Time for public high schools to throw in the towel? [With poll]

Watson said :

Hey, as you seem to know your stuff, can you tell me who might be to blame for our local primary school only having 1 part-time support teacher for around 400 kids? Something someone said led me to believe that it was the school choosing to use their funding in other ways, but maybe this is a wrong assumption.

sooooooo… Schools receive points based on the number of students that are classified as needing enough assistance (very, very high hurdle, which less and less kids seem to pass over every year… seemingly). For example, being high-functioning Aspergers won’t even put you on the map. These points transfer into funding; which is *supposed* to pay for Teaching Assistants – but the rub; it is up to the school to decide the best way to use that. Points are also only provided for core subjects.

You school has either; not enough highly ranked students, or the funding is being redirected. Probably worth asking…

Maya1 said :

2604 said :

The solution? Institute a voucher system and abolish the PEAs so that kids from anywhere can apply to go to any school. Then, principals would actually have to compete by offering parents what they want. Further, principals should be subject to oversight by superintendents.

No, this would only encourage more cars on the road, increase congestion and green house gases and with childhood obesity on the rise it would not provide children the opportunity to walk/cycle to school. Better to encourage people to send their children to local schools. Imagine wanting to send your children to the local school so they could walk/cycle, but being unable to because it was full of out of area children who are driven across town to attend. The result! Cars crossing the city passing each other as they take their children to school in each others’ suburbs. Monty Pythonist, madness.

About half of the kids at our local school seem to get dropped off by car anyway. But I suppose it could be 100%. I definitely highly value the close proximity of our school. It also means that most of my daughter’s friends live closeby and we often run into them at the shops. All the kids in our street go to that school too. It does definitely create a community feel.

Maya1 said :

2604 said :

The solution? Institute a voucher system and abolish the PEAs so that kids from anywhere can apply to go to any school. Then, principals would actually have to compete by offering parents what they want. Further, principals should be subject to oversight by superintendents.

No, this would only encourage more cars on the road, increase congestion and green house gases and with childhood obesity on the rise it would not provide children the opportunity to walk/cycle to school. Better to encourage people to send their children to local schools. Imagine wanting to send your children to the local school so they could walk/cycle, but being unable to because it was full of out of area children who are driven across town to attend. The result! Cars crossing the city passing each other as they take their children to school in each others’ suburbs. Monty Pythonist, madness.

And what if your local high school is lousy? Sending your kid to an ineffective or unsafe school just so that they have the opportunity to walk or ride there displays muddled priorities IMO.

In any case, the idea would be that your local high school would eventually be every bit as good as ones across town. It would need to be, as it would be optional and would not survive otherwise.

viva_la_albert said :

I really do hope someone from the Department of Education reads our comments. They spend enough time and money on audits and school validations. I don’t understand the point of school surveys either, I’m sure they know what the public education system is like.

I hope so too….unlikely though. In any case they’d think we were wrong. Too much discussion here of getting the basics right (ie academics and discipline), not enough discussion of how public education is incorrectly marketed and not integrated enough with universities and other piddling, peripheral new-age crap.

Feathergirl said :

I know two young ladies who within the last five years finished private school thanks to their grandparent footing the bill. Both girls have had babies at age 21 and still live at home with mum – they are unemployed. I don’t believe a private education is best for kids. Bogans do what bogans do no matter where they are bless ’em.

+1 for that, I’ve met people from both public and private systems who prove both systems can produce deadbeats.

One former Girls Grammar student who went to a public college for Years 11 and 12 is a prime example. Despite having a truckload of money to fall back on (prominent local family) and nothing holding her back from going to Uni, she decided instead to skip Uni, hook up with a bartender and work as a receptionist. She’s going nowhere in life despite having all the opportunities and none of the constraints many students must overcome. She chosen the path many former colleagues of mine from public high school and college have gone, many of whom now regret it.

On the other hand, I know another student who went to Grammar and went to the same college for Years 11 and 12. Disadvantaged to some extent as he immigrated here when he was younger, wasn’t very wealthy. Yet he applied himself so well and with such dedication that he achieved a fantastic UAI and is now at Sydney Uni.

viva_la_albert said :

I really do hope someone from the Department of Education reads our comments. They spend enough time and money on audits and school validations. I don’t understand the point of school surveys either, I’m sure they know what the public education system is like.

I’d be happy if DET could recognise that some kids have troubled lives and as such have discipline problems, but this DOESN’T automatically mean they should get put in with other kids who’s learning is impacted. Spend some money and set up some special programs, whatever, just get them the hell out of classes which would be more productive without them.

2604 said :

The solution? Institute a voucher system and abolish the PEAs so that kids from anywhere can apply to go to any school. Then, principals would actually have to compete by offering parents what they want. Further, principals should be subject to oversight by superintendents.

No, this would only encourage more cars on the road, increase congestion and green house gases and with childhood obesity on the rise it would not provide children the opportunity to walk/cycle to school. Better to encourage people to send their children to local schools. Imagine wanting to send your children to the local school so they could walk/cycle, but being unable to because it was full of out of area children who are driven across town to attend. The result! Cars crossing the city passing each other as they take their children to school in each others’ suburbs. Monty Pythonist, madness.

I really do hope someone from the Department of Education reads our comments. They spend enough time and money on audits and school validations. I don’t understand the point of school surveys either, I’m sure they know what the public education system is like.

Restorative justice:

Victim complains — school verifies complaint – victim faces bully and decides publishment ….
first time – victim hands out punishment — bully retaliates later
second time – victim has another go — bully retailiates harder
eventually – battered and bruised victim says it isn’t a big deal – on paper, the bully has stopped

Hey presto – restorative justice works.

I know two young ladies who within the last five years finished private school thanks to their grandparent footing the bill. Both girls have had babies at age 21 and still live at home with mum – they are unemployed. I don’t believe a private education is best for kids. Bogans do what bogans do no matter where they are bless ’em.

Gerry-Built said :

steveu said :

The government needs to adjust their behaviour management policy in a major way. Simple. At the moment it seems to have been developed by some gorup of namby-pamby child psychologists whose views are considered gospel int he eyes of the government.

Actually, the Behaviour Management System at a school level is, at least in School’s I have worked at, pretty good. It is the system’s (ie DET) failure to provide outside of school-environment support that (IMHO) is lacking – as well as their stealthy methods used to discourage schools from suspending students. Schools need greater support to work with students with special needs (inc G&T) and especially to support kids that have behavioural and social problems that lead to them being disruptive to the learning of others. At the moment, the worst behaviours result in a short suspension for the perps, followed by a return, to their status quo… there is currently no encouragement for students to modify their poor behaviour.

Most schools use a Glasser-based approach of students owning their poor choice of behaviour, with graduated levels should the behaviour continue (Teacher/Student behaviour agreement > Faculty Agreement > School-wide Agreement > suspension). For a majority of students – this system works. Some schools use, to varying degrees, Restorative Practices, though to do RP satisfactorily takes a significant commitment of time and training (therefore $$$).

Hey, as you seem to know your stuff, can you tell me who might be to blame for our local primary school only having 1 part-time support teacher for around 400 kids? Something someone said led me to believe that it was the school choosing to use their funding in other ways, but maybe this is a wrong assumption.

steveu said :

The government needs to adjust their behaviour management policy in a major way. Simple. At the moment it seems to have been developed by some gorup of namby-pamby child psychologists whose views are considered gospel int he eyes of the government.

Actually, the Behaviour Management System at a school level is, at least in School’s I have worked at, pretty good. It is the system’s (ie DET) failure to provide outside of school-environment support that (IMHO) is lacking – as well as their stealthy methods used to discourage schools from suspending students. Schools need greater support to work with students with special needs (inc G&T) and especially to support kids that have behavioural and social problems that lead to them being disruptive to the learning of others. At the moment, the worst behaviours result in a short suspension for the perps, followed by a return, to their status quo… there is currently no encouragement for students to modify their poor behaviour.

