. Is it because people in Canberra are vastly overpaid and underworked? It is an interesting observation of human behaviour!

It’s a big intersection but basically safe. It probably carries 10’s of thousands of cars every day.

Everyone seems very quick to assign blame to reckless red light running but sometimes people make simple little mistakes with massive consequenses.

My sympathies to all involved. Condolences to NetSpeed and your family @#16

One of the issues with that intersection is that it’s so big, and the turning arcs are so wide, that drivers barely need to slow down to turn across it. Driving through it towards Belconnen, I regularly see cars turning from Belconnen Way onto the GDE towards Tuggeranong running the red, and they’d be doing 70-80km/h, if not faster.

So nobody really slows down when approaching the lights. This means that when the light turns orange, they’re going too fast to stop.

If red light cameras at that intersection achieved nothing more than making approach the intersection with more caution, they’d be worthwhile.

DrKoresh said :

patrick_keogh said :

Which of the drivers was wearing lycra? They must be at fault.

Poor taste, Patrick, and not even funny.

I wouldve hesitated.

But no surprises that a lycra blaming troll called you out.

IrishPete said :

I went through this junction this evening, went through an orange light, it was too alte to brake from close to 80km/h, and by the time I’d got across the intersection the light on the other side was red – does that mean it was green for someone else?

When I first arrived in oz in 1997 it took a while to adapt to the convention for traffic lights here, which is often that the right turn green light comes on separately to the straight ahead green light. This seems to me to create more opportunity for the two right-turning lines of traffic (one from each direction) to collide, than if straight ahead and right turn came on at the same time, so everyone is travelling in the same direction. (not sure if I’ve described this well enough for people to understand?)

IP

There is a two to three second delay between the light turning red and the green in the other direction.Generally speaking the larger the intersection the more likely the delay is closer to three seconds.

patrick_keogh said :

Which of the drivers was wearing lycra? They must be at fault.

I can see your attempt at humour, but someones father, husband, grandfather etc has been killed here. I think the humour might be a little misplaced.

I don’t know this intersection being from god’s country (southside). I have to agree though with red light running in Canberra being at epidemic proportions. I think it’s the most dangerous thing one can do whilst behind the wheel of a motor vehicle. Not to say who was at fault here though, it may all be a tragic circumstance of the driver of the car with the deceased in it being at fault.

Sympathies to the man’s family.

Running red lights aside, it is a seriously bad piece or road engineering.

Jim Jones said :

bundah said :

This is a stupidly designed intersection no thanks to ACT Roads.What they should have done is designed it so that the distance across the Belconnen Way stretch was some 10-15 metres shorter than it currently is.This obviously would’ve reduced the time taken to traverse the length of the intersection thereby reducing the perception that one is likely to run a red light for it takes an eternity to get through the intersection.

People are running red lights and you blame the road? WTF?

What and they don’t run red lights at other intersections? It happens everywhere and yes i agree they should have red light and speed cameras there and many other intersections.The issue with this particular intersection is the sheer size which i believe many elderly and others find intimidating and therefore are more likely to make a poor judgement as to whether they should stop or continue on through when the lights change.

That last one was in response to C_Ctm’s claim of omniscience here:

c_c™ said :

Get real. That intersection is massive, a very safe one. Absolutely no way this could have happened unless one of the drivers was negligent or reckless.

Get real. That intersection is massive, a very safe one. Absolutely no way this could have happened unless one of the drivers was negligent or reckless.

Get lost, you weren’t there with your camera filming it this time, so stop talking out of your bum as if you were there.

patrick_keogh said :

Which of the drivers was wearing lycra? They must be at fault.

Poor taste, Patrick, and not even funny.

Which of the drivers was wearing lycra? They must be at fault.

c_c™ said :

DrKoresh said :

johnboy said :

It was under the GDE. All the glass under the northern side.

That whole area is a giant cluster-f**k of intersections, I’m surprised there haven’t been more accidents there.

Get real. That intersection is massive, a very safe one. Absolutely no way this could have happened unless one of the drivers was negligent or reckless.

I wonder how old elderly means? Probably didn’t know the light was red.
The other danger with this intersection is that you might see a green light even if its not pointing at you. Way too many Green lights at 45degree angles.

From what I saw today (given the location of ambo’s firetrucks etc) the other car came south from GDE and turned off to goto civic and the old lady has seen that green light and gone though the intersection.

GDE tried to do too much. Should have been split as two intersections like every other split crossing south of glenlock or designed like a 4 leaf clover like commonwealth ave and parkes way.

With the current government cheaper always wins.

Comic_and_Gamer_Nerd said :

Why not just install red light cameras at every single traffic lights in Canberra? Pretty much problem solved right there. Mully and the likes wouldn’t bother but I’m pretty sure it would stop the majority of bell ends who run red lights.

Installing red light cameras at only certain intersections in Canberra was always going to result in dickheads running red lights at every other intersection that does not have a camera.

This is just human nature. We learn to hit the picks at those intersections where a fine is the result of running a red light………….but knowing that at most other intersections there is almost nil chance of being busted for running the red……well the result was inevitable really.

If you bring in red light cameras – then every intersection with a red light should be fitted. Otherwise don’t bother…….

