Light rail extension routes identified

note that there is nothing from Woden to Tuggeranong although Athllon Drive has ample space and a slight gradient. Wonder why Tuggeranites are unhappy with the Govt?

Viable as a stage 4 John? Sure, and I support that. But you can’t argue this would be the best use of money for the Stage 2, the Woden to Tuggers link will come eventually, but it objectively its not high enough priority for Stage 2 when there are other possible stage 2 routes that would service more people and deserve to be built first.

note that there is nothing from Woden to Tuggeranong although Athllon Drive has ample space and a slight gradient. Wonder why Tuggeranites are unhappy with the Govt?

Probably because Woden to Tuggeranong is still single lane for at least half of it.
Light rail could be used as a tool to turn useless land along that corridor into very profitable land.
Instead we increase the price of land developers own at a cost to the rest of us?

Perhaps a decent bus service will make the south side happy, however they wont get anything unless things change.

I have a question:
“By the end of this year there will be 400,000 living in Canberra, and in the next 20 years our population is set to increase by a third, with almost 500,000 people”

If we have to plan for transport for this 100,000 people, why aren’t we also investing in jobs for these people? What does Canberra actually export?

note that there is nothing from Woden to Tuggeranong although Athllon Drive has ample space and a slight gradient. Wonder why Tuggeranites are unhappy with the Govt?

“This was never about public transport it was and still is about revenue raising by selling land and putting ticky tacky boxes all over it.”

Ok so can you then please deduct that revenue from the build cost of the light rail estimate thank you !

Whilst your at it please deduct all ongoing rates gained from all of the current and estimated development along the route against the ongoing running cost of the project. For the same period of time that the “Nominal Cost Value” has been estimated over to get to that cost figure please.

Then you need to deduct asset recycling funding and any government asset sale revenue generated that we have been forced to sell (That is no longer federally mandated) to receive that 67 million in Federal government funding. Remember to further deduct any estimated ticket revenue over that time frame. Then deduct the entire “Nominal Value Cost” estimate over that entire period for the ACT liberal complete transport project. (If you can find it good luck with that one)

What ever is left then ok lets argue about the cost of this to the ACT budget over the length of the Public Private agreement. Then and only then would this Nominal Value crap be even close to a fair comparison of the “Actual” out of pocket expenses that would be having to be sourced from rate payers.

They you will have to deduct the rates payed by everyone in the North who pays rates that are directed towards the light rail project. Because we need to remember that the only rates payed in dispute here are South siders who may or may not ever use the light rail service.

It is important to remember that the Liberal transport plan figure has to start at negative 200 million dollars so every cost is in excess of that figure. If they can work out a figure (I would be surprised if anyone could work it out) but anyway that is at least the official initial figure it would cost in Light rail cancellation costs.

I know that the only costings put forward are based on the Labor party’s original comparison estimate way back when they applied to the Federal government infrastructure body. A separated bus lane from Gungahlin to civic from memory was to cost around $300 million.

I should clarify Mr Coe has not yet identified if he would spend a dime on any upgrades to Flemmington road and that is pretty laughable because there in no hope in hell that road will hold the projected traffic capacity to allow his express buses to operate as he has indicated. That is why I call them flying buses because that is the only logical way they could be called an express bus service.

Quote from the Minister Assisting the Chief Minister on Transport Reform, Shane Rattenbury : “The short-sighted Liberal scheme does not consider the realities of our growing city. If their ‘express’ buses are really to avoid traffic and be express, they need priority or separation, which the scheme does not fund”

Sydney Morning Herald on the subject of the viability of the Liberal claims to the ability to create a Gungahlin to Civic express bus service.
“But there is no apparent analysis behind the claim of “Travel from Gungahlin to the City … up to 10 minutes faster than light rail.” This claim would be barely credible for a pre-dawn express service that is unlikely to attract a handful of passengers. It is completely implausible for any peak-hour bus service”

So your already at $500 million right there !

Correction you also stand to lose the $67 million in asset recycling so actually that figure would be closer to $567 Million dollars.

And I know Shane Rattenbury laughed at the transport shadow Minister Coe’s lack of basic transport plan costings. Mainly for one because he had neglected to even consider the fact that the current bus depots are at max capacity so if he wanted to implement his alternate plan they would first need to factor in building another bus depot somewhere ?

