10 March 2009

Does Anybody Care? (About spelling)

| Possum
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Does anybody care if a sign is spelt incorrectly?

The agents for the units have responded to this, saying the sign will not be changed.

[ED – this sort of attention to detail really inspires confidence in the builders eh?]

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RatsNest said :

Jivrashia said :

youami said :

Language is flexible – it is worth defending (and creating) shades of meaning to keep communication rich; but spelling will change under force of numbers, as it always has.

Even those that say ‘then’ (which is used to refer to a subsequent event) when they mean ‘than’ (which is used to compare two or more things)?
And the inability to determine the difference between ‘effect’ and ‘affect’?
And the common mistake of using ‘your’ instead of ‘you’re’?
And the list goes on and on… our language has gone to the dogs.

In regards to the ‘then vs than’ ‘effect vs affect’. I have a mate who cannot hear the difference between the e and a sounds in many words. I guess where he grew up the differences weren’t common phonemes. Gets a bit irritating when he is talking about various mates and I can’t tell if he is talking about Ellen or Allen.

The inability to distinguish “then” and “than” points to a complete ignorance of either grammer or usage. I even saw it used in the Canberra Times this morning, where its use made the comment completely confusing, as I did not know if the columnist was advocating doing one thing instead of another (which I think was the intent), or, as was written, doing one thing and then doing another.

Emlyn Ward said :

Holden Caulfield said :

Perhaps while you were at the library you should have taken the time to consult a dictionary. Like you, I prefer the spelling “enquiry”, however, the copy of The Macquarie Concise Dictionary on my desk lists both spellings of “enquiry” and “inquiry” as acceptable.

Also, can you please post some reference to your apostrophe theory. Sounds like a load of cobblers to me.

In “enquiry” and “inquiry” we have two distinct words with distinct spellings and distinct meanings.

The fact that the illiterate among us have conflated the two words’ meanings under one spelling is hardly a justification for impoverishing our language like this – dictionaries other than the Macquarie novelty dictionary get it right.

As for apostrophes and plurals of acronyms – surprisingly, even Wikipedia gets this right:
“Multiple options arise when initialisms are spelled with periods and are pluralized: for example, compact discs may become C.D.’s, C.D.s, CD’s, or CDs.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym_and_initialism

The apostrophe-less version of pluralised acronyms is a modern development and is not a rule, but rather a fashion.

The bottom line is that you can’t tell somebody that the plural of TV as “TV’s” is wrong – it isn’t.

I think I have to agree to disagree. I do find it amusing that you base your argument on style and apostrophe use against Wikipedia! I mean do you realise that it is a site populated, edited, and updated by anyone and everyone, literate or otherwise. Even the references on the website are not definitive by any means. Wikipedia is not an official source of information by any standards.

And yes, I await the posts asking how I support my argument. But I will not be Wikipedia!

Jivrashia said :

youami said :

Language is flexible – it is worth defending (and creating) shades of meaning to keep communication rich; but spelling will change under force of numbers, as it always has.

Even those that say ‘then’ (which is used to refer to a subsequent event) when they mean ‘than’ (which is used to compare two or more things)?
And the inability to determine the difference between ‘effect’ and ‘affect’?
And the common mistake of using ‘your’ instead of ‘you’re’?
And the list goes on and on… our language has gone to the dogs.

In regards to the ‘then vs than’ ‘effect vs affect’. I have a mate who cannot hear the difference between the e and a sounds in many words. I guess where he grew up the differences weren’t common phonemes. Gets a bit irritating when he is talking about various mates and I can’t tell if he is talking about Ellen or Allen.

Holden Caulfield said :

Haha, I had a feeling the Macquarie would get poo-pooed.

Used to like the Oxford dictionary for pedantic disputes, but have thrown it out after discovering they accept ‘unputdownable’ as a word. Disgraceful!

Holden Caulfield6:19 pm 12 Mar 09

Emlyn Ward said :

Holden Caulfield said :

Perhaps while you were at the library you should have taken the time to consult a dictionary. Like you, I prefer the spelling “enquiry”, however, the copy of The Macquarie Concise Dictionary on my desk lists both spellings of “enquiry” and “inquiry” as acceptable.