Most schools use a Glasser-based approach of students owning their poor choice of behaviour, with graduated levels should the behaviour continue (Teacher/Student behaviour agreement > Faculty Agreement > School-wide Agreement > suspension). For a majority of students – this system works. Some schools use, to varying degrees, Restorative Practices, though to do RP satisfactorily takes a significant commitment of time and training (therefore $$$).

Like all generalisations, they are true until they are false. Deciding on a school is a complicated task, that often involves a number of factors. In my case the local government school opened at the same time as my eldest child was going into kindergarten, so there was no track record for me to judge the school on.
So I had to balance the unknown with my own experience at a Canberra private school. In this case it was issues like ‘What are the chances my child will get knifed at the government school’ v ‘How many classmates of mine were molested by the teachers when I went to school’. It turns out that after 7 years the number of stabbings at my kids school (0) is less than the number of molestation cases involving my own teachers.
But that is just me, and other parents may see the other side of the coin. The risk that their own child may be subject to this behaviour may be outweighed by the fact that most children were to scared to complain, and decide that it is more important that their child learn to do as they’re told, rather than make waves by standing up for themselves.

“Ah the Righteous Left jumping on what was intended to be a comic aside to the endless class war that seems to dominate the whole public/private schools argument.”

Well . . . you know what professional comedians say about comedy: it always has an element of truth to it.

“You were no doubt conducting a Marxist class analysis to develop a social stratification based on your perception of me, the author of a very brief response, rather than taking it for what it was, a humorous aside. But that’s ok, you went through the public system so basic contextualisation of written text won’t be your strong point.”

Not really. I was more making a reflection upon your humerous aside and the completely unhumerous subtext that it was harbouring. My reflection had nothing to do with ‘developing a social stratification’ (perhaps shining a light on an aspect of it though). And, afterv all, you were the one who raised Marx yet failed to adequately contextusalise Manifesto against his larger corpus of work (and, yes, that irks me somewhat as it shows ignorance of the context in which Manifesto needs to be placed). Perhaps you’d have been better served reading Foucault, or even Chomsky. But, hey, since the subtext this time was more along the lines of, “No . . . you’re wrong . . . I’m a superior human being intellectually as a result of my education and here’s proof”, I guess I have to simply admit my shortcomings.

Or, I could get a ruler out as well.

“I find it infinitely likely that the variability of education quality within Australia, as compared with the entire spectrum of possible variability, is incredibly small. It is a possibility that the whole argument is lilliputian”

There’s something in that, beejay. I think there’s a linkage to the points I have tried to make in debates around these issues as well. And that’s simply that we need to — at the very least — ensure that the opportuntites for all students are optimised and available to them irresepctive of where they go to school. As a society we need to be about about doing whatever we can to provide an avenue for all kiddies to reach their fullest potential, with that outcome to be achieved in spite of any camoflaged class structure in the nation as is ordered by SES.

viva_la_albert said :

I do agree that the government should grant more funding to public schooling however, this funding shouldn’t be spent uselessly on items such as new gyms or broken windows. Funding should go to improving teacher quality.

Well said. And if they could also use more of their funding for remedial support and tackling behavioural issues early in the process, I’d be even happier.

I think you just inspired me to join my daughter’s primary school’s school board!

As a current year 12 student in a public school, I’ve learnt that it doesn’t matter whether a person goes to a public or private school, it really depends on the student. A motivated student will do well regardless of the type of schooling. I know people who have gone to private schools and get low ATARs and whatnot.

Although teacher quality and the learning environment may impact the quality of the learning, it really comes down to the student. If the student is willing to learn, teachers will accommodate that learning process and allow that student to succeed.

I do agree that the government should grant more funding to public schooling however, this funding shouldn’t be spent uselessly on items such as new gyms or broken windows. Funding should go to improving teacher quality.

beejay76 said :

I can’t help thinking that with all the publicly-educated claiming that they had a great education, and the privately-education claiming they had a great education, perhaps, just perhaps, there’s no great difference.

I find it infinitely likely that the variability of education quality within Australia, as compared with the entire spectrum of possible variability, is incredibly small. It is a possibility that the whole argument is lilliputian.

I think you’re on to something…

I can’t help thinking that with all the publicly-educated claiming that they had a great education, and the privately-education claiming they had a great education, perhaps, just perhaps, there’s no great difference.

I find it infinitely likely that the variability of education quality within Australia, as compared with the entire spectrum of possible variability, is incredibly small. It is a possibility that the whole argument is lilliputian.

neanderthalsis said :

triffid said :

“Someone once wrote a book on this, it was called the Communist Manifesto and was written by Karl, the lesser known brother of Groucho, Harpo and Chico Marx.

Time to grow a beard, buy a beret and man the barricades!”

Umm . . . is than an assessment arrived at as a vicarious result of a private education? Just asking is all, ‘cos, if it is, maybe you can get a refund on the fees somehow.

Marx comma K fullstop was not the sole author of the Manifesto: Engels comma F had a hand in it as well. It wasn’t so much a manifesto as a pamphlet (pretty common in the day). And, naturally, you’ll be well acquainted with Marx’s more substantive work in the form of Capital (vols 1 through to the unfinished 3). But, you knew all that, right? And yet still managed to correlate a discourse on observations made of a transtion from an agrarian to an industrial age — in which ‘politics’ is mentioned (if I recall) only 4 or so times over 1200 or so pages — with an allegation of ideological underpinnings within public education?

Gee . . . I now wish that I hadn’t been to Mundingburra State School and Everton Park High as a kiddie all those years ago.

Thanks, watson, for your retort . . . + a gazillion. And thanks, too, to whover it was with the Darwin quote. It, in my mind, summed the whole debate up.

Ah the Righteous Left jumping on what was intended to be a comic aside to the endless class war that seems to dominate the whole public/private schools argument.

Oddly enough, I have read Marx and Engels, also many of the more modern works on educational theory by Frier, Fanon, Steiner and Weil among others.

My education was at an independent religious school in a very working class town in QLD. I don’t think I will take your advice on asking for a refund on the fees, as it was possibly the best start someone from my background could hope for in life.

You were no doubt conducting a Marxist class analysis to develop a social stratification based on your perception of me, the author of a very brief response, rather than taking it for what it was, a humorous aside. But that’s ok, you went through the public system so basic contextualisation of written text won’t be your strong point.

A “humorous aside” that could very easily be interpreted as a harsh judgement of the author of a brief post. And seemed aimed at fueling the class debate angle instead of defusing it.

I also went to a catholic school (albeit not in Australia) and my family’s low economic status made me the odd one out there. I had an excellent education, but as I didn’t try the public alternative, I cannot say for sure that I wouldn’t have been just as happy with that.

I chose a public primary school for my child because I liked the school. And I am hoping I will be able to send her to a good public high school, which I won’t be able to if JBs outrageous suggestion were to be taken seriously by the powers that be.

neanderthalsis said :

triffid said :

“Someone once wrote a book on this, it was called the Communist Manifesto and was written by Karl, the lesser known brother of Groucho, Harpo and Chico Marx.

Time to grow a beard, buy a beret and man the barricades!”

Umm . . . is than an assessment arrived at as a vicarious result of a private education? Just asking is all, ‘cos, if it is, maybe you can get a refund on the fees somehow.

Marx comma K fullstop was not the sole author of the Manifesto: Engels comma F had a hand in it as well. It wasn’t so much a manifesto as a pamphlet (pretty common in the day). And, naturally, you’ll be well acquainted with Marx’s more substantive work in the form of Capital (vols 1 through to the unfinished 3). But, you knew all that, right? And yet still managed to correlate a discourse on observations made of a transtion from an agrarian to an industrial age — in which ‘politics’ is mentioned (if I recall) only 4 or so times over 1200 or so pages — with an allegation of ideological underpinnings within public education?

