GDE 80 km/h speed limit - not compliant with AS 1742.4

I was under the impression that the 10% tolerance was in an upwards direction – i.e. when your speedo says 80 you might really be doing as little as 72 (that’s assuming that 10% is even the real number, which I’m dubious of). I’ve read a few new car reviews that give the “actual speed at indicated 100km/h”, and it’s always in the 90s.

If your car’s speedo is showing a lower speed that you’re actually travelling, then I’d suggest that it needs fixing.

It’s actually far worse than 80 when the P2P’s come in.

As I understand it speedo’s have a tolerance of 10% so to be sure of not getting a ticket you really should stick at 75kmh.

If you dont have cruise control you probably should stick at 70 to avoid creeping over the limit and getting pinged.

What this will create is traffic from Gungahlin travelling at 70-75 (with no room to speed up even when overtaking) merging with traffic joining after the first camera that wants to travel at a reasonable 90-95kmh.

Throw a backhoe clogging the left hand lane at 50kmh into that mix and you have a recipe for accidents and frustration where there weas none before.

Good run this morning at 730, travelled at 90 and barely had to slow down the whole way.

yellowsnow said :

EvanJames said :

yellowsnow said :

Ha! How much productivity has been lost in the writing of this article, and all the associated comments?

You managed to waste quite a bit of time and presumably productivity to write what boiled down to “I don’t care as I don’t use the road so I don’t understand what the problem is”.

Actually, I probably would have wasted my evening reading blogs or looking at porn, so no productivity lost whatsoever:)

And I do use the road. The road doesn’t have a problem, it’s awesome – though more roadside sculptures (in lieu of proposed point to point cameras) would have been nice

The roadside sculptures are bloody aweful, and a complete embarrassment!!! For instance, that absolute junk at the Gunghalin Drive overpass over Barton Hwy.

I don’t understand why they can’t allow it to be a Freeway in the same way Sydney or Melbourne would, and give it a 100km/h speed limit. I don’t understand what Canberra’s aversion is to 100km/h on appropriate roads

EvanJames said :

yellowsnow said :

Ha! How much productivity has been lost in the writing of this article, and all the associated comments?

You managed to waste quite a bit of time and presumably productivity to write what boiled down to “I don’t care as I don’t use the road so I don’t understand what the problem is”.

Actually, I probably would have wasted my evening reading blogs or looking at porn, so no productivity lost whatsoever:)

And I do use the road. The road doesn’t have a problem, it’s awesome – though more roadside sculptures (in lieu of proposed point to point cameras) would have been nice

Bramina said :

yellowsnow said :

devils_advocate said :

What happens when you multiply that amount of delay by the number of people delayed each morning/evening, and then multiply that number by a dollar figure representing the value of time lost? What is the estimate of aggregate lost productivity?

PS great article.

Ha! How much productivity has been lost in the writing of this article, and all the associated comments? Answer: a helluvalot

10,000 cars driving down the GDE will collectively spend the equivalent of three 40 hour work weeks extra on the road. I suspect far more than 10,000 cars would drive down GDE in a morning.

So in answer to your question: If Sgt Bungers spent three 40 hour work weeks writing this post, he would have lost less productivity than the people who drive on GDE on a given morning.

Thanks for the calculations. Except whatever time drivers gained travelling at 90kmh down GDE in the mornings, they’d lose as soon as they hit traffic choked Parkes Way, Hindmarsh, Cotter Rd etc.

I still can’t believe people are obsessed with this. I drive the new GDE regularly and think it’s a great and relaxing drive. Can’t people just look on the bright side and enjoy the road – and channel their energy into championing another road related cause, like duplicating Gundaroo drive for instance?

I’m yet to hear of people calling for the speed limit on Adelaide Ave/Yarra Glen, which is also built to freeway standard but has an 80kmh limit, increased to 90kmh or more. It just doesn’t happen. Maybe there’s something unique about Gungahlin people — maybe the years of traffic chaos made them aggro or pessimistic or ready to take the government on or whatever (I used to live there too until recently so I speak partly from experience).

Or is the real issue not so much the 80kmh limit (normally ignored) but the plans for speed cameras, which would actually force people to adhere to it? People feel they have a god given right to speed, and point to point cameras take that away.

yellowsnow said :

devils_advocate said :

What happens when you multiply that amount of delay by the number of people delayed each morning/evening, and then multiply that number by a dollar figure representing the value of time lost? What is the estimate of aggregate lost productivity?

PS great article.

Ha! How much productivity has been lost in the writing of this article, and all the associated comments? Answer: a helluvalot

10,000 cars driving down the GDE will collectively spend the equivalent of three 40 hour work weeks extra on the road. I suspect far more than 10,000 cars would drive down GDE in a morning.

So in answer to your question: If Sgt Bungers spent three 40 hour work weeks writing this post, he would have lost less productivity than the people who drive on GDE on a given morning.

Watson said :

Please tell me this is sarcasm? And then I could add that if they would allow the loving mother to drive at 150kph on all roads, imagine how much more time she’d be able to spend with her kids and how much better their and everyone else’s lives would be! *insert rainbows and unicorns here*

Personally speed limits never bother me at all. And if you are affected that much by having to drive 80kph on a road that looks to you like it would be safe at 90kph (or 120kph as some people surely think) then maybe it is time to get into meditation or something. Or take the bus or the bike so you don’t have to deal with that frustration.

