Police not answerable to the public?

“using guilt like this is dangerous.”

No its not, apart from the confusing logic. It may be politically incorrect in your eyes but its pretty blatantly obvious that you don’t carry out such actions unless your suffering from some sort of mental illness or temporary insanity.

‘How could you not be to be able to hang your self to death leaving a teenage daughter to face the world without a mother.’

apart from the confusing grammer, if its her choice then it should be respected. using guilt like this is dangerous. its the sort of dangerous tactic that keeps dysfunctional marriages together ‘for the children’.

we dont know her reasons. we are all speculating. i doubt the notes will be released.

well chester i know one person with a mental disease that should be locked up. look in a mirror and you will see them.

if a person with hiv is deliberately spreading the disease, then they should be locked up.

you live in a society – to make it function ther eis a set of expected behaviours.

deliberately infecting people with a disease is not one of them. thats why attacking someone with a blood filled syringe warrants a serious charge.

It would be interesting.

The causality of disadvantage would make it tricky to draw conclusions though.

I would like some stats on people with infectious diseases and criminal histories. I’m tipping there’s a fairly high correlation.

“reported its as if she did the wrong thing, or was mentally ill.”

Damn right she was mentally ill at least temporarily. How could you not be to be able to hang your self to death leaving a teenage daughter to face the world without a mother.

I am unaware of any law that says being HIV positive is a crime bonfire. Do you really believe those disturbing comments you just made? I’m sure you’ve really brightened up the day of anybody who acquired HIV via blood transfusion.

No wonder this town is so messed up with troubled souls like you on the loose.

You’ll find standard infection control procedures which hospitals and indeed police should be adhering to, require that you treat everyone as positive. Normally the only way you can tell if someone has Hep C or HIV is if they, or someone else reveal the information.

That better JB? I’d hate for a swear word to get in the way of bonfire’s bigotry.

And have it the beacon point for suicidal teenagers ?

Media pressure was only one of the factors in the suicide, which was a multifaceted decision by her. To assume counterwise, is putting on some serious blinders.

As far as accountability to the public goes, I believe that the police should be fully accountable, due to the level of trust that has been placed in them, with extra-severe punishments because they should have known better if they decide to walk the criminal line.

There is also an expectation of frank and full disclosure, any organisation taking from the public purse should be accountable for the public money it receives. This takes the form of reporting criminals, responding to public safety, and maintaining law and order, including within their own ranks.

Some people have commented on providing examples of police dishonesty; do your own research trolls, but the CPO was not alone in the abuse of AFP contracts with the building industry, and the cheaper rates afforded to officers. There’s an example, I could troll for more if I had the desire.

I agree with your comments, jemmy. I also agree with johnboy’s response to some of the attacks made on him.

Waterford was only doing the job he is paid to do, although I do not agree with some of his defensive comments after Audrey Fagan’s death. “Too soon” as “The Chaser” would have said.

I definitely feel that ACT Policing needs more resources and a shake up of its culture. I think Audrey Fagan was trying to do that against the odds and could have done with more support from the community and particularly those more enlightened officers within ACT Police.

If the Stanhope Government spent less money on pet projects, Grassby statues, arboretums, Live in Canberra promotions, etc, then it would be able to more properly resource policing, health and education.

Speaking of statues – perhaps the Grassby statue could be melted down and re-cast as an Audrey Fagan statue for AFP Headquarters. That I would support.

on a seperate note – im amazed that the fact that fagan sucided has been glossed over – or not mentioned at all – by the media.

and when it has been reported its as if she did the wrong thing, or was mentally ill.

its generally only monotheistic societies which frown upon suicide, or make it something to be ashamed of.

and ultimately we are masters of our own lives, and if we choose to end it – for whatever reason – that is a right which should be respected.

time for your meds again chester.

people with diseases do need to be ‘discrimintaed’ against – its called ‘public health’.

thats why they are quatrantined, or locked away to prevent them doingg further harm to themselves or harm to others.

sometimes they have no idea of the harm they are causing.

a society has a duty to these people to ensure they are treated. detention and treatment – even against their will – is part of that duty.

