Alleged Lawson firebug teens nabbed

Ben_Dover said :

ScienceRules said :

My point is that we have a system of courts/justice that, flawed though it may be, is still lightyears better than the reflexive “beat ’em, rape ’em, kill ’em” idiocy that is thrown out time and time again by keyboard heros with an excess of testosterone and insufficient capacity for rational thought.
.

Tell me now, if the general population were satisfied and happy with the alleged “justice” handed down by the ACT and Federal courts, would there be ;

a) More.

b) Less

of the gut reactions we see on this website?

Do you not think its precisely the failures of the justice system which have raise the ire of the general population to the point where normally happy sanguine people find themselves incensed to violent thoughts by the actions of the few?

Do you not think that if the “:justice” system in Australia meted out more punitive punishments, and less of eh sort of ” human rights, social work, counseling, restorative “justice”, slap on the wrist” that we see all too often in Canberra, then people’s level of anger with the way things are would be dramatically reduced?

Do you not think that if instead of condoning the dangerous and deadly activities of utter morons, people thought first about the potential and actual victims of crimes, then less people woudl get irate?

Why not try thinking beyond the superficial.

All said and done without insult.

Ben,

Firstly, you are quite right, civil discourse without insults is far more productive than name-calling. I apologise for my lapse in my original response.

Now, to your points. I can’t say if the general population is happy or otherwise with the justice system and I suspect that you can’t either. Certainly people feel angry and aggrieved (as did I) when callous, unthinking acts such as this are perpetrated but the instinctive call for violent solutions doesn’t serve the community well. I’m pretty sure that none of us want to live in a society where physical retribution is meted out by the state or self-appointed representatives of the state, regardless of how justified we might feel it is at the time.

No, I definately do not think that a more punitive justice system would be more effective. We’ve tried this in the past and countries like the US and dictatorships across the world still practice it and it simply doesn’t work. There needs to be a balance between protecting the community and punishing/rehabilitating offenders.

This case is a good example. As I’ve stated before we don’t know these boys. They might just have done that once in a lifetime mindbogglingly stupid thing that some people (including me) have done. They may be good kids who will benefit from counselling, sensible sanctions and rehabilitation and go on to live productive lives. I’d much prefer that than to chucking them into the criminal cess pit that is AMC or the junior equivalent and creating lifetime hardened crims.

That’s all I’m saying.

Ben_Dover said :

ScienceRules said :

My point is that we have a system of courts/justice that, flawed though it may be, is still lightyears better than the reflexive “beat ’em, rape ’em, kill ’em” idiocy that is thrown out time and time again by keyboard heros with an excess of testosterone and insufficient capacity for rational thought.
.

Tell me now, if the general population were satisfied and happy with the alleged “justice” handed down by the ACT and Federal courts, would there be ;

a) More.

b) Less

of the gut reactions we see on this website?

Do you not think its precisely the failures of the justice system which have raise the ire of the general population to the point where normally happy sanguine people find themselves incensed to violent thoughts by the actions of the few?

Do you not think that if the “:justice” system in Australia meted out more punitive punishments, and less of eh sort of ” human rights, social work, counseling, restorative “justice”, slap on the wrist” that we see all too often in Canberra, then people’s level of anger with the way things are would be dramatically reduced?

Do you not think that if instead of condoning the dangerous and deadly activities of utter morons, people thought first about the potential and actual victims of crimes, then less people woudl get irate?

Why not try thinking beyond the superficial.

All said and done without insult.

The far harsher penalties in the US have not resulted to a reduction in either moral outrage or crime so no, people would get just as irate and self-serving politicians would call for harsher penalties just the same as they do now.

ScienceRules said :

Ben_Dover said :

ScienceRules said :

Which is exactly why we don’t have mob rule. If they were your normally good kids who made a stupid decision and genuinely regret their choice would you still be happy to have some deranged animal beat them senseless to satisfy their base revenge fantasies. Somehow I think not. We left mediaeval concepts of “eye for an eye” and violent retribution behind some time ago thankfully.