As much as 80km/h is pointlessly slow, 150km/h is obviously dangerously fast.

The whole point is that the speed limit should be a balance between safety on one hand and on the other not wasting people’s time or fining them for behaviour that harms nobody. Good laws strike balances just like this.

You and others may not be personally bothered by inappropriately low speed limits, but this is not a valid justification for wasting other people’s valuable time. I’m sure there are things you value. I’m also sure there are people who would not be bothered if the government makes some law that deprive you of these things. But their not being bothered does not make it right.

Moreover, you would be justified in being affronted if the government needlessly deprived you of something you valued.

As a cyclist who used to regularly use the GDE and have just ridden the last 2 days, I agree the speed limit should be 90 km/h. I don’t believe the 80km/h limits are due to the on road cycle lanes which are now more generous than when we had one lane.

According to http://www.tams.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/12503/13_Pedestrian_and_Cycle_Facilities_Edition_1_Revision_1.pdf

Arterial (dual carriageway) = 80km/h = 2.0m bicycle lanes, 2 x 3.5m traffic lanes, both carriageways (9.0m wide pavement)

Parkway = 100km/h = 2.5 – 3.0m bicycle lane, 2 x 3. 5m traffic lanes, 0.5-1.0m wide median shoulder (10.5-11.0m)

So without actually measuring I believe that the cycle lanes are parkway standard (with the exception of a few spots, around bridges), so 90km/h should be fine.

Of course can Canberra drivers merge in large volumes at 90km/h ?? maybe ? or maybe only if a speed camera at merge points (like Tugg parkway). No P-P cameras please…

Bramina said :

Now correct me if I am wrong, but I suspect you think something like that laws harm bad people and protect good people (who obey laws). If a person breaks the law, they must be bad.

This simply isn’t the way the world works. I agree good laws harm bad people, but there are also bad laws and they harm good people.

What if a mother who loves her children dearly has to drive to work down GDE, twice a day. That is 1.30 minutes every day that she has lost and cannot spend with her children. Over a year of weekdays, that is six hours that she has not been able to spend with her children. Why? Because of some stupid speed limit that didn’t make the road appreciably safer.

For every 10,000 cars that drive down GDE at 80km/h, people have collectively lost five days of their lives to that road. Not knowing how many cars drive down GDE every day, I doubt it would be too many years before people collectively loose a lifetime.

But good people also disobey bad laws. If a government makes a stupid, pointless, arbitrary rule, then intelligent, decent, respectable, otherwise law abiding citizens will see that this rule is stupid, pointless and arbitrary and they will ignore it.

What if this mother is struggling to pay her or mortgage, and her bills, and to send her kids to school, and to feed them, but she drives down GDE 96 km per hour. As Sgt.Bungers points out, this is a perfectly safe speed. She isn’t driving dangerously or risking harm to others, just breaking a stupid law. But if she is caught, she will be fined $250, and be in so much more financial difficulty.

The GDE speed limit is pointlessly slow, it either robs good people of their time or potentially steals their money. When people get angry about this issue it is because it is just another seemingly trivial embuggerance that reflects the ACT government’s cool disregard for our welfare.

Please tell me this is sarcasm? And then I could add that if they would allow the loving mother to drive at 150kph on all roads, imagine how much more time she’d be able to spend with her kids and how much better their and everyone else’s lives would be! *insert rainbows and unicorns here*

Personally speed limits never bother me at all. And if you are affected that much by having to drive 80kph on a road that looks to you like it would be safe at 90kph (or 120kph as some people surely think) then maybe it is time to get into meditation or something. Or take the bus or the bike so you don’t have to deal with that frustration.

Those labouring under the missapprehension that there is clear evidence that lower speed limits always save lives should review the following links :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Maximum_Speed_Law#Safety_impact
http://www.roadsense.com.au/sensible_policies.html
Most drivers will drive at a speed within their own capablity and appropriate to conditions – those that dont will usually not obey posted speed limits anyway.
When you lower a speed limit you increase the number of vehicles traversing that section of road at any one time – and increase the risk of an accident. National speed limits in Australia were introduced on the premise of fuel savings during the fuel crisis in the late 70s.
As for the trivialisation of saving 45 seconds – this is a 12.5% increase in travel time … add to that the 45 seconds you lose on other sections of your trip, the 45 seconds you stop at each set of traffic lights (often waiting for them to let ANY traffic direction move), and the amount of time you are forced to do less than the speed limit and a twice daily commute can become frustrating – and frustration does not enhance road safety.
I would argue that enforcing the keep left rule and forcing vehicles that could not sustain speeds close to posted speed limits – eg slow moving trucks or a very small number of cyclists on roadside verges – to use alternative routes would do more for road safety than lower speed limits. I have heard Victorian police are currently issuing fines for travelling too slow. Planners should be using their matchbox cars or simulations to design roads and speed limits for optimal safe traffic flow. A few extra hours of planning can save a few thousand of re-implementation.