Correction Shane is quoted as saying the new bus depot just the depot would cost around $25 million dollars alone. (Quote on this from a city news article on the subject from Mr Rattenbury)

“Buses need somewhere to park and be maintained: a new depot costs $25m, which they haven’t even considered, let alone funded. No wonder they have already had to admit they don’t know when they will actually do any of this.”

And you need to add the cost of the new fleet of super express buses and costs associated with introducing six new rapid bus routes and free friday travel for the entire capital bus network and the associated expenses that go with this. I don’t know what you could place that figure at another 50 – 100 million who knows ?

So I mean you add this together with the above and well you get my point about the reality of the situation.

Masquara said :

The m$700 (which was originally m$614 that ACT Labor took to the 2014 ACT LA election as I recall (?)…….

That should be 2012 ACT LA election, not 2014.

gooterz said :

Southerly_views said :

Maybe use the existing bus lane around the hill and down to Woden.

And where will the buses go ??? Into car lanes so further increasing congestion ??

Oh, that’s right, I forgot that the express buses will be abolished when/if the tram takes over.

Hahaha, you gotta laugh at this solution based spin.

For the same price per KM we could have had a bullet train.

I note from the article that they have surveyed 6,000 people, but that survey was hardly from a statistically random section of the community, the survey was seriously lacking in academic rigour. As a result the results are of very doubtful validity. From my observation/involvement, there were no options to state that trams were not the correct solution to Canberra’s needs. There is no discussion within that report regarding objections to the tram option that I could find. To claim that this is “consultation” is frankly disingenuous, however so is a lot of other “consultations” as those who have tried in the past to participate have found out.

For a bit of light relief look up the “yes minister” segment on survey design. Google “you tube yes prime minister leading question”. It is very clever, funny & very informative all at the same time, I wish I could write that well! It is even used in at least one university course for survey design students, enjoy.

Southerly_views said :

Maybe use the existing bus lane around the hill and down to Woden.

And where will the buses go ??? Into car lanes so further increasing congestion ?? Oh, that’s right, I forgot that the express buses will be abolished when/if the tram takes over.

Hahaha, you gotta laugh at this solution based spin.

crackerpants said :

Point 1 $700m was the construction cost which is still very much about right. The headline figure low quoted includes the 20 year operating cost but does not factor in fare box revenue.

Point 4 yes bridges cost money but so what? The Majura parkway has two substantial bridges, a massive viaduct and many minor bridges for a cost of $288m. So maybe not prohibit let expensive.

The m$700 (which was originally m$614 that ACT Labor took to the 2014 ACT LA election as I recall (?), was just a ruse by the ACT Labor/Greens Govt to suck in voters. They could have and should have factored in the estimated running costs and published that (much higher) figure instead. There is plenty of overseas and Ox experience with trams that would have enabled such a est. running costs figure to have been included along with construction costs. But ACT voters/Ratepayers could not see that amoungst all the spin and obfuscation by ACT Labor/Greens and their rusted on supporters and will now pay the price.

And to compare the bridges on the Majura Parkway to what would be necessary to carry trams across lake Burley Griffin, is a nonsense.

dungfungus said :

1. There is no 1.8 billion dollars. It’s 64m a year for 20 years. Dont buy into their wacky economics.
2. Of course
3. Both bridges are able to carry a light rail line with no structural modifications

Re (1) : So, you are right @ m$64pa for 20 yrs (= b$1.280) but the ACT Auditor Generals b$1.8 is “wacky economics” ???? Bizarre. That’s just more ACT Greens/Labor obfuscation of the true cost of the tram to Ratepayers. The b$1.8 is what Ratepayers will be forking out.

Re (2) : As I understand it, that is correct. However, it takes away one lane of traffic in each direction. That will be congestion madness. Better to build a new tram bridge next to Commonwealth/Kings Ave bridges, which will be at tremendous cost.

BenjaminRose1991 said :

We will be stuck paying for it for decades to come.

Unless we vote the Liberals in.

dungfungus said :

bj_ACT said :

Rachel Ziv said :

Doesn’t anyone in Tuggeranong need access to this public transport link too? Apparently only the needs of one half of the city are catered for with this plan.

