21 December 2007

Coroner clears Police of any involvement in pursuit death

| Headbone
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One would think that this would be an end to the matter. However as I suspected there will never be an end to it. The armchair experts will continue to challenge the findings of a judicial officer who has handed down findings and the Council of Civil Liberties will continue to bay for more restrictions on Police and more freedoms for individuals who commit crimes. This is the nature of people with polarised, extreme views. Thank Jack Waterford for your “insightful” editorial, you don’t speak for me just because you have your own soapbox. Jack, if you have ever seen Spongebob Squarepants “The Movie” you are very Plankton like.

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Deadmandrinking1:39 pm 23 Dec 07

“- Not registering my car, saving me hundreds of dollars a year
– removing my number plates, making my car unidentifiable
– speeding to work and running red lights, making my journey quicker;
– and talking on my mobile phone (whilst do the above) saving time as I’ll be multi tasking.”

You’d probably be in jail when you got caught. They’d make mincemeat of Riot-Act posters such as yourself. But still; you win!

I agree with the Council for Civil Liberties who are saying that all the recommendations of former commonwealth ombudsman Alan Cameron should be implemented. That is to say that Police should not pursue for traffic offences.

I look forward to

– Not registering my car, saving me hundreds of dollars a year
– removing my number plates, making my car unidentifiable
– speeding to work and running red lights, making my journey quicker;
– and talking on my mobile phone (whilst do the above) saving time as I’ll be multi tasking.

If the cops tried to stop me, I wouldn’t stop. They wouldn’t be able to pursue me, no tickets for me. If they managed to find out who I was, and send me to court and I got found guilty (highly unlikely due to the ACTs identification evidence laws), then next time (and there would be a next time, no way I would get a custodial sentence in the ACT) I would just have to use a stolen car. It wouldn’t be my fault I was driving a stolen cars it would be the systems fault.

Cant agree more HA. But it is much easier to blame the Police rather than their own daughter or the 14 yr old kid! People seem to blame Police because it is easy and facilitated by the media. I can only assume that People look for that easy someone else to blame.

Can we come back to torts for a second here people: the Rose family bayed for police blood, demanding a coronial inquest. They have bayed for blame since the day the very sad decision was maded to let their daughter die peacefully in hopsital. It was a dreadful tragedy all round. But Rose family (step dad and mum): give it a rest now. The police MUST pursue criminals in the act, and we must accept that they cannot predict what this will always lead to. That is not carte blanche for police to pursue recklessly, and in the main, they do not. The AFP pursuit guidelines are very strict, and involve gradations of seniority in the Comms room once a pursuit is called in.

From the moment the stolen vehicle was followed, and then ultimately pursued, there were risks.

When we go out at night and drink, whether we’re pedestrians or drivers, let’s remember how our judgment is ultimately affected by alcohol. Clea’s decision to keep crossing Bunda Street when her friends’ decision was to step back, was prophetic…and no doubt influenced by the high level of alcohol in Clea’s blood. This has only been reported once before in the Canberra Times, and has been pretty much glossed over.

This is in NO way an excuse for the scum bag kid driving the stolen car who killed her. But when the family is looking to lay blame two and a half years later, and when the community is being goaded into believing it’s all the coppers’ fault, stop and take a long hard look at yourself. It’s not as simple as blame, and it’s not in this case anyway, the police’s fault.

Vale Clea Rose. Now let it go, and let it rest.

Greater penalties = bigger/more jails
maybe we could build another one at Tralee

I shall post this on both threads, for the benefit of DMD…

Officer plod, driving along London Circuit when it is dark… follow so far? Juvenille drives stolen car out of car park in opposite direction. From juvenille’s sworn evidence during the coronial inquest, he stated that the second he saw the AFP badge on the sleeve of the driver of the unmarked sedan, he took off and made the decision to drive down East Row. This was prior to police activiating lights and sirens, and prior to the police vehicle even following the stolen car. That’s when Clea Rose had her fate sealed. Geez, if only those silly plods didn’t leave the station that night, none of this would have happened.

And for the purpose of this thread, I can guarantee that the manner of drunk drivers attracts the attention of the plods in the first place. They don’t all of a sudden start driving like fools when a police car is behind them, they do that the minute they get behind the wheel.

Deadmandrinking1:27 am 22 Dec 07

My dad reads this site.

el ......VNBerlinaV812:50 am 22 Dec 07

Pointless argument bd84, DMD obviously has a prior grievance with officers of the law. Been in a bit of trouble before, perhaps?

Deadmandrinking: give up the drinking then you might make some sense.

In any situation there is going to be danger, people in stolen cars are dangerous, drunk drivers are dangerous.. there’s going to be a risk to someone at some point. If these people know that they can get away with it just by gunning it, it’s just going to happen more often and more people will die.

Sure they might get a chopper, what’s the use in the some 2 minutes these chases normally last, it would probably take 5 mins to get a chopper up, I think you will find the outlay of money wouldn’t be worth it for the small area the ACT occupies anyway, anything combined with SouthCare would also be difficult seeing it spends most of its time in NSW.

Stop “spike” sticks are no safer than anything else, the driver can still lose control and hit someone, there is no indication of a specific area cleared for their useage.. and they are used in police chases in the first place!

You can read a numberplate 30 seconds after a car has gone past? your beer goggles must have telescopic lenses, try standing on any road and watch a car go past and count to 30.. you wouldn’t even see the car after about 10 seconds bar a dot on the horizon especially if it was stolen and speeding away. You will find the first thing they do is check the rego.. stolen.. not much is going to help the police after that unless the catch them, and sitting and waving grabbing a description of “male with brown hair” if anything at all as they speed off certainly isn’t going to help.