Gungahlin Al said :

Good analysis Sgt Bungers. Are you OK with me reproducing a version of it in a Gungahlin Community Council newsletter? And if so, would it be correct to state that you are a member of the local police?

Hi Al, you’re more than welcome to pass the article round. Squeaky wheel gets the oil!

I’m not a police officer though. “Sgt.Bungers” is simply an internet handle I’ve been using for over a decade now, derived from back in my gaming days.

I was an ambulance officer for a short time, hence have had advanced driver training.

yellowsnow said :

Ha! How much productivity has been lost in the writing of this article, and all the associated comments?

You managed to waste quite a bit of time and presumably productivity to write what boiled down to “I don’t care as I don’t use the road so I don’t understand what the problem is”.

yellowsnow said :

Lastly – if people really care so much about productivity lost due to time spent in traffic, why live in the outer suburbs? Presumably you’ve traded the hassle of commuting for the extra space/quiet/affordability of suburbia. It was an informed choice – now live with it, or move closer to work or get a job closer to home.

You have clearly never been to Gungahlin, there is no extra space or affordability out there.

yellowsnow said :

devils_advocate said :

What happens when you multiply that amount of delay by the number of people delayed each morning/evening, and then multiply that number by a dollar figure representing the value of time lost? What is the estimate of aggregate lost productivity?

PS great article.

Ha! How much productivity has been lost in the writing of this article, and all the associated comments? Answer: a helluvalot

I can’t believe people get so fired up about this. There’s people dying in the world, poverty, sexual slavery, roads like Gundaroo Drive and Cotter Rd in desparate need of duplication, and Sgt Bungers dedicates a second post in a week to shaving a few precious mins off his daily commute? The Gungahlin community has finally got its longed-for wetdream, Australia’s most expensive aboveground non-toll road (per km), paid for by the ACT taxpayer, and yet the whingeing continues. Please! Just relax and enjoy the drive, and the smooth bitumen we all helped paid for.

I should also point out that a 90kmh limit was never planned for GDE (not in last few years anyway), contrary to popular claim. It has a ‘design speed of 90kmh’, a very different preposition — new roads are routinely designed to be safe at 10kmh or more over limit in recognition of that fact that many exceed the limit. If design speed was matched to actual speed limit there would be a lot more speed-induced accidents on our roads.

Lastly – if people really care so much about productivity lost due to time spent in traffic, why live in the outer suburbs? Presumably you’ve traded the hassle of commuting for the extra space/quiet/affordability of suburbia. It was an informed choice – now live with it, or move closer to work or get a job closer to home.

Why would you care if you don’t use the road ? the people on here use it every day and are trying to fix a huge mistake. It remains to be seen whether Govco is big enough to acknowledge it and listen to reason.

Great article. Sick of the stupid speed limits imposed on us.

Another good example:

Haydon Drive is 2.2km long, has 7 sets of lights, 10 streets coming off and on along the way, passes a hospital (Calvary), an elderly home (Calvary), a university (UC), A school (Radford), The CIT, as well as several residential areas, yet is THE SAME LIMIT as the quality and uninterrupted gungahlin drive you’ve written about.

Additionally, why is the north/west bound exit from gungahlin drive onto belconnen way 60km/h?? It is almost 1km long, has no streets in or out, and leads from one 80km road to another, while Haydon drive is 20km/h faster. Madness!

threepaws said :

So in a nutshell, people choose to break they law by driving at a speed that ‘they perceive to be safe’, and then complain when they take part in ‘revenue raising’ by copping a speeding fine.

Speeding fines are a choice. Don’t break the law, and you never have to see one.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but I suspect you think something like that laws harm bad people and protect good people (who obey laws). If a person breaks the law, they must be bad.

This simply isn’t the way the world works. I agree good laws harm bad people, but there are also bad laws and they harm good people.

What if a mother who loves her children dearly has to drive to work down GDE, twice a day. That is 1.30 minutes every day that she has lost and cannot spend with her children. Over a year of weekdays, that is six hours that she has not been able to spend with her children. Why? Because of some stupid speed limit that didn’t make the road appreciably safer.

For every 10,000 cars that drive down GDE at 80km/h, people have collectively lost five days of their lives to that road. Not knowing how many cars drive down GDE every day, I doubt it would be too many years before people collectively loose a lifetime.

But good people also disobey bad laws. If a government makes a stupid, pointless, arbitrary rule, then intelligent, decent, respectable, otherwise law abiding citizens will see that this rule is stupid, pointless and arbitrary and they will ignore it.

What if this mother is struggling to pay her or mortgage, and her bills, and to send her kids to school, and to feed them, but she drives down GDE 96 km per hour. As Sgt.Bungers points out, this is a perfectly safe speed. She isn’t driving dangerously or risking harm to others, just breaking a stupid law. But if she is caught, she will be fined $250, and be in so much more financial difficulty.

The GDE speed limit is pointlessly slow, it either robs good people of their time or potentially steals their money. When people get angry about this issue it is because it is just another seemingly trivial embuggerance that reflects the ACT government’s cool disregard for our welfare.

buzz819 said :

Well I think for starters they should just call it the one name.