I would be comparatively happy if one half of the transport needs of the ACT were being met by this scheme!
The reality is that all ACT needs better Public Transport. This folly will supply Public Transport initially for 2% and if fully rolled out, for a maximum of 10% of the community. That’s just on the north side!
That’s not Public Transport in my definition of PT!

As well as that, when you’re voting in a little while, remember :
1. the current cost for the first 12km is $1.8Bil, (Auditor General’s figures) up from the original $0.7Bil they told us
2. to get to Tuggeranong, it will need to cross the Lake.
3. the bridge won’t hold the tram line as extra, (Chief Engineer) so one lane of traffic in each direction will have to be converted to tram instead of cars, buses, taxis, trade vehicles (including emergency vehicles – ambulance, fire etc) or
4. they’ll have to build more bridges – think $$$$$$$$$$ or
5. go via Parkes Way to Tuggers – is there space? especially through the tunnels? how long will Parkway traffic be out of action since we know how efficiently roadworks get done in the ACT
6. we do not know exactly what contracts have been signed, because our government won’t disclose. There is no reason for us not to know, as there is no reason for commercial in confidence once contracts are signed. The only reason I can see for not publishing, is that the politicians envolved do not want us to be aware before we decide where to put our votes
7. unless there has been some major inflation of the cancellation costs beyond what is usual in these contracts, the cancellation cannot be anywhere near what it will cost us to continue with the first stage, let alone the second!
8. it’s not as though all the options were considered in the first place – this was never about Public Transport. It was & still is all about revenue raising by selling land & putting “ticky-tacky boxes” all over it.

It would be very useful to have answers to everyone’s SPECIFIC questions from the government members of the Assembly (most of us have read Don Watson on Weasel Words)

I’m not sure how Tuggeranong is being ignored. If there is no stage two, how do we connect Tuggeranong to the network? It’s a classic poor me whinge.

The stage two proposals are the four most requested/highest priority routes from the LRNP. The intention is to eventually build all routes. Each route must be subjected to a business case before being approved.

1. There is no 1.8 billion dollars. It’s 64m a year for 20 years. Dont buy into their wacky economics.
2. Of course
3. Both bridges are able to carry a light rail line with no structural modifications
4. See 3
5. Speculation
6. speculation
7. speculation
8. nonsense and mistruths

It is not $64m for 20 years. The total contractual payments from the government to the consortium over 20 years comes to $1.655b, or an average of $82.75m per year to build and operate the tram. On top of that the government has and is incurring additional costs with regards to Capital Metro, consultants and other expenses that are on top of that $1.655b. The ACT bus system operates on a subsidy of about $100-120m p.a. to provide public transport to all of Canberra, and the tram route is going to take over one of the more heavily travelled routes, meaning that we’re unlikely to see any savings on the bus subsidy. There is a big payment scheduled to go to the consortium as soon as construction finishes, which will need to be borrowed by the ACT, so there’s also going to be 20 years interest on $300m+ on top of the consortium payments. The increasing size of the annual payments towards the end of the contractual period suggest that even in 20 years time the tram will still be running at a loss. It is a financial disaster waiting to happen for the taxpayers of the ACT, and if Labor is re-elected and builds stage 2, its only going to get worse.

Hardly anyone believed the Liberals campaign last time about rates being set to triple in around 10 years under Labor, but here we are 4 years later with 4 years of big rates increases, and even this year with what Barr calls a low rates increase, its still 3 times the rate of inflation before factoring in new levies. My fear is that enough people won’t believe the massive cost that will be imposed due to light rail when they vote this year, but it will become apparent over the next 4 years but by then it will be too late. We will be stuck paying for it for decades to come.

bj_ACT said :

Rachel Ziv said :

Doesn’t anyone in Tuggeranong need access to this public transport link too? Apparently only the needs of one half of the city are catered for with this plan.

I would be comparatively happy if one half of the transport needs of the ACT were being met by this scheme!
The reality is that all ACT needs better Public Transport. This folly will supply Public Transport initially for 2% and if fully rolled out, for a maximum of 10% of the community. That’s just on the north side!
That’s not Public Transport in my definition of PT!