My point is that we have a system of courts/justice that, flawed though it may be, is still lightyears better than the reflexive “beat ’em, rape ’em, kill ’em” idiocy that is thrown out time and time again by keyboard heros with an excess of testosterone and insufficient capacity for rational thought.

Feel free to think differently to me, feel free to shout those different opinions into the RA megaphone but expect to have your woeful thought processes pointed out to you when you do. Oh, and fill your boots on insulting me should you feel the need.

So , not even a tiny part of you would entertain the notion that a return to capital punishment would be appropriate if the fire they started wipes out most of a suburb and the inhabitants therein (including all your family)..?

ScienceRules said :

My point is that we have a system of courts/justice that, flawed though it may be, is still lightyears better than the reflexive “beat ’em, rape ’em, kill ’em” idiocy that is thrown out time and time again by keyboard heros with an excess of testosterone and insufficient capacity for rational thought.
.

Tell me now, if the general population were satisfied and happy with the alleged “justice” handed down by the ACT and Federal courts, would there be ;

a) More.

b) Less

of the gut reactions we see on this website?

Do you not think its precisely the failures of the justice system which have raise the ire of the general population to the point where normally happy sanguine people find themselves incensed to violent thoughts by the actions of the few?

Do you not think that if the “:justice” system in Australia meted out more punitive punishments, and less of eh sort of ” human rights, social work, counseling, restorative “justice”, slap on the wrist” that we see all too often in Canberra, then people’s level of anger with the way things are would be dramatically reduced?

Do you not think that if instead of condoning the dangerous and deadly activities of utter morons, people thought first about the potential and actual victims of crimes, then less people woudl get irate?

Why not try thinking beyond the superficial.

All said and done without insult.

tonkatuff82 said :

To be clear, I’m not defending them or their stupid actions, I’m hoping to hold up a very small mirror that may help you see what a ranting pack of froth-mouthed banshees looks like. No doubt I have failed anyway…

I can assure you there is no froth around my mouth when I say that if firebugs were summarily executed there would be less firebugs.

tonkatuff82 said :

And to link it to the death of a poor man in a house fire completely unrelated to this incident or bushfires in general is a fairly long, non-nonsensical bow.

Yes, my reference to Jim’s terrible death on Monday was drawing a bow, but in my view it was a pretty short and sensible bow.

The man was burned to death, and his neighbours heard him screaming as he died. I’d seen him only a few days before, and the thought of that nice old bloke suffering like that makes me sick.

Setting fires under the current conditions could well result in others undergoing a similar appalling fate. The subjects are related, and I stand by what I wrote.

tonkatuff82 said :

Outstanding hand-wringing and extremist responses on this one.
And to link it to the death of a poor man in a house fire completely unrelated to this incident or bushfires in general is a fairly long, non-nonsensical bow.

To be clear, I’m not defending them or their stupid actions, I’m hoping to hold up a very small mirror that may help you see what a ranting pack of froth-mouthed banshees looks like. No doubt I have failed anyway…

You’re obviously new to RiotAct

Ben_Dover said :

ScienceRules said :

You really are a cretin, aren’t you? “A severe kicking”? Really? Maybe an internet hero such as yourself could step forward (perhaps during their court hearing) and state your willingness to apply these barbaric punishments. No? Thought not…

If it had been my family, pets and possessions which had been endangered by these sh!tstains, then I would be first in line to give them a kicking, one which would remain in their minds and bodies for the rest of their wasted lives. I would be happy to do this whether sanctioned by society or not.

I think though it would be more favourable for those endangered to do it.

Do you have any point to make other than to express your sheer horror that someone may think differently to you, and to display your remarkable ineptness at predicting what others may or may not do?

I won’t even bother to insult you.