I went through this junction this evening, went through an orange light, it was too alte to brake from close to 80km/h, and by the time I’d got across the intersection the light on the other side was red – does that mean it was green for someone else?

When I first arrived in oz in 1997 it took a while to adapt to the convention for traffic lights here, which is often that the right turn green light comes on separately to the straight ahead green light. This seems to me to create more opportunity for the two right-turning lines of traffic (one from each direction) to collide, than if straight ahead and right turn came on at the same time, so everyone is travelling in the same direction. (not sure if I’ve described this well enough for people to understand?)

IP

It was my relatives in the car. If anybody witnessed the accident please, please contact the police.

I’m not sure how you could change this intersection, but I’ve witnessed numerous times where traffic heading City bound think they can go when traffic turning right onto Gungahlin Drive get a green arrow. Around 50% of the time, people get through without encountering other cars, 49% the ones going through the red are abused by drivers trying to turn onto Gungahlin Drive (northbound). 1% of the time a bingle occurs, wether it be a rear ended from traffic waiting or like today.

bundah said :

This is a stupidly designed intersection no thanks to ACT Roads.What they should have done is designed it so that the distance across the Belconnen Way stretch was some 10-15 metres shorter than it currently is.This obviously would’ve reduced the time taken to traverse the length of the intersection thereby reducing the perception that one is likely to run a red light for it takes an eternity to get through the intersection.

People are running red lights and you blame the road? WTF?

c_c™ said :

DrKoresh said :

johnboy said :

It was under the GDE. All the glass under the northern side.

That whole area is a giant cluster-f**k of intersections, I’m surprised there haven’t been more accidents there.

Get real. That intersection is massive, a very safe one. Absolutely no way this could have happened unless one of the drivers was negligent or reckless.

Exactly – this was a fck-up, not an accident.

The intersection is a bit confusing given that you can go multiple ways and there are lines everywhere. But I’m not sure its dangerous given its all controlled by lights

DrKoresh said :

johnboy said :

It was under the GDE. All the glass under the northern side.

That whole area is a giant cluster-f**k of intersections, I’m surprised there haven’t been more accidents there.

Get real. That intersection is massive, a very safe one. Absolutely no way this could have happened unless one of the drivers was negligent or reckless.

This is a stupidly designed intersection no thanks to ACT Roads.What they should have done is designed it so that the distance across the Belconnen Way stretch was some 10-15 metres shorter than it currently is.This obviously would’ve reduced the time taken to traverse the length of the intersection thereby reducing the perception that one is likely to run a red light for it takes an eternity to get through the intersection.

It does increasingly seem that red lights at any intersection in Canberra without a camera are considered a suggestion only. Ironically, the worst place for red light runners I’ve encountered is the intersection between the Tuggeranong police station and Homeworld…

Why not just install red light cameras at every single traffic lights in Canberra? Pretty much problem solved right there. Mully and the likes wouldn’t bother but I’m pretty sure it would stop the majority of bell ends who run red lights.

bd84 said :

Red lights are now considered optional in this city based on my observations. Not only the people trying to sneak through on the amber light, there’s now widespread red light before entering intersection a flooring it through.

The intersection this accident was at is notorious for it, with at least 2 cars running the red at each change (both heading straight and turning) and trying to get through the massive intersection. Adding extra time for the green change appears to be their solution instead of enforcing it, today is the day that it was eventually going to come undone I guess.

Yeah, the red light running at that intersection is just appalling. Not sure if that had anything to do with the accident (at 10am you wouldn’t think so, peak hour is over), but it should definitely be addressed.

Red light camera would strike me as a better solution than extending the gap between red and green lights.

Why give people more time to run a red when you can put a stop to the practice so easily. It’s not the intersection that’s to blame, it’s the f$#ers running red lights.

johnboy said :

It was under the GDE. All the glass under the northern side.

That whole area is a giant cluster-f**k of intersections, I’m surprised there haven’t been more accidents there.

Which intersection was it?

From bd84’s post it seems as if this happened at an intersection. Not knowing the actual circumstances or the area, i cant say if it was a red light running inident, but thoroughly agree that many drivers in this town seem utterly oblivious to the fact that when their light turns red, it means the others are about to turn green. Most people on seeing an amber light put their foot down to get through regardless of the time they have before it goes.

Monsieur Cholet told me just last week that with young Master Cholet in the back of our car, he went to set off across the large intersection near the airport as you turn off the Monaro – his light having turned green. Good thing that he had his wits about him as a car coming from the city shot through a red light in front of him. I remarked that this was in no way unusual in this town, but must admit that the thought of my son being in the car when this happened made my stomach turn.

It’s no way to lose someone you love and I offer my sympathies to the families involved here.

The number of serious near misses I’ve seen at this insection is amazing – unfortunately it was only a matter of time before this happened. Is there a better way to design this intersection?

Red lights are now considered optional in this city based on my observations. Not only the people trying to sneak through on the amber light, there’s now widespread red light before entering intersection a flooring it through.

The intersection this accident was at is notorious for it, with at least 2 cars running the red at each change (both heading straight and turning) and trying to get through the massive intersection. Adding extra time for the green change appears to be their solution instead of enforcing it, today is the day that it was eventually going to come undone I guess.