As well as that, when you’re voting in a little while, remember :
1. the current cost for the first 12km is $1.8Bil, (Auditor General’s figures) up from the original $0.7Bil they told us
2. to get to Tuggeranong, it will need to cross the Lake.
3. the bridge won’t hold the tram line as extra, (Chief Engineer) so one lane of traffic in each direction will have to be converted to tram instead of cars, buses, taxis, trade vehicles (including emergency vehicles – ambulance, fire etc) or
4. they’ll have to build more bridges – think $$$$$$$$$$ or
5. go via Parkes Way to Tuggers – is there space? especially through the tunnels? how long will Parkway traffic be out of action since we know how efficiently roadworks get done in the ACT
6. we do not know exactly what contracts have been signed, because our government won’t disclose. There is no reason for us not to know, as there is no reason for commercial in confidence once contracts are signed. The only reason I can see for not publishing, is that the politicians envolved do not want us to be aware before we decide where to put our votes
7. unless there has been some major inflation of the cancellation costs beyond what is usual in these contracts, the cancellation cannot be anywhere near what it will cost us to continue with the first stage, let alone the second!
8. it’s not as though all the options were considered in the first place – this was never about Public Transport. It was & still is all about revenue raising by selling land & putting “ticky-tacky boxes” all over it.

It would be very useful to have answers to everyone’s SPECIFIC questions from the government members of the Assembly (most of us have read Don Watson on Weasel Words)

Point 1 $700m was the construction cost which is still very much about right. The headline figure low quoted includes the 20 year operating cost but does not factor in fare box revenue.

Point 4 yes bridges cost money but so what? The Majura parkway has two substantial bridges, a massive viaduct and many minor bridges for a cost of $288m. So maybe not prohibit let expensive.

Deref said :

Where does the tram go after it crosses the bridge? there isn’t much room around state circle and I’m not sure the feds would allow people to go digging up their hill.

The whole thing seems contrived. It wouldn’t cost that much to plan out the first few phases of the route before building.

The fact that there is no definite stage 2 shows they have no planning and just going with the flow.

You say that stage 2 should be selected on the business case, when the business case failed for stage one. With a bus route giving the best cost benefit ratio.

Even if the tram can pass over the bridge how is it going to do it without causing endless accidents.
At least the tram in Adelaide isn’t on or near a road for the best part of its journey.

Maybe use the existing bus lane around the hill and down to Woden.

wildturkeycanoe said :

I think there are some technical issues to be overcome to get a tram out to the airport and Belconnen.
From what I could find [correct me if I am wrong], the catenary cables for a tram need to be about 6m above the ground, in Victoria the bare minimum is 5.64M. The Majura Parkway and King’s Avenue underpasses on Morshead Drive are only 5.4M [hard to find hard data on these via internet] and I wonder how high the GDE Aranda overpass is? How can we get the tram under these bridges? I think we will need to go solar or wireless.
I think Fairbairn and Constitution Avenues would be a better route [except for going under Majura Parkway again], but I doubt any of these options will go ahead anyway, because we will have no money to make it happen.
The work to get it through to Belconnen town center and to Kippax would be enormous. Widening the pathway, working its way through College St and Lathlain St alone is going to take decades. What about Barry Drive and the confusion around the university, it will be a planners nightmare.
After the chaos and cost blowouts of the first stage, we will see the rest of these plans thrown into the bin anyway.

Most of your issues are non issues. Re wire height the maximum load height that can be carried by a vehicle without permit is 4.3m but structures including wires need to be a minimum of 4.6m to give a safety buffer.

So no issues with 5.4m bridges. The overhead can be dropped to around 5 to clear these bridges and still maintain a safe clearance for vehicles crossing underneath.

None of this is new or earth shattering. As some will point out (where are you dunggers?) trams use 100 year old technology, so been plenty of time to sort out engineering issues such as going under a bridge!

Deref said :

Where does the tram go after it crosses the bridge? there isn’t much room around state circle and I’m not sure the feds would allow people to go digging up their hill.

The whole thing seems contrived. It wouldn’t cost that much to plan out the first few phases of the route before building.

The fact that there is no definite stage 2 shows they have no planning and just going with the flow.

You say that stage 2 should be selected on the business case, when the business case failed for stage one. With a bus route giving the best cost benefit ratio.

Even if the tram can pass over the bridge how is it going to do it without causing endless accidents.
At least the tram in Adelaide isn’t on or near a road for the best part of its journey.

Gee how do trams worldwide manage to co-exist with cars on the same road without causing endless accidents? Oh my, oh my, I think it’s called road rules, the same thing that keeps all the cars from crashing into each other all the time. Main threat to trams is horses anyway, not other cars, according to Melbourne trams anyway.