Chester, I talk to cops all the time and I think you would be suprised how many people have diseases ie Hep C, HIV, Etc Etc.

Oh right, I see. So you believe people should be discriminated against because of a pre-existing medical condition It certainly seems you’re equating illness with criminality to me.

And I’m afraid, vandam, you’re very wrong. I’m well aware of the infection rates for the diseases you mention. I am not, however, aware, of any recognized link between those diseases and criminal behaviour.

So much for your ability to put forth a logically coherent argument that isn’t highly offensive to large numbers of people who suffer from the illnesses you refer to while being perfectly, normal law-abiding citizens.

Terry_Wrist I’ll answer your interesting question put forward earlier. Before I do though, please be aware that I am not a Copper, nor do I have the authority to comment on their behalf.

Your query was about people in uniform responding even while they are off duty. It is accepted best practice to not drive past an accident in an ambulance, nor is it acceptable to drive past an emergency scene in a SES vehicle.

There is an onus of responsibility to ensure that you do not neglect any scene you encounter. I’m making the presumption that the police have a similar policy.

Terry, If Police were still in uniform with all their stuff attached I agree, they should’ve done something. BUt again speculating without facts.

Chester, I talk to cops all the time and I think you would be suprised how many people have diseases ie Hep C, HIV, Etc Etc.

Also on response times, People have to understand that just because there is a Police Station 5 minutes away doesn’t mean there is anyone in it. Often the Police are out speaking with the community about their problems. Sure slow response in an issue, but just like the Canberra Hospital, they are under resourced. Those complaints should be made to the Government, rather than bagging the Police on the ground.

I admit to being slightly creeped out by the idea that our policing is sub-contracted out to a third party not answerable to the public.

If anything, the checks and balances so important to democracy and personal freedom are even more critical with third-party police forces.

Even the Feds acknowledge the role of the fourth estate in public administration with the coming changes to protect press sources.

It’s amazing that a sub-contracted police force doesn’t do everything it can to put the press, and therefore the public, on side with a good responsive media unit.

I thing Waterford was spot-on. BTW, he didn’t make any allegation of corruption, he said that secrecy makes it easy for corruption to breed, which is so obviously true no one can argue against it.

One of the best checks against abuse of power is publicity.

Your ongoing references to people having “diseases” as if that makes them guilty of a crime strikes me as being decidedly creepy and twisted vandam.

A lot of people are not impressed with the police in Canberra and it has nothing to do with the Canberra Times.

the people who answer their phones are rude and downright rude, they have scaled back the type of jobs they will attend to (eg – noise complaints between 7-7Pm they don’t deal with), response times are very slow etc etc. Most people I know have a story about trying to ring the police about something, and getting either dismissed, not getting through, or getting minimal response. They got away with these levels of service for quite a while, but over time it has happened to about 50% of Canberra, and people are over it.

Anyone remember that bloke that rang them from his work to say he was stuck in the building with hoons outside, who were attacking cars – police told him not to worry – insurance would pay for it…

From what I heard, they had technically just gotten off duty (stopping at Maccas on the way back to the station) and were still in uniform with their sidearms, batons and pepper spray. What I meant was if they were off duty, were they allowed to use their equipment. It would be pretty stupid if some regulation prohibited it. Simply because their shift ended ten minutes before.

Even if they did not have pepper spray and so on, a phone call from one of them may have expedited the response of the police who were on duty. 30 minutes is quite appalling.

Oh, and quite right about Waterford. If he can come up with specific cases of corruption in the AFP and back it up with evidence, the publish it. If all he can offer is slanderous comments about the AFP in general, saying their corrupt, then he should keep a lid on it.