Also, can you please post some reference to your apostrophe theory. Sounds like a load of cobblers to me.

In “enquiry” and “inquiry” we have two distinct words with distinct spellings and distinct meanings.

The fact that the illiterate among us have conflated the two words’ meanings under one spelling is hardly a justification for impoverishing our language like this – dictionaries other than the Macquarie novelty dictionary get it right.

As for apostrophes and plurals of acronyms – surprisingly, even Wikipedia gets this right:
“Multiple options arise when initialisms are spelled with periods and are pluralized: for example, compact discs may become C.D.’s, C.D.s, CD’s, or CDs.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym_and_initialism

The apostrophe-less version of pluralised acronyms is a modern development and is not a rule, but rather a fashion.

The bottom line is that you can’t tell somebody that the plural of TV as “TV’s” is wrong – it isn’t.

Haha, I had a feeling the Macquarie would get poo-pooed.

Thanks for the follow up.

All these problems could be solved with good proof reading. There is no need for smelling piss takes.

“CD’s” as a plural might be correct by some rulings, and have some historical basis, but that doesn’t make it useful. And the historical argument is of marginal usefulness anyway: when there were a few or a few dozen acronyms in common use, punctuation of each could just be treated as a special case. Now we have millions, and many people’s writing is peppered with them (especially in Canberra), so a regularisation and simplification becomes more useful — and also more doable, as many of these writers work under some kind of standard.

I look forward to a time when apostrophes are only used for possession; and possibly to resolve awkwardness such as the plural of “RAS”.

Unfortunately, the tendency among less literate people seems to be towards more punctuation, not less.

Meanwhile, I go with caf’s logic.

I do care about spelling, but I think there are more important communication battles.

Emlyn Ward: I find it easier to use “CDs” than to try and explain why “CD’s” is correct but “tomato’s” isn’t.

I fight to maintain richness of language, and so I resist conflation and dumbing down. But spelling and punctuation really don’t matter so much, even though they irk my inner pedant and can introduce new confusions.

English spelling is already hopelessly irregular, our punctuation is wonderfully creative and flexible, and yet meaning has survived.

And language is not static.

Emlyn Ward said :

Even those that say ‘then’ (which is used to refer to a subsequent event) when they mean ‘than’ (which is used to compare two or more things)?
And the inability to determine the difference between ‘effect’ and ‘affect’?
And the common mistake of using ‘your’ instead of ‘you’re’?
And the list goes on and on… our language has gone to the dogs.

Most of the above are usage issues, not spelling ones. In fact, people seem not to misspell ‘than’ and ‘effect’, but rather to misuse them in speech, then transcribe this correctly into writing.

Examples similar to the above can be found at any point over the last few hundred years. Some of them have led to what I (and you probably) now regard as English.

The dogs are within, and can produce both glorious new language and appalling deadening of the intellect.

Holden Caulfield said :

Perhaps while you were at the library you should have taken the time to consult a dictionary. Like you, I prefer the spelling “enquiry”, however, the copy of The Macquarie Concise Dictionary on my desk lists both spellings of “enquiry” and “inquiry” as acceptable.

Also, can you please post some reference to your apostrophe theory. Sounds like a load of cobblers to me.

In “enquiry” and “inquiry” we have two distinct words with distinct spellings and distinct meanings.

The fact that the illiterate among us have conflated the two words’ meanings under one spelling is hardly a justification for impoverishing our language like this – dictionaries other than the Macquarie novelty dictionary get it right.

As for apostrophes and plurals of acronyms – surprisingly, even Wikipedia gets this right:
“Multiple options arise when initialisms are spelled with periods and are pluralized: for example, compact discs may become C.D.’s, C.D.s, CD’s, or CDs.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym_and_initialism

The apostrophe-less version of pluralised acronyms is a modern development and is not a rule, but rather a fashion.

The bottom line is that you can’t tell somebody that the plural of TV as “TV’s” is wrong – it isn’t.

youami said :

Deckard said :

youami said :

But to make things worse I have seen Canberra street signs in Civic with the word ‘Authorized’… aaarrgghhh!