Which is exactly why we don’t have mob rule. If they were your normally good kids who made a stupid decision and genuinely regret their choice would you still be happy to have some deranged animal beat them senseless to satisfy their base revenge fantasies. Somehow I think not. We left mediaeval concepts of “eye for an eye” and violent retribution behind some time ago thankfully.

My point is that we have a system of courts/justice that, flawed though it may be, is still lightyears better than the reflexive “beat ’em, rape ’em, kill ’em” idiocy that is thrown out time and time again by keyboard heros with an excess of testosterone and insufficient capacity for rational thought.

Feel free to think differently to me, feel free to shout those different opinions into the RA megaphone but expect to have your woeful thought processes pointed out to you when you do. Oh, and fill your boots on insulting me should you feel the need.

“Favelas exploding on inflammable spillways
Lynch-mobs, death squads, babies being born without brains”

so sayeth the messiah

tonkatuff82 said :

Hang on a minute, (I shouldn’t be surprised, I know) isn’t this whole thread an enormous tanty over not much really?

It sounds like (and someone with actual facts please correct me if I’m wrong) two stupid kids in their early teens who obviously have very poor examples for parents tried to light a fire on the worst day to do so in a decade. No mention of an actual fire, to me, says they were inept, half hearted or terribly unlucky in their endeavour, as a decent fart yesterday could have started a blaze.
Stupid? – Yes
Criminal? – Yes
Should they be punished and deterred from ever doing this again? – Yes
Should they have a blowtorch applied to their balls, be lynched etc etc? – Um, not really in my opinion
Should their parents be punished and sterilised? – Ok, I’ll agree with that one, but how many of you are willing to undergo screening before breeding? I bet not many.

Outstanding hand-wringing and extremist responses on this one.
And to link it to the death of a poor man in a house fire completely unrelated to this incident or bushfires in general is a fairly long, non-nonsensical bow.

To be clear, I’m not defending them or their stupid actions, I’m hoping to hold up a very small mirror that may help you see what a ranting pack of froth-mouthed banshees looks like. No doubt I have failed anyway…

Perhaps reading the article would have assisted your interpretations of the events.
The words were “taken into custody after a grass fire was started”, and “two teenagers were seen starting a grass fire”.
IMHO, that means that yes, there was a grass fire.
And yes, some responses may be viewed as being harsh, I personally don’t agree with them being injured for their idiotic efforts, but if you can relate to these two having reasonable need of punishment, you could also understand that people will be quite upset at the deliberate attempt to set a fire amongst the suburbs on the worst possible day of the last four (or more) years for it.

Hang on a minute, (I shouldn’t be surprised, I know) isn’t this whole thread an enormous tanty over not much really?

It sounds like (and someone with actual facts please correct me if I’m wrong) two stupid kids in their early teens who obviously have very poor examples for parents tried to light a fire on the worst day to do so in a decade. No mention of an actual fire, to me, says they were inept, half hearted or terribly unlucky in their endeavour, as a decent fart yesterday could have started a blaze.
Stupid? – Yes
Criminal? – Yes
Should they be punished and deterred from ever doing this again? – Yes
Should they have a blowtorch applied to their balls, be lynched etc etc? – Um, not really in my opinion
Should their parents be punished and sterilised? – Ok, I’ll agree with that one, but how many of you are willing to undergo screening before breeding? I bet not many.

Outstanding hand-wringing and extremist responses on this one.
And to link it to the death of a poor man in a house fire completely unrelated to this incident or bushfires in general is a fairly long, non-nonsensical bow.

To be clear, I’m not defending them or their stupid actions, I’m hoping to hold up a very small mirror that may help you see what a ranting pack of froth-mouthed banshees looks like. No doubt I have failed anyway…

Chop71 said :

Approx 220 years ago these kiddies may have had their hands chopped off or worse …….

sent to Australia.

well aren’t they the lucky ones now??

Postalgeek said :

Notice to all villagers:

Please bring pitchforks only. Do not bring burning torches to anti-arsonist rallies during a total fire ban.