Gungahlin Drive, Caswell Drive, Tuggeranong Parkway, Drakeford Drive and Tharwa Drive.

I vote for the ‘J Stanhope Memorial Drive’.

devils_advocate said :

What happens when you multiply that amount of delay by the number of people delayed each morning/evening, and then multiply that number by a dollar figure representing the value of time lost? What is the estimate of aggregate lost productivity?

PS great article.

Ha! How much productivity has been lost in the writing of this article, and all the associated comments? Answer: a helluvalot

I can’t believe people get so fired up about this. There’s people dying in the world, poverty, sexual slavery, roads like Gundaroo Drive and Cotter Rd in desparate need of duplication, and Sgt Bungers dedicates a second post in a week to shaving a few precious mins off his daily commute? The Gungahlin community has finally got its longed-for wetdream, Australia’s most expensive aboveground non-toll road (per km), paid for by the ACT taxpayer, and yet the whingeing continues. Please! Just relax and enjoy the drive, and the smooth bitumen we all helped paid for.

I should also point out that a 90kmh limit was never planned for GDE (not in last few years anyway), contrary to popular claim. It has a ‘design speed of 90kmh’, a very different preposition — new roads are routinely designed to be safe at 10kmh or more over limit in recognition of that fact that many exceed the limit. If design speed was matched to actual speed limit there would be a lot more speed-induced accidents on our roads.

Lastly – if people really care so much about productivity lost due to time spent in traffic, why live in the outer suburbs? Presumably you’ve traded the hassle of commuting for the extra space/quiet/affordability of suburbia. It was an informed choice – now live with it, or move closer to work or get a job closer to home.

Gungahlin Al said :

Good analysis Sgt Bungers. Are you OK with me reproducing a version of it in a Gungahlin Community Council newsletter? And if so, would it be correct to state that you are a member of the local police?

I do hope that, if you use his piece, you attribute it “by Sgt Bungers”.

buzz819 said :

Drakeford Drive and Tharwa Drive.

The Parkway is a Parkway, not a Drive or Street. I agree with you about Drakeford/Tharwa drive though and Tuggers/Caswell/GDE (up to Ginninderra Drive), and I’d at least call the section of Drakeford drive between the Namatjira Drive intersection and the Tuggeranong Parkway, Tuggeranong Parkway. A long, long time ago the parkway was going to be extended down past Kambah and running to the town centre (or some such foolish plan) which is why Kambah Pool Road has such a wide easement – room for a dual carriageway high speed road.

So the gods have decreed an 80k limit on this dual lane, separated carriageway, freeway quality road.

How do these same gods arrive at the 90k limit on the Majura lane, single lane, poorly aligned cart track, or the 100k Fairbairn Ave east of the airport, with its numerous intersections?

Let’s get fair dinkum about this. We have some bloody dangerous roads with relatively high speed limits, (where very few accidents occur) and some high quality roads with ludicrously low limits. Either the limit setters are dolts, or these limits are being set to raise the maximum revenue. The point to point cameras on Hindmarsh Drive are in the same boat.

There has never been any attempt by Govco to relate accident history to speed limits applied.

All current limits seem to be geared to providing the maximum return to Govco from speeding fines.

With luck, the Motorists Party will have a very healthy bank of dissatisfied citizens when the next election rocks around.

Good work Sgt. The people are never going to take speed limits seriously when we have situations such as this. This government has lost touch with the community and their expectations.

Good analysis Sgt Bungers. Are you OK with me reproducing a version of it in a Gungahlin Community Council newsletter? And if so, would it be correct to state that you are a member of the local police?

MissChief said :

If they wanted to be consistent, why didn’t they make it 100klm like the rest of the Parkway?

Well I think for starters they should just call it the one name,

Gungahlin Drive, Caswell Drive, Tuggeranong Parkway, Drakeford Drive and Tharwa Drive.

If they wanted to be consistent, why didn’t they make it 100klm like the rest of the Parkway?

KeenGolfer said :

Personally I agree that an 80 limit on a fresh dual lane road such as the GDE is too low. However, you lost all credibility by claiming 100% non compliance with the speed limit when your video clearly showed vehicles obeying the speed limit.

Criticism noted! I could have worded things better in the video. I’ve updated the description on youtube to acknowledge that I could not have passed anybody obeying 80 km/h:

Update: A few people have pointed out that I did not take into account the number of motorists who also may have been obeying the speed limit exactly when I was taking the video, fair call.

However, the fact remains that if the speed limit had been implemented based on the roads intended design speed (90 km/h), or based on the 85th percentile speed, then I would have overtaken at least a handful of vehicles whilst travelling at the speed limit.

If 80 km/h was a reasonable speed limit, then I should have overtaken several vehicles. I caught up to one vehicle, which exited prior to me passing, and was overtaken by 22 vehicles. This indicates to me that whilst travelling at the speed limit, my vehicle was one of the slowest on the GDE.

If every motorist on the road was travelling smack bang at 80 km/h, I would have overtaken nobody, and nobody would have passed me.

shadow boxer said :

Another piece of withering intelectual analysis from Jimbo, seriously dude why do you bother ?