Sure Jack Waterford may address some issues that need to be addressed, however his editorials are an absolute nightmare to read. They don’t make sense, have no basis for his claims and is quite harsh without any evidence to back it up. When Jack says things like the Police force is corrupt and has nothing to back that up with, it indicates piss poor writing. It seems he throws things into editorials that have no creditbility, to sell newspapers, or brainwash the community. Problem is, everyone takes what they read in the media as being the truth. Unfortuantly the media always manipulate the truth to make a story sound juicier to sell papers. As a result people believe what they read in the media, form an opinion and wolaah, everyone hates the cops. It is well known that the CT are cop haters, they do a very good job of convincing the public to do the same.

The problem is Terry, no one knows what sort of disgusting creatures were causing the disturbance in the first place, secondly no one knows if they had weapons, syringes, diseases etc etc. Now like any joe smith in public, those two off duty officers do not have anything to protect themselves if it turns to crap. However if they witness the disturbance they make great witnesses at court. And like the Police say, you shouldn’t confront an offender, just let them go, life and safety is far more inportant

Oh, serious question. What can AFP officers do while off duty? If any one knows, please let me know. I don’t want hard on those two officers if they were genuinely not allowed to intervene while off duty.

I speculated no such thing, for all we know she was about to blow the whistle.

As I noted in the earlier story the Queensland police have a long and disgusting history of murdering people and calling it a suicide hanging.

I know nothing, but if there is not a full and far ranging public inquiry I will wonder long and hard, and I will not be the only one.

One word Bruce: Watergate.

Speaking of Maccas. A few nights ago, the duty manager at a Maccas (I won’t say witch one) told two people to leave the place because they were been disruptive. Those two people came back with some mates who were half stone. THe manager told them to leave and an all out brawl started. The police were called (the station is 5 mins away). They took 30 minutes to send a car and two officers to deal with a brawls of 8 people. Do you know who was in the restaurant along with a dozen shocked patrons… two off duty cops. When asked if they were going to do something, one of them responded “no, i’m eating… and I’m off duty”.
Yeah, the AFP is not corrupt, just incompetent. And these incidents are just the sought of things the media needs to highlight.

You have no idea what her reasons were. Neither do I. Why not make up some nonsense like the Commissioner sent some federal agents up there to murder her? That would be a good story.
You have no idea why she made her decision, but you speculating that it was beacuse of her being corrupt is piss weak.

The point is under the current system we wouldn’t know.

We do know that the CPO is dead. Which indicates some pretty enormous problems being hidden by a Commissioner trying to blame the media.

What secrets are they keeping? Is there a big conspiracy where ACT Police are getting free Maccas? What are their mistakes in your expert opinion?

yeah, secrecy is much better.

nothing ever goes wrong when people with power can hide their mistakes.

The police are answerable to the public. They have a part of their organisation dedicated to investigating complaints against them. All police forces have some form of internal investigation unit. Just because the AFP choose not to let the Canberra Times be their judge and jury doesn’t make them unaccountable. And can you blame them? Look at what happened when the press “decided” the OJ Simpson case in the US. Newspapers are a cheap form of entertainment, but don’t them as gospel. Journos may have agendas (like Mr Waterford) or just not grasp the full story and write their misinterpretations.

“I can’t help but wonder why the decision regarding police honours at the funeral is being left to the family”

Yeah I wonder why????? Maybe thats because the family may have wanted a private funeral. The AFP just cant barge on in and tell the family how the funeral will go. Its the same with state and military funerals. The family gets an offer which they choose to accept or decline.

Well…not really. Technically speaking they’re like hired mercenaries, or to put it lightly, contracted out. We pay millions of dollars for an existing police force to change focus to work at a community level. Corbell writes a few guidelines/ wishlists for the AFP to act on and that’s pretty much it. Look into it, the minister doesn’t have that much of a say into policing matters. It makes me wonder if that should change.

Whether its run by the Federal level AFP or by the territory government is irrelevant. ACT Policing still answers to the ACT Government minister responsible for policing. Looking at NSW and Victoria, I don’t think a fully state based police force would be a huge benefit.