Gee . . . I now wish that I hadn’t been to Mundingburra State School and Everton Park High as a kiddie all those years ago.

Thanks, watson, for your retort . . . + a gazillion. And thanks, too, to whover it was with the Darwin quote. It, in my mind, summed the whole debate up.

Ah the Righteous Left jumping on what was intended to be a comic aside to the endless class war that seems to dominate the whole public/private schools argument.

Oddly enough, I have read Marx and Engels, also many of the more modern works on educational theory by Frier, Fanon, Steiner and Weil among others.

My education was at an independent religious school in a very working class town in QLD. I don’t think I will take your advice on asking for a refund on the fees, as it was possibly the best start someone from my background could hope for in life.

You were no doubt conducting a Marxist class analysis to develop a social stratification based on your perception of me, the author of a very brief response, rather than taking it for what it was, a humorous aside. But that’s ok, you went through the public system so basic contextualisation of written text won’t be your strong point.

Urgh. Where’s the measuring tape when you need it??

triffid said :

“Someone once wrote a book on this, it was called the Communist Manifesto and was written by Karl, the lesser known brother of Groucho, Harpo and Chico Marx.

Time to grow a beard, buy a beret and man the barricades!”

Umm . . . is than an assessment arrived at as a vicarious result of a private education? Just asking is all, ‘cos, if it is, maybe you can get a refund on the fees somehow.

Marx comma K fullstop was not the sole author of the Manifesto: Engels comma F had a hand in it as well. It wasn’t so much a manifesto as a pamphlet (pretty common in the day). And, naturally, you’ll be well acquainted with Marx’s more substantive work in the form of Capital (vols 1 through to the unfinished 3). But, you knew all that, right? And yet still managed to correlate a discourse on observations made of a transtion from an agrarian to an industrial age — in which ‘politics’ is mentioned (if I recall) only 4 or so times over 1200 or so pages — with an allegation of ideological underpinnings within public education?

Gee . . . I now wish that I hadn’t been to Mundingburra State School and Everton Park High as a kiddie all those years ago.

Thanks, watson, for your retort . . . + a gazillion. And thanks, too, to whover it was with the Darwin quote. It, in my mind, summed the whole debate up.

Ah the Righteous Left jumping on what was intended to be a comic aside to the endless class war that seems to dominate the whole public/private schools argument.

Oddly enough, I have read Marx and Engels, also many of the more modern works on educational theory by Frier, Fanon, Steiner and Weil among others.

My education was at an independent religious school in a very working class town in QLD. I don’t think I will take your advice on asking for a refund on the fees, as it was possibly the best start someone from my background could hope for in life.

You were no doubt conducting a Marxist class analysis to develop a social stratification based on your perception of me, the author of a very brief response, rather than taking it for what it was, a humorous aside. But that’s ok, you went through the public system so basic contextualisation of written text won’t be your strong point.

The government needs to adjust their behaviour management policy in a major way. Simple. At the moment it seems to have been developed by some gorup of namby-pamby child psychologists whose views are considered gospel int he eyes of the government.

“Someone once wrote a book on this, it was called the Communist Manifesto and was written by Karl, the lesser known brother of Groucho, Harpo and Chico Marx.

Time to grow a beard, buy a beret and man the barricades!”

Umm . . . is than an assessment arrived at as a vicarious result of a private education? Just asking is all, ‘cos, if it is, maybe you can get a refund on the fees somehow.

Marx comma K fullstop was not the sole author of the Manifesto: Engels comma F had a hand in it as well. It wasn’t so much a manifesto as a pamphlet (pretty common in the day). And, naturally, you’ll be well acquainted with Marx’s more substantive work in the form of Capital (vols 1 through to the unfinished 3). But, you knew all that, right? And yet still managed to correlate a discourse on observations made of a transtion from an agrarian to an industrial age — in which ‘politics’ is mentioned (if I recall) only 4 or so times over 1200 or so pages — with an allegation of ideological underpinnings within public education?

Gee . . . I now wish that I hadn’t been to Mundingburra State School and Everton Park High as a kiddie all those years ago.

Thanks, watson, for your retort . . . + a gazillion. And thanks, too, to whover it was with the Darwin quote. It, in my mind, summed the whole debate up.

mouthface said :

shadow boxer said :

Watson said :

mouthface said :

If anybody thinks that private school kids turn out better they are kidding themselves, and perpetuating a myth that will ultimately see the public system destroyed as more and more parents desert it in favour of the private system.

Hear, hear!

It’s amusing to watch the public school defenders blame everyone but the current system for the fact nobody wants a bar of it.

If you included waiting lists and people who would if they could afford it the percentage is probably up around 80%

I am a public school defender because my child went through the public system and he and most of his friends received a good education. I know a lot of kids that went to private schools as well, and frankly I see no massive gulf in their outcomes to date. In fact I would say that so far, the public school kids I know ‘seem’ to be doing a better job of their lives than the ones that went to private schools. I get the feeling that most whinging about public schools has no basis in reality, and would be better suited coming out of the mouths of shock jocks. Everybody seems to have a horror story that happened to “a friend of theirs” kid in a public school, and most of it sounds like bullshit. Just a case of “bash the government” really. To be honest, I’ve even suspected certain parents of bragging at social functions that mention their kid’s schools to let people know how much they care and how they have the money to get “the best” for their kids. It does happen.

Maybe we can open this up a bit and adapt the categorisation for private schools too.

“We have now reached, or are very close, to the point where all the children in private high schools fall into three categories:

1) Their parents don’t care about their future,
2) Their parents can afford to pay the school fees, so they feel they have to send them,
3) Their parents are willing to sacrifice their future on the altar of ideology.”

I didn’t change 1 and 3 because there’s a whole range of ways in which you can interpret those, especially when you change the topic they refer to. Like, ‘the altar of ideology’ could mean that they strongly believe that the connections these kids will make at ‘the right school’ will result in them being accepted into ‘the boys’ club’ for the rest of their lives. Or it could mean that they believe only kids from Labour-voting parents go to public schools.

Disclaimer: I do not believe this categorisation holds true either. But if we’re talking generalisations, this one is just as valid as JB’s.

shadow boxer said :

Watson said :

mouthface said :

If anybody thinks that private school kids turn out better they are kidding themselves, and perpetuating a myth that will ultimately see the public system destroyed as more and more parents desert it in favour of the private system.

Hear, hear!

It’s amusing to watch the public school defenders blame everyone but the current system for the fact nobody wants a bar of it.

If you included waiting lists and people who would if they could afford it the percentage is probably up around 80%

I am a public school defender because my child went through the public system and he and most of his friends received a good education. I know a lot of kids that went to private schools as well, and frankly I see no massive gulf in their outcomes to date. In fact I would say that so far, the public school kids I know ‘seem’ to be doing a better job of their lives than the ones that went to private schools. I get the feeling that most whinging about public schools has no basis in reality, and would be better suited coming out of the mouths of shock jocks. Everybody seems to have a horror story that happened to “a friend of theirs” kid in a public school, and most of it sounds like bullshit. Just a case of “bash the government” really. To be honest, I’ve even suspected certain parents of bragging at social functions that mention their kid’s schools to let people know how much they care and how they have the money to get “the best” for their kids. It does happen.

neanderthalsis said :

Calamity said :

Sorry, but that’s how the real world does work. It shouldn’t but that’s how it is.

Okay. In that case, don’t you think perhaps we should try not to pass that attitude on to the next generation?

Someone once wrote a book on this, it was called the Communist Manifesto and was written by Karl, the lesser known brother of Groucho, Harpo and Chico Marx.

Time to grow a beard, buy a beret and man the barricades!