Did you know that ‘ize’ is the preferred option used by the Oxford English Dictionary.

No way?! Is it the death of English? Maybe we should all become Americans 🙁

I was disappointed and as shocked as you youami. But it’s no recent thing. In fact, according to wikipedia it’s only recently that they actually included the ‘ise’ as an alternate spelling.

Our Macquarie dictionary doesn’t let us down though 🙂

Holden Caulfield5:28 pm 11 Mar 09

Emlyn Ward said :

On another note I recall visiting the State Library in Sydney once and spotting a customer service desk decorated with a sign marked “INQUIRIES”. Naturally I approached the librarian and asked her if her sign was supposed to mean “ENQUIRIES”. When she failed to admit the error, I informed her that it was shameful that a library of all places could display such shoddy usage of the English language.

Perhaps while you were at the library you should have taken the time to consult a dictionary. Like you, I prefer the spelling “enquiry”, however, the copy of The Macquarie Concise Dictionary on my desk lists both spellings of “enquiry” and “inquiry” as acceptable.

Also, can you please post some reference to your apostrophe theory. Sounds like a load of cobblers to me.

What I wonder is why no-one bothered to check before giving the go-ahead…

And the inability to determine the difference between ‘effect’ and ‘affect’?

and so use f***ing ‘impact’ (or some variation, like ‘impacting’!!) instead – ooh, i could scream, i could.

fewer/less is another one. sheesh!

So long as brain-dead footballers earn more than teachers, many children will spurn education in favour of being boof-heads.

youami said :

Language is flexible – it is worth defending (and creating) shades of meaning to keep communication rich; but spelling will change under force of numbers, as it always has.

Even those that say ‘then’ (which is used to refer to a subsequent event) when they mean ‘than’ (which is used to compare two or more things)?
And the inability to determine the difference between ‘effect’ and ‘affect’?
And the common mistake of using ‘your’ instead of ‘you’re’?
And the list goes on and on… our language has gone to the dogs.

Possum said :

Many thanks to all for your comments. I have now received a response from the agents to say that; ‘The builders will be raising this spelling error with the sign writer and I expect this sign will be changed in the near future.’
It pays to shake the tree a little.

Yay, another win for whinging on the internet!

Good work team. 🙂

Emlyn Ward said :

… spotting a customer service desk decorated with a sign marked “INQUIRIES”. Naturally I approached the librarian and asked her if her sign was supposed to mean “ENQUIRIES”.

They should have used Queries.

There’s also the mini-rant about apostrophes – it is incorrect to say that the plural of “TV” must be “TVs” and not “TV’s”.
Some grammar writers (and especially journalistic style-writers) have attempted to state theabove as a rule, but it simply isn’t true – in English, the plural forms of acronyms have for centuries been written with an apostrophe, as in “TV’s”.
It’s bad enough that so many people are so lazy about using apostrophes correctly without getting all anal and imposing an incorrect rule on them as well.

On another note I recall visiting the State Library in Sydney once and spotting a customer service desk decorated with a sign marked “INQUIRIES”. Naturally I approached the librarian and asked her if her sign was supposed to mean “ENQUIRIES”. When she failed to admit the error, I informed her that it was shameful that a library of all places could display such shoddy usage of the English language.
Similar signs have sprouted all over the ACT as well.

ant: Don’t put words into my mouth, I didn’t ever say it was frustrating.

I just suggested that you might want to let it go, because you seem to be fixated on the issue out of all proportion to its importance.

But by all means Maintain The Rage, and write the same comment every time someone brings up a thread about misspelt signs. It’s no skin off my nose.

The builders will be raising this spelling error with the sign writer

I can see the builders now – Err we spelted it rong the ferst time – now we pay you to do it again – wif eddets. Fanks.

Got no bwain

The important thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

youami said :

Did you know that ‘ize’ is the preferred option used by the Oxford English Dictionary.