Best comment of 2013…

ScienceRules said :

You really are a cretin, aren’t you? “A severe kicking”? Really? Maybe an internet hero such as yourself could step forward (perhaps during their court hearing) and state your willingness to apply these barbaric punishments. No? Thought not…

If it had been my family, pets and possessions which had been endangered by these sh!tstains, then I would be first in line to give them a kicking, one which would remain in their minds and bodies for the rest of their wasted lives. I would be happy to do this whether sanctioned by society or not.

I think though it would be more favourable for those endangered to do it.

Do you have any point to make other than to express your sheer horror that someone may think differently to you, and to display your remarkable ineptness at predicting what others may or may not do?

I won’t even bother to insult you.

Approx 220 years ago these kiddies may have had their hands chopped off or worse …….

sent to Australia.

Postalgeek said :

Notice to all villagers:

Please bring pitchforks only. Do not bring burning torches to anti-arsonist rallies during a total fire ban.

give that man a biscuit.

Notice to all villagers:

Please bring pitchforks only. Do not bring burning torches to anti-arsonist rallies during a total fire ban.

Ben_Dover said :

bundah said :

Let me play devil’s advocate and ask all rioters to remind themselves of what they actually comprehended at 13/14 years of age.Did you all fully understand the consequences of your actions,in fact,how many of you even understand that now as mature adults?

Would I have understood that starting fires for fun during the current emergency was a bad thing to do, and may have potential catastrophic consequences at age 13? Yes I would have.
Don’t judge everyone by your own IQ.

If they really didn’t understand the seriousness of what they were doing, it’s therefore going to take a severe kicking to get the information into their thick skulls.

You really are a cretin, aren’t you? “A severe kicking”? Really? Maybe an internet hero such as yourself could step forward (perhaps during their court hearing) and state your willingness to apply these barbaric punishments. No? Thought not…

bundah said :

Let me play devil’s advocate and ask all rioters to remind themselves of what they actually comprehended at 13/14 years of age.Did you all fully understand the consequences of your actions,in fact,how many of you even understand that now as mature adults?The reality is that there are parents who are incapable of guiding and disciplining their children and effectively create little bastards who are more likely to become anti-social monsters.Locking them up and throwing away the key as some of you have intimated is all a little too late after the event particularly at that age.There is no doubt in my mind that society’s do gooders have exacerbated the problem with their naive thinking and actions.

Of course I knew not to commit crime at that age. Most kids do. It’s the kids that don’t understand this that are the anomalies, which is why action is needed.

bundah said :

Let me play devil’s advocate and ask all rioters to remind themselves of what they actually comprehended at 13/14 years of age.Did you all fully understand the consequences of your actions,in fact,how many of you even understand that now as mature adults? Locking them up and throwing away the key as some of you have intimated is all a little too late after the event particularly at that age.

Are you suggesting we lock them up before they’ve done any damage? Wow, that’s a bit harsh.

@ Ben_Dover

The fact that i have a high IQ is precisely what enables me to glean information that explains why these scenarios occur.Giving them a severe kicking is all well and good after the event however the focus needs to be on prevention and clearly we,as a society,have failed particularly as the do gooders are largely setting the tempo and cracking the whip.

bundah said :

Let me play devil’s advocate and ask all rioters to remind themselves of what they actually comprehended at 13/14 years of age.Did you all fully understand the consequences of your actions,in fact,how many of you even understand that now as mature adults?The reality is that there are parents who are incapable of guiding and disciplining their children and effectively create little bastards who are more likely to become anti-social monsters.Locking them up and throwing away the key as some of you have intimated is all a little too late after the event particularly at that age.There is no doubt in my mind that society’s do gooders have exacerbated the problem with their naive thinking and actions.

I agree with your last comment. And as much as it irks me, day after day I see more evidence that people ought to be given a licence to breed.

bundah said :

Let me play devil’s advocate and ask all rioters to remind themselves of what they actually comprehended at 13/14 years of age.Did you all fully understand the consequences of your actions,in fact,how many of you even understand that now as mature adults?