Aah, what I’ve been searching for all this time has a name! It’s not ‘fairness’, but ‘communism’. Easy to confuse. Well, excellent! Thanks for the direction…

While we’re referencing, could I offer this one…
If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin. ~Charles Darwin

neanderthalsis said :

Calamity said :

Sorry, but that’s how the real world does work. It shouldn’t but that’s how it is.

Okay. In that case, don’t you think perhaps we should try not to pass that attitude on to the next generation?

Someone once wrote a book on this, it was called the Communist Manifesto and was written by Karl, the lesser known brother of Groucho, Harpo and Chico Marx.

Time to grow a beard, buy a beret and man the barricades!

Wanting to make public education better is a communist plot?

neanderthalsis said :

Calamity said :

Sorry, but that’s how the real world does work. It shouldn’t but that’s how it is.

Okay. In that case, don’t you think perhaps we should try not to pass that attitude on to the next generation?

Someone once wrote a book on this, it was called the Communist Manifesto and was written by Karl, the lesser known brother of Groucho, Harpo and Chico Marx.

Time to grow a beard, buy a beret and man the barricades!

It really is so helpful to label anything that involves helping the financially less advantaged to access services that are currently for high income earners only as communist. It’s a childish attempt to kill the debate.

I would argue that helping ALL kids achieve the best education they can get benefits the community as a whole. Money doesn’t breed brains. The new Einstein or Bill Gates could be a kid from Charnwood whose parents have never held a job for longer than a week.

Your argument on the other hand sounds a lot like that song “The rich man in his castle, The poor man at his gate, God made them, high or lowly, And ordered their estate.”

Calamity said :

Sorry, but that’s how the real world does work. It shouldn’t but that’s how it is.

Okay. In that case, don’t you think perhaps we should try not to pass that attitude on to the next generation?

Someone once wrote a book on this, it was called the Communist Manifesto and was written by Karl, the lesser known brother of Groucho, Harpo and Chico Marx.

Time to grow a beard, buy a beret and man the barricades!

Calamity said :

shadow boxer said :

Watson said :

mouthface said :

If anybody thinks that private school kids turn out better they are kidding themselves, and perpetuating a myth that will ultimately see the public system destroyed as more and more parents desert it in favour of the private system.

Hear, hear!

It’s amusing to watch the public school defenders blame everyone but the current system for the fact nobody wants a bar of it.

If you included waiting lists and people who would if they could afford it the percentage is probably up around 80%

Did you know 92.4% of statistics are completely made up?

lol, fair cop, pick a figure,

The private school I know of has 1500 kids on the waiting list and I believe Radford is sign up at birth.

Classified said :

90% of the problems in public schools could be fixed with a decent approach to discipline and maintaining order.

i read this and looked across to see its author, expecting the good captain raaf – then realised it wasn’t ‘99%… but much truth here – though of course all the bases for education outcomes start at home, so courtesy, discipline, willingness to work, curiosity, encouragement need a parental / community foundation upon which schools can build.

Bit shocked to see this with JB’s name on it. That aside …

Schools are so very different that it is not really possible to lump them together on the basis of who runs the system they’re under. Some of the worst bullying and (lack of) management of the issue I have seen was at a well-respected private school and other equally bad incidents have been seen at (now infamous) public schools. It all comes down to the principal and his/her staff.

That said, if Barr and his department stopped meddling and started looking after staff and students (by which I mean focusing on education rather than covering up of embarrassing misdeeds and promotion of ideologies), things in the public system would get a whole lot better.

If the student who posted earlier is being honest about the lack of hands-on science experiments and an exclusive use of worksheets, then that school is a disgrace and it should be dealt with. The only argument should be about how – formal complaints (like they achieve anything) followed by public naming and shaming when nothing happens? Or just change schools.

shadow boxer said :

Watson said :

mouthface said :

If anybody thinks that private school kids turn out better they are kidding themselves, and perpetuating a myth that will ultimately see the public system destroyed as more and more parents desert it in favour of the private system.

Hear, hear!

It’s amusing to watch the public school defenders blame everyone but the current system for the fact nobody wants a bar of it.

If you included waiting lists and people who would if they could afford it the percentage is probably up around 80%

Did you know 92.4% of statistics are completely made up?

shadow boxer said :

Watson said :

mouthface said :

If anybody thinks that private school kids turn out better they are kidding themselves, and perpetuating a myth that will ultimately see the public system destroyed as more and more parents desert it in favour of the private system.

Hear, hear!

It’s amusing to watch the public school defenders blame everyone but the current system for the fact nobody wants a bar of it.

If you included waiting lists and people who would if they could afford it the percentage is probably up around 80%

Source, please.

Watson said :

mouthface said :

If anybody thinks that private school kids turn out better they are kidding themselves, and perpetuating a myth that will ultimately see the public system destroyed as more and more parents desert it in favour of the private system.

Hear, hear!

It’s amusing to watch the public school defenders blame everyone but the current system for the fact nobody wants a bar of it.

If you included waiting lists and people who would if they could afford it the percentage is probably up around 80%

mouthface said :

JB, April Fool’s Day was over two months ago, this can’t be a serious piece. This is a beat-up of the public school system, and the posts that have supported this view sound like massive whinging supported by urban myth.
How about the comment: “spelling is not corrected from the start, because “it’s not wrong, it’s just their interpretation”. This is utter rubbish. My child went through the public school system and this was never the case.
He now studies at Uni as do most of his public school-educated friends, and most of them are intelligent decent young adults who have been served well by the public school system. I have friends whose children went through reputable private schools and I can tell you those schools have their share of discipline problems, but maybe they are just better at covering them up.
If anybody thinks that private school kids turn out better they are kidding themselves, and perpetuating a myth that will ultimately see the public system destroyed as more and more parents desert it in favour of the private system.

I think we need to be careful with concepts like ‘turn out better’. For many kids, public school is exactly what they need. Hell, it was exactly what I needed. There are plenty of public schools that do a very good job of combining the various elements that make up education.

The arguments being put forth here are, I think, more to do with examples of bad behaviour or bad outcomes where parents of kids in private schools could go to the school and reasonably expect something to be done about it, whereas in the public system the outcome isn’t always as good. We’ve all heard of examples of kids getting away with outrageous behaviour in the public system that simply wouldn’t wash in the private system.

FWIW, I think that some rough and tumble, provided it’s kept within sensible limits, is actually pretty good for a lot of kids. Some private schools don’t have enough of it. As a parent, I have to think about what I’m trying to achieve in raising my children. Are school marks the main aim? What about raising happy, healthy kids who become stable adults who make good decisions? Balance is the key here. Of course, training their mind is a pretty damn important part of the picture.

My plan has always been to try to find good public schools for my kids. If the public schools in our area have problems that I think can’t be overcome, I’ll look to the private system. Currently my oldest is in our local primary school, and I couldn’t be happier with the place. When it comes to high school time, we’ll reconsider our options and aim for what suits best.

mouthface said :

If anybody thinks that private school kids turn out better they are kidding themselves, and perpetuating a myth that will ultimately see the public system destroyed as more and more parents desert it in favour of the private system.

Hear, hear!

mouthface said :

How about the comment: “spelling is not corrected from the start, because “it’s not wrong, it’s just their interpretation”. This is utter rubbish.

Uh… not rubbish. My niece. Current school year.

Calamity said :

We have a student on here saying they have done nothing but sheet work for a very long time and that the adults ‘in charge’ are ignoring out of control behaviour. Why are you arguing with them??! I think they probably know a bit more about the current education system than you do, given that they are part of it.

Oh, and there may not necessarily be anything unsound about “nothing but sheet work”; although I’d certainly “mix it up” a bit with other teaching methods. It is, afterall, the learning that takes place that matters most. I’ve found that students rarely obtain exercise books (I usually end up buying them for mine), and worksheets mean no students has the “I didn’t bring my book” excuse… If it was a Science class, more than likely the students have lost the privilege of doing pracs (unsafe acts, behaviour etc), or the school has removed pracs to lower the costs of delivering those subjects… I myself use worksheets to teach theoretical components almost exclusively, though they are completely of my own design and are used to focus students on the topic – and are well broken up with practical activity, demonstrations and instruction sessions (I teach elective subjects)…

puggy said :

Calamity said :

Do you think that they would be sharing their concerns here on this public forum without having ever already compained to the teacher and/or their parents?!