OED = British standard usage + “ize”

The OED are a strange faction on this issue. See, eg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences

“The ratio between -ise and -ize stands at 3:2 in the British National Corpus.[49] The OED spelling (which can be indicated by the registered IANA language tag en-GB-oed), and thus -ize, is used in many British-based academic publications, such as Nature, the Biochemical Journal and The Times Literary Supplement. In Australia and New Zealand -ise spellings strongly prevail; the Australian Macquarie Dictionary, among other sources, gives the -ise spelling first. The -ise form is preferred in Australian English at a ratio of about 3:1 according to the Macquarie Dictionary. Conversely, Canadian usage is essentially like American.[50] Worldwide, -ize endings prevail in scientific writing and are commonly used by many international organizations.”

“Cresent”, however, does not seem to have much traction anywhere, even in Strawboaterland, although a well-known search engine identifies 923,000 examples.

Language is flexible – it is worth defending (and creating) shades of meaning to keep communication rich; but spelling will change under force of numbers, as it always has.

Is there a set allocation of time/ number of words to talk about something that’s frustrating, caf? Perhaps you’d like to publish a set of guidelines we could all follow, so we don’t “go on” about an issue too much.

It doesn’t matter what they said in ’68 caf, we’ve grown up with it as Dairy Flat Road and that’s what it is. It’s like telling us to pronounce it Manooka because that’s how it was supposed to be, or suddenly changing all the signs to read ‘Canberry’.

I don’t think so!!

What would Footrot Flats be without the flat bit? Plain old footrot!!

Now give us back our Dairy Flat Road, and do the thing proper!

Holden Caulfield11:44 am 11 Mar 09

Possum said :

Many thanks to all for your comments. I have now received a response from the agents to say that; ‘The builders will be raising this spelling error with the sign writer and I expect this sign will be changed in the near future.’
It pays to shake the tree a little.

RiotACT, solving the BIG issues!

Ah ha. I’ve worked it out. Going to the logical place, Tools – grammar and spelling, doesn’t do it, it still defaults to US english.

What I did then was find a red squiggle underline, right clicked it, and the selected “select language”, found Aust English and also used the option to set that as the default.

Dunno why you can’t do it from the main bit but there you go.

Thanks for the word help you guys. I think I was doing it off the spellcheck box, but it just wasn’t “taking”. I’ll go fiddle.

ant: Regardless of the merits of the issue, you’ve been on about Dairy Rd for a few years now, perhaps time to let it go? (By the way ACTPLA seems to think it was gazetted Dairy Rd in ’68: see here)

Word – to change to Australian English, look to the very bottom of the screen and you will see a tiny box along the page, (about in the centre), which shows the language the programme is set to.
Double click on that box – presuming it is set to “English (U.S)” and this will display a list of other languages. Select “English (Australia)” and this should then set all the words to spell ‘correctly’! Good luck!

Reminds me of a neon sign in Brisbane in the 80’s for Flickers.

FLICKERS is not a sign you want uppercase in neon. The L and the I merged into a U at nighttime. Then again, this was in Fortitude Valley (the equivalent of Fyshwick, but more discrete), so maybe it was deliberate.

Different versions of word do it different ways…
The alter version gets it through Locality settings in windows itself I think. Earlier versions get it from a setting in “Options”

Good outcome. Now to fix Dairy FLAT Road.

Hey does anyone know how to stop the spell check from wanting to use american english? I was fighting with my resume the other day… I figure that it’s caused by the setup when the document was first created, and I’m guessing that US English was the default dictionary. But I could not get it to use the Australian English dic no matter how hard I tried. Terribly frustrating. (MS word).

Many thanks to all for your comments. I have now received a response from the agents to say that; ‘The builders will be raising this spelling error with the sign writer and I expect this sign will be changed in the near future.’
It pays to shake the tree a little.

Telstra tower used to be called “Telecom Tower” an the sign writers decided it would be cheaper to put a “stra” sign over half of the “Telecom” sign.
So they ended up with “Telestra Tower” on the sign.
It was like that for years before someone fixed it…
Used to be on the south side of the road going around black mountain.

If the people responsible won’t change it, it is probably because when they sent the text to the sign writer, they spelt it wrong themselves, and now then don’t want to pay to have it done again. If it was the sign writers fault you can be sure they would ring and complain.

Has anyone noticed the mural wall in Ali Baba in Dickson that says ‘Our food is superfluous in antioxidants’?