All you come on here for is to shout at people who don’t blindly follow the Greens.

I’ve been wondering about this myself.

troll-sniffer said :

All the self-righteous posters here who insist on pointing out that if you don’t go faster then the posted limit you won’t have a problem might just as well be fast asleep for all the notice they’ve taken of the point of this post.

You probably still won’t get it, either by choice or by being narrow-minded and relatively ignorant, but the point is that speed limits should be consistent and make sense. The speed limit on the GDE fails on both counts.

Human psychology being what it is, and no amount of self-opinionated bleating can change our fundamental human traits, a large percentage of drivers will react to inappropriate speed limits not by being ultra-observant and careful not to disobey the sign, but by subconsciously realising that the limits are to be taken with a grain of salt and mostly ignored to a certain degree. This then leads to inappropriate penalties, counter-productive to safe driving practices, and the system becomes nothing more than a blatant daily neon-lit sign of bureaucratic incompetence, to be noted rather than respected.

+1 on everything you said.

You raise that speed limit to 90 or even 100kmh and those same drivers will still be overtaking you. But yeah, some of the speed limits around town are frustratingly inappropriate.

Grail said :

I’d like to see the same speed limit applied for the GDE up to Ginninderra drive as is applied for the Tuggeranong Parkway from Glenloch Interchange all the way down to Drakeford Drive. Down that end it’s a four lane road with concrete divider. Up along the GDE it’s dual carriage way with two cable fences separating the carriageways.

The whole stretch of road could be set to 90km/h which would help people merging in from Lady Denman Drive Southbound onto the Parkway, or merging in from the Cotter Road onto the Northbound Parkway. This would also help peak time congestion since Parkes Way is 90km/h up to the first overpass in Civic (where traffic starts to split out from the three lane road to enter Civic).
.

Your comment regarding merging baffles me. I see many people stop on the merging lane southbound on the cotter road intersection. I’ve never had an issue, but I’m also capable at merging at 100km/h also. Which is where half the issues come in and that is, drivers skills are not getting updated and checked on, so they lower speed limits.

Another arguement I am tempted to suggest is, if a road is signposted at 80, and someone is required to continually monitor their speed limit to ensure they stay at 80, versus someone who drives 90 or 100 on a road that is able to take that speed yet are also more attentive to whats going on and not speedo watching, which is the safer driver? I’d argue worst case that they both probably break and stop pretty close to each other.

s-s-a said :

Great article, good points and good on you for making such an effort on this.

With the video though, your contention that 100% of the vehicles are exceeding the speed limit is going too far. *Of course* all the vehicles overtaking you are exceeding the speed limit. All of the other vehicles driving at approx the speed limit will not be seen by you except at a relatively static distance ahead (eg the ute ahead of you at 2:40-3:20 and there are a few cars ahead in your 2nd northbound run that are gaining ground on you but only just). Yes 22 cars overtook you, and I agree that the speed limit is stupid, but how many cars used the GDE in that period?

I realise it was a very simplistic independent “audit” that I carried out (if it can even be called that).

Unfortunately I did not have any traffic counters or radar gun, so they only way I could measure traffic speed was to drive the road and count how many vehicles I passed at 80 km/h, vs how many passed me.

I also noticed the ute after I’d compiled the video. It was too late by then, I was not going to edit things again! At that point in the video I had not yet set the cruise control, and as I was yabbering to the camera, I absent mindedly stuck at the ute’s 72 – 75 km/h speed. So yes maybe the tally at the end of the video should have read that 22 out of 23 vehicles that I saw in my two runs of the GDE weren’t adhering to the speed limit… still, if 95.5% of people are breaking the law, it is the law that is wrong, not the people.

That said, there were a number of vehicles that merged onto the GDE ahead of me in the video, and clearly pulled away from me (hence also exceeding the 80 km/h speed limit). For simplicity’s sake, I did not include those vehicles in the tally.

If the speed limit on the entire length of the GDE was a realistic maximum safe speed for the road, then travelling at the speed limit, I should have overtaken at least a handful of vehicles!

good article. that road is super safe, you can easily go 140km/h on the GDE (i know as i observed someone else doing it)

qbngeek said :

$410 per 1000 people or $0.41 for each individual per day based on the average australian wage rate. If you drive down there twice a day, Monday – Friday for 52 weeks in a year it would add up to $213.20. Not a lot when you think about it.

Per person. If 20000 people use that road, then we are talking 20k * $213.20 = $4,264,000.

Are we as the ACT economy happy that someone (?) made the decision to lower the speed limit from that it was designed for, resulting a cost of four million dollars in lost productivity?

So the GDE gets the same speed limit as the Parkes Way roundabouts. I recall reading that the Majura Parkway will also get a signposted limit of 80km/h but will be built to a 100km/h standard.

troll-sniffer said :

All the self-righteous posters here who insist on pointing out that if you don’t go faster then the posted limit you won’t have a problem might just as well be fast asleep for all the notice they’ve taken of the point of this post.

You probably still won’t get it, either by choice or by being narrow-minded and relatively ignorant, but the point is that speed limits should be consistent and make sense. The speed limit on the GDE fails on both counts.