While I never thought I would see the day, it seems light rail is actually going to arrive in reactionary Canberra. This is a gamechanger for a town so long addicted to using two tonne cages to conduct most urban transport. People may now start going back to interacting positively with their fellow human beings, rather than being a cardigan clad Neville Nobody in their beige Camry or Commondore maximising the use of road space or fuel.

I have been reading the guff on these futuristic pods that are on the horizon. I seem to recall them being on the horizon when the Jetsons was on prime time television. In summary, great idea but show us the completed product and tell us how an automated pod is going to reduce congestion and make parking easier to find. I suggest the proponents are still watching repeats of the Jetsons.

Back to light rail, I have very little faith in the ACT government to get this right. After all, they have a long record of mediocrity. Trouble is, the alternative does not inspire either.

Where does the tram go after it crosses the bridge? there isn’t much room around state circle and I’m not sure the feds would allow people to go digging up their hill.

The whole thing seems contrived. It wouldn’t cost that much to plan out the first few phases of the route before building.

The fact that there is no definite stage 2 shows they have no planning and just going with the flow.

You say that stage 2 should be selected on the business case, when the business case failed for stage one. With a bus route giving the best cost benefit ratio.

Even if the tram can pass over the bridge how is it going to do it without causing endless accidents.
At least the tram in Adelaide isn’t on or near a road for the best part of its journey.

bj_ACT said :

Rachel Ziv said :

Doesn’t anyone in Tuggeranong need access to this public transport link too? Apparently only the needs of one half of the city are catered for with this plan.

I would be comparatively happy if one half of the transport needs of the ACT were being met by this scheme!
The reality is that all ACT needs better Public Transport. This folly will supply Public Transport initially for 2% and if fully rolled out, for a maximum of 10% of the community. That’s just on the north side!
That’s not Public Transport in my definition of PT!

As well as that, when you’re voting in a little while, remember :
1. the current cost for the first 12km is $1.8Bil, (Auditor General’s figures) up from the original $0.7Bil they told us
2. to get to Tuggeranong, it will need to cross the Lake.
3. the bridge won’t hold the tram line as extra, (Chief Engineer) so one lane of traffic in each direction will have to be converted to tram instead of cars, buses, taxis, trade vehicles (including emergency vehicles – ambulance, fire etc) or
4. they’ll have to build more bridges – think $$$$$$$$$$ or
5. go via Parkes Way to Tuggers – is there space? especially through the tunnels? how long will Parkway traffic be out of action since we know how efficiently roadworks get done in the ACT
6. we do not know exactly what contracts have been signed, because our government won’t disclose. There is no reason for us not to know, as there is no reason for commercial in confidence once contracts are signed. The only reason I can see for not publishing, is that the politicians envolved do not want us to be aware before we decide where to put our votes
7. unless there has been some major inflation of the cancellation costs beyond what is usual in these contracts, the cancellation cannot be anywhere near what it will cost us to continue with the first stage, let alone the second!
8. it’s not as though all the options were considered in the first place – this was never about Public Transport. It was & still is all about revenue raising by selling land & putting “ticky-tacky boxes” all over it.

It would be very useful to have answers to everyone’s SPECIFIC questions from the government members of the Assembly (most of us have read Don Watson on Weasel Words)

I’m not sure how Tuggeranong is being ignored. If there is no stage two, how do we connect Tuggeranong to the network? It’s a classic poor me whinge.

The stage two proposals are the four most requested/highest priority routes from the LRNP. The intention is to eventually build all routes. Each route must be subjected to a business case before being approved.

1. There is no 1.8 billion dollars. It’s 64m a year for 20 years. Dont buy into their wacky economics.
2. Of course
3. Both bridges are able to carry a light rail line with no structural modifications
4. See 3
5. Speculation
6. speculation
7. speculation
8. nonsense and mistruths

bigred said :

Sorry guys, I got fired up & said lots of stuff that was already said by others – and probably said bettter, but he chronic level ofsubtifuge over this issue (amongst others) is really starting to get under my skin . .Ugh

No need for an apol – passion is a great thing, especially when faced with the stark evidence of the tram being pushed through and the other ultra poor management and fiscal decision making by this ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t.