By the way, did any one else see Jack Waterford at Magnet Mart buying planks of wood an nylon rope. No. Exactly. He was not responsible for her death in any logical way. Perhaps his comments contributed to fagan’s overall state of mind. But to blame him for her death when he was merely writing what he thought (as he is paid to do) about her professional abilities is ludicrous. Remember hat NSW Police commissioner, Ryan. He copped a load more from the media and as far as I know… he is still alive.

Waterford’s comments were interesting coz he’s usually the first journo who’s prepared to stick his neck out when it comes to police operations. Whether or not it’s free from bias is another matter…and Keelty’s office says he wont be making any more comment about the matter to anyone else. At the end of the day, the problems around ACT policing looks like it’s because its run by the AFP, and not run by a state government (although whether or not the state can do any better is another matter altogether)

Fagan was top cop, a position she was not suitable for. As both top cop and a public figure, the media and public has every right to say what they want (with in reason) about her professional duties.

As for Keelty, I think it was only a matter of time before Fagan was pushed from the job by him. She couldn’t be allowed to continue in a position she obviously was poorly suited for and which was impacted serverely on the effectiveness and morale of ACT Polcing. It’s just sad that she chose to jump before Keelty could ask for her resignation. Quietly resigning would have been better for all concerned. One day of talk and then she would be forgotten largely. Now, we can expect days, even weeks of speculation and discussion.

Waterford. I’d be critical of Fagan and the AFP too if the AFP were been so poor in getting releases that are critical to public safety out to the media outlets.

So what’s Mick suggesting? That his senior staff are so fragile they’re taking there own lives because journos and cartoonists are making unpleasant, baseless accusations. That would seem to be even more of a worry than if allegations of corruption were true.

But he doesn’t seem to have taken the opportunity to actually refute the journo’s claims. I can’t help but wonder why the decision regarding police honours at the funeral is being left to the family. And I have trouble writing a journalist of Waterford’s experience off as a hack, I’m afraid. I’m more inclined to think he’s had a whiff of something if he’s putting it in writing.

Nor do I imagine a sanitized version of the truth would really do that much for the family’s grieving process. If this happened in my family, I’d want the whole truth, warts and all, precisely in order to be able to deal with what is, for the people not going through such torment and suffering, the incomprehensible, tragic decision of a loved one.

What I do think Keelty is saying (indeed, rather obliquely), is for journos to pull their heads in for a week to allow the family a time to grieve in peace. Something that strikes me as a considered and sensitive suggestion under the circumstances, and one any reasonable person ought see the sense in complying with, provided some explanation is to follow.

But answerable only to the minister is a ridiculous suggestion. What I do hope is that CPO Fagan doesn’t become, in death, the convenient scapegoat of others by no longer being in a position to speak in her own defence.

Mick Keelty is an idiot as far as I am concerned. Sure, he may know alot more about this tragedy than I ever will, but does it honestly need to be turned into a blatant blame game. Jack Waterford might have been poisonous when it came to the personal attack on Audrey, but he’s a newsman, and I swear that must be in the job description. I hardly think someone whom had led a career in a pretty emotionally testing field would end her life over something like that had there not been something else going on. I know for a fact that clinical depression can come on pretty fast in times of stress and when it’s at it’s peak, suicidal thoughts are unavoidable. I’m not saying that this was the case, but if it was something similar, then I hardly think you can blame Jack Waterford for something that was clearly a mental health issue. Plus, there could have been a number of other things going on that we didn’t know about and probably will never know about, for good reasons at that, since I think the preservation of that poor woman’s privacy is a well deserved last honor.
It’ll also be nice not to have the private tragedy of the Fagan family turned into a political weapon by either side.

Unfortunately I have not seen those however I am willing to concede that when ANY element of the media gets their hands on information it doesn’t always get presented in a true light – everybody has seen Police doing something and something else gets reported…

In too may cases the CT and others have gone out of their way to print opinion and speculation regardless of the effect it may have on either the public, victims or Police.