And, just like you have done, they may well have effectively ignored this student’s complaints with a ‘Well, do it yourself then!’ or ‘Go read some books, then!’ another such fob off. OR perhaps they ignored the comment entirely on the grounds that this kid didn’t express themselves well enough.

To say that the lack of meaningful work during class time can be fixed by the student’s giving themselves work is ridiculous. I don’t think it’s too much to expect that the TEACHERS actually teach the class. You cannot expect high school kids to come up with their own work and push themselves. That level of autonomy is introduced in college.

We have a student on here saying they have done nothing but sheet work for a very long time and that the adults ‘in charge’ are ignoring out of control behaviour. Why are you arguing with them??! I think they probably know a bit more about the current education system than you do, given that they are part of it.

Steady on there. I don’t feel I have ignored the students concerns and I don’t think I have intimated anywhere that I don’t expect teachers to teach the class. I was merely trying to encourage some action to highlight any problems and some initiative and self-reliance. Getting on here and sharing experiences is step one (good stuff) and yes, it is much more likely that they have shared their views here anonymously first rather than speaking with teachers etc. I reject that I am arguing against the student’s points, I’m just pointing out that in their current situation, they can do something about what they are learning. It is not tacit approval of the current system. I will concede that the initial jibe of the post’s punctuation and grammar was a little harsh, but only if they’re not in Year 10.

And I should expect high school kids to not push themselves? Are you serious? In Year 7 and 8 maybe, but what is wrong with encouraging this? At least try!

The only exprience I have with the current system is quite removed, being through my niece and nephews in primary school. What is your connection though? You seem to have strong views about this.

My connection would be that I also know people who go to school, like you.

Secondly, my sister is a high school teacher and a very dedicated one who struggles daily to provide decent care/education. I also have several friends who have not long begun their teaching careers and it is a very difficult career to chose. As I say, from what I hear the teachers have little to no real power in the classroom, which makes discipline pretty difficult.

And I’m sorry if I got heated, I just resent that a kid raised a very mature issue in a very sensible way and the response it got was frustrating to say the least.

JB, April Fool’s Day was over two months ago, this can’t be a serious piece. This is a beat-up of the public school system, and the posts that have supported this view sound like massive whinging supported by urban myth.
How about the comment: “spelling is not corrected from the start, because “it’s not wrong, it’s just their interpretation”. This is utter rubbish. My child went through the public school system and this was never the case.
He now studies at Uni as do most of his public school-educated friends, and most of them are intelligent decent young adults who have been served well by the public school system. I have friends whose children went through reputable private schools and I can tell you those schools have their share of discipline problems, but maybe they are just better at covering them up.
If anybody thinks that private school kids turn out better they are kidding themselves, and perpetuating a myth that will ultimately see the public system destroyed as more and more parents desert it in favour of the private system.

Calamity said :

We have a student on here saying they have done nothing but sheet work for a very long time and that the adults ‘in charge’ are ignoring out of control behaviour. Why are you arguing with them??! I think they probably know a bit more about the current education system than you do, given that they are part of it.

Well; as an adult that is part of that same education system… here’s some recent sample experiences:

I recently caught students smoking at school during lunch time. I reported it as required. The students denied smoking – and no consequence was applied as a result. When there is no follow-up to a kids behaviour – what motivation is there to report such behaviour, especially as the response you get from the students indicates they know it will go nowhere (from their previous experience)?

Most students who display a poor attitude and poor behaviour bring it from home; why the hell should teachers be accountable for the way these students’ choose to behave? Particularly when some of these kid’s parents say “my kid would never do that”, “you provoked them” or simply refuse to answer the phone (or don’t provide accurate contact details to the school). The teacher’s role is to apply a consequence, and when it continues, to follow channels provided by the School. Some schools offer staff very little support. The last three times I was told to “f-off”; two parents provided inaccurate contact details, and without parental follow-up – the behaviour continued. The third student was returned to my class immediately with the comment from the Student Services staff member that “he has mental health issues” – so apparently I was to ignore his little outbursts to the detriment of the entire class. It is impossible for a teacher to manage the behaviour of a child or children without support from the school and the parents of that child. Quite frankly, the DET system encourages non-reporting and minimal follow-up. The School I work at, rarely suspends kids, as suspension is at the discretion of the Principal, and the Principal is keen to keep the suspension rate down – apparently, whatever the cost. He has received excellent media coverage on his ability to lower the suspension rate… Mr Barr has used it for some mileage too…

Calamity said :

Do you think that they would be sharing their concerns here on this public forum without having ever already compained to the teacher and/or their parents?!

And, just like you have done, they may well have effectively ignored this student’s complaints with a ‘Well, do it yourself then!’ or ‘Go read some books, then!’ another such fob off. OR perhaps they ignored the comment entirely on the grounds that this kid didn’t express themselves well enough.

To say that the lack of meaningful work during class time can be fixed by the student’s giving themselves work is ridiculous. I don’t think it’s too much to expect that the TEACHERS actually teach the class. You cannot expect high school kids to come up with their own work and push themselves. That level of autonomy is introduced in college.

We have a student on here saying they have done nothing but sheet work for a very long time and that the adults ‘in charge’ are ignoring out of control behaviour. Why are you arguing with them??! I think they probably know a bit more about the current education system than you do, given that they are part of it.

Steady on there. I don’t feel I have ignored the students concerns and I don’t think I have intimated anywhere that I don’t expect teachers to teach the class. I was merely trying to encourage some action to highlight any problems and some initiative and self-reliance. Getting on here and sharing experiences is step one (good stuff) and yes, it is much more likely that they have shared their views here anonymously first rather than speaking with teachers etc. I reject that I am arguing against the student’s points, I’m just pointing out that in their current situation, they can do something about what they are learning. It is not tacit approval of the current system. I will concede that the initial jibe of the post’s punctuation and grammar was a little harsh, but only if they’re not in Year 10.

And I should expect high school kids to not push themselves? Are you serious? In Year 7 and 8 maybe, but what is wrong with encouraging this? At least try!

The only exprience I have with the current system is quite removed, being through my niece and nephews in primary school. What is your connection though? You seem to have strong views about this.

One exercise worth doing for anyone interested is to attend the ‘open / information evenings’ held around May every year by all the schools. We’ve done the rounds this year and the difference in both the staff and pupils was staggering between different schools. It was an illuminating experience to compare the two public high schools in South Tuggeranong. One had staff ‘with attitude’ who resembled gang members accompanied by equally disinterested looking pupils and the other was what I’d hoped for with an emphasis on learning and discipline as far as they allowed to impose any. The root problem with public education is with trendy ideology that patently doesn’t work in practice being implemented by equally ideological education ministers who don’t live in the real world.

puggy said :

Regardless, no one I know enjoyed high school, not even “back in my day” in the early 90s. My brother had it even worse some eight years before that too.

This brings up an interesting point – are we supposed to actually ‘enjoy’ school? I also went to high school late 80’s / early 90’s, and found that although some bits were good, plenty of it was crap. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having a bit of a blend to harden teens up for real life.

That said, serious assaults should be a police matter. If my kid was victim to such an assault I would be advising the school (out of courtesy) that I was referring the matter to the police, and then make the call and let the police do what they could.