You just have to look at the sentiment expressed in post #16 to see what a blinkered and head in the sand attitude ACT voters and Ratepayers have though. There is already today on the radio, Ratepayers calling in to express horror at their Annual Rates bills for 2016-17, which have started to be sent out. And that’s with the 5.4% avg.(which is 1/2 what it should be and will revert to in 2017-18 !) increase being applied in this (election) year too – but includes the increased and new “levies”.

There appears to be no accountability on this ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t – they even spin what the Auditor General said in their report into the tram. Unbelievable.

Sorry guys, I got fired up & said lots of stuff that was already said by others – and probably said bettter, but he chronic level ofsubtifuge over this issue (amongst others) is really starting to get under my skin . .Ugh

Rachel Ziv said :

Doesn’t anyone in Tuggeranong need access to this public transport link too? Apparently only the needs of one half of the city are catered for with this plan.

I would be comparatively happy if one half of the transport needs of the ACT were being met by this scheme!
The reality is that all ACT needs better Public Transport. This folly will supply Public Transport initially for 2% and if fully rolled out, for a maximum of 10% of the community. That’s just on the north side!
That’s not Public Transport in my definition of PT!

As well as that, when you’re voting in a little while, remember :
1. the current cost for the first 12km is $1.8Bil, (Auditor General’s figures) up from the original $0.7Bil they told us
2. to get to Tuggeranong, it will need to cross the Lake.
3. the bridge won’t hold the tram line as extra, (Chief Engineer) so one lane of traffic in each direction will have to be converted to tram instead of cars, buses, taxis, trade vehicles (including emergency vehicles – ambulance, fire etc) or
4. they’ll have to build more bridges – think $$$$$$$$$$ or
5. go via Parkes Way to Tuggers – is there space? especially through the tunnels? how long will Parkway traffic be out of action since we know how efficiently roadworks get done in the ACT
6. we do not know exactly what contracts have been signed, because our government won’t disclose. There is no reason for us not to know, as there is no reason for commercial in confidence once contracts are signed. The only reason I can see for not publishing, is that the politicians envolved do not want us to be aware before we decide where to put our votes
7. unless there has been some major inflation of the cancellation costs beyond what is usual in these contracts, the cancellation cannot be anywhere near what it will cost us to continue with the first stage, let alone the second!
8. it’s not as though all the options were considered in the first place – this was never about Public Transport. It was & still is all about revenue raising by selling land & putting “ticky-tacky boxes” all over it.

It would be very useful to have answers to everyone’s SPECIFIC questions from the government members of the Assembly (most of us have read Don Watson on Weasel Words)

Don’t forget that there’s already been something like $20 million invested in the work of “Consultants” just to get to this point with so many questions unanswered.

I think there are some technical issues to be overcome to get a tram out to the airport and Belconnen.
From what I could find [correct me if I am wrong], the catenary cables for a tram need to be about 6m above the ground, in Victoria the bare minimum is 5.64M. The Majura Parkway and King’s Avenue underpasses on Morshead Drive are only 5.4M [hard to find hard data on these via internet] and I wonder how high the GDE Aranda overpass is? How can we get the tram under these bridges? I think we will need to go solar or wireless.
I think Fairbairn and Constitution Avenues would be a better route [except for going under Majura Parkway again], but I doubt any of these options will go ahead anyway, because we will have no money to make it happen.
The work to get it through to Belconnen town center and to Kippax would be enormous. Widening the pathway, working its way through College St and Lathlain St alone is going to take decades. What about Barry Drive and the confusion around the university, it will be a planners nightmare.
After the chaos and cost blowouts of the first stage, we will see the rest of these plans thrown into the bin anyway.

I’m delighted Labor is going to the election with a commitment to a Stage 2, and am quite confident they will be duly elected into government again with a 2nd mandate to continue the light rail network.

I notice the indicated routes are ‘preferred corridors’ – there’s no way the Belconnen route is feasible. The grade of College Street is too steep, and I’d almost wager the same for Barry Drive. The extension to Kippax also seems optimistic, and I shudder at the thought of the future West Belconnen development that will be required to justify the route.

Canberra: Going to the dogs since self government.

The election is coming up & still the govt will not tell us where the next tram stage be, surely with good planning this should have been known long ago, or is this just more of the secrecy that surrounds their actions?