Would I have understood that starting fires for fun during the current emergency was a bad thing to do, and may have potential catastrophic consequences at age 13? Yes I would have.
Don’t judge everyone by your own IQ.

If they really didn’t understand the seriousness of what they were doing, it’s therefore going to take a severe kicking to get the information into their thick skulls.

The Frots said :

Take everything thats dear to them, computers, TV from their rooms, cell phone, clothes – simply empty their rooms total out into the middle of their street. Beds, furniture – everything.

Then set fire to it as they watch.

Let them sleep on the bare floor, have only the clothes they are wearing until ‘they’ can get new ones, let them see how it feels. Absolute dogs!!

+1
Gold !!!
LIKE!!!

Let me play devil’s advocate and ask all rioters to remind themselves of what they actually comprehended at 13/14 years of age.Did you all fully understand the consequences of your actions,in fact,how many of you even understand that now as mature adults?The reality is that there are parents who are incapable of guiding and disciplining their children and effectively create little bastards who are more likely to become anti-social monsters.Locking them up and throwing away the key as some of you have intimated is all a little too late after the event particularly at that age.There is no doubt in my mind that society’s do gooders have exacerbated the problem with their naive thinking and actions.

Girt_Hindrance said :

farnarkler said :

Restorative justice? What exactly is that? They should be locked up for a decade.

Restorative Justice is basically where they are put in a room in a friendly round circle with people who were either victims of their crime or in this case may have been affected (and possibly some that have been victims of the outcome of similar behaviours), to be confronted on the effects of the behaviour that these two allegedly engaged in. In line with “When you started those fires, they came stomping into my house, my Grandmother couldn’t escape in time and we lost her and everything that we had worked a lifetime to build… Since then we’ve never managed to relax in Summertime, anytime we hear a siren, smell smoke etc”…
If there are tears on behalf of the person who committed the crime, then they’re rehabilitated.

Frankly, whether it works or to is really down to the family. Decent families will be shocked at their kids having any interaction with the police, will be terrified of the matter going any further and will put tremendous pressure on the boys to take the whole restorative justice thing seriously and keep the hell out of trouble. Consequences at home will amplify the seriousness of the matter and there’ll be a decent chance that the kids will get scared straight.

However if the family are drop-kicks who simply treat the whole thing as a pain in the ass that takes them away from their drink, smokes and TV, then you can be sure that we’ll be hearing about these boys again over the coming years.

KeenGolfer said :

Girt_Hindrance said :

I hope ‘reckless endangerment’ or even ‘attempted grievous bodily harm’ are mentioned on the list of charges, but I honestly doubt they would be, how could we expect the Law Courts of Canberra to enforce societal expectations against the actions of these two little shites?
The worst thing they’ll face would be a contempt of court charge if they abuse the magistrate.

What charges? They will undergo restorative justice (RJ) as the press release states. Only if they don’t complete the RJ program will they potentially face charges. The RJ program is used for children who are first time offenders, hopefully to get them back on track and keep them out of future trouble and the courts.

http://www.police.act.gov.au/crime-and-safety/programs/restorative-justice-conferencing

Yep, you’re right, and my second comment took a little longer to be posted. In previous employment (residential care youth work) I took supported several youths through the process, and it always involved the affected parties reaching out to do what they could to assist the realignment to the ‘straight and narrow’. After the conferences, the youths would brag to others about ‘getting off’ and promptly continue their downward spiral.

Maybe next time there’ll be charges then.

Lillypilly said :

Compulsory 100 hours of community service in Canberra hospital’s burn unit. Then they’ll see how “cool” it is.

However, the burns patients might not want them there. They’d just be in the way, too. I really don’t know what should be done here. Do the processes outlined at #12 work? How do we know?

Tetranitrate said :

How_Canberran said :

C’mon people, this criminal act is yet another classic Canberran ‘cry for help’.

It should really be up to the greater Canberra community to mete out appropriate ‘restorative justice’.