To get back to the original point of the thread, if there were kids who were known to be causing trouble, most private schools would simply remove them. Until the public school system works out a way to isolate the idiots from the rest of the school population, the perception of parents will be that ‘public schools don’t discipline’ and many of them will move to the private system.

puggy said :

Calamity said :

For God’s sake – I thought their writing and ability to express themselves on a public forum without using text talk was pretty bloody GOOD for a high school kid, actually. Much better than most of that age group, I think you’ll find! Some people are never happy…

dannybear said :

I know that my sentances are poorly constructed but thats mainly because I was never properly taught how to write (I remember being told in primary school not to worry about punctuation because we wouldn’t understand it anyway then once we got to highschool they assumed everyone knew it)

and about experiments we shouldn’t have to demand or even construct the classes ourselves when people are being paid to do it

I did say “Sorry to be harsh” and I didn’t make it the point of my post. I don’t want to discourage any posting. Mind you, it is symptomatic of what I see in my niece’s education. That is, spelling is not corrected from the start, because “it’s not wrong, it’s just their interpretation”.

As far as not being taught punctuation, that’s fair enough, but start observing the use of punctuation in the books that I hope you are reading. That’s how you learn. Don’t expect to be spoon fed anything. The crux of a good education is leaning how to learn. At that age, it’s not what you learn that matters too much.

And if you won’t ever do anything because “other people are paid to do it”, then you’ll never be getting what you want in life, let alone what you need. Take the bloody initiative. Does the teacher know what you students want to do, does the principal, do your parents? The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Do you think that they would be sharing their concerns here on this public forum without having ever already compained to the teacher and/or their parents?!

And, just like you have done, they may well have effectively ignored this student’s complaints with a ‘Well, do it yourself then!’ or ‘Go read some books, then!’ another such fob off. OR perhaps they ignored the comment entirely on the grounds that this kid didn’t express themselves well enough.

To say that the lack of meaningful work during class time can be fixed by the student’s giving themselves work is ridiculous. I don’t think it’s too much to expect that the TEACHERS actually teach the class. You cannot expect high school kids to come up with their own work and push themselves. That level of autonomy is introduced in college.

We have a student on here saying they have done nothing but sheet work for a very long time and that the adults ‘in charge’ are ignoring out of control behaviour. Why are you arguing with them??! I think they probably know a bit more about the current education system than you do, given that they are part of it.

Calamity said :

For God’s sake – I thought their writing and ability to express themselves on a public forum without using text talk was pretty bloody GOOD for a high school kid, actually. Much better than most of that age group, I think you’ll find! Some people are never happy…

dannybear said :

I know that my sentances are poorly constructed but thats mainly because I was never properly taught how to write (I remember being told in primary school not to worry about punctuation because we wouldn’t understand it anyway then once we got to highschool they assumed everyone knew it)

and about experiments we shouldn’t have to demand or even construct the classes ourselves when people are being paid to do it

I did say “Sorry to be harsh” and I didn’t make it the point of my post. I don’t want to discourage any posting. Mind you, it is symptomatic of what I see in my niece’s education. That is, spelling is not corrected from the start, because “it’s not wrong, it’s just their interpretation”.

As far as not being taught punctuation, that’s fair enough, but start observing the use of punctuation in the books that I hope you are reading. That’s how you learn. Don’t expect to be spoon fed anything. The crux of a good education is leaning how to learn. At that age, it’s not what you learn that matters too much.

And if you won’t ever do anything because “other people are paid to do it”, then you’ll never be getting what you want in life, let alone what you need. Take the bloody initiative. Does the teacher know what you students want to do, does the principal, do your parents? The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

puggy said :

dannybear said :

public highschool student here, i think alot of the problems come from lack of discipline and lack of motivation from the teachers
I know alot of students who were well behaved got good grades and had no other problems in primary school who within the first few weeks of highschool were getting into fights taking drugs smoking and stealing.
90% of the time the school knew that drugs were being taken and cigarettes smoked on school property but never did anything.
the school has also tried to cover up a few major fights (actualy they were more like bashings) that required stays in hospital for the students involved.
I know of students being severely bullied and teachers and principals doing nothing about it. the only reasons I can think of is they are either too lazy dont care or they are trying to stop the reputation of the school being damaged

and on the academic side I dont think my class has done any work for the last year that hasnt been printed out work sheets (often the teachers dont even know the answers to the work sheets and have to google them to find the answers)
my class hasnt done any experiments in science for 2 years and nobody seems to care (I know its not that important but it just shows that all we are doing is printed out work sheets)
I know most people think this post is just a typical complaining teenage who hates school but all highlighted in this post is the truth

Sorry to be harsh but, aside from an attempt at using paragraphs, this writing really isn’t an example of a good education.

But to your point, and I do think you have one, things can only change if people take it upon themselves to force change. Schools aren’t some closed ecosystem. Most of the real learning will occur on your own time, the teachers will only point the way. School yard fights that require hospitilisation aren’t just bullying, that’s assault. The police should be involved. Want to do experiments? Demand them. Heck, design one for the whole class. You guys were born with the internet for pete’s sake.

Regardless, no one I know enjoyed high school, not even “back in my day” in the early 90s. My brother had it even worse some eight years before that too.

For God’s sake – I thought their writing and ability to express themselves on a public forum without using text talk was pretty bloody GOOD for a high school kid, actually. Much better than most of that age group, I think you’ll find! Some people are never happy…

puggy said :

dannybear said :

public highschool student here, i think alot of the problems come from lack of discipline and lack of motivation from the teachers
I know alot of students who were well behaved got good grades and had no other problems in primary school who within the first few weeks of highschool were getting into fights taking drugs smoking and stealing.
90% of the time the school knew that drugs were being taken and cigarettes smoked on school property but never did anything.
the school has also tried to cover up a few major fights (actualy they were more like bashings) that required stays in hospital for the students involved.
I know of students being severely bullied and teachers and principals doing nothing about it. the only reasons I can think of is they are either too lazy dont care or they are trying to stop the reputation of the school being damaged

and on the academic side I dont think my class has done any work for the last year that hasnt been printed out work sheets (often the teachers dont even know the answers to the work sheets and have to google them to find the answers)
my class hasnt done any experiments in science for 2 years and nobody seems to care (I know its not that important but it just shows that all we are doing is printed out work sheets)
I know most people think this post is just a typical complaining teenage who hates school but all highlighted in this post is the truth

Sorry to be harsh but, aside from an attempt at using paragraphs, this writing really isn’t an example of a good education.

But to your point, and I do think you have one, things can only change if people take it upon themselves to force change. Schools aren’t some closed ecosystem. Most of the real learning will occur on your own time, the teachers will only point the way. School yard fights that require hospitilisation aren’t just bullying, that’s assault. The police should be involved. Want to do experiments? Demand them. Heck, design one for the whole class. You guys were born with the internet for pete’s sake.

Regardless, no one I know enjoyed high school, not even “back in my day” in the early 90s. My brother had it even worse some eight years before that too.

I know that my sentances are poorly constructed but thats mainly because I was never properly taught how to write (I remember being told in primary school not to worry about punctuation because we wouldn’t understand it anyway then once we got to highschool they assumed everyone knew it)

and about experiments we shouldn’t have to demand or even construct the classes ourselves when people are being paid to do it

dannybear said :

public highschool student here, i think alot of the problems come from lack of discipline and lack of motivation from the teachers
I know alot of students who were well behaved got good grades and had no other problems in primary school who within the first few weeks of highschool were getting into fights taking drugs smoking and stealing.
90% of the time the school knew that drugs were being taken and cigarettes smoked on school property but never did anything.
the school has also tried to cover up a few major fights (actualy they were more like bashings) that required stays in hospital for the students involved.
I know of students being severely bullied and teachers and principals doing nothing about it. the only reasons I can think of is they are either too lazy dont care or they are trying to stop the reputation of the school being damaged

and on the academic side I dont think my class has done any work for the last year that hasnt been printed out work sheets (often the teachers dont even know the answers to the work sheets and have to google them to find the answers)
my class hasnt done any experiments in science for 2 years and nobody seems to care (I know its not that important but it just shows that all we are doing is printed out work sheets)
I know most people think this post is just a typical complaining teenage who hates school but all highlighted in this post is the truth

Sorry to be harsh but, aside from an attempt at using paragraphs, this writing really isn’t an example of a good education.