Some of these routes cross the lake, how is this to occur? I have checked & it is technically impossible to take heavy “light rail” vehicles over the existing bridges without closing a traffic lane each way, this will do wonders for movement over the bridges! But we have not been told this. Do we build more bridges? Where will the cost of these be covered? In the expanded tram budget or be tucked away in a separate item somewhere else?

There are newer faster, cheaper, technologies, coming on line soon, such as autonomous cars. These go door to door so they will serve all Canberrans, not just the 10% that Metro claims (optimistically) if the full system were to be implemented. i.e. everyone would pay for autonomous cars & everyone could use them. For trams everyone pays & 90% are too far from a route for it to be useful, hardly an equitable situation.

Autonomous cars would operate 24/7 “on demand” so time tables would be a thing of the past, they would go door to door & not follow a very restricted route.

The initial capital cost of the stage 1 tram system would pay for around 16,000 autonomous cars, give or take. The cost of a fully implemented system would cover something like 150,000 cars! Given that the cars are a shared asset & we don’t need one each under such a system, that is far more than we would ever need. Autonomous cars would be a cheaper alternative.

These autonomous cars will be operational long before the trams are fully implemented. People will opt for the more convenient system, the tram system will rapidly become a very large stranded asset (probably the only rapid thing about trams).

We surely have far better & more productive ways to spend our scarce money than on a neglected, rusting, redundant rail system, which it is going to become very quickly. The govt has a 20 year contract to run stage 1, it will not be useful for anything like that long, but I am sure the contractor has a clause that will keep us paying for it long after it has ceased to be useful & people no longer use it!

The light rail construction joy has begun. Traffic at a crawl down Northbourne today – backed up from the ABC to the traffic registry. Mind you, no warning that would have allowed drivers to take an alternative route. Meegan FitzHarris needs to improve her skills so that her department manage their project better. To have traffic banked up on a Saturday at the very beginning of the tram project is a very, very bad harbinger for the next five years!

Rachel Ziv said :

Doesn’t anyone in Tuggeranong need access to this public transport link too? Apparently only the needs of one half of the city are catered for with this plan.

Tuggeranong is in a city of its own. Totally unrelated to canberra.

Doesn’t anyone in Tuggeranong need access to this public transport link too? Apparently only the needs of one half of the city are catered for with this plan.

BunLover said :

None of these will ever be built.

This is just a cynical manipulation of the 97% of Canberra missing out on the $1.1billion white elephant ride, with a dodgy promise that “one day, one day, just be patient and vote for us again…”

But that’s what Canberra thought at the last election where all we were going to do was peddle some money in setting up Captial metro, to do a cross Canberra Network, which then they said was mandated for stage 1.

“Fellas’ we just gotta have some rails down or we’ll get kicked out of office”

So either way you can’t trust the lie, and you can’t trust them not to build the whole network. Either way. The cost of the contract being torn up isn’t worth the cost of the whole network and not being able to afford to live in Canberra.

The thing about Canberra is that once we reach that magic tax mark people will start selling and moving elsewhere. At that point nothing will stop the collapse of the act market. Following that all the public servants will get up and leave as there wont be an employment market. Without the public service Canberra is a ghost town.

Much of Canberra’s income is from public service, we seem to be hedging our income with income derived from building and construction. However if the bottom falls out of the public service then there won’t be housing demand to support the construction industry.

It seems to be a race, either one of two things will happen. Sanity will prevail and we’ll get decent leadership, or the town will end up like Detroit. Population previously 1.6 million now only 0.6 Million.

“All four routes would take advantage of key landmarks, cultural institutions, education and health services and increased tourism from international flights, which start in September,” Gentleman said.

Get real Mr Gentleman, & get worthy of your name.

By the time these multi ton monsters make all those stops they’ll be slower than the current buses! Not only that, but the current buses will be being slowed down to try to give the trams space & right of way, & business vehicles (plumbers, builders, ambulances, delivery vans etc), not to mention private vehicles, will have no chance. Metro’s own Impact Statement attests to the fact that traffic will be slowed by the use of the trams.

BTW most of the tram passengers will be ex-bus passengers, not ex-car passengers. You do realise that don’t you? that’s where the tram numbers came from.

If the transport system that is instituted is to work, it has to be better than is currently availble, just as trams were better than horses when they were instituted.