Makes me giggle every time I go in there.

Holden Caulfield9:14 am 11 Mar 09

ant said :

Well, a few years back, some signwriter evidently decided that Dairy Flat Road would now be called Dairy Road. Annoys the crap out of me. It’s Dairy bloody FLAT.

So, which is it?

Dairy Flat Road

or

Dairy Bloody Flat Road

Thanks for the link @21, Ryan. Love the idea of a Mayor of Richardson. I’d rather see a Mayor of Charnwood, though.

Sepi said:
Just out of interest, does anyone under about 25 care about this?

I’m just under 25 and I care about correct spelling and grammar! When I was in Year 12 my phone bill came to well over $300 for SMS alone – simply because I absolutely refuse to abbreviate or use SMS lingo (e.g. gr8 l8tr).

Deckard said :

youami said :

But to make things worse I have seen Canberra street signs in Civic with the word ‘Authorized’… aaarrgghhh!

Did you know that ‘ize’ is the preferred option used by the Oxford English Dictionary.

No way?! Is it the death of English? Maybe we should all become Americans 🙁

youami said :

But to make things worse I have seen Canberra street signs in Civic with the word ‘Authorized’… aaarrgghhh!

Did you know that ‘ize’ is the preferred option used by the Oxford English Dictionary.

Another rant: the improper use of apostrophes. So many many people use apostrophes incorrectly for plurals, especially for plurals of acronyms. It is “the 60s” not ” the 60’s”, it is “lots of TVs” not ” lots of TV’s”, it is “PJs” not “PJ’s”, etc, etc, I could go on. An apostrophe should only be used in a possessive context (“the TV’s colour”) or in abbreviated words when letters are missing (“don’t”). Aaarrgghhh!

I think the trend in poor grammar and punctuation comes from SMS messaging and the electronic age of spelling checkers on word processing software, not to mention the contamination of Australian English with US English and associated idiosyncrasies. Dates are written 23rd June 2009 not June 23rd 2009. We use colour not color, we use authorised not authorized, we use centre not center, I could go on. But to make things worse I have seen Canberra street signs in Civic with the word ‘Authorized’… aaarrgghhh!

Oh and one final rant, some old fashioned people who have high paid jobs cannot spell either! Trust me, I work with them!

Is all this complacency perhaps or is it just not caring about style and finesse, not to mention the fact that society is being illiterate!

Yayyyyyy, calwell!!!

hold on, i live a street away from there.
I have access to spray paint/permanent marker.

🙂

Ian said :

It is a law of nature that signwriters can’t spell.

and is much funnier to be there, and see their faces when they work out the mistake that they have made…

Another law is that anyone making a post about grammar or spelling is doomed to make an error of grammar or spelling.

It is a law of nature that signwriters can’t spell.

And, if anyone spotted my grammatical errors and calling me a hypocrite… good call.

sepi wrote:

sepi said :

Just out of interest, does anyone under about 25 care about this?

If one is satisfied with low paying, low skill, labour work then one shouldn’t even waste their time about a spelling mistakes, and much less grammar and punctuation.

sepi said :

It is becoming a bit old fashioned to care about spelling I think.

Old fashioned people who have high paid jobs that requires them to have a good command of the English language so that they can communicate clearly to their colleagues, clients, and the general public?
Gosh, now who’d want to be so old fashioned!?

Just out of interest, does anyone under about 25 care about this?
It is becoming a bit old fashioned to care about spelling I think.

Sepi your an idiot ! look at you with your retarded cap backwards and your pants hanging around your bloody knees, hanging in the sumadome in Tuggranong

have some bloody respect !

Who do the agents work for? Surely there is a body corporate or some such that can be yelled at until something is done or someone gets sued…

white out and a black marker? You could properly capitalise the letters while you’re there.

Incorrect spelling annoys me.

Just out of interest, does anyone under about 25 care about this?
It is becoming a bit old fashioned to care about spelling I think.

Did the agents say why they won’t change it? It probably knocks more off the value of the units than it would cost by getting the sign done again.

How embarrassing.