There are risks involved in any option the police choose, people need to let them do their jobs instead of putting more bullshit restrictions on them.

Deadmandrinking12:25 am 22 Dec 07


They’re about as factual as AFP policing.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha I kill myself.

(sorry, AFP, I know you just need more money.)

Used to be you couldn’t out run police radio, but with no other cops on duty:

Who ya gonna Call?

One of the Victorian Government choppers is jointly used (& paid for) by the ambulance service and the cops – maybe that’s a model we should look at here?

Deadmandrinking3:39 pm 21 Dec 07

You were right until that last sentence aa. People would complain, but noise of helicopters? Those people can kiss my arse and get back to living in the CITY. With spikes, well, the driver is running from the cops and if the area’s been cleared, no harm will come to bystanders.

“I believe they should have the option to use their force to the limit, if it means the safety of others.” The limit should be when the safety of others is concerned.

In a lot of pursuits Police do take down the number plates and follow it up later. however like it has already been stated the car generally has stolen plates on it or is stolen. Getting a description sounds simple, but try producing that evidence to court. Most pursuits happen at night. tinted windows, street lighting, speed of car etc etc play a factor in identification. You can’t simply get a rough description and stitch someone up later because you have a gut feeling.

If Police don’t chase, they might as well hang up their glocks and not work at all. ACT will not be home to gay marraige but a massive world of crime. Word is already getting out that ACT’s sentences are so lenient you can almost get away with anything.

I thin the biggest thing is people limiting what they can do. You give them the $ for a chopper, you’ll have all these people complaining about the sound they produce. You give them spikes, you’ll have people complaining about the safety of the driver. I believe they should have the option to use their force to the limit, if it means the safety of others.

Deadmandrinking3:04 pm 21 Dec 07

They can stop many crimes being committed, sometimes even by their mere presence, such are the super-men and women that are the AFP! (Sorry, it’s hot, I’m hungover and tired). In seriousness though, police can still stop fleeing cars with road-spikes, helicopters and all that jazz. They just need the funding, which I fully support.

The police force would be better with more money and more staff.

what’s the point then of having police if not to stop the people WHILE they are commiting a crime?

Deadmandrinking2:48 pm 21 Dec 07

You can get plates 30 secs behind. You take the plates, try to get a mental description from what you’ve seen and then follow it up.

Yes, people can make stupid decisions by themselves. That’s always going to happen, regardless of whether the police are after you or not.

but they don’t have time to know if it’s a stolen car, if it’s a drunk driver or what it is! They turn their sirens on, the person floors their car! They don’t have time to check anything, or even get the plates! Id like you to be standing there and as a car drives past you at 60km (not even 100) for you to get the plates! Remember, they’re not expecting the person to just outrun them! Plus even after police stop, people are still idiot!

Deadmandrinking2:36 pm 21 Dec 07

Page not found btw.

Deadmandrinking2:36 pm 21 Dec 07

Take down the number-plates then.

If your chasing that drunk driver, that drunk driver is more likely to make a stupid decision under stress.

just look at this case http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/19/2122722.htm, the police terminated the pursuit but he still crashed! So the pursuit didn’t cause it, he did! Now if there was someone standing in their front yard, minding their own business, they’d be dead!

so you’re saying police should chase? if that’s the case, every drunk driver will just floor the car and leave, every person with a stolen car will do the same. What’s the point then? Not all chases are stolen cars. A lot of them are drunk drivers. Now, if they’re drunk and driving and the police don’t stop them, there’s a good chance they’ll injure OTHER people and not just property!

Deadmandrinking2:29 pm 21 Dec 07

Sorry to double-post, that’s true Thumper, but as I said – putting someone’s safety at risk, or recovering possible stolen property?

Deadmandrinking2:28 pm 21 Dec 07

Bullsh-t aa, it’s mostly property than lives. And yes, even when a car is fleeing and your thirty seconds behind, you might be able to get hair color, gender, maybe even a face. I’m not sure, I’m no policing expert – but I’m damn hell sure that human life is a f-k of a lot more important than recovering stolen property. Former commonwealth ombudsman Alan Cameron agrees with me.

Maybe if rather then chasing them, they just shoot out the tires?

“Descriptions of drivers…”. What descriptions could they have? brown hair, male? or blonde hair female? They’re in a cop chase, so the police don’t get a chance to see who it is!

If they don’t stop them straight away, they will more than likely get away with it. Specially if it’s a stolen car! How many times are cars stolen and the offenders NEVER caught! I say if they want to run from the cops, the cops have every right to chase them down. It is very rare that innocent people get killed, but if you look at how many other lives they save by stopping these people, its worth it!

Deadmandrinking2:20 pm 21 Dec 07

Descriptions of drivers…

Deadmandrinking2:08 pm 21 Dec 07

But what’s so bad about changing the guidelines for pursuits? They’re looking at it in the US, and cops can record number-plates and take down descriptions to make an arrest later, instead of charging after them through city centres full of inebriated pedestrians.

This is a bit more of a ‘linkie-dinkie’

** Disclaimer **
Sound warning

Does the aforementioned editorial appear online?

I do so enjoy it when someone trying to pass a serious comment makes a comparison to Spongebob Squarepants.

Policing isn’t like any other job. The Police are the only people we authorise to use force, up to and including deadly force, against us.

Expect restrictions.

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