Masquara said :

From the OP – quoting Mick Gentleman, Labor MLA allegedly representing Tuggeranong :

” ……a short extension to Mawson would provide a great link for the Tuggeranong community to utilise the popular Mawson Park and Ride facility on their daily commute. “

So, previously the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t said that Light Rail would extend to Tuggeranong.

It appears not for a long, long time – if ever.

Tuggeranong is just so well represented by its Labor MLAs – hopefully Gentleman will be voted out in October and that will send a message to future MLAs (of what ever persuasion) to properly and effectively represent their constituents,

I doubt that anyone in Tuggeranong who has voted for the current crop of MLA’s will be alive to see the tram get to them. Actually, I doubt it will go south of the lake, ever. The Russell bit might be built after the first stage but I can’t see it going any further.

Kim Huynh said :

Most of these routes make more sense than stage one. However what are the prices?
Light rail would be too inefficient to service a stadium.

Well, we can guess about the prices. The 12km to Gungharlin has gone up to 1.8 Bil (according to the ACT Auditor) – that’s about double where the highest estimate began . . . so take it from there – just double the biggest number they give us & know it will be at LEAST that.

As for too inefficient to service the stadium? Maximum through-put 3,000 people per hour maximum. That’s 4 hours to fill & again to empty the stadium if there are 12,000 people at an event.
Too inefficient to service the Canberra community would state it a bit more accurately I think.

Liberal Democrats said :

What is it about holes that makes some politicians keep digging?

Maybe it is hard for some of them to appreciate developments happening in the rest of the world, such as BMW, with Intel and Mobileye recently announcing they’ll operate a shared fleet of electric self-driving cars as a mobility service by 2021. [ http://bit.ly/29Vwbj7 ] BMW’s R and D budget is over 4 times that of the entire CSIRO, but it still not even in the ‘top 5’ automakers R and D budgets. The money and talent being thrown at commercialising 24×7 mobility-on-demand transport is mind-boggling, and will do for the physical movement of people and goods, what the internet did for ideas and information.

With great road infrastructure, Canberra is best placed of all Australian cities to take advantage of the opportunities for egalitarian, universal, cheap and safe transport, yet some are hell-bent on pursuing an inferior, slow, inconvenient approach completely unsuited to the urban form of Canberra.

Spot on!
Why do we have such uninspired & uninspiring bunch in government?

How many billions of dollars are we talking now?

None of these will ever be built.

This is just a cynical manipulation of the 97% of Canberra missing out on the $1.1billion white elephant ride, with a dodgy promise that “one day, one day, just be patient and vote for us again…”

From the OP – quoting Mick Gentleman, Labor MLA allegedly representing Tuggeranong :

” ……a short extension to Mawson would provide a great link for the Tuggeranong community to utilise the popular Mawson Park and Ride facility on their daily commute. “

So, previously the ACT Labor/Greens Gov’t said that Light Rail would extend to Tuggeranong. It appears not for a long, long time – if ever.

Tuggeranong is just so well represented by its Labor MLAs – hopefully Gentleman will be voted out in October and that will send a message to future MLAs (of what ever persuasion) to properly and effectively represent their constituents,

Most of these routes make more sense than stage one. However what are the prices?

Its still far too slow. Canberra should have a fast train to connect the town centres, that only stops at the town centres and maybe one stop halfway between.

Then transport just becomes a matter of getting yourself to a town centre and travelling from there.

Light rail would be too inefficient to service a stadium.

What is it about holes that makes some politicians keep digging?

Maybe it is hard for some of them to appreciate developments happening in the rest of the world, such as BMW, with Intel and Mobileye recently announcing they’ll operate a shared fleet of electric self-driving cars as a mobility service by 2021. [ http://bit.ly/29Vwbj7 ] BMW’s R and D budget is over 4 times that of the entire CSIRO, but it still not even in the ‘top 5’ automakers R and D budgets. The money and talent being thrown at commercialising 24×7 mobility-on-demand transport is mind-boggling, and will do for the physical movement of people and goods, what the internet did for ideas and information.

With great road infrastructure, Canberra is best placed of all Australian cities to take advantage of the opportunities for egalitarian, universal, cheap and safe transport, yet some are hell-bent on pursuing an inferior, slow, inconvenient approach completely unsuited to the urban form of Canberra.