But to your point, and I do think you have one, things can only change if people take it upon themselves to force change. Schools aren’t some closed ecosystem. Most of the real learning will occur on your own time, the teachers will only point the way. School yard fights that require hospitilisation aren’t just bullying, that’s assault. The police should be involved. Want to do experiments? Demand them. Heck, design one for the whole class. You guys were born with the internet for pete’s sake.

Regardless, no one I know enjoyed high school, not even “back in my day” in the early 90s. My brother had it even worse some eight years before that too.

Has Johnboy ever self awarded flame of the week? 🙂

JB, I’m surprised at the ignorance of this. We pulled our children out of a private school and put them into a public school because the private school wasn’t able to provide adequate IT facilities, and the class sizes were smaller.

I’m all for choice, and actually think the public school system should be privatised to eliminate the reverse elitism rampant in the public system (California has started doing this with some success), but I fundamentally disagree with your underlying premise that lower SES children universally need a different kind of education from higher SES children. Current pedagogical theory says that there are three basic learning styles, and that these bear little relationship to socio-economic status. In my opinion the necessary change to education is to categorise and stream students according to their basic learning styles, not socio-economic status as you’re suggesting.

Watson said :

I didn’t read the title properly (no, I didn’t go to a public school myself). My girl’s only in public, so I can only comment on the quality of public high schools from what my friends with older kids say. The ones with kids in public (intelligent people and by no means poor or brainwashed/-ing) have been satisfied and claim their kids were better prepared for tertiary because they weren’t spoonfed.

If I accept the categorisation, I’d fall into category 2. But your conclusion that “So we’re looking at an education system wherein all the students are profoundly disadvantaged.” I find offensive. Why would kids whose parents can’t or won’t pay for private automatically be disadvantaged? Is it because a higher income produces a better type of child?

I really cannot write, bloody catholic education! I meant “My girl is only in primary”…

I didn’t read the title properly (no, I didn’t go to a public school myself). My girl’s only in public, so I can only comment on the quality of public high schools from what my friends with older kids say. The ones with kids in public (intelligent people and by no means poor or brainwashed/-ing) have been satisfied and claim their kids were better prepared for tertiary because they weren’t spoonfed.

If I accept the categorisation, I’d fall into category 2. But your conclusion that “So we’re looking at an education system wherein all the students are profoundly disadvantaged.” I find offensive. Why would kids whose parents can’t or won’t pay for private automatically be disadvantaged? Is it because a higher income produces a better type of child?

public highschool student here, i think alot of the problems come from lack of discipline and lack of motivation from the teachers
I know alot of students who were well behaved got good grades and had no other problems in primary school who within the first few weeks of highschool were getting into fights taking drugs smoking and stealing.
90% of the time the school knew that drugs were being taken and cigarettes smoked on school property but never did anything.
the school has also tried to cover up a few major fights (actualy they were more like bashings) that required stays in hospital for the students involved.
I know of students being severely bullied and teachers and principals doing nothing about it. the only reasons I can think of is they are either too lazy dont care or they are trying to stop the reputation of the school being damaged

and on the academic side I dont think my class has done any work for the last year that hasnt been printed out work sheets (often the teachers dont even know the answers to the work sheets and have to google them to find the answers)
my class hasnt done any experiments in science for 2 years and nobody seems to care (I know its not that important but it just shows that all we are doing is printed out work sheets)
I know most people think this post is just a typical complaining teenage who hates school but all highlighted in this post is the truth

They also don’t stand up for people on the bus apparently.

gemini7507 said :

I’m wondering if it might be useful to assess whether the absence of a uniform policy in Canberra high schools and colleges is a factor in many families’ decisions to send children to private schools?

It is my understanding that there is now a uniform policy in all ACT Public Schools (though it may be at the School’s board’s discretion). Having fought with “colour code” for many years, the School I am at enforced Uniform from the start of last year – and it has made a HUGE (and immediate) positive difference in the general attitude and behaviour of most students; especially those in the middle of the behaviour spectrum who could go either way. Uniform is cheaper than trendy clothing – and can be subsidised by the Principal’s discretionary funding (although those that need it, are amongst the least likely to pursue it).

somewhere_between_bundah_and_goulburn said :

Radford College and Canberra Girls’ Grammar School don’t allow them to study the tertiary package and are encouraged to start apprenticeships.

Kids who don’t get As in advanced maths at those schools actually get taken out the back and shot.

They also expel kids without hyphenated surnames who don’t play violin and do horse riding.

Anyone else got more AEU/SOS/lefty urban legends about private education they want to share?

Wily_Bear said :

It astounds me that people still tout this furphy whenever this topic is raised.At least one privae school in ACT (the most expensive) is not ranked against the rest of ACT, choosing instead to participate in the NSW system. However, if it helps you feel justified..

Canberra Grammar School only uses the HSC system because, since the HSC is compulsory, they are able to EXPEL their students if they don’t score high enough. Radford College and Canberra Girls’ Grammar School don’t allow them to study the tertiary package and are encouraged to start apprenticeships.

Narrabundah gets a large amount of students from the private system, which might be one of the reasons that their ATAR marks are so high, and since it’s a public school, everyone is allowed to study the tertiary package, which means that almost 90% of students end up studying it.

Most parents do not, however, send their kids to Radford/CGS/CGGS. They send them to St Francis or Burgmann, or Marist/Eddies/Clares/Merici if they want single sex.

Jane Proxy said :

I still think the argument is based on a false premise.

The numbers indicate that 50.3% of high school students in the ACT attend 53% of the high schools in the ACT. Descriptive statistics are not a measure of quality.

(Incidentally, if 100% of the students attended public schools, each school would have over 1100 students. That might have an impact on quality.)

Further, if parents can base their decision to send a child to public school on uninformed, subjective preference or ideology, then they can decide on private school similarly. Preference is also not a measure of quality.

You also appear to be making a moral judgement regarding parents whose children are in public schools, and I don’t think that’s appropriate.

You’re treading on dangerous ground with the phrase, ‘… more precisely aligned to their needs’; it’s at best patronising and at worst elitist. What, exactly, are the educational needs of the economically disadvantaged, and how do they differ from those of higher income families?

What does re-focussing public education to the disadvantaged entail?

+1

I found that categorisation also rather offensive. And I also don’t believe those just under 50% of parents in Canberra would all fit in those.

I am happy with my child’s public school too. And I support their social inclusion policy, something sadly lacking from the private sector. But I do wish they would spend more of their budget on support for those kids with ‘special’ needs (and a larger budget is always welcome of course, but not always possible).

I am not a proponent of privatising all education for “kids without special needs” (whatever that may mean!). I am however a proponent of the nationalisation of private schools!

Anyone who thinks that Narrabundah, Alfred Deakin, Telopea or Lyneham are typical government schools needs to get his head read.

Likewise, anyone who thinks that there aren’t “rich” public schools and “poor” public schools should get real. Lyneham High and Caroline Chisholm are like chalk and cheese. The PEA system ensures that it is measurably easier for kids from the wealthy surrounding suburbs to get in to schools like Lyneham and Telopea, and harder for poorer out-of-area kids to get in.

PEAs also guarantee incompetent principals funding, as they mean that kids basically have no choice but to attend their local govvy high school, no matter how unsafe it is or how low the teaching standards fall. Parents shouldn’t need to spend $5000 per year to send their child to a gang and knife-free high school.

The solution? Institute a voucher system and abolish the PEAs so that kids from anywhere can apply to go to any school. Then, principals would actually have to compete by offering parents what they want. Further, principals should be subject to oversight by superintendents.