Human psychology being what it is, and no amount of self-opinionated bleating can change our fundamental human traits, a large percentage of drivers will react to inappropriate speed limits not by being ultra-observant and careful not to disobey the sign, but by subconsciously realising that the limits are to be taken with a grain of salt and mostly ignored to a certain degree. This then leads to inappropriate penalties, counter-productive to safe driving practices, and the system becomes nothing more than a blatant daily neon-lit sign of bureaucratic incompetence, to be noted rather than respected.

Troll-sniffer’s nailed it, as he usually does.

The government’s reasons for setting the 80 kph limit are pure self-serving bull****, the limit is clearly aimed at maximising potential profit from the proposed point to point cameras.

devils_advocate said :

What happens when you multiply that amount of delay by the number of people delayed each morning/evening, and then multiply that number by a dollar figure representing the value of time lost? What is the estimate of aggregate lost productivity?

PS great article.

$410 per 1000 people or $0.41 for each individual per day based on the average australian wage rate. If you drive down there twice a day, Monday – Friday for 52 weeks in a year it would add up to $213.20. Not a lot when you think about it.

Personally I can live with setting my cruise control on 80, even though it feels ridiculously slow on this brand new open road.

The thing that’s going to be annoying is the overly cautious/paranoid people doing about 70-75 in the right-hand lane because they are worried about getting pinged by the point-to-point system.

I’d like to see the same speed limit applied for the GDE up to Ginninderra drive as is applied for the Tuggeranong Parkway from Glenloch Interchange all the way down to Drakeford Drive. Down that end it’s a four lane road with concrete divider. Up along the GDE it’s dual carriage way with two cable fences separating the carriageways.

The whole stretch of road could be set to 90km/h which would help people merging in from Lady Denman Drive Southbound onto the Parkway, or merging in from the Cotter Road onto the Northbound Parkway. This would also help peak time congestion since Parkes Way is 90km/h up to the first overpass in Civic (where traffic starts to split out from the three lane road to enter Civic).

It would be nice to be able to set my cruise control once for the entire stretch of road. Even with the change to 80km/h at the Lady Denman Drive intersection (well, it’s actually a different street called Forest Drive these days, which intersects with LDD a hundred metres off the Parkway), there is not enough variation in speed to give my ankle a rest, so using cruise control is more sensible from a health perspective.

Fewer speed changes means more consistent flow of traffic, while lowering the overall limit on Tuggeranong Parkway will ensure that traffic approaching the Glenloch Interchange is more spread out to start with, since they’ll have spread out by about a minute in the drive from Kambah, given usual inaccuracies in speedometers.

For me, standing up for consistent speed zoning is a case of nipping autocracy in the bud.

Another piece of withering intelectual analysis from Jimbo, seriously dude why do you bother ?

All you come on here for is to shout at people who don’t blindly follow the Greens.

troll-sniffer said :

All the self-righteous posters … narrow-minded and relatively ignorant, … self-opinionated bleating

Dear Pot,

You are black.

Regards,

Kettle.

devils_advocate said :

arescarti42 said :

jake555 said :

I hope the argument isn’t time saved, because you’re looking at a whole 45 seconds difference over the 9km stretch.

I was going to raise the same point. Some people must value time extremely highly if they’re willing to risk a $157 fine to save 45 seconds.

What happens when you multiply that amount of delay by the number of people delayed each morning/evening, and then multiply that number by a dollar figure representing the value of time lost? What is the estimate of aggregate lost productivity?

PS great article.

There’s also the issue of how everyone taking a bit longer to complete the stretch impacts traffic build up at exit points, and along the road itself.

arescarti42 said :

jake555 said :

I hope the argument isn’t time saved, because you’re looking at a whole 45 seconds difference over the 9km stretch.

I was going to raise the same point. Some people must value time extremely highly if they’re willing to risk a $157 fine to save 45 seconds.

What happens when you multiply that amount of delay by the number of people delayed each morning/evening, and then multiply that number by a dollar figure representing the value of time lost? What is the estimate of aggregate lost productivity?

PS great article.

All the self-righteous posters here who insist on pointing out that if you don’t go faster then the posted limit you won’t have a problem might just as well be fast asleep for all the notice they’ve taken of the point of this post.

You probably still won’t get it, either by choice or by being narrow-minded and relatively ignorant, but the point is that speed limits should be consistent and make sense. The speed limit on the GDE fails on both counts.

Human psychology being what it is, and no amount of self-opinionated bleating can change our fundamental human traits, a large percentage of drivers will react to inappropriate speed limits not by being ultra-observant and careful not to disobey the sign, but by subconsciously realising that the limits are to be taken with a grain of salt and mostly ignored to a certain degree. This then leads to inappropriate penalties, counter-productive to safe driving practices, and the system becomes nothing more than a blatant daily neon-lit sign of bureaucratic incompetence, to be noted rather than respected.

jake555 said :

I hope the argument isn’t time saved, because you’re looking at a whole 45 seconds difference over the 9km stretch.

I was going to raise the same point. Some people must value time extremely highly if they’re willing to risk a $157 fine to save 45 seconds.

However, having driven along the new bit of road on Sunday, I do agree that 90-100km/h would be more appropriate.