How Canberran.

Are you ever going to get tired of posting your retarded little catchphrase?

Thank you. It was beginning to grate.

In the light of the fact that on Monday a decent man of my acquaintance was burned to death in Watson, I’m not feeling a whole helluva lot of sympathy for these little arsehats.

The actions of some people really are incomprehensible.

How_Canberran said :

C’mon people, this criminal act is yet another classic Canberran ‘cry for help’.

It should really be up to the greater Canberra community to mete out appropriate ‘restorative justice’.

How Canberran.

Are you ever going to get tired of posting your retarded little catchphrase?

The Frots said :

Take everything thats dear to them, computers, TV from their rooms, cell phone, clothes – simply empty their rooms total out into the middle of their street. Beds, furniture – everything.

Then set fire to it as they watch.

Let them sleep on the bare floor, have only the clothes they are wearing until ‘they’ can get new ones, let them see how it feels. Absolute dogs!!

Exactly what I was thinking when I read the news.

Girt_Hindrance said :

I hope ‘reckless endangerment’ or even ‘attempted grievous bodily harm’ are mentioned on the list of charges, but I honestly doubt they would be, how could we expect the Law Courts of Canberra to enforce societal expectations against the actions of these two little shites?
The worst thing they’ll face would be a contempt of court charge if they abuse the magistrate.

What charges? They will undergo restorative justice (RJ) as the press release states. Only if they don’t complete the RJ program will they potentially face charges. The RJ program is used for children who are first time offenders, hopefully to get them back on track and keep them out of future trouble and the courts.

http://www.police.act.gov.au/crime-and-safety/programs/restorative-justice-conferencing

farnarkler said :

Restorative justice? What exactly is that? They should be locked up for a decade.

Restorative Justice is basically where they are put in a room in a friendly round circle with people who were either victims of their crime or in this case may have been affected (and possibly some that have been victims of the outcome of similar behaviours), to be confronted on the effects of the behaviour that these two allegedly engaged in. In line with “When you started those fires, they came stomping into my house, my Grandmother couldn’t escape in time and we lost her and everything that we had worked a lifetime to build… Since then we’ve never managed to relax in Summertime, anytime we hear a siren, smell smoke etc”…
If there are tears on behalf of the person who committed the crime, then they’re rehabilitated.

I hope ‘reckless endangerment’ or even ‘attempted grievous bodily harm’ are mentioned on the list of charges, but I honestly doubt they would be, how could we expect the Law Courts of Canberra to enforce societal expectations against the actions of these two little shites?
The worst thing they’ll face would be a contempt of court charge if they abuse the magistrate.

Take everything thats dear to them, computers, TV from their rooms, cell phone, clothes – simply empty their rooms total out into the middle of their street. Beds, furniture – everything.

Then set fire to it as they watch.

Let them sleep on the bare floor, have only the clothes they are wearing until ‘they’ can get new ones, let them see how it feels. Absolute dogs!!

Drag these two scum-sucking s***bags out to the whipping post!- how many times do i need to shout that from the rooftops?

Unbelievable

Lillypilly said :

Compulsory 100 hours of community service in Canberra hospital’s burn unit. Then they’ll see how “cool” it is.

I was thinking 100 years would be more fitting for these arse wipes

Lillypilly said :

Compulsory 100 hours of community service in Canberra hospital’s burn unit. Then they’ll see how “cool” it is.

Without my glasses I read that as “bum” unit, either way, what a pair of arseholes.

C’mon people, this criminal act is yet another classic Canberran ‘cry for help’.

It should really be up to the greater Canberra community to mete out appropriate ‘restorative justice’.

How Canberran.

Restorative justice? What exactly is that? They should be locked up for a decade.

Compulsory 100 hours of community service in Canberra hospital’s burn unit. Then they’ll see how “cool” it is.

Does this restorative justice process involve putting a blow-torch to their balls. It’s just sick that we have to have Police guarding National Parks because of people like this.