Just get a red texta and mark their spelling.

swamiOFswank said :

A mate of mine who was a signwriter once did a shop awning and accidentally left the O out of ‘discounts’. They had to fix it up pretty quickly.

hahaha, awesome

It should be corrected free of charge by the signwriter.

A very poor example of their work.

swamiOFswank8:00 pm 10 Mar 09

A mate of mine who was a signwriter once did a shop awning and accidentally left the O out of ‘discounts’. They had to fix it up pretty quickly.

vandalise it then they will have to replace it

(not i don’t condone any damage to private (or public) property

GardeningGirl7:57 pm 10 Mar 09

Grr! I just don’t get it. Surely if you are paying for a professionally made sign, that includes accuracy and correct spelling.
(Btw I’m with you Ant about Dairy FLAT Road.)

Meh. As examples of poor grammar go, this scores very low. In fact I don’t know why I’m wasting time typing this…

Argh!

First 5c and counting.

Reminds me of the menu in the ‘Cafe on Mort’ on Mort Street in the city. They offer about five or six different varieties of ‘Sandwhiches’ for purchase.

astrojax said :

what, is it supposed to be ‘weber’, named after the famous sociologist? he’d be tunring in his garve…

; )

It’s named after Gordon Webber, a Labor Mayor of Richardson
http://apps.actpla.act.gov.au/actlic/places/search/streetResults_new.asp?suburbName=CALWELL&Submit=Continue&StreetName=WEBBER%20CRESCENT

Well, a few years back, some signwriter evidently decided that Dairy Flat Road would now be called Dairy Road. Annoys the crap out of me. It’s Dairy bloody FLAT.

astrojax said :

what, is it supposed to be ‘weber’, named after the famous sociologist? he’d be tunring in his garve…

After having a barbecue named after him, do you think he’d be happier with being remembered this way – if only by all those Calwellingtons who majored in sociology?

I like the sound of ‘tunring in his garve’ though. It reminds me of that line from Jabberwocky “… and the mome raths outgrabe.” Perhaps Lewis Carroll hated misspelling on public signage too, and wrote the poem after a particularly infuriating stroll through the local marketplace. Fortunately for him, he wouldn’t have had to suffer the indignity of ‘cuppachino’. Public flogging for the real estate agents does seem to be the only answer.

Holden Caulfield6:05 pm 10 Mar 09

Typos happen, but stuff like this is pretty bad. I more worried about the shit typeface use. If a font is meant to be condensed there will be a condensed version, if not don’t f**king stretch it!

Plus, if I see one more multi-million dollar building defaced with some shit Arial last minute signage I will spew!

As you were…

Gallipolo!! *chuckle* I want to marry that person also!

what, is it supposed to be ‘weber’, named after the famous sociologist? he’d be tunring in his garve…

; )

Who can forget the story in The Canberra Times a few months ago where the word Gallipoli was spelt wrong in a headline (“Gallipolo”)?

That’s pretty funny. Not as good as Narooma’s sign that points the way to “Austalia Rock”, though!

winning star5:24 pm 10 Mar 09

The AMC had ‘Escape a Life SentANCE’ out the front for months.

It’s basically sign pollution. I object!!

Woody Mann-Caruso5:23 pm 10 Mar 09

The Gardens at Gowrie development used to be The Gardens at Fadden until somebody pointed out that being across the road from Fadden Pines wasn’t the same thing as being in the suburb.

Just as embarassing is the Oriental takeaway at Jamison which offers ‘Laska’ instead of Laksa

Pisses me off. I’d happily contribute $20 to a new sign.

Pfft.
Its Calwell.
Its not like they need to read in order to steal your car, or produce more bogans.

I care very much about both spelling and punctuation – where are the capital letters damnit?

If only they’d written:

six webber crescent

they could have pretended they were being all cool and designer.

I really can’t “C” what the problem is….

“The agents for the units have responded to this, saying the sign will not be changed.”

Even if (ahem) someone (ahem) “accidentally” splashed the sign with piant stripper as they were walking past?

V twin venom4:48 pm 10 Mar 09

“[ED – this sort of attention detail really inspires confidence in the builders eh?]”

Perhaps that should be attention TO detail JB

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