I agree with others that you make a good case but unfortunately the video fails to demonstrate which drivers comply and which do not comply with the speed limit (it only proves that 100 % of cars that over-take you exceed the limit because you are driving at 80 km/hour).

Your strongest argument I think is that previously a 90 km/hour limit had been announced which means that drivers may be expecting the limit to be 90 rather than 80.
It is odd that some of the busiest roads which are designed for high-speed travel end up being 80 and some of the more precarious roads allow the same limit.

What is the point in introducing an extension if the travel times between North and South will only be marginally improved?

If point-to-points are being introduced already, it’s obvious that a 10 km reduction in the original speed limit is an attempt to raise revenue and book frustrated drivers. Threepaws – We all want drivers to drive safely and abide by the law. That’s the whole point of this post. Fines don’t prevent all speeding.

I kind of get where you’re coming from. It’s somewhat annoying to drive slower than seems necessary.

What I don’t get is why anyone would make such an issue about saving 45 seconds. That is the difference between driving 80 and 90kph on a 9km stretch of road.

I hope the argument isn’t time saved, because you’re looking at a whole 45 seconds difference over the 9km stretch.
 
90km/h = 1.5km every minute, which equates to 9km in 6 minutes.
 
80km/h = 1.333km every minute, which equates to 9km in 6.75 minutes, or 6m 45s.
 
Fair point though, and I understand it’s the principle (or to use a famous phrase –  the Vibe….of it….)

Thanks, Sarge! I agree wholeheartedly with your point, despite your logic being flawed. 80km/h is really about 50km/h slower than would be safe for that road, but nonetheless, my cruise control works perfectly well at 80km/h, and so does my ankle joint, so I have two means by which to comply with our nanny’s ridiculous limit!

Reprobate said :

threepaws said :

Speeding fines are a choice. Don’t break the law, and you never have to see one.

Sigh.

If you read the article, you would see that Sgt Bungers is not advocating breaking the law, rather that the law (or in this case a speed limit set below the national standard set for this road layout) is an ass. While we should not exceed the posted limit, we can question whether that limit is appropriate.

He does say that people will ‘choose a speed that they perceive to be safe’. If that chosen speed is above the posted limit, then they have chosen to break the law (irrespective of whether they feel the limit is appropriate) and they have chosen to take part in revenue raising if they cop a fine.

Of course, question the limit and good luck to you getting it increased – but just because people do go fast doesn’t necessarily mean they should be able to go fast.

The fact that so many fines are issued, surely should mean that something needs to change?

threepaws said :

If aren’t sufficiently skilled to stick to the speed limit, please avoid school zones and roadworks for the safety of the children and workers.

Do you believe that roadwork zones should be 40km/hr 24/7 during roadworks?

What about school zones being 40km/hr at 11am when every non-truant student is in school?

Do you believe that in torrential rain, a ‘skilled driver’ should drive at the posted speed limit, rather than using their skills and knowlege of other roadways and conditions, to adjust their speed appropriately?

In order – yes, due to changes in road conditions which may be significant (lane widths, directions etc). To go one step further I think Canada have a good system – speed fines double when workers are present.

Yes, because kids still play outside and not all schools are fenced.

I should have said ‘not exceed the posted speed limit’.

People speed no matter what the limit. If the limit is raised to 90, people will just drive at 100. Hence my opinion that if you choose speed, don’t complain when you cop a fine.

threepaws said :

Speeding fines are a choice. Don’t break the law, and you never have to see one.

Sigh.

If you read the article, you would see that Sgt Bungers is not advocating breaking the law, rather that the law (or in this case a speed limit set below the national standard set for this road layout) is an ass. While we should not exceed the posted limit, we can question whether that limit is appropriate.

Personally I agree that an 80 limit on a fresh dual lane road such as the GDE is too low. However, you lost all credibility by claiming 100% non compliance with the speed limit when your video clearly showed vehicles obeying the speed limit.

threepaws said :

Speeding fines are a choice. Don’t break the law, and you never have to see one.

I just returned from a 2-week trip to QLD. Almost the entire drive, I found speed limits nicely matching the road conditions, for over 3000km of roadway. Then I arrived back in Canberra, and found myself having to watch the speedo and speed signs, rather than just driving to the conditions (which for the past 3000km has left me slighty under or just on the speed limit). A few little quirks like Parkes Way quietly changing to 80km/hr nearly caught me out.

threepaws said :

Perhaps if Canberra was the type of place where very few speeding fines were issued, your argument would carry more weight. This would indicate that drivers were sufficiently skilled at driving at the posted speed limit under different road conditions.

The thing is, why should drivers have to drive to the posted limit under different road conditions? If the road conditions are significantly different, why shouldnt the posted limit reflect that? As an experienced driver, if a road is in good condition, I drive at one speed, if there is dirt, rain, a steep hill or a sharp corner, I adjust my speed according to the road conditions. The question is, why arent the posted signs doing the same? The fact that so many fines are issued, surely should mean that something needs to change?

threepaws said :

If aren’t sufficiently skilled to stick to the speed limit, please avoid school zones and roadworks for the safety of the children and workers.