We’ve highlighted dishonesty from the media unit on numerous occasions.

JB, you state “dishonesty”…. unless you can give us any evidence then stop venting and start backing up what you claim to be true with facts.

Heavs, unfortunately the media have their own agenda – that fool Waterford is a good example. Somewhere else in RA I put it to the CT that perhaps they could provide stats on the information provided to them versus the stories they print – Jack didn’t get back.

On an interesting note, I called CT and asked them why their blog was not running or why the public was not able to question them in an open forum… nil response.

No problem with police aside from piss poor customer service received when trying to report the odd bit or piece over the year.

I just despise secrecy and dishonesty in important public institutions.

For that matter I’ve got quite a lot of friends who are cops.

I love how any contrary views are taken as proof that I’m some sort of cop-hating low life.

Keelty appears to me to have embarked on a campaign of misdirection and one has to wonder why that might be.

‘Pen Pusher’ Maybe she is a pen pusher, but it took 28 or so years to get there. She’s done the hard work prior to being the top cop. And as for media, I’m sure that when the good work is published by Police, then more stories will be forthcoming. Its no wonder they don’t provide information, they always get slammed for it.

Johnboy what is your problem with cops? Have you had a ticket before? or was it that you just arn’t smart enough to make it in the force? I’d be interested to know!

DJ – you say that police do good work in the community but we never hear about it. I have no reason to doubt that. Maybe you should ask why the media don’t report on it? If you are blacking them out on most other stuff, why should they report other ‘feelgood’ stories? It’s a two way street.

It’s not that common astrojax, Winchester was the highest ranking Australian policeman murdered.

sadly, jb, probably several (not that i know of any off-hand) if the period was just a year or two, that’d be statistically significant.

as for seepi’s question on public approval surveys; if the top cop is actually only answerable to the toppest cop, then perhaps the surveys are above and beyond the call of duty – or is this an alien concept to you?

and i hardly imagine that the chief police officer’s job is one that simply ‘pushes a pen’. really, some people have no idea about anything but feel compelled to pontificate.

s’worst thing about the recent burgeoning of the ‘blog…

Outside of Iraq have any other police forces in the world had two assistant commissioners die in the space of 18 years?

If he really believes that the police are only answerable to the minister, then why do the police do those ‘public approval’ surveys to see what we think of them.

The ACT police are asked to do more with less all the time, and services to the public are suffering. Presumably morale/stress are also poor within the force.

The police have drawn up a new ‘prioritising’ system in the last year or so, which seems to mean they don’t attend anything except violent attacks. They have also employed the world’s rudest woman to answer the general phone line, and her job is obviousley to get rid of people.

I hope whatever enquiry occurs results in somebody realising we need a few more police to actually get things achieved, and reduce stress in the existing force.

Police do very good work. You might not know about it because the media don’t report it. Simple really.

Why six pages on Sunday? A feeling of responsibility and guilt have a big part to play.

As for your comment “for a pen pushing copper” – why not. You all seemed willing to attack her because she was the boss and the focal point you all believe you could slander without any evidence that would stand up in Court and with no regard for her – but when tragedy strikes you want to sweep this under the mat and forget about it?

Waterford and others in the media are not accountable and should be.

If the media started to report the truth about the good work the APF does in both the ACT and Australia wide instead of the dribble Waterford and the like poison the community with you would be very surprised.

And to all those Police haters I hope something like this never happens to you.

And BTW, for those intent on stating that there is corruption within the AFP – start giving specific examples or shut the hell up.

And the reason it only received one page on Saturday was the lack of time to prepare material. This story broke late on Friday evening.

I’m not surprised it received so much attention in yesterdays CT. It’s a big issue, and worthy of the attention.

what amzed me wa that it had front page on saturday ct – then SIX pages in sundays!?!

six pages – for a penpushing copper ?

im sad she has died – but i have to question this editorial decision.