(Ditching the politically-correct horseshit and trendy theories that pervade govvy schools, in favour of old-fashioned discipline and expecting kids to actually do a little work would also help)

I’m wondering if it might be useful to assess whether the absence of a uniform policy in Canberra high schools and colleges is a factor in many families’ decisions to send children to private schools? Perhaps a comparison could be done against other jurisdictions who have a stronger uniform policy, as to whether it is relevant in school enrolments? Appearances count- sloppy half uniforms (ie a faded school T shirt and whatever else goes) make public school kids look poor, even when they aren’t. People tend to think that public schools provide a lesser quality education, values, boundaries and discipline because the kids look sloppy. My family was quite poor during the recession. We could not have afforded enough private clothes for my four siblings and I to wear five days a week- uniforms are the great equaliser. I wore a full school uniform including blazer (all second hand) to my catholic high school and looked the same as everyone else- people actually thought we were well off. I fitted in when representing the school, the debating team etc. Friends talk about how hard it was wearing the same clothes every day to Canberra schools and being judged as being poor and therefore not cool. Also it was tough at inter-school events against the private schools in their nice uniforms. For the record, we are sending our kids to public primary but will probably send them to private high schools- this will be a factor in our decision.

whitelaughter said :

What function, exactly, to teachers serve?

Glorified child minding?

I still think the argument is based on a false premise.

The numbers indicate that 50.3% of high school students in the ACT attend 53% of the high schools in the ACT. Descriptive statistics are not a measure of quality.

(Incidentally, if 100% of the students attended public schools, each school would have over 1100 students. That might have an impact on quality.)

Further, if parents can base their decision to send a child to public school on uninformed, subjective preference or ideology, then they can decide on private school similarly. Preference is also not a measure of quality.

You also appear to be making a moral judgement regarding parents whose children are in public schools, and I don’t think that’s appropriate.

You’re treading on dangerous ground with the phrase, ‘… more precisely aligned to their needs’; it’s at best patronising and at worst elitist. What, exactly, are the educational needs of the economically disadvantaged, and how do they differ from those of higher income families?

What does re-focussing public education to the disadvantaged entail?

Johnboy – you have over-simplified the situation here. Most of the kids in our Public Schools don’t fall into any of the three categories you provided. It’s just that those categories (particularly #1) are the kids we teachers (in Public Schools) spend most of our useful class time trying to contain. We are powerless in the classroom; rarely (if at all) receiving parental support and there simply aren’t support mechanisms to help change the situation for them.

And whilst (I hope) it isn’t universal; there are Principals that are reluctant to damage their stats by suspending students – so they go without serious consequences. This, in the long term, will bite them in the arse – but by then they will have been promoted on…

Cheap said :

Narrabundah college ranked second out of all the colleges last year in terms of ATAR scores. I laugh at all those parents spending $100,000+ for a “better education”.

It astounds me that people still tout this furphy whenever this topic is raised.At least one privae school in ACT (the most expensive) is not ranked against the rest of ACT, choosing instead to participate in the NSW system. However, if it helps you feel justified..
If an ATAR score is what a parent wants, then send your kid to the cheapest school possible, and fork out for tutors. If you want a broad range of educational opportunities, well find the school that suits what you are seeking, be it public or private.

Calamity said :

alaninoz said :

Calamity said :

And lastly, separating our high schools into what is effectively one for rich kids and one for poor kids is not right – it’s not how the real world is.

Sorry, but that’s how the real world does work. It shouldn’t but that’s how it is.

Okay. In that case, don’t you think perhaps we should try not to pass that attitude on to the next generation?

+1

alaninoz said :

Calamity said :

And lastly, separating our high schools into what is effectively one for rich kids and one for poor kids is not right – it’s not how the real world is.

Sorry, but that’s how the real world does work. It shouldn’t but that’s how it is.

Okay. In that case, don’t you think perhaps we should try not to pass that attitude on to the next generation?

Calamity said :

And lastly, separating our high schools into what is effectively one for rich kids and one for poor kids is not right – it’s not how the real world is.

Sorry, but that’s how the real world does work. It shouldn’t but that’s how it is.

Education vouchers – give people a choice.

harvyk1 said :

Also I almost feel that 100% of the education budget should go to public schools… If a parent wishes to sent their child to a private school, then it’s their choice, they should have to pay the bill 100%. If they complain that “it’s their tax dollars too” well the answer is simple, send you child to a public school, they do have that option…

+ eleventyseventy (in spite of understanding the historical and political reasons why it would never happen).

And, JB, I know my education was largely back in the third-world ways north of the Rio Tweed in the days of steam radio, but I was failed by that system (and I wasn’t alone) by the inability to be challenged by it. I would hope that my boy — if in the future he shows any sort of potential or capability for ‘advanced’ learning — is directed to the teriary sector as soon as he is able to handle it. I also have a 22 year old nephew who, I know, wishes also that he had just such an opportunity.

And lastly, separating our high schools into what is effectively one for rich kids and one for poor kids is not right – it’s not how the real world is.

@classified – it’d be a start, but there’s more.
Where’s the incentive to learn? If you buckle down and study, you end up even more bored for the rest of the year as teachers pander to the lazy/stupid. Forcing stuidents to repeat classes if they can’t be bothered learning the material would give the lazy a swift kick up the pants.
What function, exactly, to teachers serve? Teenagers don’t learn spelling or grammar – but can message on their phones at touchtyping speeds. They don’t learn foreign languages, but pick them up fluently in a few months overseas. Students master computers when their parents can’t. Teenage girls muck up in class – and after school get paid to babysit..doing a good job! It’s time to get rid of teachers, and have classes run by the students a couple of years ahead. You don’t really understand something until you’ve taught it, so teaching a subject to another after learning it should be required.
@beejay76 – your “4)” is just a spin on “3)”.

I’ve noticed that Canberra schools tend to be big on streaming anyway, so bright kids are challenged and less motivated ones can receive remedial support or whatever. It would be interesting to set up a selective school but only if the location didn’t disadvantage anyone too much.

The last thing we want in society is public schools being considered only for the disadvantaged…

Classified said :

90% of the problems in public schools could be fixed with a decent approach to discipline and maintaining order.

Agreed… Give teachers the ability to sort out problems, fire teachers who puts their head in the sand when it comes to discipline \ bullying problems…

Also I almost feel that 100% of the education budget should go to public schools… If a parent wishes to sent their child to a private school, then it’s their choice, they should have to pay the bill 100%. If they complain that “it’s their tax dollars too” well the answer is simple, send you child to a public school, they do have that option…

I also think it might be worth contemplating that the fact there seem to be so many unruly, naughty kids in public schools is not necessarily the fault of the public schools.

You’ve highlighted that low income earners and the under-privileged will obviously be sending their kids to public rather than private, so plainly there are going to be a lot of kids in public education from some pretty rough circumstances. The school can focus on discipline as much as they like but they can’t fix a kid’s home life.

I don’t think the private schools are doing a better job at controlling their pupils – I think they have a completely different demographic.

Yeah, I don’t agree with this at all. Your categorising is a little on the offensive side, and you have over-simplified this in a massive way.

Narrabundah college ranked second out of all the colleges last year in terms of ATAR scores. I laugh at all those parents spending $100,000+ for a “better education”.

90% of the problems in public schools could be fixed with a decent approach to discipline and maintaining order.

Or 4) Their parents believe a good education can be achieved at a public school, and without the religious baggage.
There’s nothing on earth that will convince me to have my child brainwashed by religious people. My kids’ school is excellent. The principal is awesome. He’s genuinely interested allowing the kids room to move and therefore achieve the most from their education. He’s tough on people (teachers and pupils) who don’t fit in with the culture he’s trying to achieve – ie inclusion, acceptance yada yada yada. The school is public, and exceeding capacity. More like him would bring the public system back into repute, I reckon!