Do you believe that roadwork zones should be 40km/hr 24/7 during roadworks?

What about school zones being 40km/hr at 11am when every non-truant student is in school?

Do you believe that in torrential rain, a ‘skilled driver’ should drive at the posted speed limit, rather than using their skills and knowlege of other roadways and conditions, to adjust their speed appropriately?

threepaws said :

So in a nutshell, people choose to break they law by driving at a speed that ‘they perceive to be safe’, and then complain when they take part in ‘revenue raising’ by copping a speeding fine.

Speeding fines are a choice. Don’t break the law, and you never have to see one.

Perhaps if Canberra was the type of place where very few speeding fines were issued, your argument would carry more weight. This would indicate that drivers were sufficiently skilled at driving at the posted speed limit under different road conditions.

If aren’t sufficiently skilled to stick to the speed limit, please avoid school zones and roadworks for the safety of the children and workers, and perhaps consider public transport or a bike. I hear Canberra has some wonderful bike lanes…

threepaws… I have crossed to the dark side on this one. I am one of those who is always on here arguing that people should just stick to speed limits and not complain about getting a fine when they choose to break the law.

However, after test driving the new Gungahlin Drive, I honestly cannot see any reason for the 80 zone other than to catch people with the point to point cameras. I know I will never get a fine on it, because I will obey the law and drive at the posted speed. However, to drive at 80 along the stretch of Gungahlin Drive described in the article takes a real conscious effort and you end up having to keep one eye on the speedo the whole time to ensure that you don’t creep over the limit.

I am all for the police enforcing speed limits and I agree with most limits on Canberra roads. I have very little time for people who complain about speed cameras. If you ask me, we should have lots more, particularly of the camouflaged variety – if people know there is a good chance their speed will be secretly checked while they are driving they will be less likely to speed. As it stands, the big white vans on the side of the road are very visible and many people speed with impunity, only slowing down when they see a van.

However, the limit on the GDE and the use of point to point cameras along this section does harm to our cause. It simply helps prove the argument that speed cameras are about revenue raising and not improving road safety. It will add to a further erosion of the respect people have for our road laws. If, like me, you support strong enforcement of road rules and severe punishments for those who break them, you must also support the speed limits being set at a reasonable level.

s-s-a said :

Great article, good points and good on you for making such an effort on this.

With the video though, your contention that 100% of the vehicles are exceeding the speed limit is going too far. *Of course* all the vehicles overtaking you are exceeding the speed limit. All of the other vehicles driving at approx the speed limit will not be seen by you except at a relatively static distance ahead (eg the ute ahead of you at 2:40-3:20 and there are a few cars ahead in your 2nd northbound run that are gaining ground on you but only just). Yes 22 cars overtook you, and I agree that the speed limit is stupid, but how many cars used the GDE in that period?

Also agree, good article, and video and yes those overtaking would be 100% non compliant but you have to add in those behind that are compliant. I would totally agree that this road should be 90km/h though there is a difference between to two freeways, Tuggeranong parkway and Gungahlin Drive, the ‘on road cycle lanes’ . You could say the reason for the lower speed limit is the decision to put unprotected cycle lanes on the ‘high speed high volume roads’ when there isn’t along the Tuggeranong parkway.
It doesn’t make much difference to the outcome of the cyclist when hit by a motor vehicle at speeds between 80km/h and 100km/h particularly crossing the exit lanes without grade separation which is the most dangerous part.
Parts of Monaro highway are 100km/h with a cycle lane, (paved shoulder),absolute stupidity by ACT Roads, so you could also argue against that reason.

http://vimeo.com/6271307

Good article, which will no doubt generate some discussion.

I drove it this morning, the traffic cruised comfortably at 90-95 and moved across to the left for the merging traffic without slowing down. Excellent pleasant trip on a nice road.

Didn’t see a single person doing 80, the funny thing is when you turn off into Parkes Way the bit below lake level where the Black ice can form and is quite dangerous for the unaware is signposted 90kph.

Frigging retards…..

So in a nutshell, people choose to break they law by driving at a speed that ‘they perceive to be safe’, and then complain when they take part in ‘revenue raising’ by copping a speeding fine.

Speeding fines are a choice. Don’t break the law, and you never have to see one.

Perhaps if Canberra was the type of place where very few speeding fines were issued, your argument would carry more weight. This would indicate that drivers were sufficiently skilled at driving at the posted speed limit under different road conditions.

If aren’t sufficiently skilled to stick to the speed limit, please avoid school zones and roadworks for the safety of the children and workers, and perhaps consider public transport or a bike. I hear Canberra has some wonderful bike lanes…

Great article, good points and good on you for making such an effort on this.

With the video though, your contention that 100% of the vehicles are exceeding the speed limit is going too far. *Of course* all the vehicles overtaking you are exceeding the speed limit. All of the other vehicles driving at approx the speed limit will not be seen by you except at a relatively static distance ahead (eg the ute ahead of you at 2:40-3:20 and there are a few cars ahead in your 2nd northbound run that are gaining ground on you but only just). Yes 22 cars overtook you, and I agree that the speed limit is stupid, but how many cars used the GDE in that period?